Why Do You Prefer Nitro Over Electric?

[Steve Kane]

I am thinking about stepping up from a micro. The first question in selecting an new heli is nitro or electric. What are the important issues to consider? :confused:

[Motions]

Here are the reasons I prefer electric over nitro.

Much cleaner
Less maintenance
Less vibration
Much less field equipment
Quieter
Ability to fly in more places
Lighter, more power to weight
Oh yeah, doesn't kill the ozone. ;)

Only drawback is flight time.

[archiebald]

And in the Blue Corner - Reasons for going with nitro....

- For a 50 sized heli, the costs / performance are still not acceptable IMO for electrics. Anything over 50 size is a non-starter in electric.
- Flight duration is typically better in nitro - in some cases by a huge margin.
- Flight frequency - To equal refulling times in a nitro, you would have to invest in at least 4 or 5 Lipo packs and enough chargers to keep charging them. You will get frustrated very quickly if you only have 2 packs and one charger.
- Safer - with electrics the rotors can feasibly start up accidentally at any time the battery is connected. Once a nitro engine has stopped, there is no doubt on safety.
- It's an internal combustion engine
Bigger - MUCH easier to fly.


Counterclaims to the post above
- Field Equipment - I have a can of fuel/pump, a starter and a glow booster versus potentially multiple chargers and a 12 volt car battery to run them off (seems fairly equal)
- Flying Locations - I wouldn't fly any helicopter away from our club anyhow.
- Less Maintenance - How?

Having said all that, I am planning to add a Mini-Titan to my nitro fleet later in the year - just for a bit of variety.

Motions,
1) Burning methanol / nitromethane does nothing to the ozone layer - do you have a link for that?
2) Where does the electricity come from that you charge your packs with? Coal fired power station perhaps?

Steve Kane,
Ultimately, it depends on how big you want to go. Right now the borderline for cost / convenience / performance is probably around the 30 class. Smaller means electric is your best choice and larger I would go for nitro.

[nitroshark]

archie has covered it all

[willhaney]

Together, they cover it quite well, IMHO.

Will

http://www.willhaney.com/rcgroups/fwiw/(S(4xcpbnf2mluzi5vcwht4jk55))/Default.aspx

[Steve Kane]

Great information. I appreciate it. I have not invested yet, but plan to soon. This is a big help.

Steve

[TachyonDriver]

Another thing to consider - you cannot short out a glow engine :D One simple little mistake and bye bye one £120 battery. There's possibly more chance of a crash killing the battery too - yes, I know electrics crash and the batteries are fine, however it takes more of a crash to write off the nitro engine IMHO. If you do need a new engine they tend to be cheaper than a battery too. Even the ground station is cheaper to set up than a proper charger to look after the li-pos.

Tach.

[Ah Clem]

I like both, and tend to like what I am flying, at the moment.

At this point in time, I am switching back and forth between a Raptro 50 V2 and a TREX 600E.

Both fly very well (and well beyond my abilities).

I like the smoke, smell, and slime of the nitro ship (especially the smoke trail when flying). The power is constant with the Nitro, from takeoff to landing. I can see how much fuel I have left so that I can know (assuming I am paying attention) when it is time to land. The CG shifts a bit, but is so gradual that you don't notice it. The machine is very agile (with G-Force mixing arms) and flies like my TREX 450 on steroids.

Regarding the electric: I don't have to clean off all of that smoke and slime that I like so much after flying (although I do still have to clean off the bugs, etc. from the blades). I do not have to bring fuel, starter, etc. (which has been mentioned by others). The Electric flies more gracefully and much more smoothly (this is more due to difference in head design than power plant). Even when the voltage has dropped after the first minute or two of the six minute flight, there is still more power available than the Raptor 50 (w/OS .50 Hyper).

It takes about three hours to re-charge the three batteries for the TREX when I return and I can only fly it three times without charging. It takes six hours to fully charge the Raptor but, although I have never pushed it, I should get six to eight flights out of it with the Duralites on board.

As I cannot make up my mind, I have been taking both to the field recently.

[flustercluck]

I like both, and tend to like what I am flying, at the moment.

