DS Method

[Pismo]

Ok, this may be an autopilot thread but I really would like to know your opinions on the DS circle method. I have a strong one but won't say until the votes are in.

Do you bang the top and bottom turns or carve them for more efficient use of the available energy. I'd be more interested in hearing about the normal days than the epic ones or even the light days since it may be more apparent.

Jim

[KingOfTheHill]

The planes i fly happen to work well with the way i fly..

http://i15.tinypic.com/80p9pfp.jpg

[Pismo]

That seems to be the norm with the smaller radius at the top and larger bottom but could you say you are more banging the turns or carving the turns? Or, even banging one and carving the other?

Daboz may remember a conversation we had at Parker. That and my flying got me thinking about the method a lot.

Jim
Helps me fall to sleep and forget work thinking about this stuff ;)

[Daemon]

I was leaning towards "depends" but am really a carver, particularly
as it relates to your stipulation that it be about medium/light air grooves.
I've found that in lighter air, banging the turns sometimes feels faster but generally isn't.

But then I also know that the four fastest DS pilots in the world right now,
Spencer, John Buxton, Nick and Joe Manor are all bangers. ;)
Although the 100" Kinetic and 126" Thundertaker were turning
pretty big mellow laps at Norco on the record day. John, on the the other
hand looked like he was trying to tear the wings off his Extreme.

ian

[Mike the Snake]

John Buxton and I really try and strive to maintain round circuits.

The drawing above depicts what I call the "Double clutch" or kind of a "paper clip" circuit.

Sometimes banging hard turns helps bump me into the next speed range, but then I usually go right back to round.

Round circuits eliminate the coasting sections of the circuit. They are harder to maintain, but keep the plane in the energy.

Jason definitely bangs paper clip turns.

Smoother and rounder seems to be faster as far as I can tell.

[MarkusN]

Please don't let me die ignorant. English is not my first language, and though I can say I have mastered the basics pretty well I am sometimes lost when it comes to jargon. What do you refer to as 'banging' a turn, what's 'carving'?

[Andrew McGregor]

English *is* my first language, and I don't know what they're on about either. Elaborate please?

[Mike the Snake]

DS is usually described as flying circles on the backside.

In actuality, we fly all over the sky, and use different shaped circuits to try for more speed.

Some hills have huge energy at the top, or bottom, or both.

Often doing a full pull "Bang" of a turn can give more speed, and if done at these areas of huge energy a lot of speed can be gained quickly.

"paper clip" circuits, basically "banging" both top and bottom turns, hesitating on the elevator and flying straight (No load) through the layer, forming paper clip shaped circuits. Often these are "Safe" to fly, as you stab thoroughly through the layer, then pull the turn.

In light conditions where round circuits are maxxing out, often a couple "double clutch" turns or banging some paper clip circuits can bump the plane into the next speed range. Kind of a "slingshot" effect.
I've found once the plane is at really high speeds (near 300) that an equilibrium forms and paper clip turns and banging abruptly hard turns don't seem to give gains any more.

Round circuits are just that. These have no "coasting" sections of the circuit. If you can maintain a round circuit it seems that you can then let the plane naturally wind up and the highest speeds are possible These round perfectly placed circuits are also the hardest to maintain I think.

DS is cool in that just about everyone's different ideas still work about as well as each other, i haven't found a "right way" or a "wrong way" to fly, but my style has totally evolved into trying to always fly as smooth and round circuits as I can with the heaviest plane In BIG winds it's given me my PB flying huge, lazy, round circuits.

Often, pulling the big round circuits in a bit tighter gives more speed, but it seems only for a lap or two, again, kind of a "slingshot" effect.

Tighter circuits really appear faster, but never seem to be as fast (for me).

[THUREN]

I'm trying to learn to fly what the wind and plane tells me to fly, which means I don't fly one way, and hope the plane and conditions just "work"..

I gues I would have to say though, for the most part, I think keeping a reasonable AUW(not TOO high of wing loading) pulling tight turns, with straight runs, seems to let me accelerate quicker and produce faster speeds.

Also, places like Parker force you to learn to "paper clip" as MTS would say, as it starts feeling pretty tight at about 250..

