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View Full Version : Idea Uav Fun-fly In S. Calif.


Capt. Crunch
Sep 23, 2007, 12:53 PM
“UAV FUN-FLY IN S. CALIF.”

( This is continued from an earlier Thread, "UAV Challenge this week in Australia", Hopefully someone will transfer those post to here )


I say Chaps, why not bang together a little Rally for UAVs here in the Colonies?

Some very nice areas in Southern California, and some awesome talent lurking about too.

Don't really need a big prize, but some donations from the Aerospace Industry is very do-able.

I think a basic UAV Fly-In sometime in the early summer after school lets out for starters.

If it's a hit, year 2 could have actual classes and competition similar to the Outback Challenge. Separate divisions for High School, College/University, Hobby, Professional, or based on tasks, etc.

If interested, just post to this Thread and I'll try to keep it going, and I'll volunteer to get a site and date together in January when I'm home. I'm thinking of an area where RVs and camping can be done as well as regular motels. Should have a General Aviation airport near or for the base camp.

Make comments to show interest to see if it's feasible please.

Wayne "Capt. Crunch" Walker



Today, 04:27 PM Report This Post to a Moderator · #4
mlbco
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Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Palo Alto, California, United States
Distance from you: 11759 km
Posts: 338 Wayne,

It sounds good, but you might want to check with the FAA first to see if they'll allow amateur UAV operations without a COA. If they do, it will help set a precedent for more amateur UAV activities. Maybe one day the AMA will even support this!


Steve


Today, 05:01 PM Report This Post to a Moderator · #5
Tom Harper
Tom




Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Socorro, NM
Posts: 1,609 Crunch,

Great idea, but with gas at $3 a gallon, and time constraints what they are, it may be difficult to have all of the colonials drive to Calif. Then there's the population density problem for UAVs.

Now, when I was a kid, we flew FF on Camp Kearny Mesa. Miles and miles of nothing. Now it's miles and miles of houses.

Some thoughts:

Could we start with a distributed event? Set up a day when participating clubs hold competitions on their fields, but competing with other groups across the US. 'Papers' could be submitted to San Diego to be read by proxy.

Once established, a big event could be held at a different place in the US each year. Like the AMA used to do with the Nationals.

The high population density areas are an obvious choice because that's where the people are. But UAV needs space.

In New Mexico we have space. Socorro County is the size of NJ. It has two incorporated towns. Each with less than 10,000 population. White Sands Missile Range has allowed long distance RC competitions on the base. There's a gillion square miles of BLM land. We have a universtiy with a world class meeting facility, lot's of motel rooms and sufficient fast food joints to feed and army.

Another thought is Las Vegas. Before I retired I held all of my management meetings in Vegas. It cost 1/3 of anyplace else because of the cheap airfare and hotel rates. There are some great sites around Vegas. North around the Valley of Fire. Seems I remember a dry lake bed up there. Or, there's always the huge dry lake the locals use south of Railroad Pass.

Anyway, I think it's a great idea. Let's work on it.

Tom

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Last edited by Tom Harper : Today at 05:19 PM.


Today, 05:17 PM Report This Post to a Moderator · #6
Tom Harper
Tom




Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Socorro, NM
Posts: 1,609 Steve,

Getting permission from White Sands Missile Range might establish and interesting precedent. It's an obvious place to hold a UAV competition.

An alternative would be to hold it on a large ranch. All flights over private property at under 400 feet height above ground.

Tom

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Last edited by Tom Harper : Today at 05:41 PM.


Today, 06:00 PM
Capt. Crunch
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OK, as long as it's under 500 ft AGL and within VFR limits, it would appease the AMA and FAA.
I'm not a fan of red tape and filling out forms so I'll let someone else do that.

I think with those limits we could at least have a start with some modest performance. Later it could be expanded to include the FAA approval version. It would be good to find “Flexible” FAA office to “Float” the first one by and set a precedent. There’s no reason to involve the AMA unless one really wants to. I’ve worked with them before, they’re not easy to work with on new ideas, e.g. if you want to do a rubber band or spin-dizzy contest they’re great. Just getting them to accept Electric Powered competition as a valid discipline has been hard enough!

I was thinking of a rural/desert area with no population to disturb, lots of that within 2-3 hrs drive of San Diego-Los Angeles area.

Tom, your Las Vegas idea sounds totally awasome, I've been to many full size glider events there, lots of good points for using it. Because of the heat, you'd have to have it earlly in May or April or in the Fall, and of course there's the wind! A careful look at the average weather conditions might give a good time slot for having it there. Although that reminds me that the weather in Arizona is really great in Nov. around Thanksgiving time, hmmmmm.


IMHO if you can't afford $3 a gallon gas you can't afford these types of hobbies, and my experience with the MWE over 10 years of running it or participating in it, is that we'd only draw from the 3 or 4 SW states, CA, AZ, NV, CO or so.