At this point in time, I am switching back and forth between a Raptro 50 V2 and a TREX 600E.

Both fly very well (and well beyond my abilities).

I like the smoke, smell, and slime of the nitro ship (especially the smoke trail when flying). The power is constant with the Nitro, from takeoff to landing. I can see how much fuel I have left so that I can know (assuming I am paying attention) when it is time to land. The CG shifts a bit, but is so gradual that you don't notice it. The machine is very agile (with G-Force mixing arms) and flies like my TREX 450 on steroids.

Regarding the electric: I don't have to clean off all of that smoke and slime that I like so much after flying (although I do still have to clean off the bugs, etc. from the blades). I do not have to bring fuel, starter, etc. (which has been mentioned by others). The Electric flies more gracefully and much more smoothly (this is more due to difference in head design than power plant). Even when the voltage has dropped after the first minute or two of the six minute flight, there is still more power available than the Raptor 50 (w/OS .50 Hyper).

It takes about three hours to re-charge the three batteries for the TREX when I return and I can only fly it three times without charging. It takes six hours to fully charge the Raptor but, although I have never pushed it, I should get six to eight flights out of it with the Duralites on board.

As I cannot make up my mind, I have been taking both to the field recently.



hey Ah Clem

don't I remember you from the Belt CP forums? you still on? how's everybody back there? those were the days!

after having a lipo explode and catch fire on me (it had just finished charging and was sitting peacefully for 15 min or so; and NO, I did not do anything wrong! it just exploded!!! :eek: ) I sold my electrics got a used R50V2, and I've never looked back

to me a 50-class nitro is soooooo much easier to fly, easier to see at a distance, more stable & predictable, and just more of an overall "real helicopter" flying experience than the electrics...nitro swirling thru the blades rocks!!! :D

but the best of all is, w/ a couple gallons of nitro, I can literally fly all day...with the Trex, once the batteries drain, you're done

I've heard the Trex600 is the cat's pajamas, but looking at the cost of those batteries gives me the shivvers

ciao
jeff

[TachyonDriver]

flustercluck (gotta love the username!) the Trex600 does come in a nitro flavour too ;)

erm, I find your avatar pic kind of disturbing with the human/dog thing happening there. :eek: :D

Regarding the pollution aspect of nitro fuel - does anyone have the info about carbon footprint etc. just in case a tree-hugger wants to argue about my smoky toy I would like to get my facts straight, even if said tree-hugger's right.

Tach.

[flustercluck]

flustercluck (gotta love the username!) the Trex600 does come in a nitro flavour too ;)

erm, I find your avatar pic kind of disturbing with the human/dog thing happening there. :eek: :D

Regarding the pollution aspect of nitro fuel - does anyone have the info about carbon footprint etc. just in case a tree-hugger wants to argue about my smoky toy I would like to get my facts straight, even if said tree-hugger's right.

Tach.


hey tachyon you like that picture of my puppy? I've actually taught him to talk, but at the moment I'm the only one who can understand what he says

as to that "tres-vogue" carbon footprint thingie, if you're questioned by a tree-smugger, couldn't you just flip inverted and give the smugger a haircut? :D no flames!! just kidding!! :D

lastly, I rationalize that since nitro is cool to the touch, that nitro exhaust has a cooling effect on the atmosphere, and thus has a mitigating effect on anthropomorphic global whining (whoops!! I meant warming!!!)

therefore, the more I fly, the cooler it gets

ciao gang

jeff

[WayneBrown]

Hell, the more I fly, the cooler I get..

[TachyonDriver]

LOL - same here Wayne, but it's usually just wind chill ;)

[willhaney]

I've actually taught him to talk, but at the moment I'm the only one who can understand what he saysReminds me of another guy name of Sam. :D

Will

http://www.willhaney.com/rcgroups/fwiw/(S(42gaffjkz5qxvg55mpc4d345))/Default.aspx (http://www.willhaney.com/RCGroups/Home)

[flustercluck]

Reminds me of another guy name of Sam. :D

Will

http://www.willhaney.com/rcgroups/fwiw/(S(42gaffjkz5qxvg55mpc4d345))/Default.aspx (http://www.willhaney.com/RCGroups/Home)


yeah, it's complicated; sometimes even I don't understand it

[Cambo]

Nitro
-cheaper
-fly as long as your reciever and transmitter have enough juice. A quick field charger lets you fly all day
-longer flight times
-when you crash, most of your equipment should survive. With an electric you are practically garanteed a $200 battery replacement.

