Atmel stk500 and similar for a PIC?

[village_idiot]

I need to get learning to use microcontrollers, so I've been searching for a few tools. I've run across the Atmel STK500 which seems to support just about all of their MCUs with different adapter boards, and also seems to come with free full versions of their compiler. Is there anything similar for the PIC MCUs? I know that Microchip seems to feel that it is neccessary to gouge you for the compiler, which I feel is a mistake, so this is definitely going to weight the direction that I go.

I know I could probably get going by just soldering some terminals to a board and solder down a chip and use PonyProg and a complier to build and upload the code, but having everything laid out like the STK500 seems like it would be a better step for me right now. I've used the PonyProg hardware and software in the past for some work with the OOPic and some satellite receivers, but I would like to move to something more sophisticated.

So if you use the STK500 and Atmel software, please let me know what you fell are the good and bad points. If you know of a PIC system that compares, I would like to know about it too.

Please do not turn this into an AVR vs. PIC thread, there are far too many of those around to add to the junk! They each have their good points and bad points, and if possible I'll learn how to use both, but I have to start somewhere and at this moment it seems like the AVR would get me going cheaper faster, but I'm not sure of the alternatives for the PIC.

Thanks

[adamdb]

A plus for me with the Atmel micros is the free AVR-GCC C compiler which Atmel has integrated into their development studio. I usually use it with homemade PCB's and the serial programming method (dead simple), so have not used the STK500.

For PICs I have used the PIC development studio (assembly only) and the EPIC Pocket Programmer. Doesn't have the features of the STK500, but let's you program practically all the PIC chips (with appropriate adapter).
Adam

[village_idiot]

A long time ago I tried to learn assembly language, never could get the hang of it, so I want to stay with C for now which again puts the favor to the AVR becuase of the free software available.

For anything that I end up making, the STK500 will be fairly useless because just about everything will require surface mounted components. It really is more for a learning/prototyping tool.

[GailInNM]

For PIC, I have been using the mikroElektronika Pascal compiler for over a year now and really like it. They have 3 compilers available for downlaod in demo versions. Basic, C, and Pascal.
The demo versions are full featured with the only limitation being the compiled code can not exceed 2000 lines. Theis is approximately the limit on the small PIC processors any way so is very suitable for many projects. I have only had one project that exceeded the 2000 line limit.
They also have a pic development board that has dip sockets for alll most the PICS from 8 pin through 40 pin. The board has LED's for all the PIC pins and swtiches for all the pins, and includes a LCD plug in and a graphics LCD. Lots of other goodies. Not cheap but under 200 US$ and is complete. Sold only through distributors, but there are distributors in many countries.

Manufacturer link where you can download the compilers and view thier goodies is:
http://www.mikroe.com/
The US distributor is:
http://www.circuit-ed.com/index.aspx
Links to distributors in other countries are on the mikroe webpage.

Gail

[village_idiot]

The BigPIC4 kit looks like just what I want, just wish they would throw in the compiler... $400 for the dev kit and compiler is a bit much right now (and that's after the "discount" for buying the software with the dev kit).

Think I'll send Microchip and email tomorrow and see what they will do.

[rmteo]

VI,

I have two of the EasyPIC4 boards (although I use their BASIC compiler) and am very pleased with them.

The BigPIC4 board is $132 and the C compiler is $175 (if you get a combo) for a total of $307 - less than the $400 you mentioned.

As Gail mentioned above, you do not need the compiler initially - the free version will get you started really well. And you can still get the compiler for $175 (instead of $249) at a later date - as long as you can provide proof of purchase of the dev board.

Since you are looking at the BigPIC4 board, I am assuming that you are interested in high pin count devices. In that case, you should consider the LV 18FJ board instead. For the same $132 it supports the newer 3.3V PICs which are are also lower cost and have more features. Also, these low voltage PICs are much easier to use with the RF (2.4GHz and 900MHz) stuff which mostly run at 3.3V.
http://www.mikroe.com/en/tools/lv18fj/

[rcBluebird]

I used a development kit from Microchip a while ago, and it was the Picdem Plus 2. This can be used to program quite a bit of Pic components. MPLAB from Microchip is free to download, and it includes assembly compiler with integrated editor. I did with Pic16F84 and Pic18F450. However, it got tired of assembly, so I bought a C compiler MCC18 for the pic18F450. Later, I accquired several Pic18F1320 (18 pins) at the local electronic surplus store, so I used Pic18F1320 with MCC18 for most of my projects.