That being said, a "Distributed" or "Postal" event as they were called in the really old days, would be in order. I'll set up a meet for S. Calif., maybe someone else in another region? etc.

Next step/year if it warrants it, would be a location like White Sands or Edwards AFB, or Ellis AFB in NV. Again it could be Postal for those out of area so long dist. travel wouldn't be required. Probably just have a local flying club verify the results to keep everyone from “exaggerating” their performance. With a cell phone internet link we could post results as they happen and at 5PM PST we’d have the winners before Monday! Cool, eh? rotating it qround would be agood idea too, let's see what the thoughts are after Year 1.

Now I just realized I have inadvertently Hi-Jacked this thread. I'd like it to continue with the information of the Oz Outback Challenge. Having been to several AIAA Design, Build, Fly events, I'm very curious as to how this come out. I'm hoping for the best, but have seen so many un-prepared entries in such events before that the possibility for mass carnage and incredible humor is beyond comprehension, or should I say, inevitable?

Does anyone know how we can get a moderator to tranfer these posts to a new thread? I've never done anything like that before, and being in GMT+4 I sleep while you guys are up all day posting to these silly forums!

BTW, one of the reasons for a remote area is so that the “Button of Death” doesn’t have to be required like in OZ. AIAA has the same thing, but it’s never really had to be used, but they hold their events on a Military base and at an airport owned by Cessna Corp. with a lot of open space.

I’ll start a new thread and call it “UAV FUN-FLY IN S. CALIF.” So if someone could see about transferring these post to it, I’d be eternally grateful, well for at least an hour or so.

Time for bed for me. I'll Check in tomorrow AM here.

Capt .Crunch Wayne

Tom Harper
Sep 23, 2007, 02:56 PM
"I like your ideas Tom, 'International UAV Postal Contest' is good, but I don't want to put on a real "Contest". Too much work.

Keep working it, 'International UAV Postal Fly-In' hits me right. It's also time the model community understood that just a Fly-In is a lot of fun, Like the old KRC events, everyone just came with their planes and showed them off, no pressure, no hassles with rules and organizing.

We could have 'Events' like Most interseting Picture, Golf Ball Drop to Sand Pit 2mx2m (wonder wher thta came from?) SFM SAR Practice, Smallest, Lowest Cost, etc."

We use the Chile Drop (Red or Green).

Then maybe we start with "International UAV Postal Symposium". I'd be glad to handle that part in conjunction with the San Diego Fun Fly.

Fun Flys are OK but I miss the all out competition of events like D-FF and Control Line Speed. I know what you mean though. There needs to be more than competition. So, why not do both. The Fun Fly / Symposium is a place to show off your gear and a place for some specialized competition.

I really like the 'Cheapest Solution' event.

Go to bed. We'll talk in the morning.

Tom

workshop
Sep 23, 2007, 03:59 PM
"It sounds good, but you might want to check with the FAA first to see if they'll allow amateur UAV operations without a COA. If they do, it will help set a precedent for more amateur UAV activities. Maybe one day the AMA will even support this!"

I'll be interested if the AMA and FAA are left completely out of this. Neither organization is any help; they are the adversaries of the amateur UAV movement.

I would like to nominate El Mirage or Rabbit Dry lakebeds. There is little point in having UAVs stay within eyesight for a competition! I believe that is what the AMA is good for...

Jeff

p.s. "OK, as long as it's under 500 ft AGL and within VFR limits, it would appease the AMA and FAA." - Appease the organizations that are attempting to put a stop to what you want to do? I do not see how approaching "them" helps "us". Anything you say or do will be used against you in a court of law.

"Underground" this contest to attract the best and the brightest. I would venture that because of our rich aviation history and the fact that we are home to the El Segundo defense complex, NASA's JPL and Hollywood, this contest would break huge technological ground because of our talent pool. In homage to BurningMan, I hereby coin the term “FlyingMan” for such an underground (i.e. no FAA, no AMA, no anythingA) UAV contest.

The form-fillers can ruin this party quick.

Tom Harper
Sep 23, 2007, 04:11 PM
Jeff,

I like that. It's interstate all the way from here to the dry lakes. Might be able to make it.

Tom

workshop
Sep 23, 2007, 04:20 PM
Plus long routes over the populationless desert can be chased by motor vehicle with spotter and or PIC via the highways that are so straight and long in those parts.

Jeff

zlite
Sep 23, 2007, 11:25 PM
We had a UAV fly-in at the Alameda Naval Air Station near Oakland, California in August. Open to all, "common sense" rules (400 ft, pilot-in-control, line of sight) and about a dozen attendees. Report here (http://diydrones.com/profiles/blog/show?id=705844%3ABlogPost%3A3088) . We're planning similar fly-ins and pre-college contests at DIYDrones.com

Capt. Crunch
Sep 24, 2007, 01:30 AM
I'll be interested if the AMA and FAA are left completely out of this. Neither organization is any help; they are the adversaries of the amateur UAV movement.

