Voith Schneider drives available

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Graupner has reissued a Voith-Schneider drive for 2002. I believe you can "Special Order" them, in the US, through Hobby Lobby International using the Graupner part number. Be sure to say it is a special order. They are running about $160.00 US.

[Edit]
Harbor models (http://www.harbormodels.com/) has been carrying these drives for about $145 I believe.

Graupner Part 2358 VOITH-SCHNEIDER
> Specification Drive motor SPEED 500 E 12 V
> Operating voltage 10 ... 12 V
> No. of propeller blades 5
> Blade length approx. 50 mm
> Propeller disc ? approx. 65 mm
> Overall height (incl. motor) approx. 155 mm
> Housing ? approx. 93 mm
> Weight (incl. motor) approx. 445 g
> Height excl. motor approx. 115 mm
> Required opening in hull approx. 84 mm

[Andrew Gilchrist]

Umi

what is the efficiency of these like and the speed range ?

Andrew
fastelectrics.com

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I just got one (I ordered two.) So I haven't been able to test it in the water yet. I have to build a boat still:D

But running the engine dry, I can feel the breeze from the blades on 6 volts, and a it's a nice wind at 12volts


I have Three boats in mind.
The first will be a 95 foot tractor tug.

The second option is one of the Navy MHC
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/mhc-51-gallery.htm
...The top speed of one of these is like 10 kts if that tells you anything.

The third might be "The sound of Sleat" small car ferry boat.
http://homepages.tesco.net/~robin.coles/sleat.jpg

I plan to cast the mounting ring of the engine so that all I have to do is unscrew the engine and move it to different boats.

[Duke58]

This Drive is really interesting , on a slightly larger scale you could have one on both ends of a boat and be able to maintain heading and position with a little help from GPS and rate sensors.

It might make the Bass fishermen happy, how much servo power does it require?

Earl

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well it is pretty easy to manipulate the control rod on the center of the engine. So I don't believe I will need anything more than standard servos.

However I am not sure it could hold a full size boat in a current or a stiff breeze.

They are kind of difficult to comprehend
Friedrich Prossegge has resource documentation for building a small drive unit,

http://members.surfeu.at/fprossegger/english/myvsp.html

and the best diagram on his website.

http://members.surfeu.at/fprossegger/english/myvsp-explosion.html

Otherwise you need to contact Voith Marine Technologies if you want a larger version.
http://www.voith-schiffstechnik.com/home/home_flash.htm

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The Project has been chosen!!!

The new Los Angeles Fire boat #2 is the winner.
I have had plans for a Foss Tractor tug "America" sitting around for years, but, as mentioned, until last winter the Drives could not be found.

The Los Angeles Fire Boat #2 was launched on January 17, 2003. It went into service in April. No one talks about this boat. Conceptual drawing are available online in the form of PDFs and BMP from the L.A. Fire Department site. But contacting the naval Architects and the builders will be only be met by silence, and the comment, "We're Busy! :mad: ".

We only managed to get reasonble frame plans because one of the links at the LAFD website worked for 24 hours. It didn't work before, and hasn't worked since then. We found several images of the hull under construction. I put my pencil to work and despite some construction descrepancies we have hulls.

[Edit] Drive efficiency: These drives run really well. We got the opportunity to run with some of the guys from Seattle, NW R/C scale Ship Modelers, and they had two of their tugs running on these drives. One of these was Huge, over scaled, compared to the drives. But it ran beautifully, strong and did not suffer at all from being over sized.

The Keels were laid on August 3rd, 2003

[mike_victoriaBC]

Hi Umi:
I've seen the hulls for the LA models. There's a fellow near here building them for the LAFD using those drives. Please let me know if you're interested and I'll put you in touch with him. I've also seen the AJAX belonging to a Burnaby boat club member - you might find it on the North West Model Boat guys page under the 2003 Foss Cup photos. It's amazingly manouverable.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Hi Mike,

We heard from a few of the guys in NW R/C Ship Modelers that there was someone building the LA Fire Boat #2 in Victoria, BC.

Be we were given the impression that he was only interested in
marketing them. But if he is building in the same scale as ours, 1/36, then we would be interested in some of the fitting items.

Is He building them FOR the LAFD? Like display models?

Yes, put us in touch. We can always use more info and data.:cool:

[mike_victoriaBC]

I'll find out for you.
I'm impressed with your superstructure - the angles, etc don't make that an easy model.
Mike

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Actually I hadn't considered the bridge work to be the difficulty.
It was finding hull information that was driving me crazy. I would be finished with the bridge structure, but if I get too far ahead of Tachikaze, he will get depressed.

Of course he kind of likes benefiting from all my second thoughts on construction.:rolleyes:

Thanks for checking your local connections for info for us.

[mike_victoriaBC]

You've perked my interest to look for another boat to start! The Voith units have facinated me but I've been reluctant to bite the bullet having two other tug hulls on the go using regular drives and nozzles. I'll be interested in seeing your photos showing the units when mounted - a tractor tug might be the style I head to. Providing the rain lets up here I hope to head over to the Fraser River area on the weekend and take some photos of typical working tugs provided they're locatable. What hull size do you think these drives can manage? Any ideas?
Mike

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I have seen the drives running a boat in 1/24 scale. They had no problem moving the boat, or a tow.

