Anyone flying A123's in their Giant Scale 3D plane?

[3Deranged]

Seen a lot of interesting banter on the A123's. Haven't really seen any solid performance data in a giant scale electric yet. Am I missing a thread? I'm planning a giant scale 3D plane(QQ Yak 86") and would really like to try out the A123 packs. Realize they're heavier/less mah's but with the larger planes the extra weight shouldn't be that much of an issue. Would like to go with a 50cc conversion on 12s(lipo)= 13-14s A123's. I'm assuming with a 2300 mah M1 cell that I will have to go to a 2pack configuration. This will be about 65-70oz pack as opposed to about 50-56oz lipo setup. Too much weight for the perfomance? Don't mind shorter flights if I can get back up quicker with the faster charge times. Not sure if going with the 1pack setup would be bright either. Would obviously save some weight but would that be enough to give me a decent flight time? Any thoughts? I like the safety factor of the M1's, especially when you're going to pack 14-28 of those puppies into your plane. :rolleyes: Any suggestions would be appreciated and thanks to all those who post their expriences for all of us to study. :cool:

[blucor basher]

1.I say go for it. Without people trying new things, the hobby won't advance much.

2.14S 2p seems about right. Over 3KW should be possible on a basic A60 outrunner.

3.I doubt that the extra pound is going to bother that plane much. In testing of our 85" planes, 3D performance is acceptable up to about 19 lbs.

[3Deranged]

Dang it, why do I have to be the first to test these crazy ideas out?! :p Surely some of our more adventurous modelers have looked into this? Seen posts on smaller 3 and 4s planes, but not much larger stuff. Mostly sport/warbird types that aren't looking for insane power levels. Oh well into the unknown again... :D I'm also wondering why the pattern guys haven't started using these cells other than the weight. They get about 80 flights off of a 10s2p pack and the lipos are toast. Seems with the higher discharge rates that some pattern electrics need , M1's would be about right. But with the weight restrictions I could understand. Maybe use them as practice packs and not cook their competition lipos! I hear there are some newer offerings in the M1 type battery dept. and A123 Racing is coming out with a 5300-5600mah cell(4.85oz. each I think).

Don't know whether I can hold out till you get your 85" planes on the market Blucor! Good to hear planes this size don't mind an extra pound or two(hey that sounds familiar)But I am going to try the M1's. Like the safer chemistry for sure. I'd think I'd rather hear a pop-off valve than a pop! :eek:
Thanks for the weight/acceptable 3D performance facts. I might just be in the ballpark.
Oh yeah, figure the A60-18L swinging a 22 x 12 or maybe a 24 x 12 Mejlik would get to the "come on funny feelin'" point!
1.I say go for it. Without people trying new things, the hobby won't advance much.

2.14S 2p seems about right. Over 3KW should be possible on a basic A60 outrunner.

3.I doubt that the extra pound is going to bother that plane much. In testing of our 85" planes, 3D performance is acceptable up to about 19 lbs.

[blucor basher]

So, enjoy being on the cutting egde! I wuldn't be worried about whether it will work, we know it will "work". We just need to find out how well.

[F1 Rocket]

I looked into using these in our Sundowner and spoke with Brain at Tanic Packs about putting together a 14s2p config. The pack would have weighed approx 4.5 lbs. The compairable FP 4500 Evo 30's weigh 3.125 lbs. This was too much weight to add on the Sundowner but as Ben says, an 85" plane would handle the weight better. Gee......................................might just have to try this on a certain 85" due in Oct :D


Danny

[R/C Dallas]

edfrules

I have a 31% Extra 300L that I'm powering with a Hyperion Z5045-18B, Jeti spin 90, on 14S2P A123s. I think 3600-3800watts and 6-8 min aerobatic flights are going to be possible at a weight penalty of 16-18oz over comparable LiPos. I plan on building my 3 dewalt battery packs into four 7-cell packs that can also be used in my Yak 54 40e as well as other large planes. All items for the power package have been received and I was hoping to do some bench testing but two family emergencies in the last 6 weeks have put everything on hold. I will post info as soon as I get a chance to build and test the batteries.

[3Deranged]

Great, I won't be the only one delving into the unknown! I'll be looking out for your results too. Got to get some Dewalt packs on order now! Never built my own packs but from what I've read you've got to make sure the M1 cells are balanced at least thru the first few cycles. After that they seem to not need constant balancing from the reports. I was wondering how you're supposed to balance the cells in one of those MEC battery tubes with the conductive paste to connect each cell. From what I've gathered thru the forums, the first cycle is the most critical for balancing. Otherwise you end up with underperforming packs(?). :confused: Thanks for posting, I'll be doing the same after I get all my stuff together. Just trying to get a feel for what I'm up against(learning curve wise). Keep em' flyin'!edfrules

I have a 31% Extra 300L that I'm powering with a Hyperion Z5045-18B, Jeti spin 90, on 14S2P A123s. I think 3600-3800watts and 6-8 min aerobatic flights are going to be possible at a weight penalty of 16-18oz over comparable LiPos. I plan on building my 3 dewalt battery packs into four 7-cell packs that can also be used in my Yak 54 40e as well as other large planes. All items for the power package have been received and I was hoping to do some bench testing but two family emergencies in the last 6 weeks have put everything on hold. I will post info as soon as I get a chance to build and test the batteries.

