Thermal Sniffers (Varios) on the market

[knowhereman]

Hi guys,

I just got my first XC ship and want to get my hands on a Vario or thermal sniffer. Can anyone offer advice as to whats on the market and who sells them. Opinions welcome.

[nuevo]

Here's one.

http://kennedycomposites.com/accessories-picolario.html

[Thermaler]

Is there anything out there that is affordable? Scratch buildable?
$400, :eek:

Joe

[Viktor]

http://wstech.de
www.tek-variometer.de

[Andy W]

Is there anything out there that is affordable? Scratch buildable?
$400, :eek:

Joe

I have asked MX (who makes and sells the ZLog) for a version that would put out an audio signal that we could feed to our own Tx module. There are quite a few "Hobby" AM and FM Tx modules you can build. If I could find one that would work with the common 2-way radios, I think we'd be able to generate enough interest to get him to build that capability in..
..a

[IBWALT]

http://wstech.de
www.tek-variometer.de

These two varios are legal in Europe because they operate on the EU FRS frequency (433 mhz). In the US the 433 mhz band is right in the middle of the 70 cm amateur band and illegal unless you have a US amateur radio operators license.

The Picolario has a US version that operates on the US FRS frequencies (462 mhz) and is legal for anyone to use. There are also some of the old ACE Thermal Sniffers still around that can be picked up for a reasonable price (50 - 75 dollars). Properly setup they work very well.

Walt

[jtlsf5]

You may still find an Ace Thermal Sniffler floating around. As supplied they are not set up for total energy (though can be converted) and are powered by an onboard 9V battery. These units transmit on 49Mhz and were notoriously sensitive, both to tuning and to orientation of the receiver's whip antenna. All in all a good start, but a nuisance compared to what is currently available.

There are used Multiplex Helios varios still available occasionally. These are in the 26-27 Mhz band, are powered by the airborne battery, and are very sensitive to antenna placement and tuning, which must be done regularly. Again, not designed for total energy, but can be converted.

The best unit for the money in my book is the Skymelody, the tek-variometer link located in Victor's post. For the last few years these have been supplied in the US by Dean Gradwell (dean@xcsoaring.com) who has supported this vario with parts and service as needed. I have one of these and love it. It can be expanded with the Skypanel module for verbal feedback on lots of other info, but I prefer just the basic Skymelody vario. The Skymelody transmits on 433 or 434 Mhz using a roughly 5" antenna in the plane, and we use common Bearcat scanner for the receiver. I usually plug a Radio Shack aux amp/speaker (about $12) into the earphone jack so the driver, my spotter and I can all hear the telemetry that the vario is sending back.

Can't really comment on the Eagle Tree or Piccolario, I've never used either. I know people that have used both, but I've never seen one in an XC plane. I wouldn't read anything into this, as most of my XC flying is on the west coast, and I know and support Dean Gradwell. He has always showed up at the various XC events (Montague-his event, Cal Valley, Davis (my home site), and Oregon) with probes, tubing, extra transmitter and vario modules, etc.

Jim Thomas

[FLY F3B]

So, I have had my only experience with an onboard vario just this year. I bought a picolario, and used it in my 1/3 scale DG 800S. It worked very well. It is very small, and the transmitter seems to have great range. The DG is a glass (no carbon) environment where the unit is mounted. Yesterday, I installed and tried the TEK probe (total energy probe), and I am blown away at how well it works. I did not have very high expectations, probably due to my lack of knowledge when it comes to the inner workings of the instrument itself, but I am very pleased.

For those who may not be familiar, the total energy probe basically compensates for any stick inputs the pilot may be providing to get the climbing or descending tones from the vario. An example would be if your glider is flying in stable (non-lift, non-sink) air, and you pull up...without the TE probe your vario would give you the high pitched beeps of a climb, of course until the stall happened or you pushed over to level back out again... With the probe, you would only hear the sound of a slow descent whether the glider is going up or not. What this tells you is that the air you are flying in is not rising, and the total energy of your flight at that particular moment is not changing...

Hope that helps.

Mike

[StevenatorLTFO]

Not to derail this thread, but it got me to wondering, is a vario allowed for LSF tasks like the cross country, and the long duration flights?

Steve

[dharban]

I've used both the Pic and the Eagle Tree. Both are great. If I were principally going to use it in a cross country application I would absolutely go with the Eagle Tree. It has the ability to transmit both altitude (including energy corrected) and speed. I have been using it as a recorder do gather data on speed vs. sink rates on a TD ship in various states of trim and ballast. It gives great results.

Don

[jbeanelliott]

I am interested in your experiences with the Eagle Tree system versus the Picolario.

Does the Eagle Tree airspeed sensor require a pitot tube?

If so, where did you mount the pitot tube on your glider (wing leading edge, tail, nose, etc.?)

Is the accuracy of the total energy compensation dependent on whether the pitot tube is mounted so that it is in a clean airstream (free from turbulence from the wing or fuselage)?

Which does the best job of providing total energy compensation, the Eagle Tree or the Picolario?