I would like to nominate El Mirage or Rabbit Dry lakebeds. There is little point in having UAVs stay within eyesight for a competition! I believe that is what the AMA is good for...

Jeff

p.s. "OK, as long as it's under 500 ft AGL and within VFR limits, it would appease the AMA and FAA." - Appease the organizations that are attempting to put a stop to what you want to do? I do not see how approaching "them" helps "us". Anything you say or do will be used against you in a court of law.

"Underground" this contest to attract the best and the brightest. I would venture that because of our rich aviation history and the fact that we are home to the El Segundo defense complex, NASA's JPL and Hollywood, this contest would break huge technological ground because of our talent pool. In homage to BurningMan, I hereby coin the term “FlyingMan” for such an underground (i.e. no FAA, no AMA, no anythingA) UAV contest.

The form-fillers can ruin this party quick.

I think you have it Jeff, "Underground" it is! I think Rabbit Dry Lake is better because; No Ranger Station nearby to muck things up, possibly drier than El Mirage in the early summer, probably easier to get to and stage at, much more interesting landscape around it.

I also agree that neither the FAA or AMA can offer us anyting posative, they mostly see inovation as bad because it's not covered in their existing rules and regs, which mostly suck anyway.

Wayne

Jack Crossfire
Sep 24, 2007, 01:48 AM
Don't think amateur UAV's are at the point where insurance carriers and government agents need to worry about vehicles roaming around with no pilot in command, at least from this country.

patrickegan
Sep 26, 2007, 12:59 AM
RCAPA had planed on doing a SAR contest this summer past. We ran the SAR contest up the flag pole to the AIR-160, they had reservations about the idea. Maybe we could write a COA for a fly in or have a military installation (or flying club field on base) host one. P

workshop
Sep 26, 2007, 01:32 AM
I like the SAR contest. One idea...

Officials could place visual targets at known waypoints. These targets would have a secret number or symbol visible from 400' AGL.

Contestants can drive to the general location the night before the contest and meet at an airstrip in the early morning. The basic location can be outlined so everybody can be on site. The exact location can be kept a secret until morning of the contest.

At the start of the contest, the location of the targets are given (lat,lon) to the contestants. Each team would then plan and program routes to gather as many codes as their airframe and flight plan allow.

The team that gathers the most codes in two hours wins a cash prize - no corporate funding, advertising or sponsorship for the contestants and officials.

Show n' tell and beer drinking at lunch...

Jeff

patrickegan
Sep 26, 2007, 01:46 AM
I don’t think it so much the sponsorship as the hobby thing allows for competitions but for some reason we couldn’t get a direct answer out of them as to the why not. I should be speaking with the160 within the week and I’ll inquire.

I’m having Spinal Tap flashbacks of sexy and sexist. :rolleyes:

Tom Harper
Sep 26, 2007, 11:16 AM
Workshop,

Sounds like the good old days when everybody happened to be at the school yard on Sunday morning with a model and some rich kid had a pair of control lines.

I think the problem at present is that the UAV fraternity is not well populated. I'm sure there are a number of UAVers in New Mexico but I have yet to meet one.

Tom

CenTexFlyer
Sep 26, 2007, 02:38 PM
I believe someone might show up with a wing........
yeah, that's the ticket......
...and his name.... would be..... AUTO-MAN!
yeah, yeah.... that's the ticket!
and he'd bring his wife......Morgan Fairchild!

workshop
Sep 26, 2007, 03:42 PM
Date: Sometime in October
Place: Near Adelanto or Hesperia (El Mirage or Rabbit or thereabouts)
Contest: SAR open to UAV or FPV airplanes - amateurs only
Prize: $1,000 cash

Who would show up?


p.s.

I’ve seen Spinal Tap, never been poor and I don’t know Auto-Man… I must be thick because I don’t get the following comments:

“I’m having Spinal Tap flashbacks of sexy and sexist.”

“Sounds like the good old days when everybody happened to be at the school yard on Sunday morning with a model and some rich kid had a pair of control lines.”

“I believe someone might show up with a wing........
yeah, that's the ticket......
...and his name.... would be..... AUTO-MAN!
yeah, yeah.... that's the ticket!
and he'd bring his wife......Morgan Fairchild!”

Tom Harper
Sep 26, 2007, 04:21 PM
Workshop,

You must be a young'un.

Clarification:

In 1946 control line was very big. On Saturday or Sunday almost every park and schoolyard had a bunch of models, flyers and spectators. You didn't need a notice because you could hear the whine of the engines all over town. They were close groups and equipment was often shared. Those gatherings eventually became clubs and eventually held contests. Alameda, CA is a small city, but we had two clubs, the Aeromodelers and the Model Engineers. During the summer there was a contest, somewhere in the Bay Area, every weekend.

