Re: Small camara

[Albert Homburwas]

I read that over in England they got some kind of board that you just plug
in and you have free internet. Can some Brit expand on this ?

Thanks


"Chris Taylor Jr" <nospam@nerys.com> wrote in message
news:_nCG9.940$9c.100952@news2.voicenet.com...
> > Striped modems (ganged modems) are the cost of 4 live lines. About $120
> > per month. You still need an ISP.
>
> What is your point ? this requires a minimum $15 per line account for each
> line AND a SEPERATE dial up account for EACH modem and most only handle
> shotgun style connection (2 modems) and they are not stringed just
parellel.
> so you get 2 3-6k downloads NOT a single 6-12k connection.
>
> so you would be paying at least $60 a month for 3-6k per second with 2
> pipes. (downloads would be 0% faster web page loading would be slight
faster
> "maybe")
>
> > Cablemodem averages about $45/mo
>
> but not commonly available as you #1 have to have cable in your area and
#2
> they have to perform some VERY expensive upgrades hence why most of the
> smaller cable providers do NOT offer it.
>
> > DSL averages about $55/mo
>
> Yes $40 to $80 for ADSL over $100 for SDSL which you will need if you want
> to exceed 18,000 feet to the CO. and even then 40k is your max
>
> > Satellite averages about $95/mo
>
> PLUS the $250 to $500 in satellite equipment that you almost always have
to
> BUY
>
> > ISDN averages about $100/mo
>
> if your lucky. Most isdn service you still have to pay per minute AND the
> isp charges are usually higher. I have seen people bloe $75 to $300 a
month
> on ISDN
>
> > T1 averages about $1000/mo (800-1600)
>
> partial t's maybe ? but I thought a full T1 was quite a bit more ?? could
be
> wrong (or out of date I am thinking from a few years ago)
>
> > Straight dial-up prices are skewed by AOL but there are PLENTY of ISP's
> > for under $10/mo and many more at under $20/mo (modem).
>
> GOOD dial ups are $20 a month. most (not all just most) of the $10 isps
are
> just that $10 isp's and you get what you pay for.
>
> More than $20 is a rip. (hear that earthlink and aol)
>
> Chris Taylor
> http://www.nerys.com/
>
>

[The Natural Philosopher]

Jerry Irvine wrote:

> In article <3ixG9.262628$fa.5254308@twister.tampabay.rr.com>,
> "BK" <none@none.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
>>>
>>ADSL.
>>
>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Via satellite yes. Only recently.
>
> "everyone" has access to T1 as well if they have a landline. At some
> cost :)


Nope. Over here its E1 :-)

At a cost to make your eyes water.


>
> Jerry
>
>

[The Natural Philosopher]

Chris Taylor Jr wrote:

> He is correct. EVERYONE has access.
>
> What you and I want is PRACTICAL access.
>
> sure if you want to pay upwards of $2,000 to $10,000 a month SURE you too
> can have a T1 :-)
>


In the UK, you could get it fort less than that, BUT its likley the
telco would not spend money digging up the ground to lay a fiibre pipe
the last 5 miles, but would use a microwave link instead...and hey
presto, falling leaves, birds, rain, etc. etc.=packet loss.

Eventually DSL will get to everybody, but over here at least, we still
have overhead power distribution - and that gets taken out every storm.
Of course in thinly disguised 3rd world countries like the USA overhead
power distribution at street level is the norm in many areas, but we
can't all make progress....:-)


> Chris Taylor
> http://www.nerys.com/
>
> "Bob Cowell" <trash_trap@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:vobluu0gmbsapcpn1egetvloenpacce8eg@4ax.com...
>
>>BULLSHIT
>>not EVERY in america has access to highspeed access.
>>I have been begging and trying for years to get SOMETHING faster than
>>
> dialup,
>
>>but since I do not live in the "right" area, NO GO
>>
>>On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:53:35 GMT, "BK" <none@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
>>>>
>>>ADSL.
>>>
>>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[The Natural Philosopher]

Chris Taylor Jr wrote:


>>ISDN averages about $100/mo
>>
>
> if your lucky. Most isdn service you still have to pay per minute AND the
> isp charges are usually higher. I have seen people bloe $75 to $300 a month
> on ISDN
>


Yup. I finally got unlimited phone call access for a total including
line rental of around $100 per year. Plus the ISP service its around
$1500-$1800 per year. Its twice as fast as teh modem was and about 10
times more reliable - auto dial-and-drop using a Cisco router..


>
>>T1 averages about $1000/mo (800-1600)
>>
>
> partial t's maybe ? but I thought a full T1 was quite a bit more ?? could be
> wrong (or out of date I am thinking from a few years ago)
>


E1 here - 2Mbps - costs about $8-10,000 p.a., but the line to your home
would be of similar costs. Call it $16000-$20000 p.a. Fractional E1's
are in the $8-10k range for 'rural' locations.