Thanks in advance. -John Elliott


I've used both the Pic and the Eagle Tree. Both are great. If I were principally going to use it in a cross country application I would absolutely go with the Eagle Tree. It has the ability to transmit both altitude (including energy corrected) and speed. I have been using it as a recorder do gather data on speed vs. sink rates on a TD ship in various states of trim and ballast. It gives great results.

Don

[dougmc]

Not to derail this thread, but it got me to wondering, is a vario allowed for LSF tasks like the cross country, and the long duration flights?They are not prohibited.

Really, it's up to you. You might feel that you're cheating if you use them -- after all, they weren't available when people did their LSF tasks decades ago -- but you might not. (You might also feel that using the newest moldie plane is cheating for the same reason :) )

In any event, as I understand it, they're commonly used for the long cross country flights.

[charlie hepler]

I had the ACE Thermal Sniffer yrs ago and liked it alot. Being it was one of the few available at the time it was a no brainer for competion work. I accidently sold the transmitter that was still in a plane and forgot who got it or where it went BUT I do still have the reciever part with the earphones and headband speakers.

Anyone know where you could get a transmitter for it today? Would it be of any use to you?

[dougmc]

In the US the 433 mhz band is right in the middle of the 70 cm amateur band and illegal unless you have a US amateur radio operators license.They're probably illegal even then, unless modified to include your call sign every ten minutes.

For telecommand (your TX, controlling your plane) your TX doesn't need to give your call sign if you have your callsign and address on the transmitter and keep the power down to 1 watt, but I see no such exception for telemetry.

Unless the power and/or duty cycle is low enough to fit into the part 15 regulations (so no license needed at all), or modified to transmit a call sign too, I don't see how they could be legal for use even by hams.

Of course, while it might be technically illegal, in practice I wouldn't expect the FCC to knock down your door or even the local hams to track you down and report you.

[dharban]

Does the Eagle Tree airspeed sensor require a pitot tube?

If so, where did you mount the pitot tube on your glider (wing leading edge, tail, nose, etc.?)

Is the accuracy of the total energy compensation dependent on whether the pitot tube is mounted so that it is in a clean airstream (free from turbulence from the wing or fuselage)?

Which does the best job of providing total energy compensation, the Eagle Tree or the Picolario?

The Eagle Tree does require a pitot tube mounted in clean air.

In its principal application (a 1/3 scale KA6) the tube is mounted high on the front of the vertical fin. In its current application (measuring performance of a TD ship) I have mounted it on the removeable canopy -- in clean air.

I have not used the Picolario with TEC. The Eagle Tree allows you to adjust the value for compensation.

Don

[dharban]

One thing to keep in mind. The Pic is simple, compact and light -- but it cannot record data. The Eagle Tree is a little more complex, cumbersome and heavy -- but it can record data and you do not have to worry about overlapping channels with someone else on the field.

I will continue to use the Pic for some contest work. As I mentioned, though, I am sold on using the Eagle Tree for collecting flight data to optimize your plane and to optimize your flying. I am working on improving my zoom launches and this morning collected data which resulted in the attached curve

[tonyestep]

Guys, here's one that hasn't been mentioned. My vario is made by WSTech and is distributed by hyperflight, a Brit company. You can read about it at:
http://www.hyperflight.co.uk/products.asp?code=CSV1

Hyperflight is run by Neil Stainton, a very nice guy who has gone out of his way to be helpful to me. His email is sales@hyperflight.co.uk

Here are the advantages of the WS in my opinion: The tone is supremely reliable. If it sez you are going up, you are. If not, not.
It can be controlled from the ground to switch among three modes: quiet (just voltage warnings); altitude announcement (five foot resolution); and vario mode. You can launch in quiet mode, flip the switch to check the lousiness of your launch, and then go to vario mode.
The vario mode is unusually powerful because it gives you extra valuable info about how you're doing.

What's so special about its vario mode? Every twenty seconds, the little dominatrix inside the thing tells you your change in altitude over the past 20 seconds. This is unbelievably helpful in spotty lift. When the lift is broken up, it tells you when to stop circling and hunt, and when you reconnect, it tells you that too. It is also extremely helpful when there is a corridor of good air in which you can climb without turning.

If you're thinking about a vario, this is one to consider. Note that not all fuselages have room for this or any other vario. An Espada, for example, has no place to put anything. An Ava or Graphite, on the other hand, will easily accommodate one, as will a Luckenbach Supra.

I was a pretty competitive flyer thirty years ago, but my visual acuity isn't what it was then. I have timed for Cody and DP, and both of them flew their planes right out of my vision, which sort of let me know where I stood! But the real problem is not that the plane vanishes from sight; the real issue is that I've lost the sharp vision to pick up the subtle cues and little changes of attitude and behavior that tells me about the air I'm in. A vario can restore some of that info and replace some of what the old orbs lose with age, and the WStech does the best job of those I've tried.

