The future of Free Flight?

[BMatthews]

It's a lazy morning as I sit with my coffee so I'd like to start up a, I hope, provocative thread..... :D

Everywhere we fly these days FF is falling prey to the Big Squeeze. Sure there's exceptions like Lost Hills, the desert around Las Vegas and my own Hart's lake prairie in Washington State. But I think it's safe to say that we FF'ers need to be a very dedicated band to access any sort of decent site where we can ply our craft. Certainly the competitions at the FAI level require so much space that we see the same few field being used time and again as there's just not that many options.

So what's a guy to do if they just can't spare the time to journey to "distant lands" to find a field that's big enough and, more importantly, they can get PERMISSION to fly their toy airplanes?

And lets not forget that with flying out in these distant areas it's hard to entice new blood into the sport. I love my FF but it's no secret that the average age of the typical FF'er is getting up there and there's just not very much new blood coming in to fill the vacumn.

It's my opinion that the future of FF is in the hands of those who fly the smaller categories. Indoor, Flying Aces, CO2 duration and the new smaller electric duration. Even the smaller duration contest types may not be able to fly in tighter confines. But even these categories use up a lot of room (other than indoor) because they are still consumed with the concept of duration.

We, as a group, need to break away from this obsession with duration and find new avenues for FF. Spot landings, time target and short course rubber and electric speed racing all come to mind as possible events for tighter confines. Sure there's sport flying but human nature being what it is many of us just can't stand the thought of no competition..... even if it's just for bragging rights.

I used to think that smaller models like Bostonians were the answer but with their accent on light weight and duration they are still very capable of specing out and using up a whole lot of real estate if they catch a thermal.

Now I'm not saying here that we need to all give up our large field duration flying but I think that there's room for some smaller field close in stuff that can be flown in parks that have a couple of soccer pitches or baseball diamonds sitting side by side. I see the large field "classic" events as more for special occasions a few times each year and the small field stuff as weekly "bread and butter" flying.

And it's the local weekly stuff that will help to attract attention of the new breed that we need.

So I'll just put on my Nomex underwear and stand back from my keyboard now to avoid being consumed by the flames, shall I....... :D

[Terry Lyttle]

Like many freeflighters, I dread stopwatches, I find there is enough challenge just getting some of my designs to fly. Even the effort of getting a Guillows kit to fly is often enough for me, maybe that is an idea for a "contest":D . If one must compete, particularly on a small field, then clearly spot-time is the idea.

I keep chirping about Ebenezer Scale because of its simplicity both of the models and the rules. If there ever was a way of attracting "new blood" into freeflight, that has to be it, simply because the models are recognisable as real aircraft, profile or not.

The other drum I like to bang is the E-Charger toys. The power unit is CHEAP, and the possibilities are endless, including scale, endurance, etc. Even Air Hogs are a viable source for a basic powerplant, both of these replacing the noisy (and now expensive) Cox engines which drives modellers out of parks (mowers are fine, but model engines? Noise pollution!). Rubber can be complicated particularly if the LHS is not cooperative.

As long as we end up benefitting from the toy industry, the future of freeflight is still bright.

[BMatthews]

Originally posted by Terry Lyttle
.... Even the effort of getting a Guillows kit to fly is often enough for me, .....

If you can get a stock Guillows kit to actually support itself on something as tenuous as air then you're a better man than I Gunga Din.... :D

Out of the 12 or so Guillows model kits I built in my early teens the only one that actually significantly varied from a standard ballistic curve was the later day Fairchild F24 of 24 or so inch wingspan. But even that one was doomed by the pine wheels that weighed about as much as the rest of the model.

In a perfect world we wouldn't need to actually compete. The past few years I've often gone to my Old Timer meets and just flew what and when I wanted to under the guise of "testing" and got away with it. Mind you I'd enter an even or two just to help the group with a few bucks.

Rubber flying isn't as bad as it looks at first glance. Sure there's all that setup for winding but the lack of noise and the relative simplicity has a certain lure for me. The big key to success seems to be the nose block construction. Especially for the larger models that need freewheeling or folding props.

[KnifeEdge51]

The only models I've ever flown are Guillows. :D The first didn't fly under power because I had not yet learned (or I didn't yet understand) the importance of prop angle. It glided wonderfully, though. At first, I also just taped the cowl on, so it would glide just right, but climb horibbly under power because the cowl would get pulled up under the rubber bands tension. After numerous crashes, I deemed it a lost cause. :)

My current venture is a 17" Mustang that fly wonderfully until I broke the rubber band a few days ago and it tore through most of the formers. :( But I've got a 24" Super Cub on the way that'll be electric and much lighter (with a fixed cowl!). I don't see what's so bad about them other than how much sanding has to go into them. :D

Oh yeah, what's Ebenezer Scale? Oh, wait, I just got into Peanut, maybe you shouldn't tell me for fear I'll get hooked on it too! :D Actually, go ahead and let me have it!

Nick R.