__________________________________________________ _____________


Your idea sounds like a blast. Is the thousand bucks a purse or are you going to spring for it?

patrickegan
Sep 26, 2007, 04:56 PM
Remember the artwork on “Smell the glove”?
It was a play on the subtle nuances of what exactly constitutes “recreational” use.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b_wdRsnoog

Girl get me back to my Hell Hole…


and he'd bring his wife......Morgan Fairchild!


Just make sure she’s wearing one of those tight (yet tastefully low cut)sweaters like in the Old Navy commercial! :D

Littlebear
Sep 26, 2007, 08:42 PM
Date: Sometime in October
Place: Near Adelanto or Hesperia (El Mirage or Rabbit or thereabouts)
Contest: SAR open to UAV or FPV airplanes - amateurs only
Prize: $1,000 cash

Who would show up?


p.s.

I’ve seen Spinal Tap, never been poor and I don’t know Auto-Man… I must be thick because I don’t get the following comments:

“I’m having Spinal Tap flashbacks of sexy and sexist.”

“Sounds like the good old days when everybody happened to be at the school yard on Sunday morning with a model and some rich kid had a pair of control lines.”

“I believe someone might show up with a wing........
yeah, that's the ticket......
...and his name.... would be..... AUTO-MAN!
yeah, yeah.... that's the ticket!
and he'd bring his wife......Morgan Fairchild!”


I would certainly be interested in the event and location, but not the date - my FPV critter hasn't been built yet, and October's gonna be a busy month for me at work. :( But I would definitely be interested in something like this by January or February of next year.

-Littlebear (in Los Angeles, CA)

Capt. Crunch
Sep 27, 2007, 03:30 AM
Hmmmm,...October...Rabbit Lake.......

Sounding good....

SAR contest.....Sounds real good.....


Quote>>>FlyingMan -\--{

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAR contest. One idea...

Officials could place visual targets at known waypoints. These targets would have a secret number or symbol visible from 400' AGL.

Contestants can drive to the general location the night before the contest and meet at an airstrip in the early morning. The basic location can be outlined so everybody can be on site. The exact location can be kept a secret until morning of the contest.

At the start of the contest, the location of the targets are given (lat,lon) to the contestants. Each team would then plan and program routes to gather as many codes as their airframe and flight plan allow.

The team that gathers the most codes in two hours wins a cash prize - no corporate funding, advertising or sponsorship for the contestants and officials.

Show n' tell and beer drinking at lunch...

Jeff<<<<

What do you think of 3 known waypoints, and 3 Unknown points (within a certain area that can't be seen from the pits/take off area, about about 200-300 yds circle of known start point?

Thinking...thinking...

Pinga_Dog
Sep 27, 2007, 01:44 PM
Question: Do you have maps to El Mirage and Rabbit? We are looking for a place to do some testing.

Stan

Capt. Crunch
Sep 27, 2007, 02:07 PM
Most all maps have them on them. Use Google earth to zero in.

El Mirage is north & west of Adelanto, CA about 10 miles at El Mirage Rd. & Sheep Creek Road, watch for signs, and watch out for motorcycles at all times.

Rabbit Dry Lake is 15-20 miles E of Victorville on hiway 18 at Rabbit Springs road, it's on Google Hybrid map, can't miss it.

Pinga_Dog
Sep 27, 2007, 02:57 PM
Thanks. We used El Mirage 20 years ago for some testing and I couldn't remember how to get there. Sheep Creek Road looks like the ticket. Notice the small runway to the west with the predators on the flight line.

Capt. Crunch
Sep 28, 2007, 04:19 AM
Yeah, that's my company's test area for Predators. Used to be El Mirage Airport and the home of Southern Calif Gliding.

BTW the entrance to the lake is about 1-2 mi East of Sheep Creek Rd., with a small sign as of 3 yrs ago when I was there last. It is now under US PArk Service control.
And the access road shows on Google-Hybrid maps.

Jack Crossfire
Sep 28, 2007, 04:09 PM
The southland seems 2 B UAV headquarters. Silicon Valley is Web 2.0 headquarters. Too bad locations can't swap roles.

patrickegan
Oct 11, 2007, 12:11 AM
Any new news?

workshop
Oct 11, 2007, 01:14 AM
I flew to Vegas and back today (and boy are my arms tired) :rolleyes: and used my window seat both ways to scout locations. I think the Rabbit Lake area and the land to the north east of it are probable locations.

I’d sponsor the event but that would make me ineligible; I’m open to the idea or I would not have mentioned it. I’d like to do this in late November and I’d be interested in how many would drive to stay over night in Hesperia to make an early morning contest?

Jeff