With a higher AUW, I think long carver turns can produce fast speeds, but accelerating during a strong gust will take longer than a "HARD" turn with a lighter AUW. That same gust may not last long enough to speed up durring 5 long sweeping carver laps.. When I hear the frontside start to rumble, I like to start popping the turns to take advantage of the energy while I have it..

[daboz]

I bang the turns for getting up to speed quickly and carve turns when going fast and trying to be efficient therefore not bleeding speed. For big speeds I think carving is the way to be efficient and milk those last few mph's.

I think both these descriptive words come from surfing. Going to the top of a wave one could either bang the turn, (off-the-lip) or carve of the top when you’re racing down the line, (wave face). Before I heard banging the DS turn I’ve been using these terms for years relative to surfing. In fact just a few months ago I called the DS “banging turns”, off the lips. A carved turn retains energy by turning efficiently, (a coordinated turn) a banged turn smacks the lip and uses the energy/momentum of the water, (lip) to smash the surfer and board down back to the trough gaining speed rapidly. If one is going slow the energy of all that water falling from the top of the wave can be harnessed by banging off it. If you’re already traveling fast you don’t need that falling energy because you have already surpassed its gains and, because of your speed, you’re moving orthogonal to the wave, (90 degrees).

I think it’s pretty similar for DSing. When the aircraft speed is not fast relative to the air coming over the ridge you can bang the turns to get up to speed but when the plane is getting near the max speed for the current conditions little gains can be made from carving smooooothhhhh turns,,, In fact watch this video and you will see that both turns are used to get the NYX up to 150 quickly in only 20mph air (NYX@Parker3.avi (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766995)). *3rd from left,,You'll need to install the DVIX codec* The plane drops in and at first is only going around 80mph or so! The plane has to be efficient and it carves a smooth turn so as not to bleed any speed. Next turn, a little faster, the plane bangs the oncoming air to use the momentum of the air coming over the ridge/lip of the bowl and gains speed quickly. After getting up to about 130 or so the plane then needs to carve a couple of smooth turns to get over 150mph because its traveling fast relative to the 20mph air rushing over the lip. FWIW, That’s the way I see it but I’m new to this game.

Chris

[Cory]

English *is* my first language, and I don't know what they're on about either. Elaborate please?


They're speaking Californian, not English. ;)

Cory
Who used to speak Californian too, a long, long time ago in what seems like a galaxy far, far away. :D

[Andrew McGregor]

Californian surfer at that, which doesn't parse right for a Kiwi. Well, thanks for the explanation guys... I understand that :-)

[sll914]

I think it depends on alot of things. Airfoil, snapflaps, wing loading, the hill, wind conditions, the plane's handling, and pilot reaction time.

Spencer

[Indubitably]

I believe it was Spencer who recently pointed out that if you carve a smooth circle in the DS circle, then to add snap flaps is basically camber, and probably adding to drag. Did i get that right?

Some hills need elongated ovals to find the groove for fast flight. None more so than Windmills. In fact the pilot position is 50 ft below the elevation of the ridge top. You really have to elongate the pattern. But you needed 75mph winds to push your plane past 300mph.

I see the straight segment of a DS circuit as wasted energy. 15 # of drag pulling an Opus back is a lot of wasted speed, the longer the straight the bigger the penalty. There is that little drouge chute behind every plane. Parker also ovalizes the pattern. Lake Isabella allows for as round a circle as you want to make them. Focus on lowering your altitude at the front, and rounding the turn out below the shear.

When i heard Joe Manor say he used a lot of up elevator trim, that connected with one of my flying styles. I use either the throttle stick, or the left camber widget to mix to my elevator. During flight i can slide the elevator trim so the plane now holds the turn with no up elevator pull. When its smooth, you can actually watch your plane DS the perfect circle with no perceptable input! And its lined up so the circle is lined up at the boundary, and then you try to find a faster groove - and you cant!

I do not see my self as Banging turns. Im trying to smooooth the circle ever so gently, massaging it to the best diameter, larger, smaller in smaller increments, the upturn stuffing the radar gun, the other side of the circle just finding the boundary layer. The fastest part of the circle across the bottom kept as free of sudden corrections as possible to keep from loosing the speed as the plane comes face to face with Mr Radar.

Thats it--- smooth it out reduce your reactions (except those panic escapes) to a minimum, to keep the perfect circle as conformed as possible.

