Why Do You / Why Would You Come to an F3F Race?

[Kyle Paulson]

I’m trying to understand better what actually motivates pilots to come to an F3F race.

Before answering let’s assume some given things:
1)You have a plane to compete with!
2)You know when and where the competition is.
3)You have confidence that when you get there it will be organized, run smooth and safe.

What is it for you? There are no wrong answers. Why have you not come? What is it that keeps you coming back?

For me it goes like this and this is also somewhat listed by priority.
1)Good competitive pilots to compete with, see them fly, learn by watching, asking them questions knowing that I can seriously learn from them, ultimately making me a better pilot too. When I know the fast guys are going it really motivates me to go also!
2)Good company and crowd! Guys I like to hang out with, do dinner after the event. Talk smack with before during and after the event. And yes I like to bug them during the week too. I also like to learn together with them, shooting ideas back and forth getting insight. This also gets me interested and motivated to go to the races.
3)A beautiful location. I like the desert I like the coast. Have you ever been to Banos? Wow! I’ll drive 4 hours there, fly for 2 and then drive 4 hours home just to fly that place on a Saturday.

These would be the primary things to motivate me but as most of you know, I’ll drive 8 hours to race. I’ll fly around the world to do 5 rounds, (Approximately 8 minutes of flying time). I’ll risk my plane, I’ll sweat, I’ll do what ever I have to just to get a race in. But that’s just me.

At times I do hesitate to go to a race because the landing is bad, but for the most part I just complain about it and do it anyways. I know this keeps people from coming. If that’s the case for you then maybe one of your top priorities is a “Safe” LZ. I can understand that. Please let us know.

I’m looking for this insight because the SCSR board will be making the new 2008 schedule soon and it is my intention to give them this feedback so that we can grow SCSR for the 2008 season. If we could come up with, say the top five things that get pilots to a race then we could take the questions to the next level and ask things like; What is it that motivates the best pilots to come to an event? What is it that makes for good company? Would you like to see BBQ’s after a race? What would be you’re 5 favorite spots to hold a competition?

Anyways, I hope you get were I’m going and I really hope you will take the time to respond and give your insight.

Thanks for the comments in advance!

Kyle

[infopimp]

New F3Fhead here... sorry for the rambling reply but personally, there are a lot of things drawing me in.

What has surprised me most is how much F3F has improved my flying in general, and how quickly.... I think the couple races I've participated in taught more more than many, many months of dorking around! For example, I now bang F3F-style turns with my Destiny even when "dorking around" and have found I can retain energy better now than ever before.

I learn more watching people like you (Kyle), Tom, DZ than I would just flying on my own.... seeing how the different planes and pilots take different "lines" on the course in changing conditions makes every round something new and exciting to watch.... and during all that time I find myself planning mentally for my next round.

The chatter in the "pits" is also fun... not just to hear about tactics ("how many slugs were you using that round?") but to B.S. in general. Where else can I hang out with 20 or more top pilots for an afternoon? Those who know me know I'm (almost too) social... so I really like that part of the scene.

Having a race measured objectively gives you a solid indication of if and how you are improving (thermals notwithstanding). There is nothing for me that can replace the thrill of hearing the buzzer going off... there is a lot of mental work involved. I'm still new so I'm tweaking settings after each practice session or race, in search of the perfect setup...

F3F is generally a very safe venue to bring these big expensive ships out of the hangar - you know that nobody is going to be crowding your airspace... and there is something thrilling about seeing a 3m ship that weighs a bunch banging turns...

In short, I'm hooked!!!

[Kyle Paulson]

Nice! Thanks infopimp!

[chetosmachine]

I like F3F races because i can live talk with friends from all over the world, not just in the forums. It's always nicer.

I like F3F because you fight against yourself. You can't control any other factor. All the mistakes are only your fault, so no stupid excuses.

I like F3F races because there's always someone who complains about something. I always find someone to have fun with, when we talk about the complaining dude ;)

I don't like bad landing zones, but... if other do land safe there, why can't you do the same?

I will greatly improve my skills if i listen to pro's advices. I don't always listen to them, so i'm kinda stuck in the 50's runs.... at least i do control much better the plane, and my landing skills are not that bad after all.

You can see all the top planes..... sometimes they are for sale :D

It's always fun to fly in others places.

As we say, "In Spain, it all about F3F, then some more F3F" :cool:

[glderguy]

Ive only flown a few rounds in one F3f race, new plane, little to no ballast, new F3F flier. Lift wasnt that good making flying/ballasting/etc more on the technical side, so being new at it I didnt find it as exciting as it might have been had conditions been booming. I find unlimited MOM, for me anyway, to be more exciting, even in light conditions.
But I think F3F is a good safe way to learn how to be a better MOM slope racer and being around other good fliers and watching them fly is always a positive learning experience which will no doubt help one be a much better flier in any type of slope flying. I may try it again someday, hopefully in better lift.
Walter

[Doc Holiday48]

Kyle as you know I'm addicted and should go to meetings for my addiction. So where and when are the meetings? Could be fun, a bunch of addicted slope racer talking about their addiction.

My only real issue keeping me from racing is family. I don't work weekends and it is my time to play, I work all week around the house, making sure all my chores are done so I can have a day to play. My wife is pretty understanding about it all though there are times where family activities do get in the way. As far as sites are concerned, I fly at them all. I feel flying at different spots improves my overall flying ability and has improved my ability to land a plane safely without damage. Aside from doing my best at a race, the most important factor is to try to race all day and come home with as little damage as possible.

I would really like to see the SCSR find more sites to race at, so that we have less of an impact on the local sport flyers and more places to choose from for weather conditions.

Bob

[Kyle Paulson]

Thanks Bob for the insight. Family I understand. As little damage as possable we all strive for but it does go with the teritory. More sights is always nice.

Thanks Bob!