[kwmtrubrit]

Guys, here's one that hasn't been mentioned. My vario is made by WSTech and is distributed by hyperflight, a Brit company. You can read about it at:
http://www.hyperflight.co.uk/products.asp?code=CSV1

Take a look at reply No.7 on this thread. He talks about a German vario and the legalities of using it in the US due to its frequency. This British one is on the same frequency, or do they have one marketed for the US? I would get one if that's the case. However, the Pound Sterling to the US Dollar sucks so bad I can't even go home on vacation and get one while I'm there :censored:

Keith

[knowhereman]

That was my concern on Freq also. Knowing the Australian Government ours are probably different to every other country, I will have to check.

[tonyestep]

The WStech vario that I have operates on the U.S. ham band, which is actually my preference since I am a licensed ham. However, Neil mentioned to me some time ago in an email that there was going to a U.S. family band version, and by now there probably is. You could check with him. Re the pound/dollar exchange rate: that's the truth, the dollar has tanked over the past 15 months or so.

[arukum17]

surprising how there is no used market on ebay for any brand of these magical little devices...am I looking correctly?

[Neil Stainton]

Thank you Tony for posting about your experiences with the WsTech vario. We have sold quite a few to American and Australian modellers. I believe the 433 Mhz band is legal in Australia, and is okay for US radio hams. I am not sure of the status of the 462 Mhz version. I will find out and let people know.

Neil.

[Phoebusflyer]

Why do you need one anyway? Can't you watch your plane rise and figure it's in lift without a fancy gadget to tell you it is??? Even buzzards are a good indicator! Why spend bucks when you really don't need to?

[dharban]

Why spend bucks when you really don't need to?

Because it help me resist the temptation to send the money to the DNC or RNC :). Its really silly to spend any money on any of the toys. I just can't help myself.

Don

[jtlsf5]

Why do you need one anyway? Can't you watch your plane rise and figure it's in lift without a fancy gadget to tell you it is??? Even buzzards are a good indicator! Why spend bucks when you really don't need to?

If you recheck where this thread started, you'll note that it began with an XC ship. Varios have a very real purpose in XC ships/flying. When a plane is at 3000+ AGL it gets pretty small and you can't see that telltale rock of the wings when you hit lift. Or getting kind of low 1/3 of a mile away, you want and need all the help you can get to detect lift that can save a flight, and more important, the plane.

A total energy vario tells you when you have encountered up-going air. Its still up to you to fly the plane smoothly, efficiently and cored in the lift. Think of it as another form of sensory input, just like thermalling birds, dust-laden feeders, etc.

There isn't much to compare to a vario screaming "you're going up-FAST" plus the sight of a 11 lb, 15' span monster getting real little. Like someone (I won't quote and embarrass him) said, if you can still see it, its not high enough.

XC (with telemetry) is the purest test of model vs. the elements, and the most full scale-like form of model flying there is.

Jim Thomas

[Thermaler]

"XC (with telemetry) is the purest test of model vs. the elements, and the most full scale-like form of model flying there is. "

I might have the exception to the XC ship test, seeing the 173" wing of my Super Esprit look like a passenger jet at altitude minus the con trail is a bit of a test.
I have blinked and had 8 pairs eyes (3 OFB's, me and my glasses) searching to help me find it more than once.

Joe

[Andy W]

Why do you need one anyway? Can't you watch your plane rise and figure it's in lift without a fancy gadget to tell you it is???

If you can immediately spot whether a 3-4m model is in lift or sink at 3000-4000', you have better eyes than anyone I know. I think Joe would agree..
..a

[tonyestep]

[QUOTE=Why do you need one anyway? Can't you watch your plane rise and figure it's in lift without a fancy gadget to tell you it is???...[/QUOTE]

Well, I can't speak for others but it helps me. At the Mid-American Championships this weekend I flew in RES and won by several hundred points, mostly against guys half my age. There were no thermals, just weird rotors coming from the various treelines around the field boundaries. You'd get a bump, ride it for as long as it lasted, then move on to search for another. Most guys were down in 3 minutes or less. The wind was 10 mph +, and the lift was so weak that a 10-foot gain in 20 seconds was good. Circling was sure death on most flights. I'm sure that if I had eyes like Cody Remington I might have been able to do as well, but I don't, and I probably didn't even when I was his age.

[Andy W]

Being in less sink than other pilots is often all it takes.. :)
..a

[Thermaler]

There is only the size of the dot in the sky for me and once it becomes so small that the rear end cliches out come the spoilers and a course change until things RELAX.
Usually about 2/5's the altidute then it is start over. Best time, 2:17:??, a field record for about ten minutes. My OFB beat me by less than 10 seconds with a Prodigy. We kept trying but never broke a hour the rest of the day.
I love running 4 servos with a 1500 mah battery, it has lasted all day with 5.1 volts showing when I get home. Saved a lot of lead with this battery choice.
Joe

[Phoebusflyer]

I stand corrected, guys!!! Yes, a XC ship definitely needs some additional help. I personally have not tried XC with a model, but have always wanted to do so, even in the late 70's. I just couldn't find a crew that was willing to help.
All the best, and good luck on your xc ventures!!!

[danstrider]

FWIW, I tried to collect a bunch of vario links too ... this might help:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307042

After flying a compensated vario, I can honestly say it's worth lightening your wallet. Every time I take it out, I feel like I'm cheating ;-)

Dan