[BMatthews]

Ebenezer stuff is a class of model that are usually glow powered with profile fuselages and all sheet wings and tail. If it takes you more than one evening to build one other than decorating then you don't deserve to own an Xacto knife.... :D

Kudos, points and general smiles are earned for cute caricature like designs. The odder the better. The Ebenezer name stems from the original small bipe of that name designed by....... <brain fart>..... nutz, I can't think of it just now but he's a Yank that published it in the British aeromodeller magazine and the whole movement took off like an FAI power job over there. The Brits, being british, assigned the original model's name to the whole movement (they call vacumn cleaners "hoovers" as a generic term) and that's where we are stuck now.

So it's sort of an oxymoron that the Ebenezer scale movement for profile scale models is named after a very non scale sport free flight jobbie. Go figure....

As for your Guillow experience all I can say is that they must actually have started using balsa sometime after the 60's. Either that or you two are too good to associate with the likes of me that couldn't make any of mine fly in any sort of recognizable manner.

[Terry Lyttle]

I just lamgolsg or whatever...

It could be that Guillows eventually tried balsa, but I have seen no evidence of that to date. I have a SBD kit, and the only advantage over previous kits is the SIZE. With that much air in the structure the lumber just doesn't matter. I found this to be the case withan old Veron Matador that I built and flew decades ago: the wood had to be spruce or pine, yet it flew exceptionally well; I hated to get rid of it.

So, the problem has to do with SIZE, it would seem. It may be worth while to expand the Guillows plans by 1.5 or 2, build using the same wood dimensions, and using a larger prop and rubber, or in a pinch, resort to slime. My bet (for the SBD) is electric, maybe GWS, but without all the molded plastic bits. LIGHT, LIGHT, LIGHT, and it should be a good freeflighter.

BTW, my build list iincludes an Aeronca, 50" span, rubber power. One of these days....

[steve lewin]

When I were a lad we'd didn't have Guillows kits over here in jolly old England but they sound a lot like the old Keil Kraft kits. I never got any of those to fly either.

The wood came in 2 grades soggy or rock. All bits you needed to bend were made of rock and all the bits that had to be fairly rigid were made of soggy. Any of this sound familiar ?

Course I don't suppose it was helped by the fact that everyone ignored the boring Cubs and Austers and went straight for the Spitfires and 109s ;).

To return to the subject for a sec, I reckon most of the future for FF, especially in this country, is indoors in the winter though even there the tiny remote (radio or infra red) controlled planes are starting to encroach. Outdoors it's simply to difficult to find anywhere to fly. Plus I came away from my early FF experiences with the firm impression that if you ever had a really good flight that guaranteed you'd never see that model again. The only ones you hold onto are the ones that glide like bricks so at least they end up in the same field (though possibly in rather a lot of bits). Those old KK models excelled at that, they never flew away :(.

Steve

[KnifeEdge51]

Actually, a lot of the wood Guillow uses is like lead: it weighs alot, but you can make it into any shape you want with a little effort. :D Plenty of the pieces I've gotten in their kits break, making me either cut my own, or repair the broken piece. :mad: But, it all looks nice in the end. Perhaps I've just gotten the lighter grades of "lead," eh?:D

Nick R.

[peteypete]

BTU's-That's where Guillows leads the pack.Naw, I'm just being a wise guy,we should give them credit for hangin' in this hobby for so long.....well it's almost zero outside and time to load the wood stove...hee hee!

[KnifeEdge51]

I agree. They've been around for quite a while, and they got me hooked on the hobby, so I have something to thank them for. :D But I just recently found out what "contest grade" balsa feels like, only because I'm starting a scratch project. :D

Nick R.

[peteypete]

It was my first kit also....heavy wood, heavy hands,and heavy tissue,and when it flew for about 40 ft. at 2 ft. off the deck, I thought I found the meaning of life(and still do)!

[Terry Lyttle]

You guys...
In Canada it was just as easy to get a Kiel/Veron kit as it was to get Comet or Guillows. The Britkits were just the same as Guillows, just different models, Lysanders, Seamews, Percivals &c, but the wood all came from the DIY yard. Comet was better, but when real kits started to show up, I couldn't understand why EVERYbody wasn't building rubber models. Peck was/is producing kits that required a real effort to stay in sight, as are a number of quality kitmakers.

Trust me guys Things are Better now!

[KnifeEdge51]

Pardon my ignorance, but, what's the DIY yard???:)

I'm looking forward to trying a Peck model. :D I've still got a Guillow model on the table, as well as a Cessna 172 of theirs waiting to get built as well. :D Perhaps one of them will actually give me satisfactory performance. :D

Nick R.

[steve lewin]

Tricky these English to English translations. I guess DIY (Do-it-yourself) yard translates to lumber yard. DIY is English English for messing about with your house, putting up shelves and that sort of thing. I can never remember what Americans call this peculiar affliction, Home something ?

I've just started on a Peck Lacey and I also have a Jodel kit. The wood is actually quite reasonable and even the printwood has relatively thin lines on it so you have some idea of where you're supposed to be cutting. Printwood looks wonderfully old-fashioned but it's still better than some of the truely horrible die-crushing that you see. Even I can do a better job than that ;).

