Will PicoPilot work with Hitec Fusion 9 Failsafe

[smitty505000]

Hey all,
I need failsafes set up on my Twinstar 2 using PicoPilot. I use a Futaba radio and its pcm rx needs the buffers to raise the logic voltage and I would rather not go that way. I was wondering if anyone has used a Hitec Fusion 9 with any luck. Also is there a pin where I can get the RSSI output for signal strength?

Basically I am looking for a 8 or 9 channel rx that is full range, has dual conversion, failsafes, and will work with futaba radio and PicoPilot and has somewhere to connect to an RSSI.

Thanks,
Smitty

[icebear]

Hi Smitty,

I have been using Hitech without failsafe - works fine (PPM) and switched over to FMA FS-8 (need boosters on all picopilot-channels) with failsafe and also Schulze 8 ch rx which has failsafe too.

For me the FS8 and Schulze has worked equally well - I like the Schulze since it is small light, has failsafe and it does not need boosters. It does a funny thing on start-up so that the Picopilot is enabled and does it's full throttle/full right rudder on startup but that doesn't matter.
Not sure if the Schulze is available for 72 MHz in the US though...

/Icebear

[smitty505000]

Icebear,

Thanks for the quick reply! I have done quite a bit of searching and have not found where anyone has tried the "Hitec fusion 9 synth rx" in this type of setup. It is PPM and Hitec so it should work. I am going to check my LHS and if they have one, I will give it a try and post my results. Hopefully it will work with PicoPilot and also have somewhere to solder an RSSI wire for the Inspire OSD. Would be nice to have another choice of rx's that works.

Smitty

[icebear]

Good luck and let us know what you find - I have been looking for that rx but havent found it in Europe! I think that it should work too since it is PPM...

/Icebear

[smitty505000]

Well my LHS has one and I was about to go pick it up. Before leaving I decided to read the manual on the Hitec RCD site. I found the failsafe only operates up to 15 seconds then shuts the signal down to save the servos if they are jammed. It would also shut down ESC's and any othe device. So if the interference is longer than 15 seconds it would not work anyway. I need to think about this one.

Smitty

[air]

That hitec fusion synth sounds like a rebadged Multiplex 9 channel synth receiver. It has the exact same 15 second failsafe time and Hitec own Multiplex of course.
However the RX9 DS Synth can be hooked up to the Multiplex RX Datamanager application (free download from http://www.multiplex-rc.de/) and the failsafe hold time can then be increased. You will need the necessary cable to interface it to your pc though - Multiplex Product #85149 for the USB version.
I'm not sure what the max hold time you can program is, I havent bought the cable yet.
I think you need servo buffers, I've purchased the FMA ones but havent tried it with or without them yet.
Edit:Minor typo

[smitty505000]

Very interesting Air, If buffers are still needed then I will just use my 9ch PCM futaba rx and get a few buffers. 1 for ail, 1 for elv, and 1 for enable. There is going to be more electronics on this plane than the first moon landing :D

I think I will remove my Inspire OSD, Geko, and pan/tilt cam setup so I can get the PicoPilot setup and running correctly first. Then when the buffers come in, change over to my PCM rx and test again. Then when all is good, put the rest of the gear back on.

BTW my PicoPilot NA came today! 2 days from Washington state to Florida! Lots to read up on. Would love to try it in the morning but not sure if the weather will be good or if I can read and setup everthing in time. :confused:

Smitty

[kd7ost]

I would recommend that you take the time to test fly, make adjustments, test fly, make adjustments etc as part of the integration process for maximum results. It's a good system.

The Futaba is a good choice as well. Lots of manufacturers have gone to the 3.3 VDC logic pulses to save power and take advantage of the new processors in the receiver and better manage low battery power conditions in flight. Futaba has done the same thing at the upper end of their PCM transmitter. JR is the only manufacturer I know of that is still using the 5 volt TTL logic. Coincidentally the PIC chips in the Pico Pilot use 5 VDC logic and therefore the need for the buffers. Certain buffers act as level shifters to the logic pulses to the servo's, (or enable lines) which shifts the 3.3 volt pulses out of the receiver to 5 volt pulses. You are on the right track. You're in pretty good hands on here if you need advice to get things set up. icebear and Workshop are among the best. ;)

Dan

[smitty505000]

Thanks KD7ost, I will need all the help I can get. :D Here is the first of probably many questions. I am using the PicoPilot on a Twinstar 2. Should I connect it to just the rudder, rudder with ailerons mixed in, ailerons with rudder mixed in? I know the manual says use a y connector between both but I have read here somewhere to just use a mix.