However, you may want to take a look at this link www.comfiletech.com for a PLC using advance basic and ladder logics with free compiler and text editor. I don't have an experience yet for this module, but it uses Atmel component AT128. I just look a little into their compiler, and it is much easier to work with the PIC. I plan to get a kit for me ($99.00 bucks) with a module and a studio package. I think it takes some C syntax too. It may use it to build a portable tachometer for fun. I'll let you know later how it goes.

I've never used STK500, so I don't have any idea about it. I apology if I am going off your topic.

RCbluebird.

[village_idiot]

The combo in my basket was actually $359 from circuit-ed. Those boards look super and if the AVR board was supported by the AVR compiler I might spend the extra for the much nicer board with the 2 displays.

And yes the 18F chips and maybe the dsPIC chips would be the eventual way to go, though I might consider higher power controllers like an ARM or Motorola down the line. Right now the aim is to get a PPM to serial device and serial to PWM (multiple channels) programmed, and start learning the more complex stuff along the way. The Microstar2000 uses the PIC 18F series, so I would want to eventually understand and program that chip, but I could do that with the in circuit programming interface.

How does the basic source code compile? Is it as small as the c code after compiling? Basic would be a faster method to get going, but less versitile in the long run, but still worth thinking about.

[village_idiot]

The link didn't work.

For doing the AVR the STK500 and STK501 look like the way to go for a basic prototyping platform. The AVR platforms from the above link from circuit-ed look like super delux boards.

[village_idiot]

If this could handle several different AVR or PIC chips by simply plugging them in, it would be just about ideal:
http://www.mikroe.com/en/tools/unids3/

[village_idiot]

Programming in Pascal is also an interesting idea, I've done some Pascal work many years ago, and it was pretty easy to get into...

[lajon63]

For anything that I end up making, the STK500 will be fairly useless because just about everything will require surface mounted components. It really is more for a learning/prototyping tool.
While true that the STK500 is great for prototyping it is not useless for your own boards. It works for in circuit programming (ISP) also (and the STK500 software is updated frequently to support new AVR models). Just include the ISP pinout in your designs (I don't even solder in header pins for ISP, it works fine just hand holding the cable and pins in place while programming).

The AVR Dragon might also be an option, it has limited prototyping support but supports debugging in addition to programming.

/Lars

[rmteo]

VI,

If you are looking at using different MCU's, then the UNI-DS would be the way to go.

You can download the free versions of the C and BASIC compilers (or Pascal if you are so inclinded) and see how they perform. AFAIK, they are equivalent in terms of performance and versatility.

Remember, you do not need any hardware to evaluate the compilers. As mentioned by Gail earlier, the demo versions of the compilers are not limited in any way - except for the size of the code.

[GailInNM]

Note that the mikroe compilers generate Intel hex code as one of the compiled files. So to get in on the cheap, use one of the demo compilers and then any of the $19,or less, wonder programers and you are going. Not a nice as using the development board, but functional. If you are just getting started with microcontrolers, it will probably be months before you run out of code space using the demo version. I have some fairly complex machine control programs and almost all of them run in less than 2K of program space. You can take baby steps in both hardware and software without any real cost penalty. Lets you play around and see if you like PIC's or not.
Gail

[adamdb]

The AVR Butterfly is an interesting development platform. Comes with an LCD, joystick pushbutton thing for input and you can use the free AVR-GCC. You can get it as www.smileymicros.com for $24.40. Just another option.
Adam

[village_idiot]

I thought about that, or trying to run the demo of MPlab for a while and the "student" version of the C compiler, but I hate running limited software if I don't have too.

The OOPic showed me a little of what the PIC chips can do and gave me a small look at programming in C++, so I'm just looking to turn a different need into a learning exercise. I also think I could apply a few uses for an MCU at work for a couple of things.

Support from the RC hackers seems to be about 50/50 between the AVR and PIC MCUs, so it makes it more difficult to chose. If there were far more uses of one over the other the choice would be easy. The AVR kit is almost half the price of the PIC kit ($80 vs $140) so that is indeed pushing for the AVR.