>
>>Straight dial-up prices are skewed by AOL but there are PLENTY of ISP's
>>for under $10/mo and many more at under $20/mo (modem).
>>
>
> GOOD dial ups are $20 a month. most (not all just most) of the $10 isps are
> just that $10 isp's and you get what you pay for.
>
> More than $20 is a rip. (hear that earthlink and aol)


Internet IS expensive, but in my case I use it slightly more than I use
a car. Running each car costs about $6000 p.a. doing it the
'accountants' way - i.e. amortising depreciation, and all costs into the
annualised mileage.

To be fair, the internet has probably saved me around $100k over the
last two years, in terms of access to information and prices.

I think the real point is that 'toy' internet is finsished.

If you want the quality and the bandwidth you gotta pay for it.


I am prepared to pay over $2000 p.a., but not yet $10,000 p.a.

As far as the orginal issue went, yes, anybody who writes websites with
microsoft tools should be condemned to rewrite Windows in Assembler,
using only a modem to access the compiler...Its siomply pure bad design
to design sites that only work over high speed links, espefcially if a
large part of your target market doesn't have that access for very
sensible reasons.

If I come up with a site full of flashy graphics that doesn't load in
under 30 seconds, I go somewhere ease. With luck all such sites will
wither and die.

And the companies that wrote them as well.




>
> Chris Taylor
> http://www.nerys.com/
>
>
>

[Darren J Longhorn]

On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 09:29:57 GMT, "Albert Homburwas" <nonoe@nonr.com>
wrote:

>I read that over in England they got some kind of board that you just plug
>in and you have free internet. Can some Brit expand on this ?

A board that plugs in to what? I don't know of _any_ totally free
internet over here.


--
Darren J Longhorn http://www.geocities.com/darrenlonghorn/
NSRG #005 http://www.northstarrocketry.org.uk/
UKRA #1094 L2 RSO http://www.ukra.org.uk/

[Nick M.V.Salmon]

"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3DEB3E30.4020700@b.c...
[....]
> As far as the orginal issue went, yes, anybody who writes websites with
> microsoft tools should be condemned to rewrite Windows in Assembler,
> using only a modem to access the compiler...Its siomply pure bad design
> to design sites that only work over high speed links, espefcially if a
> large part of your target market doesn't have that access for very
> sensible reasons.
[....]

Chinese water torture by another name. <LOL> I love it. :-)

+++

One of the main reasons I still visit r.m.r.heli two years after my last
(real) flight are the good belly laughs from various posters, thankyou
Beavis EtAl for bringing a little sunshine into otherwise dreary days. :-)

Ciao...

[UK]_Nick...
--
Nick M.V.Salmon Master Mariner MN(Retd.)

My four initials@btinternet.com to reply direct

[Chris Taylor Jr]

Well I have to slightly disagree here.

I use 2 programs primarily for html writing and that is Front Page and
Notepad. both microsoft apps :-)

I always "create" the pages in frontpage and edit in notepad.

Frontpage is one of those oddities from microsoft. it actually doesn't suck
and each version really is significantly better than the last.

NOW I do not use Frontpage stuff. I am not into java/forms (fp specific)/fp
extensions etc..

I do primarily straight HTML. and I also very much like using Tables for
formatting.

I have some pages with many layers of nested tables. tables are universal so
I can be rest assured what my page looks like on my screen is what it will
look like in all windows browsers. all mac broswers all linux browsers etc..
etc..

Tables are a total pain in the ass to mess with in straight code. FP allows
very nice wysiwyg editing and it is very accurate.

ODDLY at the heat of the browser wars the then Front page actually showed a
display close in accuracy to what you would get in netscape and not in ie !!
(some things "space" a little different in the browsers of the time such as
the vertical and side spacing of form buttons etc..)

so I would generate my pages in frontpage but after that opening fp just to
make slight changes of add images etc.. was tedious so notepad ruled.

I started with notepad and still find it one of the most powerful html
tools. Fast and effecient. F3 find function works great and is again fast.

I also love the "web" function in fp. I really need to start using it again.
it is awesome. I can change something on one page and it will go find it on
all other pages and change them accordingly.

It spell checks :-) something I really need to use :-) and it will hunt down
dead links. I can move fiels and folders around and or rename files and
stuff and it will make all the needed alterations to any html referencing
those names for me.

Alas time is an issue. you will notice that most of my website has not be
updated in quite a long time :-) many parts in YEARS.

I am thinking of just whacking it and starting over but its sooo many pages.
sooo much work. I ahve pages on everything !! :-)

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/


> As far as the orginal issue went, yes, anybody who writes websites with
> microsoft tools should be condemned to rewrite Windows in Assembler,
> using only a modem to access the compiler...Its siomply pure bad design
> to design sites that only work over high speed links, espefcially if a
> large part of your target market doesn't have that access for very
> sensible reasons.
>
> If I come up with a site full of flashy graphics that doesn't load in
> under 30 seconds, I go somewhere ease. With luck all such sites will
> wither and die.
>
> And the companies that wrote them as well.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Chris Taylor
> > http://www.nerys.com/
> >
> >
> >
>

[Herb Winston]

The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:

"overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
when I've last seen that here.

--
Herb Winston AMA 50438
Bonita Springs, FL

"He may look like an idiot,
and he may sound like an idiot,
but don't let him fool you.
He really is an idiot."

Mark Twain
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3DEB3B4F.70409@b.c...