Smitty

[smitty505000]

oh yea, whats up with this 6v deal. I am using a ESC to power my rx at 5v. I do have a 6v switching bec that I could use but will it cause interference? I really dont want to add another batery pack to this plane.

Smitty

[kd7ost]

Thanks KD7ost, I will need all the help I can get. :D Here is the first of probably many questions. I am using the PicoPilot on a Twinstar 2. Should I connect it to just the rudder, rudder with ailerons mixed in, ailerons with rudder mixed in? I know the manual says use a y connector between both but I have read here somewhere to just use a mix.

Smitty

That's a new thing UNAV recommends based on field work and developmental experience by Jeff Parisse (Workshop) of Tesla coil fame. I've never done it like that and in fact use a different system that UNAV doesn't like me to do. But hey, you can't argue with success or simplicity in what I'm doing. I have a big plane though to carry extra parts. I would do it in the manner currently recommended by UNAV. Be advised you may have to decrease throws and add in differential aileron deflection in the linkage. Don't ask your UAV to fly like it's in your control. It has to generally be tamed down a bit.

oh yea, whats up with this 6v deal. I am using a ESC to power my rx at 5v. I do have a 6v switching bec that I could use but will it cause interference? I really dont want to add another batery pack to this plane.

Smitty

Are you talking about power to the GPS unit?

Dan

[smitty505000]

Ok, Ill play with different throws. First just go with rudder with a bit of ail mix. Test, test, test...lol

The pp manual says it needs 6v and the gps 5v. They recomend a 5 cell pack for rx and pp. and a 4 cell for gps.

Smitty

[kd7ost]

Got it,

I had to go back and review my manual to see what that was about. I wouldn't worry about that. I do keep the GPS on its own 5vdc source. But I use the BEC output of a speed controller into my receiver and as a result, the Pico units and servos. I think you will be fine powering the Receiver off 5 VDC. (The manual states the voltage to the Pico unit should be at 5.3 to 7 VDC) But the GPS may lose lock if you pull power down from servo operation. It's too much of a load to share. (Unless Bjorn has other advice) I just bought a very small 5 cell NiMh pack and power the GPS with that. A 4 cell would work well too.

Dan

[icebear]

Smitty,

I agree with what Dan says (after all - he's the one that gave me a good start a few years ago!:)).

The important thing is to see to that the Picopilot gets a steady voltage level that should not go below 5,0 volts, the GPS will tolerate a somewhat lower voltage, but more importantly needs voltage below 5,5v. To solve this equation I have had good success with the following setups;

1) UBEC switching BEC unit (5,0v) to power everything - rx, 2 servos, Picopilot, Pico GPS. Has worked great for over 10 hours of autonomous flight in my SuperMiss

2) JETI spin ESC with 5,5v 3A switching BEC. This is the soulting I have in my Viking UAV. Here I have 4 servos so I was happy to find the JETI ESC which gives a little better margin of voltage for the Picopilot while still powering the gps and everthing else

UNAV say that when servo loads are low you can actually just use the 5v from the ESC's BEC to power the Picopilot and GPS and I have tried it and it worked. I was a bit worried to overheat the ESC so I reverted to using a separate BEC - I also tested the Dimension Engineering Park BEC (5v) and it worked fine with the Picopilot/rx/servos/GPS at once.

Re setup of controls my advice is to go via rudder control and add in some aileron. Like Dan says you need to tame down the controls to a minimum and start off by setting a low gain on the NAV, say 25% and go from there.
You could use a Y-cable between Picopilot and rudder/ailerons and set the ailerons very mild and with differential. I use a Veetail OMNI mixer and add in some aileron to rudder but that's mainly because the Viking has such monstrous control surfaces so even when I set them to a minimum throw, it is too much. Taming down rudder and mixing in just 10% aileron proved to be a good solution for that airframe.