Just got to work out how to do a neat covering job now. That was never one of my strong points.

Steve

[BMatthews]

Originally posted by peteypete
It was my first kit also....heavy wood, heavy hands,and heavy tissue,and when it flew for about 40 ft. at 2 ft. off the deck, I thought I found the meaning of life(and still do)!

Ah yes, those first early flights. Life was much easier in those days when our definition of success was so simple.....:D

I got into the original designing very early...... my first cut and glued balsa in fact. A simple flat winged glider that flew like a winged angel across the yard. Not a hint of dihedral as I had no idea of it's function or need in those days early in my teens. Grade 6, 12 years old and November 1965.

[peteypete]

Maybe we've found the that the "future of free flight" is in looking at the past and what interested us in the beginning. Could new-commers be put off by the amount of technology,terminology,and competitiveness, that it seems to turn into? Just grab a kit, put it together,and give it a heave, no more no less...simple! That's it , I'm gettin' rid of my high tech tools and equipment, and every piece of balsa that has the word "contest"on it......(well, maybe i"ll keep a few ,just in case).

[Terry Lyttle]

Don't get rid of your Contest stuff, just sand off the label!
Sport models are usually more fun when they are built to contest standard anyhow.

And yes, I remember an early one of my own designs: I spent an afternoon getting the glide Just Right on a delta with Jetex pellet in and out, lit the fuse, and discovered the frustration and elation of losing forever a motor; not the last time either. Predate B.Matthew's experience by around 12 years...

Then my buddy lost his Cleveland Condor (6' glider) after a winter's work, dethermalisers and circle turn were not yet part of our lexicon, but soon.

BTUs:D :D ... Guillows figure that only 5% of the kits sold will ever be completed, another 10% of that will attempt to fly, so success is not a large part of their business plan. Peck, on the other hand, expects that every purchaser will be looking for completion and flight, hence the quality (sorry, I use Peck as generic for many, many kit manufacturers out there who care).

[BMatthews]

Terry, a buddy of mine went through much the same pain as your Condor friend. It was the first ever powered free flight sorta contest model that our group had ever seen. It was a Pee Wee 30 class for the Pee Wee 020 (go figure :D ). No fuses, but it DID have an eyedropper tank. The first 5 second run looked good and it landed in the school ground we were on (are the eyebrows raising yet?). The next flight got a fairly full eyedropper and off she went in fine style.......right into the very first thermal I ever saw a model fly in. Up she went with a troup of young teenagers following underneath for about a 1/4 mile until it drifted over a golf course. The owner dashed up and around to the gate and explained what had happened and came down to the area the rest were at but it was way too late. We had never seen the model come down and it had gone behind some trees in the distance. We talked about that flight for days after.

It could have been worse......... it might have been MY engine on there..... :D

[KnifeEdge51]

Say, there's a question for you! Where DO you cut the line on a Peck kit? I've only seen the printing on their Mustang, and the lines looked kind of thick to me. I was thinking that for the sake of safety and simplicity to just cut about the middle of the line and then slowly sand down until just after the you can't see the line anymore. Is this a good way to do it? (Sorry, I've never built a Peck kit (or anything else like it) before!) Thanks!

Oh, and as for the .020, that truely is a bummer. Those are expensive little buggers now.

Nick R.

[Terry Lyttle]

I usually cut to the middle of the line (or as close as my failing eyesight allows), build the assembly, then sand to an even shape with a block; glue the paper to the block, I find that a quarter-sheet on the appropriate size block using contact cement works best.

Best thermal flight seen? A Voodoo combat model heading skyward after a wrist-crack (before wrist thongs), its 35 howling away for 7-8 minutes, drag of the handle/lines providing perfect balance to tipweight/offset. That blighter was halfway to the moon when the engine quit, took nearly 3/4 hr to come back down, merrily moving from thermal to thermal. Landed 150 yds from "release" point...

[D W]

I too built a Guillows as my first kit. My fourth grade buddy and I worked on a pair of small Hurricanes in his basement. Never finished mine but my buddy threw his together, taped firecrackers to it and doused it with lighter fluid before lighting it up and launching it from a second story window. Didn't even wait for me to see it.
Somehow half building that first kit got me hooked. I went on to build any and all types of aircraft. Was always limited by lack of space though, living right outside NYC. Mostly fly on athletic fields.
Best flight was a profile, sheet balsa, towline glider
that I had built from plans in a large blue hardcover book I took out from the library. Must've been in 5th or 6th grade.
Flew this one many times and it could glide FOREVER. It caught a weak thermal one day at about 50 feet and just made circle after circle slowly moving down the field with no loss of altitude. Finally left field and got hung way up in a pine tree. IT WAS AN AMAZING THING TO SEE. And I was not disappointed to have lost that plane. It gave me such a great feeling...
Nowadays I do R/C Parkflyers. Has been one of my dreams, to be able to control those little stick and tissue planes. Recently convertrd a Dumas Beaver and about to start a 30" Easybuilt Stuka. Feel like a kid again!:)
Still dabble in FF. Currently finishing an Easybuilt MIG 15 for Jetex 50. Played around with the Jetex on a solid balsa glider last summer and had FUN. Also like to 'play' with the zing wings and Florio Flyer folding wing gliders. If you havn't tried these you absolutly should.
I know if I'd had the wide open spaces I'd have done more in FF. It does have a special appeal.