[jofo1]

What draws me to comps is a desire to get the most out of the plane, the conditions, and my abilities. I prefer to fly with people that are like minded; interested in seeing the planes flown well and in people feeling good about what they were able to accomplish. I'm not too hung up on it being an official race, a good practice session can be just as rewarding, but a comp provides a good framework to determine who is getting the most out of equip, conditions, and their abilities and lets me know where I am relative to others. Having the best pilots around is important, it shortens the learning curve for everyone, and helps to raise the quality of everyone's flying. I prefer a site that is going to have even conditions, and beautiful vistas followed by ballistic conditions. I've only flown maybe ten races, so I'm still left wondering "what am I capable of with this plane?". That question motivates me to practice and race.

The single biggest obstacle for me is time. Three young kids, all heavily involved in athletics make weekend free time very rare, when I can get away I do. Strangley enough I do most of my flying mid week as my job is more flexible than my family.

j

[target]

I don't have to work weekends all the time; usually just when there is a race, and its windy.
AND, it's twice as bad cause I work on boats, so when the wind's up, I get a beating at work, too!

Other than that, all the stepsons are at their Dads house for now, and my wife works on the weekends, so I am usually OK there.
But when she asks me to do something with her on a weekend, I feel it's best to keep the peace.
She's cool, and almost NEVER asks me to not go to a race.

T

[reelpilot]

For me going to an F3F race is all about competition. I'm very competitive and when I go to a race I want to be flying with all of the top pilots. It's also a good way to watch and learn the various techniques that we all employ. I enjoy being around guys who fly nice planes and seeing what's new. I'm usually the only person flying open class composite planes at my slope, so it's great to hang out with the guys and have $30,000 + of race planes in one place. Location is another important factor for me. If I were still living in SoCal then I would be going to a ton of races, but since I live in Colorado Springs now, it's harder for me to get out and race. I keep my race plane in LA, so I only need to bring my radio with me. This unfortunately limits me though. I would love to attend races in NorCal and I can fly into SFO easily, but my plane is in LA. I then need to find someone in SoCal who is going to the race and can pick my plane up. I guess the bottom line for me is having races that are closer to where I can fly into, mainly LAX and if things work out SFO. Lastly having races that take the entire day can limit me. Since I have to fly in and in some cases fly back out, I'm limited to the flight schedule. Having pilots meetings at 10am and racing at 11am often means I can't make it. If I know that I'm going to miss a round or two I often don't show up even though I'm in town. I'm all for getting in as many rounds as possible, but I like to start racing when the winds more consistently filled in, usually by 1200-100. Obviously if the forecast is calling for screaming winds from early on, then lets get racing around 10am. After all my ballast belongs in the plane, not in a tupperware box. If the wind is blowing, he will come.

Doug

[Brandon]

What I really enjoy most is the competition. I think it's great to have the best pilots around to judge and measure against. I think it is the responsibility of those top pilots to help the newer guys setup their aircraft and help with tuning issues. It would mean more to me to have a top pilot come up to me an say let me take a look at your setup, than to simply say I think you're running a little hot. I have aways been a competitive person and thats what draws me to come out and race. I like the fact that on most occasions there is a bit of friendly trash talking somewhere in the pits and often just before launch. There are times when I cannot make it due to family issues and plans and that will not change. I still will put the family first and flying second. The part that is often difficult is when races are scheduled at the same location back to back to back because we simply don't have accurate information. I cannot and will not drive 3 hours one way and 3 hours back on a Sunday in 100+ degree heat when I have to work the next day! I believe the F3F community should do more to promote the events and do their very best to encourage the newbies to come out and get over the "fear factor" It does no good to hold events where there are individuals who believe that there is an overcrowding issue and their airtime will be in jeopardy! These are just a few examples of why i think there are deterrents as opposed to invitations to the less fortunate. Now that school is back in session and I have some weekends off I can get out and fly on a regular basis......

Brandon :D

[SchiessCo]

First let me say that in general I think the SCSR board does an excellent job of scheduling and running races, and that the racers are a very welcoming group (though some of you guys are a little stingy with the advice). Considering the varying location of pilots, varying interests (60", MOM, etc) and competition from other events (PSS Fest, pot luck, Soar Utah, etc), it must be all but impossible to come up with a schedule everybody can agree on.

I like Big races with lots of competitors because it gives me time to fly my round, land, grab a pole (usually for a number of races), and still have time to inspect / fix my airplane, figure out ballast, trims, tuning etc. When I've raced with only 6-7 other guys, I don't have time to make changes, I feel rushed, and end up with a half-ass set-up and the results to match. I like inland sites because 95% of all the sloping I've ever done have been inland. That said, I enjoyed Torrey (even though I stunk!!!) and really enjoyed flying Fermin. I want good conditions because being an F3F newb, I don't have the skills to compete on a real technical coarse, and being super competitive, finishing towards the bottom of the pack just isn't fun.

My favorite sites are Parker, Grass and Fermin; but I liked racing at Torrey and would definitely be up for Cajon and Little Mountain if conditions were good. I'd also like to try some new places; Los Banos and other new sites. I think it's fun to explore, and I think it takes away a bit of the home field advantage. At first I was worried about LZs, but after racing Fermin and Parker I'm not concerned at all.

As far as scheduling for 2008, I'd rather see fewer but bigger races; I think having more races (every two three weeks) makes for a smaller turn-outs, and increases the impact on sport flyers. I'd like to go to some new slopes, and maybe do a North vs. South in Central Cal. And last but not least, like Brandon, I am not at all excited to race in the desert on a 100+ day. Call me a pussy, but it really wipes me out the next day. So I'd rather see coastal sites in the summer, and inland sites the rest of the year.

whew, Pete

[SchiessCo]

....and I'd really like to see the SCSR pull off the F3F Clinic / VRQ Fund Raiser. I'd race more if I raced better (yeah, I know you don't get better if you don't race.)...