Here are some of my links

http://www.ral.bc.ca/
go to site map, escort tugs, AVT

Ferry boat
http://www.dehoop.net/ship.php?shipnumber=NB1012

Small Car ferry boat
http://homepages.tesco.net/~robin.coles/Sleat.htm

US Navy MHC with voith drives and bow thruster
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/mhc-51-gallery.htm

A Foss Tug link
http://www.foss.com/fleet/tractor.htm

I have what I would call a partial plan set for the "Foss America"
I was able to obtain them by meeting with one of the local Foss maintanence supervisors and discussing my project.
;)

And Fredrich Prosseiger's site. No recent updates, but a great website non the less. Never could find a copy of the books he recommends.
http://members.surfeu.at/fprossegger/english/vsp-function.html

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Oh, I also have some pdf files for some tugs, and these plan images for a tug known as "Gatika"

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

These aren't very big, but I can e-mail you the bigger versions if these don't print well.

[mike_victoriaBC]

Here is a website with another LA Fireboat to view under "projects'.

I'm toying with a tug using these units, perhaps a Crowley style.

[mike_victoriaBC]

Guess the website would help!

www.artistswork.com

[mike_victoriaBC]

No, my typing:

www.artistwork.com

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well I contacted Artistwork about their boat.
He can't help us with any plans. Like I mentioned earlier,
"No one talks about this boat."
He is willing to sell us parts if we need them, but at 1/32nd scale.
You think with a laser cutter he could upscale the parts in the computer and push "go".

Ah well,...
I caught a short clip on "Monster Machines" on TLC. They hit a small van with the main fire monitor. It rolled the car, and then pushed it across the pier.

I have cast up some pumps, and modified the housings. If we can get three of these mounted into our boats, we should be able to pump nine gallons a minute out of our model.

So if we channel all three pumps to the main fire monitor, that would be about one gallon every 6 seconds.:D

[mike_victoriaBC]

Those look pretty sharp! They must create a nozzle effect for shooting the water or is that a result of the nozzle itself?
I've been looking at some Robbe fireboat ones but your pumps sound pretty neat.

I'm trying to find time to put together a few photos of my boat projects and then sort out the process to convert them to smaller files for e-mail.

I've not found a lot of photos of the Voith tugs - found a photo on the Crowley page - trying to find one with likable lines!

I look forward to seeing further photos

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The "nozzle affect" will occur at the fire monitor itself.
The pumps just need to provide a constant, and given volume of water.
The more volume we can supply, the better the monitors will shoot. We plan on keeping the supply lines as large as possible right up to each fire monitor. That way all that water will only have one place to go.

But we are doomed if a water supply breaks and we keep pumping. 8o

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I finally got another two days in on the Fireboat.
I pulled out all the frames, And tried shaving out some of the balsa subhull. The hull got really flexible. So I decided to leave the rest of the balsa in place, and lay my interior layer of fiberglass over the top.

I replaced one frame, with a thinner plywood, to keep the bottom stiff. The image shows the pump housings in their proposed location, and one of the "cast" voith-schneider mounting rings over its location. We cast the mounting ring, in case we decide to build another VS driven boat and just want to move the engines later.

I wanted to cut the drive holes just now, but my circle cutter is at work. :(

[mike_victoriaBC]

Best of the Season to Everyone! Hopefully some model building time over the holidays.
I have a start! A hull 38.5" in length, 12.5" beam - at 1:48 will give a nice boat of 155' length. I've set the two drive units in at 3.5" center to center - however in looking at the servo layout (shows 4) it looks tight to get 4 S5301 servos in - any thoughts? I've not seen any photos beyond the drive units in a hull yet.
Perhaps the large servos aren't necessary and the regular ones could work - I'm not sure what sort of torque is kicked back to them when turning the boat.

Incidentally - Professional Mariner's American Ship Review has some nice photos of the fireboat.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Mike,

You should have no problem fitting the servos in your hull with those dimensions. You decided to go with a VS drive I take it?
I just found some Pdf's in my files of one of those triple Z-drive tugs.

I found an old exacto cutter in my tool draw so I did get the drive holes cut. The fireboat is only 9" wide in 1/36 scale. So the center servos for the fire boat are going to be mounted upsidedown over the drive wheels.

Can't get much tighter than this,...

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Mike, what issue of Proffesional Mariner is the fireboat in?
I will have a look around for a copy.

Here is the underside of the drives and an aluminum drive plate/guard I cut. It still needs to be bent to the hull/ drive angle but I think it will serve its purpose.

[mike_victoriaBC]

Looks good Umi!
I hadn't thought of mounting servos upside down - these servos are the large 1/4 scale guys though and much larger. I've been watching Antoine's building but not seen any updates there for some time.

Professional Mariner - American Ship review Issue #76. Has a Ship of the Year on its cover. Looks like it's their annual issue. I just happened to trip over it Xmas shopping last week.

[Roger M.]

I did ask before but think my message may have got lost (I am sure you would not have overlooked it, Umi). But why two VS Drives? Is it about power? Or manouverability? Or both?