[3Deranged]

Yup, just did an 8s brick of a plane and it ruined the 3D stuff. Too high a wing loading. Good for pattern and some hovering but high alpha stuff was ugly to say the least at that wingloading. That's why I figured a larger 85" + plane would probably have enough wing area to compensate for the added weight. After having the bad taste in my mouth of poor 3D/too porky, I don't look forward to that happening again. But if the weight thing isn't an issue then M1's might be a great system. Can always fall back on the old lipos ;) So, enjoy being on the cutting egde! I wuldn't be worried about whether it will work, we know it will "work". We just need to find out how well.

[Madmax1965]

edfrules :
I was wondering how you're supposed to balance the cells in one of those MEC battery tubes with the conductive paste to connect each cell.

Edfrules you can use any of the balancing wiring on the market....I use metal airconditioner tape and tape the balancing wires to the outside of the A-123 cells......no soldering. To check the balancing on each battery simply cut a small hole in the tape at each wire point and check each battery.

[3Deranged]

Yeah, I saw the primer on converting Dewalt packs to modeling use. I own my A/C business so I've got plenty of tape! Sounds a little scary taping wiring on. I might have to stick with the old soldering/shrink wrap method for piece of mind. Don't want a couple o' grand in the air to have any power problems during some heated 3D sessions. I've got to put together 4 x 7s packs, that's a little work but well worth it in the end I hope. I see you like EDF's -was thinking these would be the perfect short duration packs for jets. Looks like you've been using them? How are they working out in your EDFs'? The more I think about all the cycles you can run thru these batteries the more I get excited about trying them out. Might not like the duration, but the charge times more that compensate.

edfrules :
I was wondering how you're supposed to balance the cells in one of those MEC battery tubes with the conductive paste to connect each cell.

Edfrules you can use any of the balancing wiring on the market....I use metal airconditioner tape and tape the balancing wires to the outside of the A-123 cells......no soldering. To check the balancing on each battery simply cut a small hole in the tape at each wire point and check each battery.

[gwh]

edf,

I've been flying A123 4S packs in a Multiplex Twister with great results. I have also used 3S 2070 and 4200 Lipo packs.The A123 is slightly heavier but I get more power and the batteries are not nearly as hot. Flights are about 4.5 minutes at full throttle for the entire flight.

[Franz2002_01]

I used to fly 8S2P and 10S2P Lipos (3300mahs). Then I converted to 10S2P and 12S2P A123s. Much less risk and no damage when crashing. I fly typically 1.60 - 27% type planes... I also fly a 15S1P Raptor - but that is another story. If I was building a new plane - which I won't for a while than I would probably go for a 33% 15S2P A123 power setup. Not much to it - aside from only $300 for the whole battery setup...

[3Deranged]

Thanks for the posts guys! Sounds encouraging on the 3D front and the EDF usage. What ESC's are you using on the 15s2p setups? I'm thinking the Jeti Spin 99? Was wondering how it handled 14s M1's. I used to fly 8S2P and 10S2P Lipos (3300mahs). Then I converted to 10S2P and 12S2P A123s. Much less risk and no damage when crashing. I fly typically 1.60 - 27% type planes... I also fly a 15S1P Raptor - but that is another story. If I was building a new plane - which I won't for a while than I would probably go for a 33% 15S2P A123 power setup. Not much to it - aside from only $300 for the whole battery setup...

[Madmax1965]

If you use the MEC system there is no need for soldering cept maybe for the battery connectors .....the only taping I do is for the balance taps. Once you tape the wiring to the outside of each battery you then apply the last heat shrink to seal the taps into place. I have been using A-123s and the MEC system in E-powered planes from 49" inch wing span to 91" wingspan....from sport to scale...to pattern and never a problem.....plus I can recharge any of my packs in ten minutes. A123s can be a problem as to soldering as the battery case is alumimum. You might want to read up on the A123s and consider they are as apples to oranges to lipos.

[3Deranged]

I understand about the differences between the two chemistries, that's what interests me. Soldering is no big deal, requires proper surface prep/solder and correct temperatures. I've been gleaning what I can off the posts and calling reps for answers. Electicity is my bag , it's just DC current, not that I'm lax around it either. I work on a lot higher voltages/amps than little battery packs can supply! I'm fully aware how to be safe around electricity. That's why I want to give them a go, because frankly lipos require a constant eye or you'll be sorry. I like the fact that you can run M1's down to nothing with no ill effects. Don't let your lipo do that. The charge time alone is what interests me. Not to mention the discharge rate! Wow a pack with a pop off valve. Novel approach to safety. And the amount of cycles appears unbeatable(for now) Sure would like to have packs that last a couple of years... thanks for the tips Madmax. :) If you use the MEC system there is no need for soldering cept maybe for the battery connectors .....the only taping I do is for the balance taps. Once you tape the wiring to the outside of each battery you then apply the last heat shrink to seal the taps into place. I have been using A-123s and the MEC system in E-powered planes from 49" inch wing span to 91" wingspan....from sport to scale...to pattern and never a problem.....plus I can recharge any of my packs in ten minutes. A123s can be a problem as to soldering as the battery case is alumimum. You might want to read up on the A123s and consider they are as apples to oranges to lipos.

[FlyingW]

I am having success with 18xM1 cells (64v off the charger!), an Astro 90 motor, belt drive, Astro 204D ESC, and 24x16 prop. Definitely not 3D, but perfect for its giant high wing cabin-type bush flyer application. I set up the battery as three blocks of six so I can use blinkys to balance. I charge two at a time as 12s with an Astro 112D with Dapter, and the other on an Astro 109/123.

[3Deranged]

Thanks for the replies, encouraging to hear there are some M1 planes flying successfully out there. Now we just have to see how well they do on a 3D plane. Just have to make sure the build is light as possible and there's enough HP to do the job properly.