Electrics
-Quick and simple, plug in and fly
-VERY powerful
-quiet
-no clutches

[ashdec87]

For me the noise of a nitro engine is a plus... really, i think its cool to have the chopper screaming away up there.

Secondly, probably most importantly, nothing beats the smell of burning nitro as you fly at sunset. However everything beats the smell of burning batteries at sunset :)

[flustercluck]

For me the noise of a nitro engine is a plus... really, i think its cool to have the chopper screaming away up there.

Secondly, probably most importantly, nothing beats the smell of burning nitro as you fly at sunset. However everything beats the smell of burning batteries at sunset :)


amen, Bro! :D

and let's add to that: nothing cooler than watching nitro exhaust swirling thru the mains and changing direction as the pitch does!!

cheers
jeff

[deity]

I was all about electrics a year ago.2 Trex 450s, 1 Blade CP Pro, and Blade CX2.

I went to the local heli club fly in and watched the big nitros fly. My 450 felt very small and insignificant:)

I just purchased my first Nitro chopper (Trex 600 Nitro) and cant wait to fly it this weekend.

For me the difference boils down to 2 things, electrics are generally smaller (50 size electrics aside) and are great for indoor flying during the winter. The Nitros tend to be bigger and are perfect for flying outdoors at your local club during the summer. For me they both have advantages. The electric rig is great for after work when I feel like throwing the chopper in my car, heading to the baseball field and burning a couple packs through it with very little work or mess. the Nitro will be a bigger more in depth ordeal, with much more prep involved.

So in short, get one of each...lol

[archiebald]

and let's add to that: nothing cooler than watching nitro exhaust swirling thru the mains and changing direction as the pitch does!!

Yep, my favorite sight is to bring my Raptor down on a smooth TAILWIND approach, matching the windspeed to set up a ring vortex condition, and seeing the smoke recirculate through the rotor disk all the way down. Just got to be careful a little at the bottom to get out of it before landing.

[TachyonDriver]

This may seem a dumb question, but how do you get out of the ring vortex, just use plenty of collective? Or cyclic input to try and move the heli out of the ring?

Yeah, another plus point for nitro, the smoke tells you what the wind is doing around the heli :)

Thanks,
Tach.

[BeaterCRX]

This may seem a dumb question, but how do you get out of the ring vortex, just use plenty of collective? Or cyclic input to try and move the heli out of the ring?

Cyclic to move out of it. If you use collective you'll fall faster.

[ashdec87]

amen, Bro! :D

and let's add to that: nothing cooler than watching nitro exhaust swirling thru the mains and changing direction as the pitch does!!

cheers
jeff

Haha.. i love on start up how smoke kind of builds up under the mains (i spool up with 0 pitch) then when i added collective it all blows out in one huge cloud...

The smoke being kicked through the tail rotor is kinda fun too..

But seriously. I love both gas and electric. Nitro is great cuz the chopper is heavy, likes to stay in one place till you tell it to move, its big and plain cool. I like my 450 t-rex cuz its cute, FAST, quick to get into the air, quiet.

But most of all i love them both cuz they are mine :)

[archiebald]

This may seem a dumb question, but how do you get out of the ring vortex, just use plenty of collective? Or cyclic input to try and move the heli out of the ring?

Yeah, another plus point for nitro, the smoke tells you what the wind is doing around the heli :)

Thanks,
Tach.

Unlike full scale helis, a nitro 50 is so grossly overpowered that it will pull itself out on collective only - just needs a little prod on the throttle stick - but I find it fun to play around in it.

However, my first ever heli was the Nexus Legato with the 4 stroke OS52S in it. The thing was so underpowered that you really had to be careful of ring vortex - almost like flying full scale I guess. That thing would plummet at the first hint of recirculation.