I have been unable to find any information on what power a VS Drive is capable of developing. I am sure it is not constant because of hull design; draught etc. but even something like "capable of powering a hull X long; Y beam; Z displacement approx." would help.

Any information, please?

Roger M

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Hey Roger,

One of the tugs that came down to Portland, from Seattle, was about 40" (1016mm) long, and was probably 18"(457mm) wide. The drives were "underscaled" for this particular model, but it handled very well, and had power to spare. Most of the ships are designed with manouverability in mind. If you look at the diagrams posted in the "Scale" forum for the Parat, Antoine's project, you can see how they are used to produce 360 degrees of thrust.

The R/V Knorr uses one drive at each end, and its top speed is about the same as the dual drive Navy MHC, about 11 knots.
So I think it really comes down to manouverablility.

The Sound of Sleat" ferry boat, would scale out to about 46" x 18"(1168.4mmx457mm) if scaled to the drive. One on each end.

One of the MHC class (10 knots top speed), coastal mine hunters for the US Navy would come out around 70"(178mm) x 13.5" (342.9mm)if you scaled it to the Graupner drive. Two in the stern, and one bow thruster.

And the "NB 436 - SCHULPENGAT", another passenger and vehicle ferry boat. (13 knots top speed.)
Dimensions out to around 135" (3429mm)x 22"(558.8mm), however, it uses four drives, two at each end

That is just how things scale out compared to the drive, the drives, are 1/32 - 1/36 scale. And watching and running the large model tug from Seattle, these drives have plenty of power.

[Roger M.]

As always, I appreciate the information. I have still not decided which model to go for. The most recent possibility is a glass hull I have been offered similar to "Smit Rotterdam" by Billings Boats at 1/75 scale, 900mmm long by 200mm beam.

Roger M

[mike_victoriaBC]

Hi Guys:
Preoccupied with other projects but I keep watching here to see how the building is going.
Any thoughts on the servos to run these drives? I've picked up some sheet aluminum to cut out the servo mounts from but a bit leary on starting without seeing one. I'm hoping to receive some photos of another one but not rec'd them yet.
I look forward to seeing progress.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

:cool: WOW!!! :cool:

I was looking for fire monitor schematics and looky what I found being built by
one John VanderHEIDEN, not Vanderbuilt(I sit corrected :D ), of Virginia.


Kudos to John, and his construction page.(I feel so behind now):D

Check out his web page here. :cool:

http://www.hrfsbo.com/fireboat/

[mike_victoriaBC]

That's quite a model and site!!

I spent quite some time going through it and still haven't digested all his work.

Thanks very much for finding his site and posting it - it's a great 'how you can build' site for anyone contemplating building or refining our skills!!

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

An ever so small smidgen of progress here, however a big step in getting this boat pieced together.

The propeller guard is pretty much ready for mounting.
I gave up on the aluminum plate as it was too thin.
Instead I used 1/4" acrylic. I cut the plate size, shaped it, then cut it in half, and bevel cut the center edge. After chemical welding it back together with acrylic cement I drilled and tapped all the mounting points at the corners and the center for 4-40 threaded rod. I then slipped some airfoiled aluminum tubing over it for shape, and back filled the tubing with epoxy.

It looks ready to mount. I will add the four other struts on either side of the center support, but they will be non structural.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

And the Tail skeg also acrylic, drilled and pinned into the remanants of the keel.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

A good test fit. :cool:
All the blades clear the guard plate by an eight inch.
So I can trim the structure down to bring the plate up, and
get a closer tolerance if I want.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The upper decks got a good sanding, and a couple of coat of laquer.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

One of the catwalks built up.

0.030x 0.040 styrene strips

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Two of these Kitty walkways mess with the video lens of a digital camera...Honest guys, these are straight!!:D

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Catwalks ready to be installed.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

carboard railing mockups

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Got the propeller guard finished, and the hull painted.
Of course while admiring it, I realized that I forgot to cut out for the "under pier" fire monitors in the stern. :rolleyes:

It should be no problem once the paint has a good cure.
Baby steps, Someone should provide instructions for scratch built boats.

I will have it on display at the Eugene model train expo this weekend.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The Railings being built up from .030 styrene and installed.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The two forward/reverse servos (one for each drive) fitted into the servo bridge. I drew up the servo mounts and pre measured the height of all the parts before put the wood into the saw.
The came out exactly how I planned them. :cool:

Now I have to hope that's exactly where I want them.:eek:

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well the servo mounts were about 5mm too high because I added a block to level the longitudinal mounting bracket. Nothing that a few bent control rods couldn't fix. It seems to be controlling quite normally. I need to get it out to the pond for some sea trials though.

Mean while back on the deck,...
Top of the rail, and the Bollards are being created.
They are drilled and mounted 6mm down thru the sub deck so that
if I tie any barges off to them, the won't be ripped off the deck. :rolleyes:

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

One of the "under pier fire monitor" locations. These are two locations in the hull that I should have cut before I painted. However a little Xacto blade work and some glue and sanding can do wonders.