[michaelrc]

Thanks for the replies, encouraging to hear there are some M1 planes flying successfully out there. Now we just have to see how well they do on a 3D plane. Just have to make sure the build is light as possible and there's enough HP to do the job properly.

Do not overlooking charging. It is critical.

I thought I had it all figured out going A123 until I looked into charging. It's a mess and limits your flight time unless you have A. AC at your flying field or B. Lots of money to burn on chargers and 12 volt deep cycle batteries and/or multiple 14S2P packs.

Don't be decieved by "15 minute" charge claims too. Unless you have the proper equipment or AC at the field, you'll be lucky to get 30 minute charges with a 14S2P pack (see B. above). Most of today's chargers can't handle the watts necessary for fast charges of big A123 packs.

I'm working on a 74" EF Yak (the bad ass black and yellow one) that I'm powering with A123/Hacker A60-18M. I'm trying to get away with 12S1P. I'll probably open a thread on this later..

[blucor basher]

Whoa...big motor for the 74. Mine flies with lots of power on the A60S.

[3Deranged]

I use an invertor in my truck as I don't fly at an AMA field to often. I use it to run tools for my business so it can sure handle charging of plane packs. I'll be getting a couple of Asto 109's(for M1's) and an Xtrema charger to handle the lipos/M1's in addition to my 3 other chargers. There will be a generator on the X-mas list too ;). I'll be getting a couple of A123 packs as well. I don't play around when it comes to electrics, I like to fly- not wait for charges to finish! Believe me I need the practice! :rolleyes:
That's why I'm trying to do my homework before I go on a spending spree. Don't mind spending the $$$ as long as it's on the right things. Do not overlooking charging. It is critical.

I thought I had it all figured out going A123 until I looked into charging. It's a mess and limits your flight time unless you have A. AC at your flying field or B. Lots of money to burn on chargers and 12 volt deep cycle batteries and/or multiple 14S2P packs.

Don't be decieved by "15 minute" charge claims too. Unless you have the proper equipment or AC at the field, you'll be lucky to get 30 minute charges with a 14S2P pack (see B. above). Most of today's chargers can't handle the watts necessary for fast charges of big A123 packs.

I'm working on a 74" EF Yak (the bad ass black and yellow one) that I'm powering with A123/Hacker A60-18M. I'm trying to get away with 12S1P. I'll probably open a thread on this later..

[N99JH]

I am having success with 18xM1 cells (64v off the charger!), an Astro 90 motor, belt drive, Astro 204D ESC, and 24x16 prop. Definitely not 3D, but perfect for its giant high wing cabin-type bush flyer application. I set up the battery as three blocks of six so I can use blinkys to balance. I charge two at a time as 12s with an Astro 112D with Dapter, and the other on an Astro 109/123.

What kind of RPM and at what Amps draw do you get on the 24 X 16 prop? I am very curious.

[N99JH]

I am having success with 18xM1 cells (64v off the charger!), an Astro 90 motor, belt drive, Astro 204D ESC, and 24x16 prop. Definitely not 3D, but perfect for its giant high wing cabin-type bush flyer application. I set up the battery as three blocks of six so I can use blinkys to balance. I charge two at a time as 12s with an Astro 112D with Dapter, and the other on an Astro 109/123.

What kind of RPM do you get with the 24 X 16 prop and what Amps the motor draws? What is your reduction ratio? I have an application that requires this kind of performance and am very curious.

Thanks

Joshua

[F1 Rocket]

Whoa...big motor for the 74. Mine flies with lots of power on the A60S.


I have the A60-18M in mine. LOTS of power (actually it has a silly amount of power :D ) on 12s and APC 20x8e but a bit on the heavy side @ just a bit over 12.5 lbs. Even at that weight though it flys so good I don't think I'll change it.


Danny

[michaelrc]

Whoa...big motor for the 74. Mine flies with lots of power on the A60S.

Do you have the A60-22S?

I was going back and forth between the two. I probably overkilled it for sure but I'm tired of underkilling things. That's what the throttle is for I guess...

[michaelrc]

I use an invertor in my truck as I don't fly at an AMA field to often.

What's the specs on your inverter? You run it right off the truck battery?

[3Deranged]

I can run it off the truck battery, but when under a full 75amp load it needs to have the engine running. Can't really give you the specs-it's bolted in a spot it's hard to get to read the label. It will do about 75 amps total from 2 110v plugs. It's got a breaker button on it should I overamp the system. It will handle the charging duties without even getting warm. Do I care if it burns up gas and wears the truck down, no-it's a company vehicle! If I'm just charging a few 5s packs I'll do it off the battery, yes that kills the battery quicker, but do I care, no-right again it's a company vehicle! ;) All kidding aside a generator is the way to go. I've seen some nice larger electrics and they're usually accompanied by a small 1kw generator. Why lug a couple of truck batteries around that won't last more than a couple of charges and go flat when you can just plop the generator on the ground and plug your power invertor in and start charging. I've got a couple of truck batteries I use too but they're starting to show some wear so it'll be time to retire them soon. Yes that may seem a bit overboard but I think that's the way to go for the larger electrics. You can get power invertors at your local auto parts place or any number of tool supply warehouses have them. Construction guys use them all the time when space is limited on their trucks for a generator, so they just wire in an invertor and start working. They even wire 2-4-plug outlets into work boxes and sides of the trucks. Hey if you've got an RV most of them already have a built in generator, nice place to get out of the elements, have a cold beverage and charge your packs! What's the specs on your inverter? You run it right off the truck battery?