[TachyonDriver]

Thanks for the info, chaps!

[flustercluck]

Haha.. i love on start up how smoke kind of builds up under the mains (i spool up with 0 pitch) then when i added collective it all blows out in one huge cloud...

The smoke being kicked through the tail rotor is kinda fun too..

But seriously. I love both gas and electric. Nitro is great cuz the chopper is heavy, likes to stay in one place till you tell it to move, its big and plain cool. I like my 450 t-rex cuz its cute, FAST, quick to get into the air, quiet.

But most of all i love them both cuz they are mine :)


to tell ya the truth, I really loved my little (I say "little" when compared to my R50V2) Trex450 XL

but then one day (stop me if you've heard this) my lipo exploded :eek: & caught fire :eek: 20 min or so after charging :eek:

that did for me w/ electrics, right then and right there... so now no flippin' way do I trust light-metal battery chemistry

now if there's some electric out there than can fly well with the much more stable and safer heavy-metal batts such as NiCd, NiMh, etc, then I might dip a toe back into electrics, just for giggles.... but NO WAY do I trust or feel remotely safe around lipos.... b/c to me, they're grenades with the pins removed

that said (again, IMO), my Rappy is just the sweetest babydoll I can imagine... the designers really did they're homework

cheers
jeff

[sprintr]

hi im new here and also new to helis,but it seems to me you will never solve the nitro electric debate because they both have there place.
but it does give people something to talk about as for the pollution this might put it in perspective.
http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/cow_emissions_more_harmful_to_the_environment_than _car_emissions/

[Ah Clem]

flustercluck,

I used to be on the Venom discussions (and still participate sometimes), but not the Belt CP ones. Sounds like I missed out.

Regarding the lipos. You had a bad experience, and that type of thing still worries me. The potential damage from one TREX 450 battery is very severe, the TREX 600 batteries would really be ugly.

I keep the batteries in metal containers, but I worry about that somtimes (I have one of those cement lines fire safes that look like plastic briefcases too).

Scary either way.

I am doing more glow than electric, at the moment, although I still swap around quite a bit.

[raptor50SE]

for a bigger heli i think u should go gas because if u go eletric its alot more money! :)

[highflier]

Fluster,
While I am a electric kinda guy (Trex 450 v2) it sounds like a A123 electric powered Heli might be a closer to your e- desires. You can create a 10s1p pack for just over 100.00 The A123 have a metal caseon them and do not explode, Yea they are a little heavier but you can charge them in a hurry.

Highfler

[flustercluck]

Fluster,
While I am a electric kinda guy (Trex 450 v2) it sounds like a A123 electric powered Heli might be a closer to your e- desires. You can create a 10s1p pack for just over 100.00 The A123 have a metal caseon them and do not explode, Yea they are a little heavier but you can charge them in a hurry.

Highfler


highflyer sounds neat... got any links/other info?

thanks
Jeff

[highflier]

Fluster,
There is alot of info on the batteries if you just do a search on A123 in the Battery forum,

Also you will find info about exact applications in the Electric Heli forum, I beleive Trex 600 and the like our popular choices for the A123 solutions. The cells are durable I have some 3s packs that I use in a combat wing. My charging setup charges them in 15 minutes, I hae had no issue yet.

Highflier

[flustercluck]

Fluster,
There is alot of info on the batteries if you just do a search on A123 in the Battery forum,

Also you will find info about exact applications in the Electric Heli forum, I beleive Trex 600 and the like our popular choices for the A123 solutions. The cells are durable I have some 3s packs that I use in a combat wing. My charging setup charges them in 15 minutes, I hae had no issue yet.

Highflier


highflier thx that's good stuff... and I'll do a forum search

but frankly, I"m stunned that ANY battery chemistry other than li-poly has sufficient power density to be useable in heli's.... a Trex600 on A123???? I had no idea such a thing even existed

as to the volatility of lipo's, I just recvd in the mail today an urgent recall notice from hobby-lobby, saying that the lipo and charger combo sold w/ one of their models is subject to explode & catch fire

call me chicken but that's enuf right there to scary me away from light-metal batteries

[highflier]

Here is a vid of a swift under a123 power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RStBQYPE5sM

In the groups I saw many references to raptors under a123. To be honest I am a bit out of my territory over here as I am a mini sized guy and electric only. Just thought I snoop over here in the nitro forums.