[Kyle Paulson]

Thanks Doug, Brandon and Pete. This is good stuff. We need more insight like this. Who is next? Yes the SCSR board has a tuff job making the schedule. I really am hoping that if we get enough of a common censes it will help them with the new 2008 schedule. But this can only happen if everyone gives their two cents. Let’s hear it, I know you’re out there……. Pretty please!

You see, it would not be right for the board to take one persons opinion, or even a few people’s opinions or interests. We need to accommodate the entire community and better yet those who are on the fence trying to decide if they want to give it a try. We need to hear from everyone. Call you’re friends and ask them to post….. Pretty please! :)

Looking forward,

Next?

KP

[infopimp]

Random idea: more north vs. south CA rivalry events....

[Kyle Paulson]

Nice! I would like to do that at Banos. :)

[F3X]

<<< common censes it will help them with the new 2008 schedule. But this can only happen if everyone gives their two cents. Let’s hear it, I know you’re out there……. Pretty please!

>>> We need to accommodate the entire community and better yet those who are on the fence trying to decide if they want to give it a try. >>> :)
KP

So far it looks like there is general consensus:
Wants to race against the better pilots and more of them!
Wants races at each slope and stay out of the heat of the dessert in the summer.
Wants slopes with safe LZ.

Seheduling a lot of races is very good. But to get the better guys and more guys to a race I think scheduling only 8 season points races through out the year is the way to go, these races will be well attended by guys interested in the SCSR Chamionship and all the money and fame that brings and the other races which historically have a smaller turn out are used for tweaking and practing.
I have been told and I agree that looking at a 18 race sehedule is impossable to commit to by most pilots, looking at a 8 race points schedule is doable with some effort. Sure the core group will be at the non points race anyway and thats the perfect place to learn but the SCSR points races will bring a bigger crowd. We need new blood!

[THUREN]

If the events were a bit more spread out, I think I would feel more inclined to MAKE TIME to come. Not sure why though? Maybe since the races would seem like more of a novelty, instead of every weekend. Kinda giving me the feeling that "I better race now, since it's gonna be a while"...


:D

Don

[F3X]

Lets pop in a question along the same thoughts of what would motivate you to race.
In F3B there is a A and B league. They do this because F3B takes a few extra guys to run a event and the A will work while the B fly and so on.

Also your not competing against the top guys (score wise) right out of the box.

In F3F there is no A and B league but would that interest you guys just starting out or would you rather just jump in? As for scoring you would pull the scores from the regular comp, No 1000 for the A and 1000 for the B in round 1 for example. This way you know how you fair against the fast guy of the round (either an A or B league pilot can get the fast time) Basically its a recognition thing and would make a difference in season points and awards. Would that take some edge off or is it just a bad idea??

[Terminator]

Edit...

[Kyle Paulson]

Great thoughts Tom! Thank you!

I do think it’s a bit early to come to a consensus yet. So far we only have had 10 pilots say what motivates them to go to a race. I believe for us to really get a solid foundation of info we need a lot more pilots to respond. …………hello!?

How about you Tom? What truly motivates you to come to the races?

KP

[F3X]

Great thoughts Tom! Thank you!
<<>>
How about you Tom? What truly motivates you to come to the races?

KP

The Girls!
The Money!
The Fame!

Oh,,,,,,we are talking RC gliders! We need Umbrella girls! (http://www.umbrellagirlsusa.com/) That would motivate more pilots.

[jofo1]

i might be able to arrange that...

[garylegerton]

Race motivations:

1. Hanging out- I realy enjoy hanging out with the sailplane crowd. I know a few people might not agree with me but I have yet to find a hobby, sport or intrest that contains this high of percentage of people that I enjoy hanging out with and having the same like interest as myself. Lets face it were're a cool group of guys.( To bad the girls haven't figured this out yet!) I really enjoy talking and learning about the science and engineering of sailplane flight with all the other great pilots involved in this hobby.

2. The competition-There really is 2 different comps going on in F3F at the same time. one with your peers and the other with yourself. Sure doing well in a race is great but I also get just as much satisfaction out of a race if I walk away having learned something else new in this massive list of variables that make up this sport and also knowing I flew well for the conditions I was delt. I think F3F racing really teaches you a great deal of nuances that just end up getting overlooked if you fun fly.

3: I enjoy being outdoors-Be it the beach, desert ,lake, or wherever.

I really have missed too many races the last couple of seasons due to the personal drama thats been going on in my life. Things have settled down now a bit and I personally would like to start attending more races this year. However there still seems to be a couple hurdles for me to overcome to make it to a race. 1.- It has to fall on a weekend that Iam not with my daughters,they come first. That factor right there knocks me down to a 50/50 chance that I can make it. 2.- Living in San Diego makes all the locations besides Torrey a pretty long drive. Not that I mind the driving part I have drove 6 hrs to Banos to race for 1 day in the past. It is more of a budget issue as the only vehicle I own only gets 12 MPG and it ends up costing me $45-$60 to make it to a race if I drive myself. It seems that a lot of the San Diego crowd has lost intrest so there is not as much opportunity for carpooling like I have done in the past. This reason alone has prevented me from attending quite a few races last season. If I had some carpool buddies I wouldn't hesitate to drive even to Vincent for a race.