[Fool]

If you use the MEC system there is no need for soldering cept maybe for the battery connectors .....the only taping I do is for the balance taps. Once you tape the wiring to the outside of each battery you then apply the last heat shrink to seal the taps into place. I have been using A-123s and the MEC system in E-powered planes from 49" inch wing span to 91" wingspan....from sport to scale...to pattern and never a problem.....plus I can recharge any of my packs in ten minutes. A123s can be a problem as to soldering as the battery case is alumimum. You might want to read up on the A123s and consider they are as apples to oranges to lipos.

Max
Do you have some pictures of the MEC tubes with the taps, would love to see some more info on this.

Jim

[FlyingW]

Joshua,

I'm using an H-1500 belt drive at 3.08:1 ratio. Pulling about 23 amps to get 3,400 rpms. Had a flight last week longer than 13 minutes!

Paul

[Madmax1965]

Fool I don't have any pics of the taps as all my battery packs are build up already I use Hyperion balancing taps and you simply match the cell to the tap wire . You install the wiring on the outside of the cells typically in order from one cell to the next. The MEC system uses three shrink wraps and I cut small holes in the first two wraps once they are installed ...trim the ends of the balance wire so as to uncover about 1/4" of bare wire. I then use a piece of metal airconditioner tape to hold the naked wire to the outside of the A-123 cell. Once all wires are taped on I then install the last shrink wrap over the taped wires to hold them in place. If you want to check the voltage in each cell you can use the sharp probe on your multimeter to make a small hole in the shrinkwrap so as to make contact with the A123s outside case.

You may want to read these two threads concerning A123s.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4667844/anchors_4667844/mpage_1/key_electric%252Caircraft%252Cmotor/anchor/tm.htm#4667844


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525664&page=3

[N99JH]

Joshua,

I'm using an H-1500 belt drive at 3.08:1 ratio. Pulling about 23 amps to get 3,400 rpms. Had a flight last week longer than 13 minutes!

Paul

Paul

Thanks for the info, it is very helpfull. I am not familiar with the H-1500 belt drive - who makes it?
How many cells are you running the motor/belt reduction combo? 18?

Joshua

[Tor-DK]

Not mine, but a buddy of mines:

:eek: :cool:

[3Deranged]

:eek: :eek: :D :D :censored: that's a few cells. This pack for his Slow Stick? :)

[ClausT]

Yeps, this is the battery for my 33% Ultimate (16S3P)
Lots of power for ~27 pound plane.

@Tor
You forgot the introduction to my battery :D

[FlyingW]

Joshua,

I'm running 18 cells. Three packs of six each so I can use blinkys to balance. The H-1500 is no longer available; hopefully you will be able to find one.

I thought of making a belt drive from scratch using timing pulleys, bearings, and belts available from Sterling Instrument - the same outfit from which ModelairTech sourced many of their components. I would make a change from a 3/8" prop shaft to an 8mm one - there just isn't a 3/8" prop adapter available anywhere.

Paul

[N99JH]

Joshua,

I'm running 18 cells. Three packs of six each so I can use blinkys to balance. The H-1500 is no longer available; hopefully you will be able to find one.

I thought of making a belt drive from scratch using timing pulleys, bearings, and belts available from Sterling Instrument - the same outfit from which ModelairTech sourced many of their components. I would make a change from a 3/8" prop shaft to an 8mm one - there just isn't a 3/8" prop adapter available anywhere.

Paul

Thanks for all the good info Paul. Do you think the H-1500 could me made into 5:1 belt reduction unit?

[FlyingW]

Joshua,

It is possible but not likely. Based on my experience with the H-1500, you'd need to find a combination of motor and prop pulleys that maintain enough teeth in contact on the belt and pulleys to prevent slippage. I had problems with a 12 groove motor pulley slipping on the belt trying turn a 40 groove prop pulley. The 13 groove pulley worked fine but gave a 3.08:1 ratio.

[N99JH]

Joshua,

It is possible but not likely. Based on my experience with the H-1500, you'd need to find a combination of motor and prop pulleys that maintain enough teeth in contact on the belt and pulleys to prevent slippage. I had problems with a 12 groove motor pulley slipping on the belt trying turn a 40 groove prop pulley. The 13 groove pulley worked fine but gave a 3.08:1 ratio.

Thanks.

Last question if I may: What is the Center Distance between the motor and drive shaft?

[Smash McCrash]

I'm working on a 74" EF Yak (the bad ass black and yellow one) that I'm powering with A123/Hacker A60-18M. I'm trying to get away with 12S1P. I'll probably open a thread on this later..

I just picked up the same plane. I am interested in seeing your thread. I have 4 5S A123 packs now, so a 12S isn't in the works for me, yet. I was thinking of using the power system in my Funtana S90 for the Yak and changing the motor in the Fun. Its an AXi 5330-18 on 10S TP 6000's.

Looking forward to your thread...

Mike

[mexico]

What has been the strategy when equating A123 setups to lipo setups? less cells and higher amp draw or more cells and higher voltage?

[MustangAce17]

hey guys, I'm looking into the Hangar 9 Frenzy for a possible conversion with my Hacker b50-11xl and Jeti 48 opto on a123's comparable to a 8s lipo(2 Hyp. 16c 4200 4s in series). what size pack would i need to withstand 50 amps and 1500 watts? Thanks- Kyle

[Tipover]

Voltage of 10s1p A123 @ 50 amps will be very comparable to 8s lipo.
Of course this all depends on the C rating of the comparable 8s lipo pack you reference. I use 10s1p packs in my Funtana 90 and pull 1600 watts, 60A wot. 160 watts cont seems to be what these cells are comfortable with. Pull much more than 60 amps current @ 1p and the voltage sages and keeps the total power limited to around 160 watts per cell.