There will be other philosophies to the sport, depending on theories. Some will work and gratify the speculations. Other conjectures will crumble as other methods prove their points. Best bet is to fly with those that i learn from. Which is really everyone i have flown with so far... and i really appreciate that fact.

[Daemon]

Well, banger or not, nobody else flew tighter or higher frequency laps than
you did at Norco that day. It's true the circuits were pretty circular but
they were really tight. Sort of like banging without the straights in
between. ;)

I found myself having to pull a little harder on the bottom turn at Norco
than I'm used to, just so the plane wouldn't disappear for extended periods
of time in that haze. The top turn took care of itself. At Parker the next day
we were were trying to slow the plane down to avoid flutter, in pretty much
perfect conditions, and I about doubled the the diameter of the normal circuit,
dipping only a few degrees below the horizon for better visibility, and ended up
clicking off a 281 anyway. It looked really slow actually.

ian

[invictarocks]

I think the top turn should be banged (if you're set up right), and the bottom turn should be scooped slow; right in the power zone. The power zone gets "earlier" the faster you go. The "bang" at the top is determined by airfoil and wingloading. You can't force it; and you have to cross the top shear with the bottom of your wing facing the oncoming wind. The entry into the bottom shear is still a mystery to me, but I know that you need to stay low and get into the bottom juice early.

[KingOfTheHill]

my problem is that i fly a certain way... its not a good thing but i have been lucky to find planes that match my flying style... like the Destiny and JW... both BANG turns.. the kinetic will bang the hardest turn i have ever felt... another reason i sold the bird was because i couldnt get it to match my flying style...

its all different... different strokes for different folks.

JOe

[Pismo]

I think the others explained it well but in my words I think of banging the turns as a very hard turn that is sort of like whipping the plane through the turn. I think of carving as more of holding the turn hard but not whipping it around it. Not sure I'm doing a good job of explaining it or at least good for people that haven't flown or thought about it.

The reason I wanted to read this discussion was to get others thoughts and to see if some of my theories could be correct.

I finally got a chance to see the fastest pilots and planes at some of the fastest mountains and conditions and it made me start the same thinking process that I've had on those long DS days out at Poway (my relatively small local hill). I would try different things and see what felt like it was yielding the best speed. I convinced myself that the fastest speed was attained with a very strong carve top and bottom. Not the bang or hard whip that I thought may be the trick and I've seen on several DS videos.

Joe's diagram is a good picture of the path but I don't do such a small top and large bottom relative to each other. The top is usually smaller/tighter than the bottom though. Hey, I'm no expert...just saying what *I* do.

One thing I noticed is that the bang/carve difference seems harder and harder to differentiate what's good and what's not at the high speed/high wind DS circuits. I'd like to see a bunch of good pilots and planes on a really smooth 15 mph day seeing what would yield the highest speed. Of course, I'd like to see that with one flavor of plane at the same wing loading and a big wish that the layers remain pretty constant. Not a small order (not too mention not too likely to happen).

Ok, early mornings and getting home late is making me ramble. Please keep the thoughts coming - I enjoy them all. Well, not the one knucklehead that chose to use one of his 6 posts to vote to kill the thread :censored: :rolleyes:

Thanks,
Jim

[Pismo]

No that I've said my piece I think I'll vote :D

[Frank S]

I'm gonna wait until Joe W. votes.

[The End]

I too have been watching the style of the top speed guys, and one thing for certain...smooth equals fast & hitting the top turn makes a huge difference...oh not to mention staying IN THE AIR.. :o

[KingOfTheHill]

the way i learned from some of the best was...

"all the extra time you spend on the front slows you down"... i believe wurts told me that.. or bowman..

[Jantar2A]

I like to bang for fun,LOL,but for speed you must carve.
Just remember that every hill is diff along with every day on the hill.

A good pilot can easily adapt to diff hills and conditions quickly,as well as Dsing in both dirrections,

Moral,Get out and DS diff hills diff dirrections & fly as often as possible,,even the front side.lol

Nick

[THUREN]

There is going to be different opinions of what carving and banging a turn is too..

I agree with what JOe said about lingering on the frontside to an extent, but I think even more important is to stay low coming back up as to not be in the headwind as long as possible. I "try" to get into the shear coming up low to the ground, pull a good energy filled turn, and I don't worry as much about how low I enter back it. I think as long as the plane is going back under the shear cleanly, and the plane is still going in the direction of the wind before pulling elevator, it can't hurt to reduce the drag by effectively lowering the planes "real" windspeed as it's going down wind.