Oh, and if anyone knows the book I mention above, it is a thin, oversized book with a blue cover (photo of a model on cover?)and filled with simple, sheetwood plans, PLEASE PM me with title, etc. Would really like to get one.

[KnifeEdge51]

DW,

Boy, I'd a liked to see that flaming Hurricane too!

I don't think I'll ever really leave FF. It got me started, and I think it'll be with me forever. There are so many different types of FF that you can't help but be addicted to one of them (or all of them for that matter!:p). I'm thinking about stocking up on a bunch of plans, both FF and parkflyer sized R/C, just to have lying around for down the road a ways. It would be kind of cool to give one of them to a son or grandchild and see what they make of it. But that's gonna be a LONG time coming. :D

Nick

[BMatthews]

Sheet balsa towliner eh?..... Did it have the wing mounted on a short pylon and the fuselage and pylon were both made from 1/8 sheet?

Did that same book also have a flying saucer, a canard with a swoopy B29'ish nose on the fuselage, a flying wing with a jet type fuselage and a Jetex boat and car?

Bill Dean did a book like this and I understand that he lived in New York where he ran a book distribution company for modeling related titles for a number of years up until quite recently.

That may have been a copy of the Bill Dean Book Of Balsa Models. And if so then it's available these days but without the car and boat in it. I know because I have a copy.

[D W]

BMatthews,

THAT'S IT!! Man, I could kiss you...;) . I'm gonna try and find a copy.
I don't remember the car or boat but I did build the other two planes you mention.
I'd asked about the book a while back in these forums but got no response.
Thank you so much!
Happy New Year!
I'm off to Amazon.com...:)

[Rifleman]

I gotta tell you guys this one....you ask about a best thermal flight....well for me its been over two hours but under radio control throughout, but thats not the one I want to tell about....I first attended the FAC Nats back in the mid 80's...probably 86. I remember going as only an observer as I was just starting to branch out of indoor to outdoor FF....so I took with me a NoCal P-47 which became my fav warbird,....upon launch with two minute worth of turns it climbed right into a thermal cruised around after the rubber dropped of the prop hook ( putting it in fine glide trim ) drifted around the field a bit and landed only 200 ft from launch point after 15 mins......that was my best one, but yet still not the best I got to see at that venue.....two yrs ago in 2000, on the Saturday morn, I got to see magic.....an American guy who I never got the name of, launched a trim flight with "very few turns"......I know, I know....this is not indoor and you are always suppose to arm your D/T device......well as you can guess, after going into a nice circle about 200 ft wide and only making about 50-75 ft in alt, this thing was on its way back to launch, when on one side of the circle it got a bump. Enough so, that it regained the height of the previous circle........around again and the thermal had not left yet and was still building......bumped again....until when, with the prop freewheeling and the cool fill started to come by, we knew it was going up !....this model climbed up overhead and was tracked by binoculars by many as it made its way all around the general area for an hour before finally entering a cloud overhead ............even though this guy just lost his entry in the upcoming event, he had the biggest smile on his face and had the most talked about flight of the weekend.......very satisfying to see and be a part of.....this was the weekend of the Ford Tri-Motor that is displayed on the FAC web site too, by the way.

[mr.zagi5c]

*resurects awesome thread*

[KnifeEdge51]

Wow. Almost two years since I posted here! And I was 2 minutes over the age of 17 on my last post as well. :)

Anyway, I don't have much time to build, although I'm getting bitten by the bug so bad it almost hurts not being able to throw something together and play with tissue again. :( I'll have to rectify that problem in the next week or two. ;)

Anyway, my best FF flight was with a Harbor Freight electric model. I got the thing trimmed out pretty good and was just fooling around. The best flight my friend and I had on it was about 3 minutes long set in a wide (75'?) left circle. That's about how it was set when I gave it about a minute of charge. It was a pretty warm Arizona summer day, so when I let it go, it caught a thermal almost immediately. I swore it was gone. Must have made it to about 150' to 200' high and held there for about 10 minutes doing lazy circles. It landed about 300 yards from where I launched it, and I couldn't stop smiling for a few hours. I was so afraid my dad would be upset that I lost it, but I figured that if he was, it would be worth it. :)

[TLyttle]

Wheee! I had a contest-design hlg that I was fussing with when a flying buddy showed up. "Can I try?" Sure, launch this way, this angle up, this angle on the wing, launch like a spear, not a baseball. 3 or 4 learning flights, starting to get the idea. Next flight is good, goes into transition, burbles a bit, ain't coming down. 30sec later it is double launch height, heading downwind. I knew what was next, but he didn't, he's heading after it, sure that it will come down, me behind him repeating, "OK, can I have my plane back, please? Scott? can I have my plane back?" The great fun was watching his face going back and forth between "wow, look at that thing go!!" and "man, how do I get it back??". It disappeared over a hill at ~2,000', and I dissolved into laughter at what I had just seen...