Kevin

[FlyingW]

Joshua,

H-1500 has 2-1/4" distance between motor and prop shaft.

Paul

[mexico]

Voltage of 10s1p A123 @ 50 amps will be very comparable to 8s lipo.
Of course this all depends on the C rating of the comparable 8s lipo pack you reference. I use 10s1p packs in my Funtana 90 and pull 1600 watts, 60A wot. 160 watts cont seems to be what these cells are comfortable with. Pull much more than 60 amps current @ 1p and the voltage sages and keeps the total power limited to around 160 watts per cell.

Kevin

would you go 14s A123 in place of 12s lipo?

[blucor basher]

Yep.

[mexico]

Mr. P guess what model I am thinking of with this Q in mind... :rolleyes:

[blucor basher]

14S 2P would be sweet in that plane.

[mexico]

2p would be enough for reasonable flight times?

[blucor basher]

Sure. I'd expect 8-11 min depending on thottle usage.

[michaelrc]

14S 2P would be sweet in that plane.

OK, I give up.. Which one are you talking about?

[blucor basher]

Something we're working on at 3DH.

[F1 Rocket]

Something we're working on at 3DH.


85" ish? :D

[mexico]

Sure. I'd expect 8-11 min depending on thottle usage.

Can 4600 mah really fly 15 lbs for 11 minutes?
Excellent. Anything over 6 1/2 minutes is plenty, especially if you can be recharged in a half hour or less.

[blucor basher]

At low throttle usage, yes.

I fly one of the prorotypes on 12S 4350 20C. I get 8-10 minutes, although I can reduce that to 6 if I try really hard. :D

F1- Yep.

[hokonghing]

I am flying my H9 Funtans 50X with Hyperion 4020 with 6S A123 cells, cannot consider this as giant scale, but is a 6lbs plane, flying time is 6 minutes, I use a seperate car battery for charging, 20 minutes is all it need to get back to air, so you can get away with just one pack.
I have a scratch build 3 lbs/48" WS GeeBee fly with 4S A123, I feel comfortable to charge the battery without taking it out.
I love these cells.

[mexico]

Are those homemade packs or did you buy them pre-made? How well do they stay balanced?

[RTaylor]

Its to bad those belt drives arent made anymore. I love them.
Randy

[3Deranged]

Thanks for the posts guys! 3 Dewalt packs on the way. Chargers ordered too. I'm eager to try out these new cells. I also will be working on an EDF for these packs too. Perfect high discharge cell for those power hungry EDF's. Same as the 3D bird theory, get a model with enough wing area to be able to handle a certain % higher weight. But a giant scale 3D bird will be my first priority. I'll try to post all the numbers and facts I find out and do some video of course! :D Will be using a Jeti Spin 99 so the flight stats can be posted in a graph form. Also getting a Xtrema charger with the same static stats that can be uploaded to a PC. Nice to be able to document my findings for future reference. :cool:

[Erik v. Schaik]

Sorry I have found this thread just too late for you :o

I am subscribing to this thread because I have ordered a costum made 13s2p A123 pack at:
http://first-products.de/
the packs can be welded as your likings with balancer cables included.

I am using a Shulze 636+ charger updated to LiFe and their 14s balancer which has LiFe/LiPo/Lion and NiCd (=hidden feature). with a Mason 25A powersupply my packs are full within 18 minutes.

I intend to build a twin 90mm edf jet (still in search for a good model). The motor I am using on the testbench draws 33A and at the start 1340Watts and after 30 seconds a solid 1240Watts of power which is the limit for the motor and fan.
My Mpx Twinjet flys with the 4s1p @33A too and 5-7 minutes flighttime are normal and this is nice for a large jet too ;) . Motor efficiency is 94%
The twin 90mm edf will have 2.5kW :D . Using 2 Spin77 opto ESC.

The company where I ordered my packs are currently testing an 20A charger (230V) and my 13s2p pak supposed to be charged at about 15 minutes.

The pack I have ordered wil be welded like this rough sketch I send him yesterday. All cells parrallel will be bridged. Schulze balancing cable will be used. The cooling slot is intended for forced cooling with an edf fan to achieve the 15 minutes charge time and prevent not to overheat the cells in the 2nd flight.

This thread is very interesting because I am able to use this pack in an other plane in future :rolleyes: , though I highly doubt the safety of using a high power setup in a proppellor plane. An Edf plane seems to be safer IMHO but this is a personal issue in my brain :p . As for safety and minimal interference problems I do intend to use 2.4GHz on this plane which seems to be the ticket for high power e-planes (2+ kW)

grtz, Erik

[mexico]

though I highly doubt the safety of using a high power setup in a proppellor plane.
grtz, Erik


Why is that?

[Erik v. Schaik]

I am a bit worried about a possible radio interference. What if the motor starts spinning in an unexpected moment in the pitts? I might be more confident with a 2.4GHz transmitter I guess :o . But for now I am very statisfied with the schulze Rx.
For this moment I'll stick to edf but a next model might be a prop plane ;) .

grtz, Erik

[mexico]

I am a bit worried about a possible radio interference. What if the motor starts spinning in an unexpected moment in the pitts? next model might be a prop plane ;) .

grtz, Erik

Don't plug in the mains in the pits then. Or use a cutoff switch.