I should have some video soon of a few days a go at Parker, which I "think" I pulled off some good runs in.

Parker feels REALLY tight compared to Wedon.. :p

[THUREN]

I like to bang for fun,LOL,but for speed you must carve.


Nick

MUST carve? I dunno Nick.....


In order to carve, you'd have to get into the headwind deeper in order to pull a bigger radius turn right? I like to get into the headwind, turn quick to use the energy before drag gets me too much, and get out smooth and clean.

I guess if you were carving a perfect circle, and the plane entered/left the shear almost perpendicular everytime, that could be considered carving, but at 300mph that's a TIGHT circle.. :p

[Jantar2A]

I said nothing about a perfect circle.
Think of the weldon site,and what I mean by not banging and carving the turn is.
when I get to the top turn I don't just bang the turn and go right back down,I like to cut across the ridge at the shear,right above the walking path,all the way to where the car's are parked in th saddle and then pull down through the saddle with the tail wind that is blowing through the saddle for the very least airspeed on the plane.

You can check out some video of me flying Weldon with my opus here

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766943

Oh BTW I hear you fly well,,hope to hook up with ya on my next DS adventure out there.

Nick

[sll914]

[QUOTE=Indubitably]I believe it was Spencer who recently pointed out that if you carve a smooth circle in the DS circle, then to add snap flaps is basically camber, and probably adding to drag. Did i get that right?



John,

It depends on the airfoil, but for many if not most, adding camber when pulling a turn (aka snapflap) LOWERS the resulting drag. You can see this by looking at the polars in Profili. I've attached Jow Wurts' polars from the jm14 to illustrate. I'm guessing the '...tp4...' in his legend probably means trailing edge cambered at +4 deg and '...tm4...' means reflexed 4 deg. Basically, with positive camber, the Cl vs Cd curve shifts up the Cl axis so that the min drag part of the curve (where you really want to be flying to minimize drag) occurs at higher Cl. Conversely, reflex typically shifts te curve down the Cl axis.

If you're doing mega sized smooth laps (low Cl), and your plane isn't outrageously heavy, snapflap might slow you down (depending on your airfoil) because you're probably already flying in the min drag range of Cl without the camber...

Spencer
Who is a big fan of snap flap

[THUREN]

Spencer
Who is a big fan of snap flap

Right there with ya'... :)

[THUREN]

I said nothing about a perfect circle.
Think of the weldon site,and what I mean by not banging and carving the turn is.
when I get to the top turn I don't just bang the turn and go right back down,I like to cut across the ridge at the shear,right above the walking path,all the way to where the car's are parked in th saddle and then pull down through the saddle with the tail wind that is blowing through the saddle for the very least airspeed on the plane.

You can check out some video of me flying Weldon with my opus here

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766943

Oh BTW I hear you fly well,,hope to hook up with ya on my next DS adventure out there.

Nick

Gotcha..

I see exactly what you are saying about Weldon. Later in the day I actually started flying closer to the saddle, so that I could come up the hill rather straight, and then get my tightish turn in, all the while still following the wind on the down leg.

I see it like we are trying to do the same thing, but I feel the extra time to get across the hill is more drag time...

Fun to discuss.. :)

[THUREN]

You can check out some video of me flying Weldon with my opus here

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=766943



Nick

Just watched the video a few times. Great flying BTW!!

What I saw, pulling tighter circles gave you about 20mph more speed. ;)

Surely wind conditions and other things contribute, but when you pulled tighter and hung out less on the frontside, thats when I saw the 280's..

:D

[Frank S]

As one who does not yet have the skills to keep up with the faster pilots, I've found that the angle of my circle relative to the shear plane has a much greater effect on my reported speeds than the shape of the turn that I fly.

For example, I have a tendency to roll out of knife edge at the bottom of the turn, especially when I'm nervous. That increases my exit angle and invariably results in a big loss of speed.

As best I can tell, the characteristic that is common to all of the fastest pilots is an ability to keep their circles consistently in the same plane, regardless of the actual turn shape.

[Jantar2A]

Just watched the video a few times. Great flying BTW!!