Yea, Lipos are for people that can detailed and don't make mistakes. the A123 have been abused to all hell and to be honest I have not even heard of them failing outside of intentional destruction, and the failures that I have heard about were not much more then a pop noise and no more worky.

Highflier

[daking]

Not sure where you guys get the electric has more power. A buddy has got the 600E. All stock with align 4600 6s2p pack. HS is at 1950 and it can only pull about 9deg of pitch. I hear the 600XL motor is way better but that add's another $120 to the bill.

My new 600N has an os 50 hyper with a stock MUFFLER, not pipe at 1950 HS it pulls 13deg of pitch. Needless to say, my nitro rape's the electric in EVERY way. Same everything but power train. DX7,stock servos,401/9252,Radix blades. My bird is lighter,cheaper to build and to fly.

But I do have a 450 that I fly ALL the time. I am really a hard core electric guy for about 8 years now. This is my second nitro (tried a rappy 50) anything in 8 years. I dont like that I cant go down the street to fly my nitro. I dont like cleaning it up after a day of use. I dont like having to all ways buy fuel but, all in all...... I love my 600N. I love the smoke trail, I love the smell and the power is addicting !!!!

I priced out a 600E before I got the nitro. Even looked at the 30 size electrics. There allmost as much for batt's and motor as the 50 size. the 500 or 550 size looks to be the dividing line between the two. Price wise anyway. You can use your 3s 2100 packs witch are everywhere and its not soo small like the little 450. Dont get me wrong, I love my 450. It has tought me a lot and has soo much more to show me but, it is pretty small and hard to see.

DK

[kwikee]

Best thing about my nitros is that i land, refuel, and fly again. I don't need a dozen big $$ batteries, and I can keep re-fuelling and flying all day if I want, no waits for re-charges. But then again, I don't have the power that some electrics have these days.
But then again, I get 10 minute flights, too...

James

[BoneDoc]

DK, you're missing the point if you're comparing the Align 6S2P with your 600N setup. At the very least use FP / TP packs with the XL and you get a hot setup. Better yet is the 8S 4000 setup. THAT, my friend, will kick any 90 setup in the rear :D.

[daking]

DK, you're missing the point if you're comparing the Align 6S2P with your 600N setup. At the very least use FP / TP packs with the XL and you get a hot setup. Better yet is the 8S 4000 setup. THAT, my friend, will kick any 90 setup in the rear :D.

I have seen a 600L powered ship running FP packs. Its a little better than the align pack for sure. But maybe what I would call .30 power.

Lets see, 8s FP pack at $400?
Neu 1515/2.5DF $300?
CC85HV $150?

Total $850.
OS hyper $190?
Hatori $100?

Total $290

Allmost triple the price? It should rip it to shred's !!!!!

I could even past by the fact that the electric power is only 4 to5 mins a flight. Love the fly anywhere'ness of electric. But I cant deal with the fact that I have to wait an hour for another flight. Unless Of course I want a complete spare heli worth of packs laying around for it. Ya, I bet that it would only take 3 or 4 packs and the heli to come up to the same price as two complete 600N's ?!?!

I stick to my guns. I think the dividing line between whats better electric or glow is around the 450 to 500mm birds. But the plank side of it, I can power a .40 ship easyly on the same power train that goes into a rex 450 !! I have done it on a 480 size mega with a 25 amp speedo on a 5s1p 2100 pack !! But some of the bigger .40 are allmost .60 size and really the dividing line. Normal size .40 and down electic. Big .40 and up, glow.

DK

[BoneDoc]

I'm not even arguing about price. You don't power these big birds with electric because it's cheaper, you do it because you want to :D.

For me, with my hectic schedule, electrics allow me to go to the field, fly two - three packs, and leave. I can do that in the time that it takes some people to clean up their glow.