[Applehoney]

Well, I've had a P30 sit above me for some 46 minutes whilst I lay in the grass to watch it; odd thing was that it would sometimes come to a complete standstill - no forward movement, prop stationary for a couple of seconds or more before it gradually resumed its glide and the prop started to freewheel again. Complete stasis - never quite worked that one out.

However, decades ago, in England, launched an A/2 at Topcliffe late evening in gentle air... didn't d/t ... vanished. Had a good compass bearing so took a day off work to return and search the downwind area for it, without success. Two or three weeks later I received a postcard from a farmer near Redcar; checked the maps and my bearing was fine; I was just about 75 miles short....

Presume it spent the night boosted by the standing waves over both Sutton Bank and the Hambleton Hills; when retrieved it wasn't in bad shape other than the wing joiners were a little rusted.

[Ian Easton]

KK kits were my staple diet growing up. I never got the scale jobs to fly but did have a bit of success with the gliders - in fact I bought a couple of the plans for KK gliders recently off E-bay for old times sake.
Looking back on one kit a friend and I both built was the KK, control line, Phantom Mite (also known as the Phantom Sh*@%). I clearly remember we would let the plane go and run like heck to keep the lines tight. We would run across about 2 football fields before we ran out of fuel! We would fuel it up and do it again - we were knackered but happy at the end of the day. Also If we stood on the roof of the pumphouse for the swimming pool at the private school grounds we weren't supposed to be in we could get a loop(different model)! We thought that was how control line was supposed to be as neither of us had ever seen one!
I still have the engine from those days. A good old DC Super Merlin which went on to serve me well in FF.

[sturmvogel]

Free flight is magic!! Like you, Bill, I got started in f/f back in the late 40's-early 50's. Luckily I started with Jim Walker's Interceptor 74 hand launch glider, then moved to the Jasco Hawk, then built a Jasco rubber model I can't recall the name of. It had a single blade folder... Aahhhaaaa-the Thermal Traveler... I finally scraped together enough money to buy an Anderson Royal Baby Spitfire .049 and removed the prop and nose block from the Thermal Traveler and pinned/glued a f/w on the front, screwed the .049 on and told all my friends that I had a GAS free flight. Managed to get the engine running and launched it in a large open area east of town. It flew!!!From then on, I bought Jasco kits-the PAA Master, the Liftmaster, the Phoenix Flash, and Others. They flew great, caught some thermals and were lost. There is nothing like a kid, riding a bike a couple miles out of town, going into the tall grass of a field at 6:30 in the morning, and flying models with a buddy until almost noon. That's with less than a pint of fuel, a Burgess dry cell, a couple of props and some repair "stuff' in a bag, and a rag to clean the oil off the fuselage... There was an airport just east of where we flew, and at 7:15 each morning the Air Defense Command used to launch a flight of F-86D's that almost flew right over us at 2-300 feet agl. Magic!!!! I can smell the long grass now... If only I was wealthy enough to buy a few hundred acres, I could do it again. BTW, was it Dave Thornburg that designed the Ebenezer??? I also used to fly a Guillow's SE5 with spruce spars, 1/16" landing gear wire, and an Infant .020. It would take off after about 50 ft on concrete and circle for ~one minute, glide down from at least 40 feet altitude and make a wheel landing. I flew it in a little plaza after they closed at midnight!! It sounds crazy, but was it fun...

[sturmvogel]

Free flight is magic!! Like you, Bruce, I got started in f/f back in the late 40's-early 50's. Luckily I started with Jim Walker's Interceptor 74 hand launch glider, then moved to the Jasco Hawk, then built a Jasco rubber model I can't recall the name of. It had a single blade folder... Aahhhaaaa-the Thermal Traveler... I finally scraped together enough money to buy an Anderson Royal Baby Spitfire .049 and removed the prop and nose block from the Thermal Traveler and pinned/glued a f/w on the front, screwed the .049 on and told all my friends that I had a GAS free flight. Managed to get the engine running and launched it in a large open area east of town. It flew!!!From then on, I bought Jasco kits-the PAA Master, the Liftmaster, the Phoenix Flash, and Others. They flew great, caught some thermals and were lost. There is nothing like a kid, riding a bike a couple miles out of town, going into the tall grass of a field at 6:30 in the morning, and flying models with a buddy until almost noon. That's with less than a pint of fuel, a Burgess dry cell, a couple of props and some repair "stuff' in a bag, and a rag to clean the oil off the fuselage... There was an airport just east of where we flew, and at 7:15 each morning the Air Defense Command used to launch a flight of F-86D's that almost flew right over us at 2-300 feet agl. Magic!!!! I can smell the long grass now... If only I was wealthy enough to buy a few hundred acres, I could do it again. BTW, was it Dave Thornburg that designed the Ebenezer??? I also used to fly a Guillow's SE5 with spruce spars, 1/16" landing gear wire, and an Infant .020. It would take off after about 50 ft on concrete and circle for ~one minute, glide down from at least 40 feet altitude and make a wheel landing. I flew it in a little plaza after they closed at midnight!! It sounds crazy, but was it fun...