Chris Taylor Jr wrote:

> He is correct. EVERYONE has access.
>
> What you and I want is PRACTICAL access.
>
> sure if you want to pay upwards of $2,000 to $10,000 a month SURE you too
> can have a T1 :-)
>


In the UK, you could get it fort less than that, BUT its likley the
telco would not spend money digging up the ground to lay a fiibre pipe
the last 5 miles, but would use a microwave link instead...and hey
presto, falling leaves, birds, rain, etc. etc.=packet loss.

Eventually DSL will get to everybody, but over here at least, we still
have overhead power distribution - and that gets taken out every storm.
Of course in thinly disguised 3rd world countries like the USA overhead
power distribution at street level is the norm in many areas, but we
can't all make progress....:-)


> Chris Taylor
> http://www.nerys.com/
>
> "Bob Cowell" <trash_trap@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:vobluu0gmbsapcpn1egetvloenpacce8eg@4ax.com...
>
>>BULLSHIT
>>not EVERY in america has access to highspeed access.
>>I have been begging and trying for years to get SOMETHING faster than
>>
> dialup,
>
>>but since I do not live in the "right" area, NO GO
>>
>>On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:53:35 GMT, "BK" <none@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
>>>>
>>>ADSL.
>>>
>>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Steve Ritchie]

The Natural Philosopher wrote in message ...
> As far as the orginal issue went, yes, anybody who writes websites with
> microsoft tools should be condemned to rewrite Windows in Assembler,
> using only a modem to access the compiler...Its siomply pure bad design
> to design sites that only work over high speed links, espefcially if a
> large part of your target market doesn't have that access for very
> sensible reasons.

THE PROBLEM is not with the HTML or the program used to design the website,
but with the huge image sizes on the page, which with a 56K modem take
forever to download.

The small images only need to be about 3K and if I recall some were about
20K or bigger. It's the designers lack of understanding of the "Save images
for web use" with their photos.

But for that the site would load more quickly.

[David Smith]

"ROTOR BLADE" <Roto@golden.net> wrote in message
news:vGKG9.997$2S1.283777@news20.bellglobal.com...
> What's all this internet connection crap to do with watercraft anyways?


About as much as it has to do with RC helicopters!

--
Dave S, Kuusankoski, Finland.

My return address requires modification before use.
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/david.smith/helicopters/


> "Albert Homburwas" <nonoe@nonr.com> wrote in message
> news:pKFG9.52446$kz4.2615484@news2.west.cox.net...
> > I read that over in England they got some kind of board that you just
plug
> > in and you have free internet. Can some Brit expand on this ?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > "Chris Taylor Jr" <nospam@nerys.com> wrote in message
> > news:_nCG9.940$9c.100952@news2.voicenet.com...
> > > > Striped modems (ganged modems) are the cost of 4 live lines. About
> $120
> > > > per month. You still need an ISP.
> > >
> > > What is your point ? this requires a minimum $15 per line account for
> each
> > > line AND a SEPERATE dial up account for EACH modem and most only
handle
> > > shotgun style connection (2 modems) and they are not stringed just
> > parellel.
> > > so you get 2 3-6k downloads NOT a single 6-12k connection.
> > >
> > > so you would be paying at least $60 a month for 3-6k per second with 2
> > > pipes. (downloads would be 0% faster web page loading would be slight
> > faster
> > > "maybe")
> > >
> > > > Cablemodem averages about $45/mo
> > >
> > > but not commonly available as you #1 have to have cable in your area
and
> > #2
> > > they have to perform some VERY expensive upgrades hence why most of
the
> > > smaller cable providers do NOT offer it.
> > >
> > > > DSL averages about $55/mo
> > >
> > > Yes $40 to $80 for ADSL over $100 for SDSL which you will need if you
> want
> > > to exceed 18,000 feet to the CO. and even then 40k is your max
> > >
> > > > Satellite averages about $95/mo
> > >
> > > PLUS the $250 to $500 in satellite equipment that you almost always
have
> > to
> > > BUY
> > >
> > > > ISDN averages about $100/mo
> > >
> > > if your lucky. Most isdn service you still have to pay per minute AND
> the
> > > isp charges are usually higher. I have seen people bloe $75 to $300 a
> > month
> > > on ISDN
> > >
> > > > T1 averages about $1000/mo (800-1600)
> > >
> > > partial t's maybe ? but I thought a full T1 was quite a bit more ??
> could
> > be
> > > wrong (or out of date I am thinking from a few years ago)
> > >
> > > > Straight dial-up prices are skewed by AOL but there are PLENTY of
> ISP's
> > > > for under $10/mo and many more at under $20/mo (modem).
> > >
> > > GOOD dial ups are $20 a month. most (not all just most) of the $10
isps
> > are
> > > just that $10 isp's and you get what you pay for.
> > >
> > > More than $20 is a rip. (hear that earthlink and aol)
> > >
> > > Chris Taylor
> > > http://www.nerys.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[The Natural Philosopher]

Herb Winston wrote:

> The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
>
> "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> when I've last seen that here.


Howdy. Wondered if you snap at that.

Try going fer a walk outside the city sometime.