[village_idiot]

OK, now I see the difference between the price directly from Mikroe and the circuit-ed price... Circuit-ed includes all the displays for $184.00.

It still kind of bothers me that with the PIC systems it seems like they are nickle and dime'ing you to death. Change to a different series of chip, time for a new compiler, and no discount for owning the previous compiler.

Some of the RF chips I want to use have examples for PIC controllers, so it looks like that may be the way that I go. Is there a GCC version for the various PIC MCUs?

[TheSteve]

Lots of good free software for the AVR line. In terms of hardware I'd just grab an AVRISP2 for 40 bucks and be done with it. Anything you build just add the 6 pin header and you can program it. At the office we use Codevision AVR which isn't free but is a great program if you like programming the AVR line in C.

[xorcise]

I run the CircuitED site and we sell both PIC and AVR boards. The mE development boards are arguably the best on the market but may pinch the pocketbook of a budget minded hobbyist. The idea is to get someone started programming and developing projects quickly. If you are interested in PIC then the EasyPIC4 board will in-circuit program virtually every 10F to 18F made by Microchip and provide all the fundamental IO test functions right on the board.

[village_idiot]

I won't disagree about those boards, they are without a doubt exactly like what I want, it just bugs me that most companies will give away full versions of the compiler to get you using their products, but not Microchip. I understand why mE sells their compiler as they do not profit from the sale of the chips.

Also I think it is a good thing that you bundle up the displays with the boards, I'd be mighty mad if I ordered one from the manufacturer and opened it to see there were no displays. It is not clearly announced that they do not include the displays, where on your site (circuit-ed) it is clearly announced that those displays are included.

I am still kind of on the fence about which one to buy, but if I buy a PIC board I will buy it from circuit-ed, unfortunately it is also going to be taxed as I'm in NY too.

[jeffs555]

it just bugs me that most companies will give away full versions of the compiler to get you using their products, but not Microchip.

Don't know what companies you are talking about, but my experience is that most will give away an IDE and assembler, but charge for a C compiler. Don't know about Microchip, but often the chip manufacturer has licensed the C compiler from someone else, and can't legally give it away.

[xorcise]

I am still kind of on the fence about which one to buy, but if I buy a PIC board I will buy it from circuit-ed, unfortunately it is also going to be taxed as I'm in NY too.
Sorry about the taxes... that's unavoidable for NY.... elsewhere is not a problem in that regard. You can purchase directly from mikroElektronika and save on the taxes, although the product will arrive in about 10 days. We stock here and can deliver in about 2 days to most anywhere in the US.

We sell as Boards and Kits (comes with LCD, GLCD, and DS1820). You will also find a plethora of direct add-on boards and parts to suit many types of auxiliary circuit tests.

[village_idiot]

I think the easy AVR board is going to be the winner here, but I think I'll give it another day before I spend the money.

I assume that I can use the gcc AVR compiler to make the machine code, and then blast it to the MCU when it is installed on the dev board. I'll give the other compilers a try too, maybe I'll find that they are worth the money.

Part of this project is to learn to work with some of these different MCUs, another part is to learn programming in C so that I can apply it to larger devices and computers (with c++). I know there are differences between the C for an AVR and the C for a PC, but I'll learn that as I go along.

I may also drop back to a higher level language like Pascal (just for diversity)... Maybe I should look for a Cobal compiler for AVR :eek:

[rcBluebird]

I got the kit in the mail. It includes a Cubloc Studio Study Board 1 and a CB220 module. The language is basic, but it integrated with C syntax. Very cool, and I got the LCD (worked with LCD before) to work within a couple hours. Its configuration is the easiest one that I have not seen before to compare with Microchip (asm, C), Altera (Verilog, VHDL, C++), Xlinx (Verilog, VHDL, C++), Motorola microcontrollers (asm, C++ - Code Composer), Analog Devices (C, C++ - Blackfin), and TI DSP (C, C++).

[andrewm1973]

Maybe I should look for a Cobal compiler for AVR :eek:

I suggest the visual object oriented cobol with the (dot)net framework.

That is of course if you can't find a good prologue implimentation.

[mmprestine]

You guys are too funny......

Have you looked at the CCS compiler for PIC. They have many dev boards also. Key with this compiler are the built in features. Better than most.
www.ccsinfo.com

Not sure if it was mentioned but if you download MPLAB there is a free version of the CCS C compiler that comes with it. Good for a few different chips.