What I saw, pulling tighter circles gave you about 20mph more speed. ;)

Surely wind conditions and other things contribute, but when you pulled tighter and hung out less on the frontside, thats when I saw the 280's..

:D
yeh, the wind wasn't quite strong enough to support the larger groove so the tighten the Ol'e circle up thing worked a bit. the faster laps seemed to be the lower ones too..

Weldon showed us a side of her I've never seen before on that day,really rough at times,,Mike the snakes super heavy opus got spit off the shear like I've never seen,,,so I was a bit intimidated by the groove that day,so I might have been a bit squirmish to fly my normal groove at weldon that day..so I dug as hard as I felt comfortable with and had fun and all the planes flew the next 2 days.

man what a flash back,,I gotta get back out there for more soon

Nick

[Daemon]

For example, I have a tendency to roll out of knife edge at the bottom of the turn, especially when I'm nervous. That increases my exit angle and invariably results in a big loss of speed.

That also happens if you don't get down close enough to the ground.
The shear at the bottom tends to roll the plane out of the groove
while the shear at the top rolls you into the hill. That's why if you try
to fly "conservatively" (high and/or far behind the hill) the groove will often
spit you right out.


As best I can tell, the characteristic that is common to all of the fastest pilots is an ability to keep their circles consistently in the same plane, regardless of the actual turn shape.
That's true, and it means the plane hits the frontside wind as head on
as possible thus able to pick up the most energy when you turn, but the
other big reason to get the angle of the DS circuit lower is
just so you can get the plane pointed straight at the radar gun.
At Weldon we could see that you had a bunch of fast laps, but we couldn't
get a straight shot at the plane with the gun.

ian

[slopeHappy]

The best way to answer this question is to develop a good glider simulation, wind sheer model, and turn an optimizer loose on it until the optimal path is found. Luckily, Dr. Sachs at the Munich Technical University in Germany has done this and has published the results in the paper "Optimization of Dynamic Soaring at Ridges" AIAA 2003-5303. www.aiaa.org. The optimal path is neither a paper clip, or a circle, but is an oval with a bit tighter radius at the top. The glider is also near it's maximum lift coefficient through the top turn, so maybe that would be banging the turn.

In the paper "Optimal Patterns of Glider Dynamic Soaring", Dr. Zhao from the Univ of Minniesota, shows a more of a stretched oval, with aabout a 2-1 ratio of length to width. His path also has a slightly tighter turn at the top.

Hope this little science tidbit has helped.

[Pismo]

The best way to answer this question is to develop a good glider simulation, wind sheer model, and turn an optimizer loose on it until the optimal path is found. Luckily, Dr. Sachs at the Munich Technical University in Germany has done this and has published the results in the paper "Optimization of Dynamic Soaring at Ridges" AIAA 2003-5303. www.aiaa.org. The optimal path is neither a paper clip, or a circle, but is an oval with a bit tighter radius at the top. The glider is also near it's maximum lift coefficient through the top turn, so maybe that would be banging the turn.

In the paper "Optimal Patterns of Glider Dynamic Soaring", Dr. Zhao from the Univ of Minniesota, shows a more of a stretched oval, with aabout a 2-1 ratio of length to width. His path also has a slightly tighter turn at the top.

Hope this little science tidbit has helped.

All I can say to that is D'OH! Wish I'd seen that before I started the thread ;) Not really, I want real life experience as much as model data. I'll read up on the info when I have more time just the same.

I did want to say something before I get too biased...Seems to me that I get good energy transfer when I do a strong carve on the bottom boundary (hold the sweet spot and work it all the way through) and a little less time on the top. Also, I don't always mean a large circle when I say carve. Actually most of the times not.

Jim

[Psionic001]

I have found that there is big bang and little bang and there's a fine line between them, at least with my JW. I started flying paperclip double bang turns, then I moved to circles for a few days. Circles feel nice but you can almost see the speed washing off in those long arcs that are crossing the sheer.

I now fly "Eggs" which are a combination of both. Eggs also have a blunt and a pointy end too. I found that on big days, the pointy end shoud be upwind. Days under say 15kts, the pointy banging end should be downwind.

make sense? Anyone else fly this style? This is for JW only as I don't have much crunchie experience with DS yet,

best

Matt

PS, great thread. Many of us can try each others techniques and learn much. Thank you.