Gary

[timmig]

ALL good summations and suggestions above with Tom and Gary especially. I disagree about the girls though--- I really enjoy hanging out with the guys at the slope and we don't need girls there!! Go take em dancing if you want girls! :) Just bring a samich and a few beers for after the races!!!:)
I'd love to see 8 points races and NOT 18 races on the schedule. I can't schedule 18 and trying to do so just dilutes the opportunities to fly against the best which it what I like to do! Or, schedule 18--- but designate 8 that count for the season total and the other's are for - different/new venues when we find them-- and newbies that won't be intimidated by the guys going for season points.
I'd love to see the sport grow-- and I'm finally getting back to my own "order" in house that I can get back out and fly again. So I'm looking to next year as well for the season. I don't mind flying 6 or 8 rounds in a comp-- I don't need 12 or 15 in a day to "fly my brains" out-- as like Gary says--I love the social aspect as much as the flying-- and If I want to fly 15 rounds-- I can pull a small group together to practise with nearly any time-- so I don't have to use the comps as my only flying time. ;)
FWIW
Tim

OH--- and coastal comps in the summer with desert comps for the winter seem to make more sense to me. I don't like "frying in the desert" when we have good venues at the coast to use. :p I'll continue to explore the opportunity to fly at "Old Man's". But the San Onofre Power CO. turned us down to use their parking lot on top---so I've got to find another way!

[darrellzaballos]

The things that motivate me to attend a certain F3F race would be.

1. A good location one that has a history of producing good lift at that time of year in the past. A site that would be consistent to a certain extent so I can hone my skills, find the line that is working for the day and extract everything out of the plane that I'm flying. Also to walk away after the contest weather I won or not knowing that I flew to the best of my abilities.

2. I really like a safe landing zone I believe it doesn't really matter how strong the lift is if you can't fly in round 2. One side note every new place I go to I always ask how do you land here, what's the approach I try and watch everyone it doesn't matter how good you are. I can always learn something from someone whether it be right or wrong.

3. Would be the competition, I love when all the top dogs are there it gives me something to shoot for. Also there's a lot to learn watching them fly different lines, different turn styles, and different climb outs for a certain slope.

Got a little story to tell you guys I know a few of you heard this already but here goes.

I went to a comp that Tim Bigley put on at the beginning of this year at Thornton beach up North, it was the first one I've been to since the year before.

After about round two or three I think I was dialed for the day I had the course length down within half a span or so flying the Aris, Tom Copp and Kyle Paulson where there from down south so I thought it would be a really good comp to go to not to mention our local hot shots that attended.

After every flight I'd check with the turn judges and ask how long I was going most of the time they said I was right on the pole, Kyle was flying right after me and was always about two seconds faster, I didn't know what to do.

I was flying flat turns (pylon style) and Kyle was doing his thing (up North we call it the KP turn). After all the years of flying F3B learning the style of turn that I do, flying the straightest, tightest of course I could I was getting beat!!

After the race I started to think what did I learn, well on a Lip slope its faster to do what Kyle was doing (even though he was flying a longer distance, but maintaining a more constant speed) then to do what I was doing. Sooooo I went on a mission as some would call it. I told myself I was going to learn this style of turn no matter how long it took me. Low and behold I have, it's not totally polished but I think I can get by.

So the moral of my story is you CAN teach an old dog new tricks if he gets beat enough. LOL

DZ

[infopimp]

DZ - it was cool watching that - I could TELL you were making your own version of the KP "roller coaster" or "slot car" turns... big round turns were winning the day... it didn't seem right to me because Kyle was looked like he was flying such big loops there... the energy retention didn't make sense to me.

Point being: the fact that the top pilots are watching each other and changing their approaches to see if they can shave seconds was visible even to me, a total newbie.... and THAT is cool because it means that even you guys are still learning.... not just those of us getting 50s and 60s.

[Kyle Paulson]

This is great! Thanks Gary, Tim and DZ. Thanks for taking the time to put down such constructive thoughts.

Now, Tom Copp on the other hand......... :confused: I think he's having a hard time figuring out this thread?

KP :D

[darrellzaballos]

I don't know Kyle I kinda like Toms Umbrella Girls....... :) :)

[gingin]

i like the idea of 8 races - easier to plan/schedule and attend.

val

[target]

Hi, Val-

I had hoped to meet you at the Torrey race last April(?).... I happened to have a plane to send up your way, but something must have come up, and you didn't make it!

I hope to get up there this winter, once work slows a bit, to check out the Stables. Are you coming down to race in SoCal then??

So far, we've had as guests:
Harry S.
Tim C.
Tim B.
Darrell Z.
Ron V.
Kurt M.

and I've probably forgotten someone else.

It's nice seeing new guys race with the regular guys.


T

[Kyle Paulson]

T, what would motivate you to go to a race in NorCal?

[target]

T, what would motivate you to go to a race in NorCal?


A free ride.
I hate driving, I do 75 miles one way to work! Luckily, I don't drive it every day.

[SchiessCo]

T, what would motivate you to go to a race in NorCal?
Big race, lot's of people, Saturday night dinner and sleepover, and of course...hot umbrella girls.

My truck seats 4 and my tent sleeps one (unless an umbrella girl gets tired...) :D

Pete

[djklein21]

Ok guys here it is, the things I take into account when deciding to attend an F3F event.

Convenience-

I currently enjoy three different soaring challenges. I fly F3b, F3F, and American TD. I really enjoy the thermaling challenges because it was an entirely new challenge. Also I like the fact that monthly TD contests are held within 5 minutes of my house. I am able to enjoy a Sunday mourning of competition and be finished in time to meet my wife for a 1pm lunch. This keeps me out of the dog house.

Landing Zone-

Next, I am able to keep my planes in really good shape for a long time. I have more flight time on my one year old Pike Perfect, than I have had on any slope racing plane. The plane is in amazing shape with no dents or dings. For slope racing I need to eep around a really tough model. My F3b planes don't really fit that list. So they are grounded to F3b use, racing Torrey and Whitepoint. I try to keep an F3F plane around like my NYX and then my Aris but the NYX was sold and the ARIS died, so for another month I have only my unobtanium Estrella.

Weather-

The weather doesn't factor into my plans too much. As long as I can count on lift, I will go hot or cold. I like Vincent, even in the summer, and I like Grass Mt even in the cold winter (as long as it isn't fogged in).

Distance-

I will drive. I live in San Diego so they are all far. They are all day trips, leaving early in the mourning and returning late in the evening. I appreciate having carpool buddies. Bingham is gone, but Legerton is again interested. This helps.