[sturmvogel]

There was a move many years ago to "pollute" f/f by having a rcvr and 1 or 2 servos in the plane and starting the engine, putting the transmitter on the ground, launching it for a contest flight, timing until the transmitter was touched. This way smaller fields could be used and the possibility of loss and/or damage to surrounding fields, etc. would be minimized. It probably wouldn't work for FAI or the very competitive classes, but it doesn't sound bad for someone to just enjoy the free flight of your own creation. I just may try it next summer-I've a BMJR Geef 1/2A that I could easily put an FMA rcvr, and at least one micro servo for at least the rudder. That way I could relive my youth without chasing airplanes!!

[The K-man]

Hello all. I am a 15 yr. old kid who awhile back was bitten by the (mostly guillows) modeling bug. My first was the Javelin, which turnned out not to pretty to look at but it flew ok and wasn't too heavy. Then came the Lancer and the Cessna 180. They were pretty good but the Cessna was heavy. Somewhere in between those models a built a peck Stringless Wonderer, Profile Cessna and an easy-built Little Richard. Right now I'm working on the guillows Bird Dog and the easy-built Stitson Reliant. I just wanted to let ya'll know that I'm the only free-flighter in my town that i know of, and that sites like this one and www.smallflyingarts.com continually fuel my interest in modeling. Thanks,
Kyle

[TLyttle]

Yup, it's tough being the only guy in town! No one else to confer with when things go wrong. I am in this position, but I have the luxury of a buddy close by, and ~58yrs of experience. I started out like you, and I value that experience as much as if I was in a big club with lots of mentors. This way is tougher, but the lessons are yours, and the solutions yours. Keep it up!!!

[steelhead]

I liked the idea of RC assisted FREE FLIGHT. That way you'd be able to fly in a smaller field. Hmm.. sounds competitive :)

I started in FF, and i'll probably End in FF. Paper airplane, death bed.... Hmm...

There is something to it. I really enjoy the MINI-STICK rubber (7 inch span) planes. Can fly for 10 minutes in your living room. Cost about 20 cents each :)
Of course- the investment was 50 bucks or so, but wow- what a lot of planes can be covered with microfilm and powered by one baggy of contest 1/16th rubber. I love seeing props spin so slowly.

The future of FREE FLIGHT? So long as a dad (or mom) makes a paper airplane for their kid, and walks to the second story window, there will be FREE FLIGHT.

PS- a second set of plans for a LAMINATED PAPER PLANE is almost done. The last one was well recieved. So go out there, build a FF model and invite the neighbor kid out for some "outside" time.

Dean

[Applehoney]

>was it Dave Thornburg that designed the Ebenezer???

Bert Striegler.

[martin richards]

The enthusiasm was too infectious :rolleyes: But I thought I didn't have anything suitable to build one. Then I spotted a 3 cm board of insulating foam and started to think ...
I cut some strips about 3/16" x 12"and joined them edgeways with strips of double sided adhesive tape and a wing was in the making. It was sanded to a rough aerofoil section, lightly scored in the middle for some dihedral to be bent in. Two similar strips provided more than enough for the tail feathers and that just left me with a fuselage.
The only thing that looked suitable was a length of round polystyrene styrene tube. The same double sided tape fixed mountings for the wing and tailpane. A length of cored solder to balance and it now floats across the living room. If anyone could lend me a 6 or 7-year-old nephew/son, there'd be a flight report from the local park;)

[TLyttle]

That's wehre it starts, alright! I was babysitting (!) my sister's kids for a week or so and I showed them how to build a glider out of cereal boxes: the first one was simple, the next had a triangular fuse and a properly airfoiled wing tht amazed even me!

I don't think that Thornburg designed the original Ebenezer; I think someone in the UK built the first one (I'll try to look it up), and apparently it is still popular there. Hardly a contest model, they run competitions based on target times. These things are SO much fun as to be likely illegal; any that I have built used a diesel for power, and glide had more to do with trajectory. I had fun, but the kids at the field had a riot.

Next step has to be electric, and I am working on something now, using a E-Charger for power...

[Applehoney]

>I don't think that Thornburg designed the original Ebenezer;

He didn't. I say again: Bert Striegler.

> I think someone in the UK built the first one (I'll try to look it up), and apparently it is still popular there.

Well, Bert started it .... and it's still going strong and not just in the Uk; Ebeneezer gatherings in various parts of the world, especially Australia. May even be a few planned for Geneseo in June at the Great Grape Gathering if the grapevine is correct.

[TLyttle]

Now I remember why it struck me wrong about Thornburg... oldtimers strikes again...

Good info. Where is Geneseo? and the Great Grape Gathering? New to me.