Make sure you are happy with how the plane handles before engaging the autopilot.

Test fly so that you have the plane going straight and true with very mild controls and I think you'd be fine.

Test only ONE thing at a time in the beginning - for example just 'return home' (no wp's loaded) and only the NAV unit (ALT unit not enabled) and it'll be a quicker process to dial everything in.

Good luck!

/Bjorn

[smitty505000]

Great advice Icebear. I have it set up so everything is powered by the 2x ESC's (twin motors) and it seams ok for now. As for the control surfaces I see what you mean now after my test flights this morning. (see below)

I was able to get out to the field this morning and do a few tests. I wanted to just test RTL and get aquinted with operation of the unit. First test she pitched up dramatically and then down. I landed and adjusted the gain for the alt and tried again. Still same thing. Before landing I tried a few more times and got similar results. (Now let me say, its a bit windy and I am testing down wind so the plane has to turn towards the wind and come back to me. Not the best test situation but I just wanted to get a feel for her.) Ok so landed and adjust the gain all the way down on the alt and gave her another try. Hey! she turned and was trying to come back to me fighting the wind. Still had a little bit of a problem with the alt wanting to pitch up or down and causing the plane to stall slightly and roll to one side then the other. Hmm..could it be the alt module was reversed? Well I dont have a working printer so the manual is at home on my computer. :o LOL oh well. I would have removed the jumper but it is so hard to get to and the wind was still picking up so I decided it was a good day and packed it up. When I got home I checked the manual and yep, the alt was reversed. :o Also I guess I need to leave the settings on my tx set to 100% throw and adjust them mechanically on the plane. That is why I wanted to just get dirty and test this thing to get a feel for her. I am normally a good problem solver but need to go one step at a time and analyze the results.

Cant wait for the weather to calm for the next outing. :D

Smitty

[icebear]

Good to hear about your maiden - sounds like a good one given the circumstances!

I guess you have the Alt-E version and already know this, but to check operation of both Pico units just ENABLE the units via the Tx and turn on the power - the servos should do a full right/up for a short while if they are setup correctly.

Tx 100% throw and do the adjustments on the mechanical linkage is the way to go!

Would be nice to know what settings will work for you so let us know!

/Icebear

[smitty505000]

Icebear, yes setting the tx switch in enable mode and then powering up the pp is how I found the alt-e was reversed. Another thing I noticed sitting here playing around is that the manual is incorrect on the pot adjustments. It states turn CW to increase throw and CCW to decrease throw. Well it is correct for the NAV-A but the ALT-E is reversed. I wonder if it is because I had to reverse the throw? I would check but its a Bear (pun intended) to get out again. :D The manual leaves a bit to be desired.

BTW, Testing all this stuff sucks the juice out of my TX's ailing meesly 700Mah NiCd pack! Its about 4 years old and only holds 600Mah and was in need of replacement so I orderd a new 2700Mah NiMh pack. Should be able to fly forever now. :D

Smitty

[smitty505000]

Hi guys,

Went out this morning to do some more tests. She flew great! Came back perfect every time. The control throws for rudder and elevator are set on the inner most servo horn and outer most control horn. Alt gain set to about 15% and rudder about 50%.

Now I want to set up a route to follow. I am using google earth to get my LAT and LON but not sure what setting I need to use to get it in the format the PicoPilot needs. If I set Google Earth to decimal degrees, I get a negetive number for LON and the waypoint editor wont take it. Not sure what to do?? Am I using the right setting?? :confused:

Smitty

[icebear]

Hi smitty!

Great to hear that you got things working OK. Those gain and mechanical settings sound familiar :)

I use Mapsource to figure out my lat/long. I am East of Greemwich so my coordinates are Lat N and Long E (positive).
You should use decimal degrees and use Long W for West which indicates the same as negative. Can you get the editor to show "W" for Longitude?