One plus is that Microchip give a lot of samples away. You should check this out.

As for the AVR STK500 it is very decent. I got one awhile back when they had a special, buy a STK500 and get a Dragon free for something like $49.99. Between the two you can do everything you need. AVR studio is free and very good. The only draw back is that you have to build up your own libraries for features. This doesn't take long since there is so much code available on the net. Check out www.avrfreaks.net and as mentioned the Smiley micros book is very good even if you buy the Easy AVR board. If you buy a board through a vendor like digikey they can then sample AVR parts to you. Something to consider.

[village_idiot]

If you buy a board through a vendor like digikey they can then sample AVR parts to you. Something to consider.


Really? :cool: I'll have to think about that then, not that they are very expensive.

[village_idiot]

Went with the mE easyAVR for now, should be here in a few days.

[xorcise]

Went with the mE easyAVR for now, should be here in a few days.
It'll ship tomorrow... :)

[village_idiot]

I would have ordered it earlier in the day, but I was kind of busy working on the paper work to buy a new server for work. Hopefully it won't take too long to get to me, it's possible that it will arrive on Saturday which would be great. I'm just getting to the point where I spend a lot of time sitting at my desk waiting for students instead of out doing work. If I have to be chained to my desk, I might as well be learning something.

[village_idiot]

OK, spent a bunch of time searching, and I don't find any IDE software that works directly with the easyAVR4 and C. Have a feeling I just made a $200 mistake.

WinAVR doesn't support this board
AVR Studio doesn't support this board

Searching AVRfreaks yields only a few mentions of the easyAVR board, and most of those are for version 3. Even the MikroE forums have little on this. So I'm starting to think that I better not even open the package and cut my losses to just the shipping.

And the biggest question is why doesn't AVR Studio support this board? There is a free SDK for that suite so it should have been pretty simple to make it hook in. WinAVR is an open sourced project, so once again it should have been easy to get supported.

When I bought this I just assumed it would work with these free tools, and that's why they didn't write a C compiler for it. Didn't have the time last week to properly search out these answers, so I'm already feeling a little cheated and the board hasn't even arrived yet. Guess I should have gone for the less expensive STK500 from the start since the support is so wide.

[xorcise]

We will provide a full refund (less shipping) on return if it doesn't suit your needs.

To qualify your requirements, the board has an on-board in-circuit USB programmer. Programmers simply upload hex files into their target device. You will find that the board will do that rather effortlessly. Compatibility issues are rudimentary at best. If the programs you use build an AVR hex file then you should have no concerns.

Beyond programming the AVR you will find that the board provides ease of testing your programs with the subsequent simplicity of reprogramming without removing your prototype circuitry.

[village_idiot]

It does seem to be a fine proto board and programer, but it is marketed as a development system which normally means some forms of emulation and in circuit monitoring. They should at the very least make it hook into AVR Studio and WinAVR/gccAVR since it would only cost them the time to write the code, this may be the part that most bothers me as I'll have to go outside of the programs to load the code into the MCU. I do hope the loader is at least a real win32 GUI application and not a command line loader. If it is command line then it is definitely coming back.

And for this kind of price I really did expect more than just a USB version of the PonyProg programmer. I built one of those years ago and used it for programming my OOPic based robot and some chips in satellite receivers. I could build another one out of stuff from my "junk" box and simply add a USB to RS232 and a power supply.

I'm sure this is a fine proto board, but I think the description is a little misleading as it does suggest a lot more than it seems to offer in terms of integration features.

[xorcise]

The USB Flash programmer is fast and simple to use... and it's an in-circuit programmer, which changes the dynamics (in a good way) of how you develop your projects.

You're tossing a lot of ideas around and second guessing without much experience with the applications. Once you have the board and start programming you will begin to understand its value.

[village_idiot]

I sent an email to mikroE today to see what they have to say. I also found out that for either the easyAVR or the STK500 I will need an additional device to do In Circuit Emulation, so I'll probably order an Atmel AVR Dragon for that. I'll look over the manuals when the easyAVR arrives and see if it will work for me. I see there are a lot of things that can be set (called fuses) that I'll need to see if it will handle. Though I will say that I'm still a little unhappy about it not working with AVR Studio and WinAVR so that I could have something closer to seemless.