[flyinjim]

You guys are great, bringing back memories from long ago, I have been flying parkflyers for about 4 years, and love it, but have started building free flight. There's something about watching helplessly as your pride and joy leave your hand and maybe your life forever, its a much greater rush than r/c. I built a stahl skyfarer from the free plans on the Plans Page. It was my first suscessful flight, about 20 sec. on 200 turns. As kids we flew A.J. hornets in the front street, It was the 50's in Phoenix Az. and I don't remember the wind ever blowing, we also used the fly control line all day long, ringmasters flightstreaks Carl Goldberg shoestring stunters. What a blast. Once balsa gets into your blood it never leaves, Thank God!
Jim

[Applehoney]

Geneseo? Never heard of Geneseo, famous for the site of the annual Fling Aces Club meets? It's in New York State, about 35 miles south of Rochester. The Great Grape Gathering is a Canadian-run meeting that's been going for decades but we had to move it to Geneseo three years ago after we lost our only Ontario flying field.

[Tony Oliver]

The Ebenezer and it's many variants are alive and well. These three pics are from Old Warden earlier this year. The wide pic is about 1/3 of the 'Mass launch'. A sight not to be missed.

Tony

[Ian Easton]

Gosh Tony,

When I see photos of events like that (and vintage motorcycle events) plus beautiful grassy flying fields (on late Summer evenings especially) I just get really homesick.

So, what is the popular engine to use in Ebeneezers these days?

Ian

[Applehoney]

Note that windsock drooping on the right of the pic? Lucky lot .....

There have been some mentions of an Ebeneezer event at the Great Grape Gathering but nothing certain yet. if so... maybe an all-sheet 'Senatorneezer' .... :-)

[TLyttle]

WONDERFUL!!! LOVE the photos! Many times I have wished that I lived near Old Warden; I would spend the rest of my life helping organise the modelling events and volunteering at the museum...

Speaking of big events, the other event that I keep missing is the Beaulieu thing. My buddy brought back photos of the Austin 7s, steam tractor pulls, vintage cars and bikes... man...

[Tony Oliver]

The most popular engine? Anything that will start and keep running!

In glow, from Cox PeeWee/TeeDee/Medallion 020s up to any of the many Cox 049, plus a smattering of OKs, a Cobra (sort of Cox which Keil distributed) even an odd DC Bantam. Diesels have many Darts, Bambi, Merlin, ED Cadet, Frog 80 and some MPJets, genuine and repro Mills .75, and home made engines such as the Midge. The various exquisite miniature Mills from Derek Giles are usually to be seen too.

In fact, all of the engines from the 50s and 60s are there with some of the newer ones too. It's noticeable that the models with PAW .55s are well overpowered and cause great amusement for that.

Being freeflight, these engines will never wear out and can be refurbished if they do have problems.

I think there were well over 100 different aircraft this year and only a few 'original-true-to-plan' designs. It was especially timely this year as Bert Striegler had just come out of hospital after a serious operation. A large card was signed by all the entrants and forwarded to him. My pal corresponds regularly with Bert and sent copies of the photos which also appeared in the mags. Glad to say he's mending well and back into things again.

I doubt he had any idea at the time the Ebenezer was published that it was going to evolve like it has.

The basic model has been adapted all over the world and comes in every format you can think of. That includes the Rezenebe canard, multi-wings, all sorts of shape - you name it.

A fun aeroplane, costing little in time and money, bounceable, easy to trim,. A fun event with popular vote to select the 'best'. Not an event to be taken seriously.

Tony

ps - one engine I forgot - I actually saw a WenMac!

[Applehoney]

Wenmacs have a bad rep but they're quite a good sport engine.

[TLyttle]

Hooo, yaaa, gotta watch Mills repros. I had an original Mills, didn't dare fill the tank for freeflight. Bought an Indian Mills, it would run for 40sec on a tank. Bought Burford/Ivor M repro, near to lost it on a nice, draggy, Bristol Scout! It ran forever on a full tank, logged 3min on 1/2 tank in the Scout.

I do wish there was more freeflight in my area, but I have to travel over 200mi to any contests/funflys; oh, well, one of the drawbacks to living in paradise...

[flight999]

Being old nostalgia rules!
The sun always shone
It was never windy, just enough breeze to tow up your glider.
The rubber was good.
Motors never gave problems. First flick team race and combat starts.
Fields were BIG and plentiful.................... Ah well!!

Our local field saw the first Wakefield competition back in the 30's.
Now all model flying -including silent flight- is banned two days a week
sno doubt so that local dog walkers have somewhere for their dogs to
deflicate.

[TLyttle]

Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be...

Why is it we forget the bad times? Is it because there were more of them than good ones, and the good ones stand out? Modellers are a peculiar lot for pursuing a hobby that easily equates to self-flagellation, but there is something about a successful freeflight that wipes out all the crashes of new models that represent many hours of concentration and skill.

Gee maybe I should give it up... NOT LIKELY!!!

[Ian Easton]

My "Tomboy" plans arrived today (took about 5 weeks from Nexus - UK to US).
Now should I build the 36" or the 44"?

One thing the plan doesn't show is the CG. I'm thinking 25% is probably a good starting point.

[Applehoney]

Size depends upon the engine you're thinking of using.

Balance the Tomboy at the spar.