Timing-

This can never be helped, and it is different for everyone. I can not do back to back weekends of sailplane trips. This means that there will be no F3F after Grass Mt, Davenport ISR, Visalia fall fest, Sac spring fling... We should not schedule points races the weekend after any big sloping events. I don't expect SCSR to take thermal events into consideration, there are just too many other things to consider. We should however take large slope racing events into account.

So after saying all of that, I really want to go to NorCal for an Event at the Stables, I also want to fly Cajon. I have some new slope toys on the horizon and will attend venues like Cajon, Vincent, and Man on Man events. I won't have my new slope toys for another month or two, so I will have to hold off until then.

[Kyle Paulson]

Nice Dave! That was good insight. Thank you.

[SpeedMaster]

Why I love F3F?

- It gives me a reason for buying 1000Euro planes without my girlfriend complaining!

Other than that, there`s nothing like flying a F3F glider on the course going fast and geting that "rythm". You bang nice turns and really hear it scream. -You compete with your self and your friends and there is always a chance for not surviving that last turn. Gets the adrenaline going. And its all done in a nice senery.

Other than that I love the F3F crowd here in Norway. They are always helpfull and smiling. And its cool to see gus from 15 to 75 having fun together without noticing the age diffference.

[jcosta]

One of the things I like best about F3F is that an average pilot can win a round over more experienced pilots if he has very good air and does not make any mistakes.

Of course, several rounds will usually even out the results and the top guys will win the race, but it is a thrill to be able to beat, for instance, one of the Herrig brothers in a round or two...

[djklein21]

One of the things I like best about F3F is that an average pilot can win a round over more experienced pilots if he has very good air and does not make any mistakes.

Of course, several rounds will usually even out the results and the top guys will win the race, but it is a thrill to be able to beat, for instance, one of the Herrig brothers in a round or two...

And that is the exact reason any decent pilot doesn't like F3F. Sometimes it is better to be lucky that to be good.

[target]

I like F3F; what does that mean, Dave!?!

Target, Still your friend!?!

[jcosta]

And that is the exact reason any decent pilot doesn't like F3F. Sometimes it is better to be lucky that to be good.


Why do the top F3B and F3J pilots keep flying F3F, then?

[Kyle Paulson]

Ok guys, lets get back on the thread subject; what motivates you to go to a race, not, do you like F3F. Thank you. Next!

KP

[jcosta]

Kyle


Thanks for leading us back on track...

Just to be a little nasty, what makes it easy for me to go to an F3F race is the fact that I only drive 5 miles (all highway) to the slope, I park in the slope's parking, climb two flights of stairs and can start flying.

Of course, I've also been know to drive 1000 miles to go and return for a race at La Muela...

[Kyle Paulson]

La Muela... Nice! What will motivate me to go to La Muela...? when I make enough money to go. Some day soon I hope. :)

[Joe W]

One of the things I like best about F3F is that an average pilot can win a round over more experienced pilots if he has very good air and does not make any mistakes.

Of course, several rounds will usually even out the results and the top guys will win the race, but it is a thrill to be able to beat, for instance, one of the Herrig brothers in a round or two...

I've heard this rationale in the past in relation to F3J. Specifically, the concept that it is good that in F3J the same guys don't win every weekend... An extension of this concept of adding luck to a contest format is embodied in a thermal duration contest advertised recently: http://www.blindthermalcontest.com/ Why not just roll dice???

I use the quote "I'd rather be lucky than good" a lot, but I'd really rather that the skills get measured fairly and accurately! IMO, the primary reason why some top F3B & F3J pilots continue to fly F3F is that it is the only game in town for slope competition. From a percentage standpoint, there is not a lot of cross-over from B/J to J though.

To get back on topic, I have to agree with the opinions of David Klein. I would add to his list:

Camaraderie- A chance to hang out with like-minded soaring pilots, and get some other views on how to fly better. The fun factor also gets filed in this category, and should not be minimized when considering the rationale for attendance!

Skill comparison- Even with the high luck factor of F3J, one can get a measurement of how ones skills and knowledge stacks up against other pilots, as well as how ones own skills and knowledge is advancing (or even, decaying!).

Joe

[Kai@UCSB]

IMO, the primary reason why some top F3B & F3J pilots continue to fly F3J is that it is the only game in town for slope competition. From a percentage standpoint, there is not a lot of cross-over from B/J to J though.


Joe,

Is there a typo here? :D J or F?

-Kai

[jcosta]

La Muela... Nice! What will motivate me to go to La Muela...? when I make enough money to go. Some day soon I hope. :)


As a member of the organizing club of the International Contest at La Muela(A.A. de Guadalajara=, let me say that we would be thrilled to have you racing with us. :D

[jcosta]

Joe,

Is there a typo here? :D J or F?

-Kai

I think it is a typo. Anyway, most of the top F3B guys are flying F3F, at least in Europe... This is less true for F3J, but there are some F3J pilots in F3F too.

[Kyle Paulson]

Thanks JW and thanks jcosta. Some day!

[Kyle Paulson]

I would like to say that if you have not posted yet, it would be just fine to do as JW has and just say "ditto" or "I agree with so and so", if a previous pilots personal preferences are the same as yours.

Again, just looking for as many personal opinions / preferences as possable.

Next....

[djklein21]

JCosta and others, I didn't mean to say that anyone who doesn't agree isn't a decent pilot. I only meant to say that the luck factor part is really the Achilies heal of F3F. Man on Man formats whether slope racing or thermal soaring are designed to take away this luck factor and are the prefered format amongst many top pilots.

Now back to the topic.

I left out two very important topics that JW picked up on.

Camaraderie-
This is a super important part for me. I think Gary Legerton put it reall well. I get to socialize with pilots of all ages. You just cant beat glider pilots for being good people. For this reason I won't buy from ebay, but I buy with great confidence from the classifieds on RCGroups.