[Bisquine]

Very nice,

Keep posting pictures :)

[mike_victoriaBC]

Hi Umi:
Looks good - I see that you inverted these servos rather than in between down low. I guess the other two are mounted in those openings? I've not advanced quickly at all. I did cut out a mount from lexan but I'm still hesitant to glue the works in!!
I heard from a Seattle modeller that the fellow there has some problems using the regular servos - he's torn the gears out on one from vibration - any thoughts on that?

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well it might be a good idea to purchase metal gear servos then. The other option is to replace the existing gears with metal gears.
I heard they did some work on his boat, and I saw the old servo tray in a friends shop.
But we were working on a different project, and didn't discuss my fire boat.

I have a feeling that the boat will be in the water next week, so I will let you know how things run.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I had two interior architectural models to work on this month, and have started on a third. Plus a two day combat event this weekend and the Portland Regatta coming up this weekend. Too much busy, no time. :(

On the Deck of the fire boat are four water "manifolds".
Essentially "fire hydrants" in case the boat is required to pump to hoses on shore.

These are a pair of castings of the front and rear manifolds, and a couple of the valves, along with the original masters. I wasn't going to cast these, but Tachikaze is trading me motors for my "Akikaze" destroyer for fireboat parts. :rolleyes:

It's blackmail I tell you... :mad:

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The fire boat got wet this weekend.
It took the weight of two 12volt 7ahr batteries to get it down to near the waterline. it still needed some trim and was heavy to the bow. The first thing I notced, was that the starboard drive began leaking water around the mounting sea. It was quick, but good enough to run for the day.

The control arrangement I built worked fine. However even with the control arms at the smallest possible throw on the servos, I could only move the stick 50 percent before reaching the maximum throw on the drives.
So I will probably be building the brass mounting bars shown in the
Parat Voith-Schneider tug construction thread. (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166844&page=5&pp=15) Also, I have the motors turned out about 45 degrees out from the centerline. The mounting instructions say to mount the engines directly ahead or behind the drives, but since it is a 360 degree thurst engine I didn't think it would matter. It doesn't. ;) There were no problems controlling the drives with the engines mounted 45 degrees out.

After one run there was not enough water in the boat to worry about. So I left it in the boat. Later in the day One of our bouys got out into deep water, and since I was running the boat again, I went after it. I managed to back the fire boat up to the bouy and push it in close enough for someone to get the bouy. The boat in full forwarad or reverse handles pretty much like a propeller and rudder drive. However the Voith Schneider drives still proove to be interesting to control. It is highly manueverable and the thrust vectors are infinetly proportional. Either by blade pitch or by rpms. I was able to crawl right up to a model of the Titanic and push it into the dock. At full throttle and forward on the drives the Fireboat is quick and creates an impressive wake.

It is very inspiring to run the boat, and I want to skip work, and concentrate on finishing it. Ah well, one piece at a time. :rolleyes:

[mike_victoriaBC]

Hi Umi - I left you a post on the other site but in thinking it over - do we need 12v? Perhaps 6v gives the same result without the heat. I have those 540's in my other boats running on 6v - speed controls seem ok in them. Only thing is the hull is so much larger here.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well my impression is that the gear reduction across the belt drive is such that you would significantly reduce the preformance by reducing the voltage.
Since the drives only require a forward only speed control I was thinking that I might be able to find a good r/c car ESC that would handle the voltage since reverse is not required.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

A nice shot of the bow wake at best possible speed.
I don't think it would look as good at half speed or 6 volts.

I really need to stop working and spend some time on this boat. :(

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Ok, after 8 weeks of nothing but architectural models, I jumped in and tackled one of those, "I don't wanna do it jobs." on the fire boat.
Masking and painting the railings. I am also working on some more castings for detail parts. We need 32 of those valves. :o

One of five architectural models.

Painted Railings.

[MeBluEyz99]

Beautiful boat even better r/c modeler you are....

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I think I have the bridge work done.
The only thing I have to work out is the air intake vents at the back of the bridge. Add a couple access doors and window glass and maybe this part is finished.

The uptake structure
Finished main uptakes for the diesel exhaust.

[Ronson2k]

Disreguard (repeat of an earlier post)

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

All the bridge windows are in, the uptakes are done, and the hose valves are cast, painted, and assembled.

[Beez]

Umi, did you solder the exhaust stacks or glue them. I have some angled exhaust stacks on my tug that I silver soldered and in the move the tops snapped off. Now I must glue them somehow because I fear the heat of a torch will ruin the fiberglass and paint nearby. I think epoxy will be fine but I need suggestions on a way to increase the gluing area. --Brad

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The brass is silver soldered. And the stacks slide into a larger brass tube, as they have to be moved so that I can take the roof off of the pilot house.

I would sugggest you get some epoxy putty, rough up the inside of the brass tubes, and fill the top and bottom sections with some of the putty, sand it flush with the end edge of each tube, and then glue. That way you will have the entire tubular crossections to adhere to each other.

Umi

[Beez]

Great idea! Thank you.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Added the vents, railings, and doors to the main deck house, and got a prototype fire monitor built up. Now I just need to rig one of the pumps for testing. :)

Edit
I got a good start on the bridge tower today.

Aug, 14 @ the Portland Regatta.
I got some good maneuvering time in, and got to push a barge around, and some practice time in at getting the drives to "crab" the boat sideways.
I still have to meter down the throw on the VSD contol arms so I have to be really careful with the controls. I am only using about 15 percent of the throw.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

We went sailing the other day, and someone mad a comment that was just too funny not to attempt.