>
>

[ROTOR BLADE]

What's all this internet connection crap to do with watercraft anyways?
"Albert Homburwas" <nonoe@nonr.com> wrote in message
news:pKFG9.52446$kz4.2615484@news2.west.cox.net...
> I read that over in England they got some kind of board that you just plug
> in and you have free internet. Can some Brit expand on this ?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> "Chris Taylor Jr" <nospam@nerys.com> wrote in message
> news:_nCG9.940$9c.100952@news2.voicenet.com...
> > > Striped modems (ganged modems) are the cost of 4 live lines. About
$120
> > > per month. You still need an ISP.
> >
> > What is your point ? this requires a minimum $15 per line account for
each
> > line AND a SEPERATE dial up account for EACH modem and most only handle
> > shotgun style connection (2 modems) and they are not stringed just
> parellel.
> > so you get 2 3-6k downloads NOT a single 6-12k connection.
> >
> > so you would be paying at least $60 a month for 3-6k per second with 2
> > pipes. (downloads would be 0% faster web page loading would be slight
> faster
> > "maybe")
> >
> > > Cablemodem averages about $45/mo
> >
> > but not commonly available as you #1 have to have cable in your area and
> #2
> > they have to perform some VERY expensive upgrades hence why most of the
> > smaller cable providers do NOT offer it.
> >
> > > DSL averages about $55/mo
> >
> > Yes $40 to $80 for ADSL over $100 for SDSL which you will need if you
want
> > to exceed 18,000 feet to the CO. and even then 40k is your max
> >
> > > Satellite averages about $95/mo
> >
> > PLUS the $250 to $500 in satellite equipment that you almost always have
> to
> > BUY
> >
> > > ISDN averages about $100/mo
> >
> > if your lucky. Most isdn service you still have to pay per minute AND
the
> > isp charges are usually higher. I have seen people bloe $75 to $300 a
> month
> > on ISDN
> >
> > > T1 averages about $1000/mo (800-1600)
> >
> > partial t's maybe ? but I thought a full T1 was quite a bit more ??
could
> be
> > wrong (or out of date I am thinking from a few years ago)
> >
> > > Straight dial-up prices are skewed by AOL but there are PLENTY of
ISP's
> > > for under $10/mo and many more at under $20/mo (modem).
> >
> > GOOD dial ups are $20 a month. most (not all just most) of the $10 isps
> are
> > just that $10 isp's and you get what you pay for.
> >
> > More than $20 is a rip. (hear that earthlink and aol)
> >
> > Chris Taylor
> > http://www.nerys.com/
> >
> >
>
>

[kallend]

Herb Winston wrote:
>
> The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
>
> "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> when I've last seen that here.
>

Come to Chicago.


> --
> Herb Winston AMA 50438
> Bonita Springs, FL
>
> "He may look like an idiot,
> and he may sound like an idiot,
> but don't let him fool you.
> He really is an idiot."
>
> Mark Twain
> "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:3DEB3B4F.70409@b.c...
>
> Chris Taylor Jr wrote:
>
> > He is correct. EVERYONE has access.
> >
> > What you and I want is PRACTICAL access.
> >
> > sure if you want to pay upwards of $2,000 to $10,000 a month SURE you too
> > can have a T1 :-)
> >
>
> In the UK, you could get it fort less than that, BUT its likley the
> telco would not spend money digging up the ground to lay a fiibre pipe
> the last 5 miles, but would use a microwave link instead...and hey
> presto, falling leaves, birds, rain, etc. etc.=packet loss.
>
> Eventually DSL will get to everybody, but over here at least, we still
> have overhead power distribution - and that gets taken out every storm.
> Of course in thinly disguised 3rd world countries like the USA overhead
> power distribution at street level is the norm in many areas, but we
> can't all make progress....:-)
>
> > Chris Taylor
> > http://www.nerys.com/
> >
> > "Bob Cowell" <trash_trap@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:vobluu0gmbsapcpn1egetvloenpacce8eg@4ax.com...
> >
> >>BULLSHIT
> >>not EVERY in america has access to highspeed access.
> >>I have been begging and trying for years to get SOMETHING faster than
> >>
> > dialup,
> >
> >>but since I do not live in the "right" area, NO GO
> >>
> >>On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:53:35 GMT, "BK" <none@none.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
> >>>>
> >>>ADSL.
> >>>
> >>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >

[Bob Kaplow]

In article <3ixG9.262628$fa.5254308@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, "BK" <none@none.com> writes:
>> No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
> ADSL.
>
> Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...

How so? There are many areas not able to get any form of DSL, and don't
have cable either.