Skill Improvement- Flying competitively forces you to improve. In 2002 I thought I was a hot shot, fun flying to the extreme. My first F3F event showed me that I really only new my right from left, but was clueless about energy management and plane setup. F3F, F3b, and TD has given me a chance to learn from the best.

Skill Comparison- F3F and F3X events give me a chance to measure my skill against the best. At an F3F event, It isn't how fast I flew, it is how I placed against Kyle Paulson, one of my glider heros.


I would like to take the opportunity to thank Kyle for starting this thread. I know some originally read this as a slight against the SCSR board and their scheduling. This isn't the case at all. This should be seen as a constructive action taken in order to gather information from the pilots for the purpose of creating an even better schedule for 2008. I would like to also thank the SCSR board for the positive evolution they have had in the 4 years I have been flying F3F. All of the guys work really hard at making slope racing an even better experience for Southern California slope pilots. I am proud to be associated with such a great group.

Thanks,
David Klein
who would also like to fly la muela in the future.

[Joe W]

Joe,

Is there a typo here? :D J or F?

-Kai
Typo... (past tense)

Joe

PS I'm not sure of David Kleins counting abilities, but I see him as one of the fliers that I admire for his enthusiasm as well as for his desire for improvement.

[Kyle Paulson]

Thanks Dave for the kind words and the clarification on this thread.

[djklein21]

Typo... (past tense)

Joe

PS I'm not sure of David Kleins counting abilities, but I see him as one of the fliers that I admire for his enthusiasm as well as for his desire for improvement.

2 you picked up on, the third "the skill improvement" slowed down for you a few years ago. I still have the exciting "this is new, and I am getting better fast" feeling every week.

BTW, my in the head math, including counting, slowed down when I learned to program everything in Matlab rather than using the back of an envelope.

:)

[Tim Cone]

It's mostly about the people. All around the planet, there are folks out there that love doing the F3F thing. For the most part, I'll take a day hanging out with them over just about anything.

The people who object to the luck factor in F3F are ignoring the long history of having the same few guys luckily winning contest after contest. We don't need to re-hash the scoring methodology debates unless people have new ideas...Total Time Scoring is dead, long live Total Time Scoring. That said, any new ideas?

My motivation to attend races is tied to who I'll have a chance to compare my abilities against. I like getting beat...more to learn from someone faster than me.

The real reason I think 18 league scored races is excessive is that it leaves no time to practice. I've been to "Practice Sessions" where everybody acts like it's a race. The old competitive juices get to flowing and people forget to try new things...different lines, different turn styles, practicing cut recoveries, etc. People would be better served by having those same 18 days broken down into 10 organized practice days and 8 League races. The 10 practice days should not be scored, not just not league scored, but not scored at all due to our tendency to compete. Let's face, if you don't know where you stack up against each other after the last umpteen contests, one more practice session where doing it the same old wrong way isn't going to matter a hell of a lot. The clinical definition of insanity is repeating the circumstances, expecting different results. If you don't like where you've been placing at contests, try something different.

Tim

[F3X]

Hey Kyle! Are we ready for a consensus yet? http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8080771&postcount=17

[jcosta]

It's mostly about the people. All around the planet, there are folks out there that love doing the F3F thing. For the most part, I'll take a day hanging out with them over just about anything.


Yep, and about watching you pulverize the record at La Moo and have a photofinish race with Pierre and Iñaki...

Even though it is none of my business, I agree that 18 races is too much. Bear in mind that there are other races to attend to...

[Kyle Paulson]

Tom, not tell we all get to hear what motivates you to go to a race. Let's hear it dude!

[F3X]

I would like to say that if you have not posted yet, it would be just fine to do as JW has and just say "ditto" or "I agree with so and so", if a previous pilots personal preferences are the same as yours.

Again, just looking for as many personal opinions / preferences as possable.

Next....

ditto.

Its all been covered.
and covered
and covered....

[Tim Cone]

I think consensus is the word you are looking for. If we had a conscious, I'd have to wake up.

TC

[MarcusT]

If we had a conscious, I'd have to wake up.TC

No comment on that one, Timmy :rolleyes:

As far as Why Do? and Why Would?, I think Tom is right in that it's all been pretty much covered.

I don't think that there's really anything new and different that can be done to bring out new, or more people. Those that are going to come out and race will come out and race. Those that continually find excuses to not race will continue to find those same excuses.

Okay, now that my pesimistic overall view is out there, here's what I think about things for me personally.

Limit the races to once a month, with an occasional second thrown in during "peak" season. Being a NorCal boy, I'd like to start making it down for some of the SoCal races . . . with one a month being held up here, and one a month being held in SoCal, that's more than enough races.

I'm still pretty new to the whole F3F thing, but I'm enjoying learning how to play the game from Tom, and Kyle, and the Tim's, and even DZ! ;) It's the most fun I've had in Soaring in a long, long time.

Mark Triebes

[Bryan Quick]

I'm not in California. I might come out for a race to try it. I might even make a weekend trip to Colorado for a race. I think the closest slope is in Kansas about 4 1/2 hours away.

I just like to fly. If I were in California, I'd probably attend every race and crash a lot of models.

Bryan

[jcosta]

.

I just like to fly. If I were in California, I'd probably attend every race and crash a lot of models.



Tom, you've got to sponsor Bryan to move to California. :p :p :p

[mithrandir]

I would go 'cuz everyone knows chicks dig RC Glider Pilots!!! lol

[Doc Holiday48]

Yep, and about watching you pulverize the record at La Moo and have a photofinish race with Pierre and Iñaki...

Even though it is none of my business, I agree that 18 races is too much. Bear in mind that there are other races to attend to...