[village_idiot]

The kit is here, but there are some soldering problems. I also sent an email to MikroE about some software questions, and I'm not entirely happy with the response. Their email support system seems to be messed up so I don't know if they will get my reply. In short I do not get a feeling of confidence in this product, so I have asked to return it. Initial feelings from a new user of a $200.00 purchase are critical. I've been working in electronics since 1990, and all of that is with high end broadcast level TV equipment. I need to be able to trouble-shoot and repair problems in equipment ranging from $400 black and white monitors to $100,000+ video camera systems (tubes and CCD). For me to say that I do not feel confident in a product takes a lot as I can get through (and have gone through) almost anything. Steep learning curves are the norm for me, but when there is a choice between something not well supported, and something supported, there is no point to the dealing with the steep curve. At this time I have no incentive to even attempt to create a simple program to test this board, and I did ask for an RMA for refund. In my opinion this board looks real slick, but I question it's performance. The only reason to go with a board like this is I wanted more learning and less assembly. I could easily build something similar for less money that would do what I needed, but didn't want to spend the time.

[nihil]

For what it's worth, I have an STK500 and couldn't be more pleased with it. I develop in an open source environment, and it's supported by every 8bit AVR tool I've tried to use. Not only that, but it has taken some serious abuse ('normal use' by my standards ;)), and it's still working, much to my amazement.

On the other hand, if the board you have uses standard ISP, I'd imagine it should be supported in any of the win32 IDE's. Perhaps not as well as the STK, but it should at minimum allow you to load your code and set fuses (but then $4 worth of parts and an open parallel port can do that). I don't use IDE's myself though (vi guy at heart), so I could be off.

There are several of us in the RCGroups chat that tinker with AVR microcontrollers and electronics in general. Feel free to stop in any time.

[village_idiot]

Going to buy an STK500 and a Dragon to get the ICE in AVR Studio. There are just so many people that use these tools compared to the MikroE boards. From what I've read, the Mikro boards are not supported in WinAVR or AVR Studio, and I'm not about to try it now. I'll write the $20 for shipping off as my stupidity for not properly researching this item before purchasing it.

[daleksw]

Surprised no-one's mentioned Futurlec here. (www.futurlec.com). Their AVR Stamp module (http://futurlec.com/ET-AVR_Stamp.shtml) with development board and programmer is incredible value. Combine it with the free version of Bascom-AVR (www.mcselec.com) and you have an incredibly powerful platform for next to nothing.

David

[AndyKunz]

VI - what are you trying to accomplish? I have 15 years of PIC boards around here - good chance I've got something you can use.

Andy

[village_idiot]

Mostly learning to program C and learning to work with these MCUs so that I can scale things up later on. After I get done with blinky lights I want to move on to PPM decoding to serial data and serial data to PWM for servo controls.

An MP3 and AAC+ player with ethernet connection to connect to streams served from a Shoutcast (http stream) server, maybe play with freeRTOS and finally taking over the known universe with a MCU. I'll probably chose one of the more powerful Freescale MCUs for the taking over the Universe part :D

The reason I chose the AVR came down to compilers. The AVR has a free full featured C compiler, and the PIC doesn't. Too bad there doesn't seem to be a gnu PIC C compiler. It also has a cheap in circuit emulator/debugger (AVR Dragon).

[AndyKunz]

Microchip's C30 compiler (the full-featured version you can download off their website, though only 90 days of full features) is GNU.

I am about finished with an application in Hitech C for the PIC18, moved it to an Atmel AT91SAM7X (changes mostly for CPU differences) using GCC, then back onto a dsPIC33 (again, mostly CPU differences). The PIC18 version uses my own RTOS, the Atmel used FreeRTOS and LWIP, and the dsPIC33 is back to my own again with the Microchip stack.

You might need to look at a different PIC. Or use one of the free PIC compilers such as PICCLITE from Hitech. You can get all kinds of PIC programmers off the web too - it only takes two TTL pins and a 13V source. They are DIRT CHEAP.

Andy

[Zeta Phoenix]

VI,

I'm sortof in the same boat of wanting to start in C with LED's and work up. I decided to start with the PicKit2 from Microchip. I do not know if this would fit your needs, but at $35, it might be looking into. http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en023805

For a compiler, I was going to use the for mentioned PICCLITE.