This is what I want the fire boat to do on the pond. :D :D :D

[Bisquine]

Umi
Do you where can I find picture of a spayer that I would like to instal on my PARAT.

Bisquine

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Umi
Do you where can I find picture of a spayer that I would like to instal on my PARAT.

Bisquine

Well I am not sure I understand the question. I thought that the Parat, by Graupner came with a set of Fire Monitors for installation on the model. I am not sure if the Parat is an actual boat or not, so I cannot say who manufactured the fire monitors that are represented on the model.

I believe a lot of the current fire monitors on marine vessels may be supplied by
"Skum", tyco safety products. (http://www.skum.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=32)
The Parat would probably be a Fifi III system three of these FJM series monitors.
Model FJM-150.pdf click save, or open. (https://www.ansul.com/AnsulGetDoc.asp?FileID=8339)
Model FJM-200.pdf - click save, or open (https://www.ansul.com/AnsulGetDoc.asp?FileID=8340)

There were plenty of images of the old Parat thread.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166844&page=4&pp=15&highlight=parat

I believe that the one people are installing is the ,Graupner Fire monitor 393
http://www.shop.graupner.de/webapp/commerce/command/ExecMacro/Graupner/macros/main.d2w/report?lang=en&show_cat=5445

Harbor models sells some alternative monitors made by Robbe
http://www.harbormodels.com/Harbormain/Templates/m12.htm

[Bisquine]

Umi.

Thanks for the information. To clarify the think I bough a PARAT from Graupner and I would like to add more feature on it.
So I am planning to have an antipollution systems which will consist of two rigid pipe going outside of the boat and where the dispersant liquid will come throught (like the system used on Aircraft ).

Bisquine

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Just a small Update
I have had a lot of work, and other things come up and it has really put a dent in my modeling time. These are the two fire monitors that will be on top of the pilot house, and four of the five smaller monitors soldered and ready for some finish work. I just realized, I need five of those little "pillows". :(
This is one of two sets I have made for the fire boats.

[mike_victoriaBC]

Greetings to All! Other activities dampened the building time. Finally took the hull to the pond today for a test run before setting the deck in place. Discovered I've wired the two servos controlling forward/reverse so that both blades turn in the same direction - didn't like going forward. Also 10 minutes of testing yielded about 2-3 tablespoons of water. It didn't look as if it came from a bad seal (I used a silicon gasket sealer rather than the material provided) but possibly up the mainshaft. Has anyone else had this problem and what might be a solution?
I'd post photos but still trying to sort out conversion to an e-mail size.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The only leak I had came for around the seal.
Pulling the drive out, and re-setting the seal mastic solved my problem.
Unfortunatley the only way to tell where the water is coming from is to set the boat in the pond, or bath, and watch for the water to appear. If it is up on top of the drive housing you may have a leak over and through the shaft.

There are fins on top fo the drive housing radiating out from the shaft, so any water that gets on top of the disc will be spun to the out side edge and away for the shaft. It is hard to imagine the water getting to the shaft and up over the housing.

__________________________________________________ ______________


Image sizing;
Some of the members on another board were recommending some software to resize images. Corel Draw and Adobe Photoshop work well.
There were also some free image sizers recommended. I have Photoshop, so I haven't tried these,...
http://www.imageresizer.com/download.php

http://www.gifworks.com/cgi-bin/gifworks.pl

[Ghost 2501]

Umi, compared to a standard prop and rudder set up, obviouysly the VS drive is going to be more manouvrable. but is it any more efficient or less efficient thann the standard set up of propeller and rudders????

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well I am not an engineer, but the Voith Schneider drives have to be much more efficient than a propeller and rudder combination. When you turn a rudder, probably 20-30% of the thrust is still directed past the rudder linear to the center line of the boat. The VS drives can provide direct thrust 360 degrees around the drive. Only a Z-drive could possibly come close to that kind of thrust vectoring, and a Z drive would have to spin 180 degrees to reverse thrust, a VS drive just changes the blade angle.

I am not sure how they hold up power and torque wise, I haven't had a chance to do any bollard pulls with the model. The graupner drives can only vary the angle of the blades about 20 degrees from neutral. There is a gentleman in Vancouver BC that has designed a model drive that can double that angle of attack and increase the "power" of the model drive units.

As for the real drives, perhaps some reading will help understand the dynamics of the drive system, or maybe even a visit to a VS drive boat. The "Sound of Sleat" ferry boat is supposed to have been running the Gourock - Dunoon route for several years.
Her last reported owners is Western Ferries, and she may still be sailing the Clyde.