Satellite dish? There are several things that don't work over a dish, and
your performance is VERY asymmetric, so you can't put a web server at the
end of a satellite link. Or do VPN, most gaming, and a few other things.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://www.pleimling.org/le/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org

26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy
Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it
with religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal

[Albert Homburwas]

BULLSHIT

ISDN $29,99/mo
Cable Modem $10/mo


"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3DEB3E30.4020700@b.c...
>
>
> Chris Taylor Jr wrote:
>
>
> >>ISDN averages about $100/mo
> >>
> >
> > if your lucky. Most isdn service you still have to pay per minute AND
the
> > isp charges are usually higher. I have seen people bloe $75 to $300 a
month
> > on ISDN
> >
>
>
> Yup. I finally got unlimited phone call access for a total including
> line rental of around $100 per year. Plus the ISP service its around
> $1500-$1800 per year. Its twice as fast as teh modem was and about 10
> times more reliable - auto dial-and-drop using a Cisco router..
>
>
> >
> >>T1 averages about $1000/mo (800-1600)
> >>
> >
> > partial t's maybe ? but I thought a full T1 was quite a bit more ??
could be
> > wrong (or out of date I am thinking from a few years ago)
> >
>
>
> E1 here - 2Mbps - costs about $8-10,000 p.a., but the line to your home
> would be of similar costs. Call it $16000-$20000 p.a. Fractional E1's
> are in the $8-10k range for 'rural' locations.
>
>
>
> >
> >>Straight dial-up prices are skewed by AOL but there are PLENTY of ISP's
> >>for under $10/mo and many more at under $20/mo (modem).
> >>
> >
> > GOOD dial ups are $20 a month. most (not all just most) of the $10 isps
are
> > just that $10 isp's and you get what you pay for.
> >
> > More than $20 is a rip. (hear that earthlink and aol)
>
>
> Internet IS expensive, but in my case I use it slightly more than I use
> a car. Running each car costs about $6000 p.a. doing it the
> 'accountants' way - i.e. amortising depreciation, and all costs into the
> annualised mileage.
>
> To be fair, the internet has probably saved me around $100k over the
> last two years, in terms of access to information and prices.
>
> I think the real point is that 'toy' internet is finsished.
>
> If you want the quality and the bandwidth you gotta pay for it.
>
>
> I am prepared to pay over $2000 p.a., but not yet $10,000 p.a.
>
> As far as the orginal issue went, yes, anybody who writes websites with
> microsoft tools should be condemned to rewrite Windows in Assembler,
> using only a modem to access the compiler...Its siomply pure bad design
> to design sites that only work over high speed links, espefcially if a
> large part of your target market doesn't have that access for very
> sensible reasons.
>
> If I come up with a site full of flashy graphics that doesn't load in
> under 30 seconds, I go somewhere ease. With luck all such sites will
> wither and die.
>
> And the companies that wrote them as well.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Chris Taylor
> > http://www.nerys.com/
> >
> >
> >
>

[Albert Homburwas]

That's because you're so old you can't tilt your head to that view



"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3DEB8260.3070804@b.c...
>
>
> Herb Winston wrote:
>
> > The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
> >
> > "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> > when I've last seen that here.
>
>
> Howdy. Wondered if you snap at that.
>
> Try going fer a walk outside the city sometime.
>
>
> >
> >
>

[Future Shock]

On 2-Dec-2002, "Chris Taylor Jr" <nospam@nerys.com> wrote:

> Well I have to slightly disagree here.
>
> I use 2 programs primarily for html writing and that is Front Page and
> Notepad. both microsoft apps :-)
>
> I always "create" the pages in frontpage and edit in notepad.
>
> Frontpage is one of those oddities from microsoft. it actually doesn't
> suck
> and each version really is significantly better than the last.


That's because M$ didn't actually write the basis for FrontPage - they
bought the codebase from another tool vendor, same as they did for IE, same
as they did for SQL Server (which started life as the Sybase 2.4 codebase).
Notice how each of these tools isn't THAT bad...it's only what they write
from scratch that is really piggish...

FS

[Herb Winston]

Been there, done that. Nada.

--
Herb Winston AMA 50438
Bonita Springs, FL

"He may look like an idiot,
and he may sound like an idiot,
but don't let him fool you.
He really is an idiot."

Mark Twain
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3DEB8260.3070804@b.c...


Herb Winston wrote:

> The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
>
> "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> when I've last seen that here.


Howdy. Wondered if you snap at that.

Try going fer a walk outside the city sometime.


>
>

[Herb Winston]

Nope.

--
Herb Winston AMA 50438
Bonita Springs, FL

"He may look like an idiot,
and he may sound like an idiot,
but don't let him fool you.
He really is an idiot."

Mark Twain
"Albert Homburwas" <nonoe@nonr.com> wrote in message
news:o8NG9.55553$kz4.2711627@news2.west.cox.net...
That's because you're so old you can't tilt your head to that view



"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:3DEB8260.3070804@b.c...
>
>
> Herb Winston wrote:
>
> > The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
> >
> > "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> > when I've last seen that here.
>
>
> Howdy. Wondered if you snap at that.
>
> Try going fer a walk outside the city sometime.
>
>
> >
> >
>

[Herb Winston]

No thanks.

--
Herb Winston AMA 50438
Bonita Springs, FL

"He may look like an idiot,
and he may sound like an idiot,
but don't let him fool you.
He really is an idiot."

Mark Twain
"kallend" <kallend@iit.edu> wrote in message
news:3DEB969E.6034B64D@iit.edu...


Herb Winston wrote:
>
> The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
>
> "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> when I've last seen that here.
>

Come to Chicago.