/Icebear

[air]

Just to confuse things a bit further guys, I'm used my picopilot with an RX7-DS Synth this morning and it worked fine with no servo buffers. Also, it seems to hold the failsafe for longer than 15seconds - it held my throttle setting and pico enabled for over a minute when I tried it.
I'm still waiting for my rx-synth data cable.

[smitty505000]

Icebear, I think I got it figured out. I looked at the editor and my start point from this morning and compared it to google earth. Its the same but without the "-" before the lon. Hopefully be able to give her a go tomorrow if weather is ok.

air, Interesting. The manual says the servos go "soft" after 15 sec. Wonder if that means it still holds position with say the ground and signal wire but disables the positve wire to save the servos from breaking if jamed?? But that would mean the PicoPilot would not have power since the power comes from the rx. Is it possible for you to do a bench test and switch off tx to see what happens??

Smitty

[air]

Hiya, Yes I did turn off the transmitter to test it earlier, however I've just done some more testing.
It seems that it keeps the power to the servos all right (as I had suspected since the picopilot stays powered), it just kills the signal pulse to the servos.
This doesnt seem to bother the picopilot, I guess it stays enabled until it receives a valid disable signal from the receiver and it continues wing levelling, navigating etc.
In my case my speed controller seems to hold the last good frame also, so it maintains power at the power off setting.
I havent got the Pico Thrt installed at the moment but I'd imagine that this should mean that it doesnt matter if the ESC holds the position or not - the picopilot will still generate a signal code.
I'd still like to use the rx data cable to extend the hold period though, I have other devices onboard that require consistent rx data.

[smitty505000]

Well I can not use my Futaba 9 ch PCM rx cuz my head tracker will not work if the tx is in PCM mode. :(

How about using 2x Berg 7 rx's. One can be channels 1-7 and the other can be programed via castle link so I could get two extra channels 8-9! Do the bergs need buffers? I think it was up in this tread. I will look.

Smitty

[smitty505000]

Looks like bergs do not need buffers. I also found a post where a guy found the RSSI pin for signal strength. I think this will work great. I have used two RX's in the same plane before without any problems so it should work. I will have 9 channels available with fail safe. RX 1, channels 1-7 and RX 2, channels 1-6 (not used) and the last two reprogramed for channels 8-9. At $50.00 a piece it will be the same cost as a hitec fusion 9 but with unlimited fail safe time.

Smitty

[air]

Mmm, more bad news.
I received an RX Synth Datamanager cable today and it seems that the maximum failsafe time that is settable through the pc application is only 24 seconds.
I have cross posted (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753973) in the MPX forum to see if it can possibly be increased via a software update to RX Datamanager.

[smitty505000]

Air, sorry to hear its only 24 sec's. I found out the data manager dosnt work with the Hitec version, only the MPX RX. Otherwise I might have tried it.

Pico Pilot testing update:

I flew this past weekend and had 7 waypoints programed in and it seamed to find one once but then got lost. My theory is its because I am using my ESC bec to power RX, 4 servos, PP, and PP GPS. I think the voltage is droping and the GPS is loosing signal. I am now going to use a seperate bec and see how it works. Also I ordered a Telemaster electro 6' and am going to put all my gear in it. I am running out of space on the Twinstar 2. The only down side is I will be looking through the prop. :(

Smitty

[air]

Hi Smitty, mm yes it doesnt look like it can be increased using the rx datamanger either. I've done a bit of snooping with a port monitor but I'm not sure if it's worth playing with it. On the plus side the picopilot units seem to hold the last good frame so they work fine with the MPX receivers for me when I switch off the tx.
I've created a little PHP app also that lets me import waypoint files from Oziexplorer into the Picopilot. Point and click waypoint selection is great when you often work out of different areas.

[icebear]

Hi Smitty,

I too think the problem lies in your BEC powering too much causing the NAV-unit to restart (it needs 5.0 volts at all times), I think the Gps is more tolerant...
For me a ParkBec worked fine - or Jeti SPin Esc's with 5,5v switching bec to power everything.

Good luck with the Tele electro!

Cheers,

Icebear

[spirko]

Well I can not use my Futaba 9 ch PCM rx cuz my head tracker will not work if the tx is in PCM mode. :(
Smitty
Smitty, Ice Bear, et al,

I was going to buy another futaba R319dps - 9 channel to go with my new picopilot sailplane rig, because I didn’t want to extricate the one from my t-rex 600 with a Spartan 2000ap (many, many wires) will this not work?