Reading
http://www.sva-potsdam.de/news/Voith_SVA_DEF.pdf

http://www.marinelog.com/DOCS/PRODS/MMIVprod0310.html

http://www.marcon.com/marcon2c.cfm?SectionGroupsID=27&SectionListsID=27&PageID=721

[Ghost 2501]

well as I live in the UK, a trip to the clyde isnt out of the realms of feasability. I cant wait however to tow with my Southampton :) send me some pix when ya tug is complete. :)

[mike_victoriaBC]

Thanks Umi
I guess it's off to the test tank (tub). I used a high-tech silicon gasket seal rather than the mastic - gave the units a twist to seat the seal. I didn't notice the water in the hull while it was sitting, only after running it. I think I have the port servo wired backwards which didn't allow it to run forward. I'm using the servo hookups that the Vanc. fellow sorted out rather than the rods that came with the units. He's done up about 5 pages of geometry including showing the revised parts.

I have to use probably 4 12v batteries just to get the hull down in the water, otherwise any breeze will have it competing in a sailing regatta!

[mike_victoriaBC]

It's a good thing I'd not glued the deck on yet! Three visits to the test tank -first showed water sneaking between the ring and the hull - a few hits with the thin CA seemed to fill any gaps from the original seating using 30 min epoxy. Second visit showed a small leak along the ring/silicon seal. I'd neglected to reseat the screws an extra turn after sealing them for fear of over tightening them. Third visit I left the hull for an hour - no sign of water.
Now it's time to replace the servo plate and start again.
I think I'll place a frame unit in the hull to keep the batteries off the hull bottom as well. It'll take 4 batteries for weight to get it down to a reasonable waterline.
Now, if I could locate photos of the wheelhouse and main deck superstructure!
I've attached (hopefully) photos showing my revamped linkage and the box housing the receiver - wiring needs tweaking yet.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Mike,
Sounds like you thoroughly stopped all the leaks.
I would make one powered run before you seal everything in, just one more check for leaks. Or make the deck a "shoe box" top. Glue a strip of wood or plastic all the way around the deck so that it just fits snuggly over the hull like the top of a shoe box. Then you can get back in any time, just in case a wire comes loose or something.

I was wondering what that "Robbe servo delay" unit is, sitting in your dry box.
Does that limit the servo throw? Or does it just slow the servo movement?

I was also thinking that you could just move one of the control rods to the opposite side of the servo to "reverse" the throw, but I can see that would require you to shift the mounting point to get the requred alignment.

Nice mounting bracket by the way,... :)

[mike_victoriaBC]

Hello Umi
I originally planned to seal the deck & hull joint as the deck overlaps - now I'm considering some type of rubber seal and screw through the two using small stainless screws. There will be a rubbing strip along there anyway. Unless it's out in a terrific wind the water splashing up that high could be minimal.

The two steering (left/right) servos connect into the delay unit slowing down in theory the action of the arc of travel of the Voith arm. It's been suggested I add a plastic disc to the radio to limit the travel as well.

Reversing the servo - hopefully the radio allows me to reverse the wires. I have to be cautious with the others though so as to not damage the two speed controls.

This is becoming a learning experiance....

Just making a base for the batteries to sit on, possibly to the Pond tomorrow for a further test...

[ol'guy]

I have a Dumas 45" f/g Hull for their Shelly Foss tug that has been sitting in it's box, in my garage, for the last 20+ years. I haven't had the guts to cut nor drill a hole in it yet. Time has come to do something with it soon.

Over the years I've been toying with differnt types of porpulsion system for it, a Vort Nozzles system, and if so the rotating type of stationary ones w/rudders, Standard prop/rudder set up or this VS system but I didn't think I woud ever be able to get my hands on them....'till now. How many of these things do you guys think I would need operate at about scale speed? This hull takes about 40 lb. to bring it to water line. If two, would put them side by side as shown in the photo above or one fore and one aft, equal distance from the center of gravity. If three, would you put two as above photo fore and one on the center line aft? Four would be out of my range!

How do you figure the best location for them, would they be placed at the center of gravity to be most effecent? Also, are the 2 servos connected to the horz. push rods, hooked up togeter (y-connecter) to the receiver and the vert. the same way?

One last question, I understood that one of the advanages of the VS system is that the blades rotate at a constant speed, as the configure of the blades determine the speed and direction, therefore you would not need an ESC? It sounds like you have an ESC for each motor.

I know that the VS wouldn't be to scale, but you can't see what's under the boat, right?

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The easiest refit for a Shelly Foss would probably be a nice set of Z-drives.
pictured near the bottom of the Harbor Models page http://www.harbormodels.com/Harbormain/Templates/m18-motors.htm
There is also the new "Tri-Z" tugs being built that you could model the drive arrangement after. http://www.thegreatlakesgroup.com/Tugz%20Awarded%20Port%20Everglades%20Franchise.htm

But with some skeg/keel modifications, I don't see why the VS drives couldn't be fit into the boat. Two would be plenty for a tug boat. The only ships that have four units are some of the larger ferry boats in Europe. The push rods and servos are connected exactly how you describe.

The Speed controls are not necessary, but they give a much finer level of control over the speed and torque when you are approaching a tow, or the dock.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Trying to push the "stand pipes along.
The first section is bent brass tubing, to allow water up to the fire monitors in that location. The run along the side of the deck house is non functional.
The difficulty here is making all the plumbing connections break away from the deck and hull below. I hope to get them to slide off of the telescoping brass tube. There will be at least 4-5 connections from the deck to the deck house. :confused:

[RGinCanada]

Umi,
This is a fantastic build! I've seen your level of expertise, so I hesitate to offer a suggestion, but...