If you're not a stickler for authenticity, the structure could be the better for moving the spar to the upper surface; as per plan they all develop a little extra elliptical dihedral - but are none the worse of it.

[Ian Easton]

As for engine choices

DC dart
DC Super Merlin
DC Sabre

Mills 75 replica (a good one)
OK cub 049
PAW 1.49 (brand new)

mmmm - Maybe the PAW needs a new 44" home.

[Applehoney]

The PAW would be too much for it. Sabre would be okay, the others in a 36" version; keep it light for the Dart and the Cub

[flight999]

Pity you can't mount the original.
The favourite was the ED Bee

Nice little motors those.

[Ian Easton]

Forgot to mention my ME Heron - that would be a good a candidate.

[Tony Oliver]

Odd you should mention the Heron, Ian.

I remember it when they first came out and my memory of it is being a nasty, snappy engine that ran well and was fairly powerful. I was really put off them by the cuts I got starting one.

Hoever I got one in a bag of assorted engines from a swapmeet. This one is a little beauty and starts easily and runs well and economically. Hard to believe it's the same as the 'horror'.

It's true, nostalgia isn't what it used to be. Old prejudices die hard, but in common with others, I find that they're falling like ninepins (tenpins with inflation).

Tony

[flight999]

Ah! The Heron, yes that would be fine

[zl3vml]

Re Ebenezers - we had a Scottish visitor here these last few weeks, Willy, who brought an Ebenezer with which he proceded to fly with much abandon every weekend to our delight. Even nearly lost it in a thermal!
I was truly amazed.

I have been getting my "Stomper" trimmed out over the last couple of weeks but it is a real "trial" having been away from free flight for about 10 years.

I had forgotten how much fun (and challenging) free flight can be. A whole new learning curve again for me. Only, this time round I am actualy getting to enjoy it!

When I first started out in free flight (about 30 years ago, before migrating onto r/c) I found it a real challenge and highly frustrating to get a well trimmed competitive model of any sort. Of course building with any wood, glue and covering materials that were handy probably went a long way to scarring me for life in the free flight department :-)

Not so however once a kindly old soul took me under his guidance and became my mentor and I "discovered" decent balsa & tissue. That changed my life as far as modeling was concerned.

Today I can truly say free flight is an art in it's right and to be highly recommended.

Mark

[Ian Easton]

Perhaps we should start a thread of ebeneezer plans.

[TLyttle]

My Heron never bit me; was I lucky, or was the build quality that variable? Good motor, though.

Starting a Ebenezer plan site would be great, both for beginners and just for fun. Aeromodeller published a few Ebenezer plans, including that observation aircraft in the photo; the one with the pusher motor and German markings. I want to build one for electric off my Aeromodeller plan... sometime... soon...

[Applehoney]

Mark,

>I have been getting my "Stomper" trimmed out over the last couple of weeks but it is a real "trial"

In what way a trial? The 'Stomper' is one of the easiest power models to trim; assume you have a 1.5cc in the sharp end and that it's built as per plan, correct CG and warps? It's a large docile airplane and should climb out in a loose spiral without too much tweaking - the one thing to remember is NOT to launch it .. just point it up and let go .. and the 'Stomper' should do its own thing... On the other hand, if you give it a firm launch then it's very likely to go squirrely, even into left rolls!

[Applehoney]

ME Heron - and, I think, all ME engines are quite docile sport engines .. but maybe there's a 'dog' in a production run now and then?

[zl3vml]

Applehoney

Well.... Initialy it was hellbent on a very tight and steep power & glide turn. I sorted the power spiral out with some left thrust first. Even though I have the correct wash-in, and even some (inadvertent) washout on the otherside for good measure :)

For the glide I eventualy found I had somehow too much tilt on the elevator and reduced that to sort the glide turn out but it was still very steep. Some up elevator cured that at the field but I have since discovered that the wing mount was cracked in the centre so that the wing was able to "tilt" a bit and wonder how much that affected things. That would have explained the excessive tailplane tilt too I think....

Having fixed all that and reseated the tailplane mount I have yet to try it again this weekend.
Our weather is pretty fickle here and as soon as it warms up the wind picks up as well so the actual early morning still air flying time is pretty short lived.

As my first effort after so many years I am however quite pleased with it. My next one will be lighter and stronger. We have to build 'em strong here to have a fighting chance against the trees and stampeeding sheep :D

Oh yes, PAW 1.49 up front and all up weight just on 14 oz. The silencer will come off this weekend now that the trimming flights are nearly completed.
Mark

By the way - I agree an Ebenezer thread would be great - I am dead keen on knocking one together for the .020 I have with a diesel head conversion.

[Tony Oliver]

I think I was unlucky with the 'biter'. Apart from my TeeDees and the beautiful K&B15R, all my motors were diesel and I'd got years of experience with them by the time the Heron was received. Otherwise I'd put the experience down to poor technique. I was starting my pal's McCoy 60 speed model by hand on a 9x12 prop, 50% nitro around this time too. (I think I'd be a bit reluctant to do that now - a 12xsomething is ok, but 9 inch?)