[3Deranged]

I have the same fears of a large carbon prop suddenly going to full power. A shunt will help cure that. You can hook your packs up and still check controls without the motor/ESC being armed. When it's time to taxi then put the shunt in and off you go. I feel a lot safer with one installed than without. I've got a nice prop scar to prove that!(Bench testing no less on 72mhz=Glitch=Owww! :censored: ) 2.4ghz is also another safety factor. I know I have a solid link once control is established. I never felt that way about 72mhz systems. Always wondering when the next hit would happen. With 2.4ghz that's the last thing on my mind now. :) My 2 cents.I am a bit worried about a possible radio interference. What if the motor starts spinning in an unexpected moment in the pitts? I might be more confident with a 2.4GHz transmitter I guess :o . But for now I am very statisfied with the schulze Rx.
For this moment I'll stick to edf but a next model might be a prop plane ;) .

grtz, Erik

[Erik v. Schaik]

I've got a nice prop scar to prove that!(Bench testing no less on 72mhz=Glitch=Owww! :censored: )

Now that's cool! I've a 15cm scar and 18 stitches in my right underarm due to a motorcycle accident 10 years ago :p It reminds me to be more carefull. I was restless and stupid a decade ago :rolleyes: . Show me yours and I'l post you mine :cool:

The shunt is a god advice!

Btw I have an other queston which might be suitable to post here because you are all in the same situation:

Can anybody do some maths for me for a resistor I have to use to eliminate the "friendly sparks". This article is too deep for me and it is all babblefish-wrestling :o

I have a Jeti Spin77 opto and 13s2p A123 pack.
Thank you in advance, Erik


http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/3/3/7/a1217314-213-Highspark.jpg
http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/3/3/7/a1217315-104-Highspark1.jpg
http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/3/3/7/a1217316-200-Highspark2.jpg
http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/3/3/7/a1217317-170-Highspark3.jpg

[hokonghing]

Erik, if I done my maths right, a 20 ohm resistor for 13SA123 (46.8v)should get the same result bypass current of 2.34 amp, the writer has 2.49amp by pass cuurent for his 6S lipo set up using 10 ohm resistor. The thing I don't understand is he talks about a 2000 microfarad capacitor in series with the resistor in the write up, but in the photo of anti-spark connector, I only see a resistor, no capacitor, I need to read the whole article again more carefully, a very intertesting subject!!
BTW, my lawyer tells me to add this:
Fore warn you, you are doing this at your own risk!!
best regards,
Kong Ho

[hokonghing]

Read the article again, there is no capacitor in the anti-spark connector, the resistor is to charge the capacitor in the ESC to a voltage within 1 volt of the power battery first before your connect the main power connector. So I think it is a very simple device, and I think it is very difficult to do something very wrong, I think I will try this first on my 4S 123 set up.
good found, Erik.

[Erik v. Schaik]

Read the article again, there is no capacitor in the anti-spark connector, the resistor is to charge the capacitor in the ESC to a voltage within 1 volt of the power battery first before your connect the main power connector. good found, Erik.

I hope this article is usefull for all of us :)
I did understand the capacitor of the ESC needs to be charged slowly but the maths for the proper resistor is something I have not learned at school :p I am a 5D-metal cutter and electronics is an other ball game :o
the 20 Ohm resistor should be good or do you have to know what is written on the capacitor?

thanks in advance, Erik

[hokonghing]

before you experiment with your $300 jeti spin 77 ESC, if I were you I will try on some cheaper one first if you have handy. yes, If you know the microfarad of the capacitor on the jeti ESC, I can plug it in the formula, I am using 2000 microfarad to get the 20 ohm resistor, like the article used.
5-D metal cutter must be better than 2-D

[Erik v. Schaik]

I do no have an other 50V ESC, but I'll have some other old NiCd Esc which I can test for this.

Spin77 capacitor: T0629/105Celcius/50V/330uF

5D can be :censored: I can sleep better with 2D ;)

[3Deranged]

It's kind of 2 scars together. When I was younger and stupider(maybe not) I took an X-acto blade thru my thumb joint too and the prop scar went right over it. No wonder my 3D flying needs more work!

[QUOTE=Erik v. Schaik]Now that's cool! I've a 15cm scar and 18 stitches in my right underarm due to a motorcycle accident 10 years ago :p It reminds me to be more carefull. I was restless and stupid a decade ago :rolleyes: . Show me yours and I'l post you mine :cool:

[hokonghing]

I do no have an other 50V ESC, but I'll have some other old NiCd Esc which I can test for this.

Spin77 capacitor: T0629/105Celcius/50V/330uF

5D can be :censored: I can sleep better with 2D ;)

I plug in the 300 microfarad into the equation, still get about 2.34 amp of charging current into the ESC's capacitor, so I think 20 ohms is good.
higher resistor lower amp, longer time to charge the capacitor to reach the power pack voltage.

in my case, if I want to try it on my 4S 123 set up (4x3.6=14.4v), use a 10 ohms resistor will allow a 1.44 amp of current from the anti-spark connector to charge up the ESC capacitor (assuming 2000 microfarad, I think the 1.44 amps looks good, you can test the RX and servos with this amp draw, but don't fire it up without connecting the main power connector, or it will crack the 10 ohm resistor or something else.

[Fool]

Is this gona mess up the ESC cell count detection circuitry?

Jim

[twest]

If you are using A 123's then you don't care as much as cell count detection- usually you set the cutoff to a fixed voltage, or disable the cutoff altogether (if you don't mind dead stick landings). A123s are like nicads, they don't care about being run flat.