Is there any room to build a manifold in the deck house? Then you could supply all the runs from the manifold (through the side of the deck house), and the piping down to the deck would be non-functional.The manifold could be supplied with a single flexible feed.

(Here's my kindergarten sketch:)

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Actually, I have been thinking about that RG.
Thanks for making it look simple. The four smaller monitors can be supplied from one line. The plan was to use three pumps. One for the main monitor, one pump for the two on top of the deck house, and one pump for the four corner and the stern monitor.
So it could be possible to cut it down to three connections rather than four. However if you look at the location of the right side, it will fall in the stair well. But it might be possible to locate the input somewhere along the vertical.
Hmmm.

[RGinCanada]

Umi,
I'm looking forward to seeing pics of this boat in action when those three pumps are spooled up :D.

I was thinking about this some more, (as in, cool, working monitors.. I should build something with some working monitors!). Connecting to a manifold through the deckhouse wall will certainly present a soldering challenge if nothing else. (ie How to make the connection and not melt the wall) (and yes, I completely missed the stairwell) :o

When you say you plan on using telescoping tubing for the connections, how are you planning on keeping the joint together? wouldn't the water pressure force them apart, or at least cause serious leaks? I'm probably missing something.

Ray

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I am relying on weight and friction, and the fact that the connections will be eccentric and not all slide off evenly. I don't expect that much pressure, or seepage at the connections,.. or do I,.. it is all experimental. :D

See you only think I know what I am doing.

[RGinCanada]

Having seen samples of your work, I suspect you are being overly modest.

I'll throw out one more "what if" only because I need to get it out of my head so I can continue with the project I am currently working on.

What if...
Only a stub poked through the deckhouse wall on the vertical run, and a piece of surgical tubing slipped over the stub on the inside providing the supply from the pump? It might be a lot easier to "plumb" throughout...

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I have some short lengths of vinyl tubing that we have been using to test the pumps and set up the main monitor. I will probably use it to plumb the majority of the boat. But the connections between the main deck and the monitors above need to be some kind of hard point. I hope to have a quick disconnect at each line so that when I remove the main deck I can leave the hoses behind.

[LtDoc]

Umi,
It will depend on the pressure of the pumps of course, but it would seem that a 'push on' hose and metal tube connection should be tight enough for the deck house/hull plumbing connections. (I'm guessing that you plan to use one of the 'bilge' pumps you use with your 'combat' boats, and I have no idea what pressures they can genrate.) Unless you plan on a very long monitor stream, I don' think more than 5 - 6 pounds of pressure would be necessary, if that much! A 'push on' connection should be able to handle that easily. That would allow the plumbing to be hidden inside the deck house, and the exposed plumbing to be non-functional and reduce weight too.
- 'Doc

I'm a better 'brain surgeon' than plumber, so take that for what it's worth...

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Hi LtDoc,

The vinyl hose does press fit and stay, but for battery change outs and public viewing I wanted to be able to disconnect the hoses without pullin or pushing on the connections. Tachikaze has a patient that works with "hydro" applied hardware, and we are going to hit him up for some help here.

I mentioned it early in the thread, however, these are the pumps we are intending to use. They are recast and modified Aquarium pumps.
The bilge pumps we use, in our combat ships, will pump 45 gallons an hour.
The modified aquarium pumps will move almost 350 gallons an hour each.
We have been able to create a 3/16" water stream from that volume,that will shoot about 10-12 feet, or almost four boat lengths. My goal was to exceed the little squirt gun stream you see on most model boats and maintain a "super soaker" value on water distribution.

:p

[RGinCanada]

The quality and care you've taken throughout this build is astounding. (Scratch built hull, casting the VS drive mounts, the custom built pumps, those funky exhaust uptakes, the scratch built monitors, etc etc etc). I can't wait to see how you elegantly solve the remaining puzzles!! When do you expect to soak your first innocent bystander?

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

RG,
I think you peer through to my sense of humor...The first official soaked bystander may occur as early as this June. The kids at the pond always discover the boats that "squirt", and are waiting at the side of the pond saying, "Squirt me, Squirt me." That is where I intend to intervene...http://www.starshipmodeler.net/cgi-bin/phpBB2/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif

[RGinCanada]

Does anyone else hear that voice saying, "Come a lee-tle closer... just a lee-tle closer.... "?

Of course with a combined throughput of over 1000gph, I suspect your range may be a little better than most of the boats that "squirt" :D You know, to see the look on their faces from the right perspective, I think maybe wireless on-board video should be budgeted for....

Will the monitors be individually controlled, or each of the pumps, of will it be an all-or nothing scenario? (I just re-read the entire thread, and I don't recall seeing this detail)

[Knotaddicted]

Umi, not sure if you haven't thought of this or not, but I'll throw in my 2 cents any way. For the pipe to the pump, the top would need to be beveled in a little, and the pipe for the deck plumbing would be flared, with a recess area for the o-ring to stay seated. This is used on fuel line for cars (Ford quick connect) but with a spring lock. Unless you will be running 45lbs. or more it should stay put. I have included my kindergarden attempt of a diagram that might help.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

When you cut the tubing with a tubing cutter it slighlty compresses the tube at the end of the cut. To keep them telescoping, i come back and create a slight flare on the inside edge with an X-acto, or small pipe reamer.
My difficulty with the o-ring system was how to acutally produce the seat. I don't have a tool to do that, and did not want the bulge to show on the stand pipes. I thought about layers of tubing spaced in side one another, but didn't want to build up, or reduce the diameter of my stand pipes too much from scale. I am hoping that the tolerance between K&S brass tubes is tight enough to prevent water flow over 1-2 inches of overlap.