> --
> Herb Winston AMA 50438
> Bonita Springs, FL
>
> "He may look like an idiot,
> and he may sound like an idiot,
> but don't let him fool you.
> He really is an idiot."
>
> Mark Twain
> "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:3DEB3B4F.70409@b.c...
>
> Chris Taylor Jr wrote:
>
> > He is correct. EVERYONE has access.
> >
> > What you and I want is PRACTICAL access.
> >
> > sure if you want to pay upwards of $2,000 to $10,000 a month SURE you
too
> > can have a T1 :-)
> >
>
> In the UK, you could get it fort less than that, BUT its likley the
> telco would not spend money digging up the ground to lay a fiibre pipe
> the last 5 miles, but would use a microwave link instead...and hey
> presto, falling leaves, birds, rain, etc. etc.=packet loss.
>
> Eventually DSL will get to everybody, but over here at least, we still
> have overhead power distribution - and that gets taken out every storm.
> Of course in thinly disguised 3rd world countries like the USA overhead
> power distribution at street level is the norm in many areas, but we
> can't all make progress....:-)
>
> > Chris Taylor
> > http://www.nerys.com/
> >
> > "Bob Cowell" <trash_trap@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:vobluu0gmbsapcpn1egetvloenpacce8eg@4ax.com...
> >
> >>BULLSHIT
> >>not EVERY in america has access to highspeed access.
> >>I have been begging and trying for years to get SOMETHING faster than
> >>
> > dialup,
> >
> >>but since I do not live in the "right" area, NO GO
> >>
> >>On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:53:35 GMT, "BK" <none@none.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
> >>>>
> >>>ADSL.
> >>>
> >>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >

[john k]

Herb Winston wrote:
>
> No thanks.
>

Well, ignorance is curable, but only if you're willing to be cured.

> --
> Herb Winston AMA 50438
> Bonita Springs, FL
>
> "He may look like an idiot,
> and he may sound like an idiot,
> but don't let him fool you.
> He really is an idiot."
>
> Mark Twain
> "kallend" <kallend@iit.edu> wrote in message
> news:3DEB969E.6034B64D@iit.edu...
>
> Herb Winston wrote:
> >
> > The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
> >
> > "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> > when I've last seen that here.
> >
>
> Come to Chicago.
>
> > --
> > Herb Winston AMA 50438
> > Bonita Springs, FL
> >
> > "He may look like an idiot,
> > and he may sound like an idiot,
> > but don't let him fool you.
> > He really is an idiot."
> >
> > Mark Twain
> > "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> > news:3DEB3B4F.70409@b.c...
> >
> > Chris Taylor Jr wrote:
> >
> > > He is correct. EVERYONE has access.
> > >
> > > What you and I want is PRACTICAL access.
> > >
> > > sure if you want to pay upwards of $2,000 to $10,000 a month SURE you
> too
> > > can have a T1 :-)
> > >
> >
> > In the UK, you could get it fort less than that, BUT its likley the
> > telco would not spend money digging up the ground to lay a fiibre pipe
> > the last 5 miles, but would use a microwave link instead...and hey
> > presto, falling leaves, birds, rain, etc. etc.=packet loss.
> >
> > Eventually DSL will get to everybody, but over here at least, we still
> > have overhead power distribution - and that gets taken out every storm.
> > Of course in thinly disguised 3rd world countries like the USA overhead
> > power distribution at street level is the norm in many areas, but we
> > can't all make progress....:-)
> >
> > > Chris Taylor
> > > http://www.nerys.com/
> > >
> > > "Bob Cowell" <trash_trap@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vobluu0gmbsapcpn1egetvloenpacce8eg@4ax.com...
> > >
> > >>BULLSHIT
> > >>not EVERY in america has access to highspeed access.
> > >>I have been begging and trying for years to get SOMETHING faster than
> > >>
> > > dialup,
> > >
> > >>but since I do not live in the "right" area, NO GO
> > >>
> > >>On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:53:35 GMT, "BK" <none@none.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
> > >>>>
> > >>>ADSL.
> > >>>
> > >>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > >

[Gary Capson]

NO THEY DON`T.

BK wrote:
>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
>
> ADSL.
>
>
> Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
>
>
>
>


--
A Balanced Diet is a Cookie in each Hand.

Gary

[Herb Winston]

John,

Ignorance? Not really. There is no reason why one who now resides in
paradise to even contemplate returning to the ills of any large northern
city. As stated in another post: Been there, done that. Ergo: Not ignorant,
just unwilling.

Regards,

--
Herb Winston AMA 50438
Bonita Springs, FL

"He may look like an idiot,
and he may sound like an idiot,
but don't let him fool you.
He really is an idiot."

Mark Twain
"john k" <kallend@ameritec.net> wrote in message
news:3DEBFC9C.32B6939C@ameritec.net...


Herb Winston wrote:
>
> No thanks.
>

Well, ignorance is curable, but only if you're willing to be cured.