If you were going to purchase one receiver with failsafe to work with a picopilot, (without servo buffers etc.,) what would it be? I was considering switching to 2.4, but that would interfere with wireless video.

I’ll just start flight tests with the picopilot tomorrow (with help from a great many of your posts,) I don’t expect to do any more than return to launch so failsafe shouldn’t be critical just yet.

Thanks for the help,
Craig

[icebear]

If you were going to purchase one receiver with failsafe to work with a picopilot, (without servo buffers etc.,) what would it be?

Spirko,

I have tested the FMA FS-8 (needs buffers) and a Schulze 8 ch rx both with failsafe.
It might be hard to find the Schulze in the US but it is worth a try since it is a great rx which is easy to setup and you can even connect it to a PC with an optional cable.


/Icebear

[spirko]

IceBear.
Thanks for response. I have a couple FS8s around the house, stopped using them in my helicopters because of bad glitching issues. (might have had to do with static electricity buildup from belt drive, etc. but I lost two helis w/ the FS8 so I’m gun-shy. I now use an ap2000i with a Futaba Rx and the co-pilot IR sensor on a heli.)

From further reading in forum I’m leaning toward going with a Berg Rx, it appears to have computer programmable fail-safes that will hold until the Tx returns, and compatibility with a futaba Tx as well as PicoPilot. (if I’m wrong, someone please chime in) But I’ll have to get new Crystals for that Rx,

btw, if I need to use the fma co-pilot in conjunction w/ the PicoPilot (I hope not) I thought I’d use the old CPD4 downstream from Rx and PicoPilot, I see how this would be wired. Are you able to use the FS8 (with the co-pilot working) with the PicoPilot?

Thanks again, I'm off to flight testing,
Craig

[icebear]

Spirko,

I have heard people complain about the FS-8 but mine has always worked flawlessly. There is an issue with one of the failsafe modes - if you use "last frame hold" you are likely to get jerky serv movements at the far end of range. I set all my channels to fixed failsafe positions after noticing ths and since then it has worked great.


Although I haven't tried it with the FS8 (but with the CPD4) I think you definitely could use the "copilot" function of the FS-8 with the picopilot. In that case I would use the copilot to control ailerons and the Picopilot would go between rx and rudder. But I think yo'll be happier with the Picopilot controlling ailerons/rudder and not using the Copilot sensor at all. By the way what airframe are you using?

Happy flight testing!

/Icebear

[spirko]

IceBear, U-Nav-ers,

I never had problems with FMA co-pilot on airplanes, only helicopters. Thanks for the tip on fixed fail failsafes. I’m using the PicoPilot on a 1.8 meter sailplane called the Dreamline. It’s the Omega, or Fly-Q equivalent that Esprit Model sells.

Spent a few hours this morning trimming my electric sailplane with the Picopilot. I don’t know how you guys mix aileron with rudder for wing-leveling on anything but a high-wing trainer-like plane. Did Workshop Jeff get his sailplane to work this way? (yes, I’ve read these forums, the u-nav manual, and the faq on the u-nav site about lessening the aileron throws) The only way I could make it work was by uncoupling the ailerons and connecting the picopilot to rudder only for GPS (and wing leveling.) Had to turn up the gain to about 70%, but it kept the sailplane circling (sometimes fiqure-8-ing) the field indefinitely, even when the wind started building, but it wasn’t a solid photography (or anything else) platform.

I have the picopilot with the ALT3T (throttle controlled alt. hold) which means I have both ailerons and elevator free of picopilot and, as IceBear suggests, could potentially use an fma co-pilot on those channels without any interference. My receiver question becomes moot because I’d just use one of the FS8s I have lying around. It has fail-safes and the glider would be much more stable for aerial photography. Right up to the point where the glider flies over water on an overcast day, giving the water a lower temp IR signature than the sky, oops.

[spirko]

Ended up getting a Berg 7. Thank you Smitty, programming fail-safes via computer is very nice.