Your right 18 races does seem like a lot. But the schedule was set so that if you couldn't make a race on one weekend because of family or other activities, you could still go to another and hopefully you would make 8 or more races a year. Also some are canceled because of weather or site conditions. Or as in our last one a lack of participation. :eek: Yes for some reason all but about 3 guys had something more important to do than race planes. OMG. :D :D :D

Bob

[timmig]

The last year we had great participation--AND completed ALL the scheduled races was when we had some flexibility in the schedule. The races were all scheduled on a Saturday-- no more than 10 I believe-- with the CD's discretion to "move" the race to accomodate a ball game at White Point--OR-- if conditions showed that waiting a day and changing the venue would provide better wind! We had no less than 10 pilots I believe and a high of approximately 24? And ALL races got flown! Amazing what a little flexibility and luck can do for ya!!
I suggest we schedule the Parker races like last year--during the SA months-- and leave flexibility for the others-- perhaps the best of both worlds.

Just a thought--- that was two years ago--
FWIW
Tim

[Kyle Paulson]

We had 24 pilots respond as to what would motivate then to go to an F3F race. I grouped categories together that make sense. As Tom Copp noted early on in the post it’s quite clear what gets pilots to the races. With 24 pilots responding it pretty much takes the debate factor out of the discussion. The numbers speak for themselves. What surprised me the most was that a “Safe LZ” was not a priority for most. I would not have believed that with out seeing this thread/pole myself. Here is the consensus:

#1 Significant, bigger events, with the best pilots to compete against, learn from and compare skill- 21

#2 Camaraderie- 13

#3 Local / Convenient / Short drive- 12

#4 A good past history/forecast for good conditions- 9

#5 Obligations at home / work complete- 9

#6 Even Conditions / No lottery- 7

#7 Safe LZ- 5

#8 Beautiful Location- 4

#9 Less than 100+ degrees- 4

#10 See/Show the latest top notch models- 3

#11 North vs. South race- 3



Thank you all for the input!

Looking forward,

KP

[Rey_Harju]

This thread ultimately is about the schedule. Here are some questions that if answered would give SCSR some guidance.

1. What kind of event do you think would entice more newbies?

2. Would you rather race against another racer or would you rather race against the clock?

3. Would you like to attend a clinic conducted by some of the best F3F racers in the world?

4. Would you like to contribute financially towards a US team competing in Europe?

5. Would you rather have ten guys show up at an F3F race, you being one, and get 15 races in, or would you rather have thirty guys show up and you get five races?

6. Would you rather have 18 scheduled races a year with 10 counting towards season points or would you rather have 10 races period?

7. Would you like to race 60" planes that do darned near as fast as the big planes, but cost a third? Or would you rather risk a $2,000 plane every time you go out? Or would you like to reduce the risk further and race fomies?

8. If you would like to fly 60" or foamies, would you like to compete against other planes of the same type or would you like to compete against the unlimited planes?

9. Would you be interested in driving over 200 miles to race against the very best?

10. How many F3F events would you attend if everything were perfect from your viewpoint?

11. What would have to change from the current setup?

12. How many MOMs would you attend if everything were perfect from your viewpoint?

13. What would have to change from the current setup?

14. What's your skill level: 1 to 10, top slope racer=10, rank newbie=1.

--Rey

[F3X]

1. What kind of event do you think would entice more newbies?
1. A Practice event the day or week before a race. They can learn the ropes and take some of the mystery out of the event. They can see that everyone racing is just as full of :censored: as the next guy so no reason to be nervous about attending a race.

2. Would you rather race against another racer or would you rather race against the clock?
2. On a monthly or bi-monthly schedule I would rather race against the clock. If your talking unlimited mom the 2x or 3x a year is fine, it’s just not worth risking an unlimited model to fly against the same 4-6 guys every other month. But if the race is significant (20+ pilots) than I am more likely to attend.

3. Would you like to attend a clinic conducted by some of the best F3F racers in the world?
3. Sure...Know any?


4. Would you like to contribute financially towards a US team competing in Europe?
4. Every chance I get. These guys represent the USA abroad and bring back ideas that help raise our collective skills. USA F3F is a direct result of whats happening around the world. A $100.00 donation isn't going to ruin me and if it helps our team a little am all in.


5. Would you rather have ten guys show up at an F3F race, you being one, and get 15 races in, or would you rather have thirty guys show up and you get five races?
5. I like 15-20 pilots at a race. It’s a good balance between a enjoyable event and a mad rush. 10 guys on a fast hill is a mad rush, flying 2-ups to slow the pace down a little is not F3F and really messes with the scoring. If it's a practice day sure why not but you asked about a race. 30 pilots and 5 rounds are fine if the air is somewhat consistent. It puts more emphasis on laying down a good run every time.


6. Would you rather have 18 scheduled races a year with 10 counting towards season points or would you rather have 10 races period?
6. I would rather have the 10 league races and 4-5 other days used as organized practices where I can learn how to do it better and put it to use on League race days. I honestly believe that a few real practices would raise the bar in our local events. The 18/10 historically draws a low pilot count.


7. Would you like to race 60" planes that do darned near as fast as the big planes, but cost a third? Or would you rather risk a $2,000 plane every time you go out? Or would you like to reduce the risk further and race fomies?
7. F3F or man on man? I don't think of F3F as a risk so you must be asking about Man on Man. Sure 60" races are a blast! Foamys are a blast. What I don't like is trying to race 3 or 4 classes the same day and have a worthless result. 2 classes a day is fine if you can count 6-9 rounds. I don't think foamys and crunchies mix well in the same race. Different level of risk.


8. If you would like to fly 60" or foamies, would you like to compete against other planes of the same type or would you like to compete against the unlimited
planes?
8. See #7


9. Would you be interested in driving over 200 miles to race against the very best?
9. Yes, I would even fly across the planet.


10. How many F3F events would you attend if everything were perfect from your viewpoint?
10. All 10 them, if everything was perfect :D


11. What would have to change from the current setup?
11. Its covered in the poll already.


12. How many MOMs would you attend if everything were perfect from your viewpoint?
12. 3 unlimited, maybe a few 60" and foam.