What I think I may do, is use the two stand pipes I have, and run the third and fourth lines much like RGinCanada was suggesting for supply lines. I will use those for out put, and run them in the deck house to the two small forward monitors.

For the monitors on top of the pilot house, I can run one flexible line with a quick connect, and for the main front monitor, I will keep it detached from the deck house, and it will twist lock into place. It will be one of those "key" pieces that will have to be removed prior to removing the deck house.

[mike_victoriaBC]

Hi Umi
Been out of touch buried in work. A lot has taken place! Without recasting a pump - any suggestions of 'off the shelf' guys? A few go-fast boats and their owners could use a 'wash' once in awhile at our pond.
One of my great cats recently tried to bench press one of my boats, not happy with her when it fell to the floor.
Stopped the leak though - was in the seating of one unit in the housing - seems ok.
Just need to conjure up a plan for the superstructure level between deck & wheelhouse and it'll look better.
Good luck with the pumps.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Sorry to hear the cats are giving your boat a work out.
That just happened at Tachikaze's work shop also. On of his cats gave what for to the bridge of his Italian DD.

It's good to hear you stopped the leak Mike. I was worried that mine would seat right if I pulled it out. I know you siliconed your drives in, however for me, it was just a matter of redistributing the putty. And that putty doesn't want to let go. Most people use windshield washer pumps to run fire monitors. I am trying to figure out how to produce and cast these "SKUM" monitors, as no one seems to produce them, and it seems like people would want some updated monitors, instead of the dated ones Graupner and Robbe still sell. Post some pics of your superstucture when you get it started.

This seems like my solution to the plumbing connections.
It will only require one quick connect to the Bridge top Skum Monitors. when I am through. the original connections I created for the rear monitors will do double duty to the two small front corner monitors on the deck house.

The connections will be puttied out, and repainted white when I am done.
The roll up door will cover most of the ad hoc connection through the back of the deck house. I also got a good start on the snorkel ladder.
For now I head into a couple more Architectural models. No boats for six weeks I think.... :rolleyes:

[RGinCanada]

Six weeks?! :( Just when it was getting good...

Good luck with the architectural models

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Well I spent three evenings designing and building a pump mount for the fire boat. Originally I had planned to mount all the pumps parallel with the bottom of the boat, and below the water line. However the motors were sitting above the deck line where I wanted to place them.
So Instead I epoxied a mounting block with a couple of blind nuts underneath, to the bottom of the boat. Then created an aluminium bracket for the three pumps. I mounted the main pump for testing, and the results were pretty good.

[RGinCanada]

Its alive!! Good to see :) That range is impressive! Was it around what you expected?

With only one pump of three pumps online that boat is phenominal! When all three are going, the pond will be drained if you're not careful where you aim :)

I'm sitting here thinking how much I'd like to get my thumbs on that transmitter :D ...

Thanks for the update!!

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

The pump performed as expected. Run time on the 4ahr battery was less than expected, however it may not have been fully charged.

What was impressive, was that the boat would move backward, as if under power, whenever the fire monitor was turned on. I had to set the propulsion blades to slightly forward to hold the boat in place. And this is with the vinyl tubing somewhat crimped as it made the 90° bends into the pump, and up to the monitor.
I bought some spring stock to surround the hose and stop the crimping.
And I will plastic tie all the connections to prevent water leaks or an accidental hose dissconnect in the boat.

The water that landed on the deck was also less than expected.
I will get some more stick time this weekend at the regatta in Bellevue, WA.

Umi

[RGinCanada]

the boat would move backward, as if under power, whenever the fire monitor was turned on.
So, it would appear you need the aft monitors working REAL soon to provide balance and properly maintain position ;)

How do you have the transmitter rigged to run this boat? I'm not sure anyone who's built a VS drive boat has posted here about how the sticks relate to the drives. Where do the pumps fit in?

Have fun at the regatta!

Ray

[mike_victoriaBC]

hello Umi - where does one find a comparable pump - I've not quite got a grip on casting, etc. I did try a typical 12v windshield washer pump but perhaps didn't have it low enough in the hull.
Hi RG - I've read/looked at photos, still get the sticks screwed up on my VS drives! The phrase 'trial & error' comes to mind.....

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

We had a small display at the Molalla RC association, I get the impression they want us to fly planes. :p

Try the pump in the sink, and see how it primes. That will dictate how it gets mounted in the boat. It may be that you want to put the intake on the side of the boat, and place the pump low. Mine are mounted so that the centerling of the pump is below the waterline. So they actually gravity prime.
There were some pump suggestions just this week so quite a few ideas there.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398825

RG, you probably saw the Voith drive thread where my control system was described. If not, here's a link ;) http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391048