-Jon

[village_idiot]

The only reason to not start with the PIC chips is the limited function of the compilers. There are no limits with the AVR Studio and WinAVR applications. The AVR STK500 is only $85+ and a lot of people are getting by with just the Dragon at about $50. With the Dragon you would need to wire up you own sockets and lights, etc.

[davemac2]

I think the Dragon by itself with a cheap small breadboard will serve you well for months before you really need a more complex protyping board. You may find that making your own PCB's or buying some blank proto PCB's for the specific target processor is more the way to go later. The hardest part here is starting some projects and using the tools. Concentrate on that first and get going! :) (ie. this is the kick in your pants. :)

dave mc

[AndyKunz]

The optimizer is limited, not the compiler. If you want to develop commercial stuff, pay the freight. If you just want to do hobby stuff and LEARN C, then the free versions are fine.

A word to the wise - compiler bugs are usually in the optimizers, not in the codegen. You get a more reliable product with optimizers disabled. In my experience, this applies to ARM, X86, PIC, and 68XXX.

Andy

[village_idiot]

The hardest part here is starting some projects and using the tools. Concentrate on that first and get going! :) (ie. this is the kick in your pants. :)

dave mc

That's why I'm going to start with the STK500 and Dragon for ICE. I could easily build the boards I need, but I want to concentrate on learning not more soldering.

Andy, what PIC dev boards/tools do you have that you could spare? I kind of need something to get into the JTAG (ICP) port of an 18Fxxx MCU. I have a feeling that is where I need to set the ADC reference for my MicroStar2000, and so I could load the only copy of the firmware for the DOGM display. That copy of firmware contains the boot loader and operating system so I don't think I could push it over the serial port (though I could be wrong). I really want to get that project back on track :(

[AndyKunz]

PIC18 does not have JTAG - this is the ICSP port (pins RB6, RB7, and MCLR). That's a programmer jack - Microchip uses a very simple programming interface (far simpler than JTAG).

I do my programming with either a www.tech-tools.com QuickWriter (5V parts) or ICD2-Lite (3.3V parts, limited availability right now - but basically the same as the "Hockey Puck" ICD2). Can't spare either one of those - but have you looked at the various build-your-own programmers? Try www.piclist.com for starters.

As for dev boards, e-mail me what features you are looking for. I have a LOT of different boards, everything from PIC10 to PIC24/dsPIC33 (and hopefully soon a PIC32!). Even my Victory ESCs are programmed in C (16F88). If you tell me what features you want, I might have it available. I have some of the Mchip boards that I could part with - I just can't find them right now.

Andy

[zwolfpack]

For PIC development, I have used or evaluated five different "free" C compiler offerings. By far my favorite is Hi-Tech PICCLite: http://www.htsoft.com/products/compilers/PICClite.php.

I've used this for about 5 years with great success. I use the PIC 16F877 & 16F876A, and have managed to cram a ton of stuff within the 2K limitation of the free edition.

PICC can be used from within the Microchip MELAB IDE, however for the past year or so I've been using Hi-Tech's HI-TIDE IDE which I like even better.

For development cards, I still use the LAB-X2 that I got around Y2K, from http://www.melabs.com. I also have one of their older EPIC programmers, as well as their meloader bootloader (now discontinued) which I really like.

Sparkfun has several inexpensive PIC development cards also; I have not worked with any of these. http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=2_9. They also have programmers: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php?cPath=1_6. I have one of the USB ZIF ones that I use occasionally (generally I only use a programmer to burn a bootloader into a brand new part).

[village_idiot]

My "finished" protected Dragon, and the STK500 with a quick travel case that I slapped together:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/vidiot/dragon5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/vidiot/stk500.jpg

[MatC]

Without getting in the least evangelistic, here is my setup:
- Microchip's MPLab. Good dev environment. $free
- Hitech's picc-lite. C compiler, works great. (doesn't support all devices, but seems to do all the ones I need). Integrates nicely with MPLab. $free.
- In circuit debugger: I use a knockoff ICD2 which I got as a kit from Elektor. About £35/$70 as I recall.

You can use other/cheaper programmers with mplab if you want, but this one lets me do in circuit debugging in C. I develop in C and tweak the output code where needed if it's not fast or small enough.

Mat

http://www.htsoft.com/products/compilers/PICClite.php