[hokonghing]

the circuit is to bleed off a restricted current to energize the ESC (and the capacitor), so that the voltage of the capacitor is near to the voltage of the power pack to avoid spark, once the power pack is connected as usal, the ESC is seeing the power pack as before.
Again, I have not try this, you are on your own when you experiment your ESC, but do let us know if you try it.

[mexico]

If you are using A 123's then you don't care as much as cell count detection- usually you set the cutoff to a fixed voltage, or disable the cutoff altogether (if you don't mind dead stick landings). A123s are like nicads, they don't care about being run flat.

I have lost more planes to LVC than deadstick ten times over.

[Smash McCrash]

This circuit shouldn't mess up the cell count detect. The voltage will come up very quickly when connected. Faster than the ESC startup and shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure that you get the right cell count confirmation (Castle has beeps for cell count.) For A123, I have the LVC set so there is no auto detect. I also don't use the bypass, and just check the connectors and change them if necessary. Haven't had to yet, but I don't fly my high cell count planes that often.

Mike

[Erik v. Schaik]

Thank you Kong Ho for the maths :)

If you are using A 123's then you don't care as much as cell count detection- usually you set the cutoff to a fixed voltage, or disable the cutoff altogether (if you don't mind dead stick landings). A123s are like nicads, they don't care about being run flat.

I assume you mean :if you don't mind dead sticks landings :p
I do care when the cells are run down flat. Zero Voltage without a Rx batterie sounds pretty stupid to me (make sure you have some vdo of this occasion :p )

Hey edf Rules,
Now that's a handicap! :cool: You ain't gonna get pretty girls with that one LOL! I can hide mine under my sleeve :p I'll post it for ya as soon as my girl brings the camera back home, unless an x-ray will do :D (btw, she was not too fond of my pink tattoo :D )

grtz!

[Madmax1965]

Twest:
or disable the cutoff altogether (if you don't mind dead stick landings).




Clue me in.
I am using a Jedi 77 Optp esc.........and also have a Phoenic-125 by Castle. I can't figure how to disable the setup so I can use all the volts in the A-123s(or at least most of the volts). As it is now my A-123s stand @ 28.8 volts when fully charged but the Jedi cuts the motor @ 18 volts.

[mexico]

I don't think you will want to be in the air at 18 volts. You don't want to use all the volts. You want to use as much of the current (mah) as you can while still at a usable voltage.

[Erik v. Schaik]

Twest:
or disable the cutoff altogether (if you don't mind dead stick landings).




Clue me in.
I am using a Jedi 77 Optp esc.........and also have a Phoenic-125 by Castle. I can't figure how to disable the setup so I can use all the volts in the A-123s(or at least most of the volts). As it is now my A-123s stand @ 28.8 volts when fully charged but the Jedi cuts the motor @ 18 volts.

With an Jeti progbox you can program the cell cutt-off at 2.0V/cell in the Lipo/Lion/LiFe mode. You can fix the number of cells too instead of auto cell count. The progbox shows the cutt-off voltage of the pack. With my 6s A123 pack+spin55 the (hard!) cut-off happens at 2200mAh which leaves 100MaH for the Rx (spin55=ESC with BEC) to land safely. the 2.0V/cell is way too low for flight and it is no use to continue flight. for your setup 8cellsx2V=16V cutt-off right? 28.8/3.6=8.
If you want to run the pack completely down you can always program the lowest cell count and lowest voltage cutt-off available. Soft cut-off might be an option too. I think you might be in for 2-3 seconds more motorruntime at low rpm.

[Erik v. Schaik]

I forgot to mention that the voltage recovers a bit when the ESC shuts down at 16V LVC. Same thing as Lipolly. When you read the measured cutt-off Voltage out of the progbox you are most likely to read 15.98V.
I think your Spin is programmed properly.

Kind regards, Erik

[Madmax1965]

Thanks Guys.
By the way I use seperate battery packs for the onbaord rx......so I'm not worried about low voltage.

[3Deranged]

Thanks for the A123 LVC data with the Jeti's. :) Was wondering how to set it up for A123's. Also would rather put a Rx power pack in anyway on the larger planes just for safety. Still a great way to do it if you don't want the extra weight of the Rx pack.

With an Jeti progbox you can program the cell cutt-off at 2.0V/cell in the Lipo/Lion/LiFe mode. You can fix the number of cells too instead of auto cell count. The progbox shows the cutt-off voltage of the pack. With my 6s A123 pack+spin55 the (hard!) cut-off happens at 2200mAh which leaves 100MaH for the Rx (spin55=ESC with BEC) to land safely. the 2.0V/cell is way too low for flight and it is no use to continue flight. for your setup 8cellsx2V=16V cutt-off right? 28.8/3.6=8.
If you want to run the pack completely down you can always program the lowest cell count and lowest voltage cutt-off available. Soft cut-off might be an option too. I think you might be in for 2-3 seconds more motorruntime at low rpm.

[Erik v. Schaik]

The Spin controllers are very simpe to program an with the progbox you can check your servo condition and Rx channel output too. A must have goody :D
The manual can be downed at the Jeti site.