> --
> Herb Winston AMA 50438
> Bonita Springs, FL
>
> "He may look like an idiot,
> and he may sound like an idiot,
> but don't let him fool you.
> He really is an idiot."
>
> Mark Twain
> "kallend" <kallend@iit.edu> wrote in message
> news:3DEB969E.6034B64D@iit.edu...
>
> Herb Winston wrote:
> >
> > The Ultimate Xenophobe spews forth:
> >
> > "overhead power distribution at street level"? How strange. Can't recall
> > when I've last seen that here.
> >
>
> Come to Chicago.
>
> > --
> > Herb Winston AMA 50438
> > Bonita Springs, FL
> >
> > "He may look like an idiot,
> > and he may sound like an idiot,
> > but don't let him fool you.
> > He really is an idiot."
> >
> > Mark Twain
> > "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> > news:3DEB3B4F.70409@b.c...
> >
> > Chris Taylor Jr wrote:
> >
> > > He is correct. EVERYONE has access.
> > >
> > > What you and I want is PRACTICAL access.
> > >
> > > sure if you want to pay upwards of $2,000 to $10,000 a month SURE you
> too
> > > can have a T1 :-)
> > >
> >
> > In the UK, you could get it fort less than that, BUT its likley the
> > telco would not spend money digging up the ground to lay a fiibre pipe
> > the last 5 miles, but would use a microwave link instead...and hey
> > presto, falling leaves, birds, rain, etc. etc.=packet loss.
> >
> > Eventually DSL will get to everybody, but over here at least, we still
> > have overhead power distribution - and that gets taken out every storm.
> > Of course in thinly disguised 3rd world countries like the USA overhead
> > power distribution at street level is the norm in many areas, but we
> > can't all make progress....:-)
> >
> > > Chris Taylor
> > > http://www.nerys.com/
> > >
> > > "Bob Cowell" <trash_trap@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vobluu0gmbsapcpn1egetvloenpacce8eg@4ax.com...
> > >
> > >>BULLSHIT
> > >>not EVERY in america has access to highspeed access.
> > >>I have been begging and trying for years to get SOMETHING faster than
> > >>
> > > dialup,
> > >
> > >>but since I do not live in the "right" area, NO GO
> > >>
> > >>On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:53:35 GMT, "BK" <none@none.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access
to
> > >>>>
> > >>>ADSL.
> > >>>
> > >>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > >

[The Natural Philosopher]

Albert Homburwas wrote:

> BULLSHIT
>
> ISDN $29,99/mo
> Cable Modem $10/mo
>


Not in the UK.
Not incluiding phone charges.


>
> "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:3DEB3E30.4020700@b.c...
>
>>
>>Chris Taylor Jr wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>ISDN averages about $100/mo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>if your lucky. Most isdn service you still have to pay per minute AND
>>>
> the
>
>>>isp charges are usually higher. I have seen people bloe $75 to $300 a
>>>
> month
>
>>>on ISDN
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Yup. I finally got unlimited phone call access for a total including
>>line rental of around $100 per year. Plus the ISP service its around
>>$1500-$1800 per year. Its twice as fast as teh modem was and about 10
>>times more reliable - auto dial-and-drop using a Cisco router..
>>
>>
>>
>>>>T1 averages about $1000/mo (800-1600)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>partial t's maybe ? but I thought a full T1 was quite a bit more ??
>>>
> could be
>
>>>wrong (or out of date I am thinking from a few years ago)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>E1 here - 2Mbps - costs about $8-10,000 p.a., but the line to your home
>>would be of similar costs. Call it $16000-$20000 p.a. Fractional E1's
>>are in the $8-10k range for 'rural' locations.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Straight dial-up prices are skewed by AOL but there are PLENTY of ISP's
>>>>for under $10/mo and many more at under $20/mo (modem).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>GOOD dial ups are $20 a month. most (not all just most) of the $10 isps
>>>
> are
>
>>>just that $10 isp's and you get what you pay for.
>>>
>>>More than $20 is a rip. (hear that earthlink and aol)
>>>
>>
>>Internet IS expensive, but in my case I use it slightly more than I use
>>a car. Running each car costs about $6000 p.a. doing it the
>>'accountants' way - i.e. amortising depreciation, and all costs into the
>>annualised mileage.
>>
>>To be fair, the internet has probably saved me around $100k over the
>>last two years, in terms of access to information and prices.
>>
>>I think the real point is that 'toy' internet is finsished.
>>
>>If you want the quality and the bandwidth you gotta pay for it.
>>
>>
>>I am prepared to pay over $2000 p.a., but not yet $10,000 p.a.
>>
>>As far as the orginal issue went, yes, anybody who writes websites with
>>microsoft tools should be condemned to rewrite Windows in Assembler,
>>using only a modem to access the compiler...Its siomply pure bad design
>>to design sites that only work over high speed links, espefcially if a
>>large part of your target market doesn't have that access for very
>>sensible reasons.
>>
>>If I come up with a site full of flashy graphics that doesn't load in
>>under 30 seconds, I go somewhere ease. With luck all such sites will
>>wither and die.
>>
>>And the companies that wrote them as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Chris Taylor
>>>http://www.nerys.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[Jerry Irvine]

In article <3DEC0578.7080603@nbnet.nb.ca>,
Gary Capson <ve1ahm@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:

> NO THEY DON`T.

Via directway satellite they probably do.