[sll914]

Luckily, Dr. Sachs at the Munich Technical University in Germany has done this and has published the results in the paper "Optimization of Dynamic Soaring at Ridges" AIAA 2003-5303. www.aiaa.org.

Looks interesting! Has anyone read the article in full? Is it published anywhere where you don't have to pay $25 to read it? Otherwise, is it worth the $25?

Thanks,
Spencer

[D.S.]

Maybe we should charge Dr. Sachs $25.00 to come out and watch the 300 + gang fly!

Finding the optimum DS flight path for a particular plane on a particular day is simple. Keep trying different lines until the sound your plane is making transitions from that "ripping the air" sound to the "distant thunder" sound then repeat that line over and over until somebody catches a speed over 300 on radar. Land immediately before something bad happens and go home, you had a good day. :)

Dean

[Pismo]

SlopeHappy,

I have the same question as Spencer. Also, I noticed in the preview that it mentioned full scale soaring. That has me wondering if they entered maximum G forces in the model that would change things when compared to RC.

Matt, thanks. I'm glad you like the thread. I'm really enjoying everything being said too. I'd really like to get some edited video posted from some of the many videographers we have with their many hours of video. Probably some great examples what people are describing.

Different things seem to work for different conditions but I think I'm still going with strong tight carves for the best use/transfer of energy (speed), all things considered. Next time you're DSing or watching with a radar gun on the plane, checkout the speed difference while the plane carves versus whips/bangs turns. I've seen what I would swear was a slower (prettier) lap compared to some aggressive bang laps that had much higher speed on radar.

[slopeHappy]

The main focus of the paper was to see if a full-size glider could DS behind a hill (answer=yes) but he did include a figure that compares the wind shear needed for model gliders and full-size gliders. He also wrote a paper about a fighter jet DSing the jet stream (with questionable results). I imagine that he would love to see dynamic soaring if he hasn't already. One of these days I'm going to duplicate his simulator and try to answer the question of what the optimal ballast is for a given glider for a given wind speed. Then look into snap flaps and various airfoils. All I need to do is give up sleep.

[Mike the Snake]

I flew the other day for hours.

I couldn't find a difinitive way to fly that was consistently faster. Most of the time larger lazier circuits give up better speeds. I think partially because the angle is better and there's more time for readings, tighter circuits seem faster but don't seem to give the numbers on radar.

I flew mostly clock-wise circuits, this direction gave better speeds that day. Dennis Noland flies in this direction. Often the other direction is faster. I've practiced both directions and both international and goofy styles to where I'm equally comfortable in all four situations. This helps globally, and I learn more about the hill and the air.

Even flying "round' circuits, the shape when viewed from above does have a slightly sharper kink at the top turn, not from a harder pull on elevator, but from the plane hitting the air over the ridge and carving tighter.

The more I DS, the more I feel like I forgot what I learned, but it really is just me naturally, unconsciously flying faster and smoother. My speeds definitely are WAY faster in the same winds than when I started out.

During my flights, I "bang" both bottom and top turns at times, mainly to see how the plane bounces back, checking the air. Once I feel good air (plane gains speed or bounces off the hard air) I'll work that area.
The other day I found myself flying all over the sky looking for better air and more speed.

It seems there are many ways to fly to get gains in speeds, but that my TOP speeds are when I stick a few perfect round laps, gain some energy, and at the same time the air allows me to continue, never really having any elongation to the shape, just as round a circuit as i can fly, keeping the plane IN the energy at all times (knife edge and Under Load through the layer).

DS is too dynamic to say any one thing works better than the other. It is very cool like that. Light WL, high WL, smooth big or small Round circuits, long oval "paper clip" circuits, everyone seems to eek out basically the same speeds.

There Still exists "the next level" however, and I believe the plane's shapes, foils, circuit size and shape, and wing loadings will be different at 400-plus.

The only constant is that flying thousands of laps, slow and fast, helps make you faster.

[Pismo]

...keeping the plane IN the energy at all times (knife edge and Under Load through the layer).


I like the way you put that. Knife edge and under load. Seems like when the layer is smooth and high it makes that easier and the speeds show it too.

[Indubitably]

Mike i liked the way you summarized your experience. possibly sounding a little vulnerable in venturing your views but i agree in general and in your specifics.. You worded it well. Thank you
John