Will these cells be good for Rx pack:
http://first-products.de/Manganengl.htm

If the main power pack is charged within 20 minutes, the Rx pack must be charged pretty quick too :rolleyes:
I have an UBEC already.
If not, what cells do you use for your Rx? NiCd/NiMh and Lipo sounds outdated to me.

grtz, Erik

[3Deranged]

I fly lipos now so I don't use a Rx pack to save weight, just the Medusa 6v UBEC's. With the lipos you'll get a LVC cutoff way before you lose total power, so deadsticks are no problem. But it looks like the JETI programmer can be set to cutoff with some useful voltage still left for Rx/servos. I like the idea of A123's, just have to watch the timer and mind the fact that when they lose voltage it's all over. I've heard there's another company entering the M1 type cell market and they've got a possible top performing battery too. Should be interesting in the coming years..... :D :cool:

The Spin controllers are very simpe to program an with the progbox you can check your servo condition and Rx channel output too. A must have goody :D
The manual can be downed at the Jeti site.

Will these cells be good for Rx pack:
http://first-products.de/Manganengl.htm

If the main power pack is charged within 20 minutes, the Rx pack must be charged pretty quick too :rolleyes:
I have an UBEC already.
If not, what cells do you use for your Rx? NiCd/NiMh and Lipo sounds outdated to me.

grtz, Erik

[ClausT]

In my 1/3 scale planes i use a Rx pack, and A123 cells being the obvious choice.
2S A123 gives you an rx pack that can be charged in 10-15 minutes, plenty of capacity, capable of delivering 40Amps plus, and no regulator needed.

[Erik v. Schaik]

That makes sense!
But only I already have a high wingload :o

planning to build this one for twim 90mm edf wingspan about 1,8-2meter:

[3Deranged]

Like the silver Soviet marked bird! Check out the WM400 fan units if you haven't already. Front mounted motor instead of rear mount and it looks like it will produce about 3.5lbs of thrust on 6s. :cool: That makes sense!
:cool:
Oops saw you were going to use 90mm units, WM400 is 70mm. Hope he makes some 90mm soon. :cool:
But only I already have a high wingload :o

planning to build this one for twim 90mm edf wingspan about 1,8-2meter:

[Erik v. Schaik]

the wm400 is a 70mm edf. They still have to prove the motor does not fry with this config. I am planning 2x midifan = 2500Watts.

grtz, Erik

[chrispare]

hi guys I have a yak 54 sd models 84 inch I think ,I have a axi 5330 24, and a castle creations 110hv speed conlroller.
first what do ya think and second battery recomdations i have 12 s lipo and i would like to go 123s as well??

[Kou]

chrispare:

You are going to need 14S A123. If the current is over 40 amp, I will recommand 2P configuration.

MK

[chrispare]

if i go with 14 123s can the 110hv handel that many cells?

[gwh]

12*4.2=14*3.6=50.4
A 12 cell Lipo and 14 cell A123 happen to have the same voltage at a full charge.

[mexico]

It's not really about the number of cells but the voltage. 14 A123 cells are close to the voltage of 12 lipo cells. 12 lipo = 44.4, 14 A123=46.2

loaded voltage of lipo is 3.7
laoded voltage of A123 is 3.3volts

[Kou]

Loaded voltage for A123 at 15C is approx 2.6-2.8 V so if you are used to 12S lipo, you may feel a slight reduction in power for the same prop. The ESC is OK at 14S A123.

MK

[chrispare]

so if i used that motor battery combo would there be enough umph fo 3d flight

[Kou]

Go to a larger diameter prop will probably works but don't forget that the A123 is substantially heavier than Lipo. You probably need to use Motorcalc to do a best guess and then try it. I am 90% sure that the weight of A123 is going to impair the 3D performance.

MK

[mexico]

I would respectfully disagree. As long as you have an A123 setup that can produce similar power output a plane that size ~15 lbs should not mind a little extra weight.

What gauge wire are you all using for the main to the esc? 12 gauge?

[3Deranged]

Are you kidding? Chicks dig scars! ;) I better not be scamming on pretty girls, my wife would have something to say about that!LOL And that is a handicap too. The old country doctor who sewed me up the first time said I'd never use that thumb again. He had to sew the tendons back together as best he could and I couldn't move it for 6 months. Finally rehabed it back to where I could move it but it still hurts when I fly 3D. I literally have to warm up my left thumb before flying and stretch it out. But at least I can still use it. Probably means I can fly slighty better than a monkey :rolleyes: Thank you Kong Ho for the maths :)



I assume you mean :if you don't mind dead sticks landings :p
I do care when the cells are run down flat. Zero Voltage without a Rx batterie sounds pretty stupid to me (make sure you have some vdo of this occasion :p )

Hey edf Rules,
Now that's a handicap! :cool: You ain't gonna get pretty girls with that one LOL! I can hide mine under my sleeve :p I'll post it for ya as soon as my girl brings the camera back home, unless an x-ray will do :D (btw, she was not too fond of my pink tattoo :D )

grtz!

[kushal_22]

I was thinking on using these as well They seem to be a little more....Robust?

Regards
Mal

[3Deranged]

That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it! Am waiting for that special light airframe to come out so I can load it up with A123's! If I go with another airframe of about the same size but about a 1lb+ heavier there goes my 3D performance. So I've got a couple of more months to wait and by then I'll have my power system worked out and ready for install. I already went thru a couple of heavier planes this year and didn't like their lack of 3D ability so out with the old in with the light. :) Looks like hercdriver7777 has been testing the A123's in a Hyperion Yak 85" @ 17.5lbs with good performance. I would like to get my build to 16lbs max, hopefully lighter. I would respectfully disagree. As long as you have an A123 setup that can produce similar power output a plane that size ~15 lbs should not mind a little extra weight.

What gauge wire are you all using for the main to the esc? 12 gauge?