>
> BK wrote:
> >>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
> >
> > ADSL.
> >
> >
> > Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
> >
> >
> >
> >

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Jerry Irvine wrote:

> In article <3DEC0578.7080603@nbnet.nb.ca>,
> Gary Capson <ve1ahm@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>NO THEY DON`T.
>>
>
> Via directway satellite they probably do.


That is not as highspeed as you might think.

Try playing 'everquest' with second plus delay times...


>
>
>>BK wrote:
>>
>>>>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
>>>>
>>>ADSL.
>>>
>>>
>>>Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

[Jerry Irvine]

In article <3DECE5F5.3080907@b.c>, The Natural Philosopher <a@b.c>
wrote:

> Jerry Irvine wrote:
>
> > In article <3DEC0578.7080603@nbnet.nb.ca>,
> > Gary Capson <ve1ahm@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>NO THEY DON`T.
> >>
> >
> > Via directway satellite they probably do.
>
>
> That is not as highspeed as you might think.
>
> Try playing 'everquest' with second plus delay times...

Do not play games. Try getting motors certified by NAR, it is even more
frustrating :)

Jerry

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
Produce then publish.

[Chris Taylor Jr]

$29.99 PLUS the per minute cost PLUS the ISP surcharge if you want both
channels (MOST but not all I admit ISP's charge extra for dual channel OR
limit the number of ISDN hours you can use before incurring further charges)

for someone like me (and I can not even get ISDN) it would be WELL over $100
a month.

also Cable for me is $56 a month. PLUS taxes etc..

$40 for the cable
$11 for basic Cable
$5 for modem rental

YES I must have the $11 basic cable. if I do not I have to pay a $15 no
cable service surcharge. (I use direct tv)

and it is my ONLY broadband option. (satellite is NOT broadband)

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/


"Albert Homburwas" <nonoe@nonr.com> wrote in message
news:M5NG9.55541$kz4.2711524@news2.west.cox.net...
> BULLSHIT
>
> ISDN $29,99/mo
> Cable Modem $10/mo
>
>
> "The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:3DEB3E30.4020700@b.c...
> >
> >

[Chris Taylor Jr]

hehehe can not argue with that.

but they have continued to update Front Page and each version truly is
better than the last.

Now I am not sure about frontpage specific stuff. I only use it to create
normal pages. No java or vb or flash etc.. I like straight html.

heck the only reason I even need to use FP is that I use Tables Extensively
and it handles them VERY well.

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

"Future Shock" <its@outthere.com> wrote in message
news:%EOG9.192627$gB.38995801@twister.nyc.rr.com.. .
>
> On 2-Dec-2002, "Chris Taylor Jr" <nospam@nerys.com> wrote:
>
> > Well I have to slightly disagree here.
> >
> > I use 2 programs primarily for html writing and that is Front Page and
> > Notepad. both microsoft apps :-)
> >
> > I always "create" the pages in frontpage and edit in notepad.
> >
> > Frontpage is one of those oddities from microsoft. it actually doesn't
> > suck
> > and each version really is significantly better than the last.
>
>
> That's because M$ didn't actually write the basis for FrontPage - they
> bought the codebase from another tool vendor, same as they did for IE,
same
> as they did for SQL Server (which started life as the Sybase 2.4
codebase).
> Notice how each of these tools isn't THAT bad...it's only what they write
> from scratch that is really piggish...
>
> FS

[Chris Taylor Jr]

satelite is NOT broadband. Sorry

Chris Taylor
http://www.nerys.com/

"Jerry Irvine" <01rocket@gte.net> wrote in message
news:01rocket-4FD47A.07592003122002@news.bellatlantic.net...
> In article <3DEC0578.7080603@nbnet.nb.ca>,
> Gary Capson <ve1ahm@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
>
> > NO THEY DON`T.
>
> Via directway satellite they probably do.
>
> >
> > BK wrote:
> > >>No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
> > >
> > > ADSL.
> > >
> > >
> > > Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> --
> Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
> Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to:01rocket@gte.net>
> Please bring common sense back to rocketry administration.
> Produce then publish.

[kenb]

Chris Taylor Jr wrote in message:

> DSL is limited to 18,000 feet and that 18,000 WIRE feet has
> to take you to a DSL ready CO.

That's under ideal conditions, xDSL in Canada is rated at 17,000 ft at
the best of times. Issues such as outside cable deterioration, age and
design of available equipment, presence of load coils, bridge taps, trashed
ISW (inside wiring of residence), and customer provided equipment (phones,
faxes, alarm systems, etc.) can substantially shorten the distance at which
xDSL will perform to acceptable levels. There are exceptions, but if you
can get dependable service beyond that range you are among the lucky few.
I'm an xDSL tester, and I deal with these issues every day of the week.
Anybody who thinks xDSL and cable are available for everybody coast to coast
is wrong, end of story.

--
Sent to you by Ken at
kenwho?@sympatico.ca
Replace "who?" with "b2" for e-mail

[Roe Thomas]

That should be BS rather than the BK

BK wrote:

> > No. many live in modern countries that still don't have 100% access to
> ADSL.
> >
>
> Everyone in North America has access to highspeed...