13. What would have to change from the current setup?
13. See # 11


14. What's your skill level: 1 to 10, top slope racer=10, rank newbie=1.
14. Depends who you ask. :p

[F3X]

<< What surprised me the most was that a “Safe LZ” was not a priority for most. I would not have believed that with out seeing this thread/pole myself. >>
KP

Kyle, you didn't ask specific questions, you left it wide open so not everyone had the same ideas or reasons. I am sure if there was a check box about LZ conditions all would be in agreement.

But having not asked specific questions it is interesting that many chose to mention flying against the best pilots was a motivator. That's very cool.

[Kyle Paulson]

Please, let’s keep this post on topic. The right questions now are ones that stick to the topic of F3F and how do we accomplish what the pole concluded all for the purpose of improving the attendance of F3F races. The questions might be these:

1) How many Significant / Points races seem right to you? How many would dilute and how many is not enough? How many could you truly commit to?

2) What gets the best pilots to the races other than knowing there will be good competition and knowing their will be a decent number of pilots to compete against?

3) To advance “Camaraderie” to a higher level, what would you like to see happen? Maybe a BBQ after the race?

4) Where do you live so more races can be scheduled in a closer proximity to the majority of racers as to improve attendance?

Answers to these 4 questions would help the SoCal Board better plan the schedule to accommodate what the pole has already determined would improve attendance. Asking if 10 is the right number will not get us the best info. Asking the question I asked (#1) should get us really close. The goal is not how many races I would like to have; the goal is what the majority could commit to. Tom I understand you’re comment about not asking specific questions earlier but I did that for a reason. It was my purpose to leave the first part of the discussion open ended to really understand where pilots are at. Safe LZ is defiantly a consideration and I’m sure if we were landing on a bed of nails that no one would come to the race. :p Maybe a good question to our local SoCal group would be what slopes have we used in the past that you would prefer not to land at because of the bad landing? But this question would be for SoCal and maybe NorCal.

Let er rip!

[hogfarmer]

What is it for you? There are no wrong answers. Why have you not come? What is it that keeps you coming back?



When I lived in CA for a few months I made it out to one event and really liked it. I suspect 99% of glider pilots are like me now and don't attend f3f races because there is nothing going on anywhere near where I live. Outside of CA where in the states is there even an active f3f group? (meaning they actually have semi-regular races, not just a bunch of guys flying f3f gliders on the slope).

Personally I liked f3f more then f3b/j because it takes a lot less commitment and equipment, you just show up and fly. Also you don't have to rely on other people to have fun or be competitive as with b or j. If there were an active group within an hour or 2 drive I would compete at every contest. If I flew that much then I might actually make a trip out to CA for some bigger events.

[djklein21]

I would like to copy and Paste Toms answer to Rey's questions. That is exactly how I feel. I make a point to make the ISR and the GM2DUSR. I feel that that is enough for MOM for me. It draws the big dawgs out.

As far as F3F I really like the idea of a BBQ or dinner with the pilots. I love getting dinner after Parker or fish tacos after Whitepoint. Hanging with the guys after an event is really great.

[F3X]

I would like to copy and Paste Toms answer to Rey's questions. That is exactly how I feel. I make a point to make the ISR and the GM2DUSR. I feel that that is enough for MOM for me. It draws the big dawgs out.

As far as F3F I really like the idea of a BBQ or dinner with the pilots. I love getting dinner after Parker or fish tacos after Whitepoint. Hanging with the guys after an event is really great.

Yep, Dave you have been to the WC and now you can see what we are missing at some of our F3F races. Nobody hangs out (its better now) but a lot has to do with having scores at the event and a little get together after is cool. In Europe the races are a party all day long; you can go from one camp to the next and BS, eat, drink and laugh with the guys. That one of the benefits of having a lot of guys at the race and time to visit, you can be serious and be all about planes and lap times or loose and have a good time. Having scores at the races puts a nice finish to the day, you know how you did, you congratulate the winners and you pound a few Fish Tacos or Mexican food after.

But don't go off topic or Kyle (The Thread Nazi) will get upset :D :D

[SchiessCo]

Please, let’s keep this post on topic. The right questions now are ones that stick to the topic of F3F and how do we accomplish what the pole concluded all for the purpose of improving the attendance of F3F races. The questions might be these:
1) I could commit to 8-10 unlimited F3F races. I do like the idea of practice days, and I'd love a skills workshop as well; maybe a two day event with skills/practice on day one and a race on day two. And please take other sloping events into account when scheduling.

2) I don't know about the best pilots, but good competion, decent conditions and good turnouts (20ish) will get me to the races.

3) A BBQ or fish tacos at the local joint after a Saturday race works me. On Sundays, I just want to race and go home home; get ready for the work week.

4) Lovely North Hills, at the northern end of the San Fernando Valley. Parker, Vincent and Grass are the closest slopes, but I really want to mix it up. San Diego, Cajon, Little Mountain, Fermin, White Point, are all good, and I'd like to see a race in Central CA as well.

Pete
on-topic

[timmig]

# or races?---I'd try to make ALL of an 8 race schedule for F3F> that would leave room for 2 to 3 MOM unlimited events-- and the other family obligations I have.

Beyond that-- I like LARGER events-- with more social opportunities and BBQ after or during would be great!! I like flying against the best-- not trying to get in 15 rounds at each comp. I'm happy with 5 to 8 rounds and 18 to 25 pilots. To me, that's ideal.

If I want to practise--then we can do 2 up--15 rounds with a smaller group.

To Rey's point--I'm probably a 5 when it comes to experience/ability- I have some--but still a LOT to learn.
FWIW
Tim

[Kyle Paulson]

Thanks pilots for the great input! Looking forward to a great 2008 season. I really think you’re input will help the SoCal board in there decision making process. :)

I am closing this thread, stay tuned!

KP