[AMA Outlaw]

I grew up flying nitro planks as a teen. Now, I have less free time and find the cleanliness of electric more desirable. It's so easy to leave my E550 or Cool at work all day and have a quick flight before work or several flights at lunch while I let the batteries recharge on the companies electric bill afterwards. I always try to keep 4 batteries on hand for each size of bird so that I can go fly in the morning and while eating lunch and BSing afterward I'm recharging the batteries so I can give it a go again before going home for the day. At a club it seems that I could never fly nonstop on nitro as someone else would always want to fly on my freq or the other two interfering ones so you have to stop now and then anyways to let others fly. I just charge batteries during that time now.

If I were already a nitro guy trying to move to E Power it would be costly for sure, but for someone just starting and still buying equipment (550-600 blades) the costs are closer to each other. The nitro support equipment you will need is a wash pricewise with charger/balancer equipment. Only the price of batteries is high, but I've been buying DN Power packs for less than 1/2 the price of the others and they really are great. I watch for specials and never buy batteries for over $170 each. I figure that if I fly 10-15 flights a week then after 5 months the costs are even between fuel and electric. (10 flts/gal, $28/gal is $112-168 per month vs. $165 I paid for Align 6S2P 4200's) Good batteries should last at least that many charges! At that rate, I have tended to use the batteries up in about 9 months of flying.

[highflier]

To be fair... you should figure out how many minutes of flying that battery pack gives you before is it worn out. Then figure out how many gallons of Nitro you need to fly the same number of minutes.

After all a nitro heli is called a nitro cause it burns it up into fumes!

Highflier

[AMA Outlaw]

I'm figuring 10, 10 minute flights per gallon of Nitro ($28 at the hobby shop, never bought it online) per week is 100 minutes a week. That's about 400 minutes per month for $112.

I get 7:30 to 8:15 of sport flying going to 80%-depending on the size of the LiPo, aggressive flying is 7-7:30 and I estimate 3D would be another 30 seconds less. That's about 53 flights to equal 400 minutes, or 13.25 flights a week (versus the 10 flights on nitro).

I bought my DN Power 6S2P 4400's for $130, and the Align 6S2P 4200's for $165. If I have 4 of each to allow for 4 morning flights and 3-4 afternoon flights then in 4.64 months the DN Power batteries break even with nitro and in 5.89 months the Align batteries will. At 13.25 flights per week on 4 batteries I am recharging each battery 3 times a week or 13.25 times a month. A conservative life of 150 cycles means my batteries will last 11.3 months. One hundred cycles (averaging in crash damaged batteries and general abuse) is 7.5 months of use.

The basic heli minus batteries will come out about the same price-wise (forget that $300 Neu motor, I paid less than that for my Z30A/ESC/BEC all together- $240 ). The difference in price between my support (charging) equipment ($165 for A109 Charger and balancers) and what nitro support equipment ( roughtly- $50 Starter, $20 Glow Stick, $40 flight battery charger, $30 Fuel Pump, and a flight box) comes out roughly even. I won't include things like glow plugs, wrenches, windex, etc as that's probably eaten up by the cost of electricity to charge up the LiPo's. The only difference should be fuel costs- Nitro vs. LiPo's and after 5 or 6 months the costs are the even (LiPo's are like buying fuel upfront and not week by week for nitro).

There are some new batteries out this summer that are resistant to over-discharging (forget the 80% rule with Kong Power and Air Thunder) and A123 cells are cheap (about $100 a pack) plus they are almost bullet-proof, can be recharged in 15 minutes, but are only 3500? mAh per cell. New, higher capacity A123's are coming out now or very shortly I believe.

[highflier]

Ahh.. The A123 cells are 2300 MAH per cell. Of course if you are running 2p that is 4600 per cell.

Great cells I use them in a combat wing.

Highflier

[daking]

ama outlaw.....I buy fuel from lhs also. $84 a case.

My raptor 50 would get 9 flights/gallon at 14 mins/tank
my 600N gets 15 flights/gallon at 9 mins/tank.

Does your 600 have .30 power or .50 power with the DN/Z motor combo?

Dont get me wrong, would love to fly a 600 before work but, for the price of 1 electric I can have two complete 600n's.

DK

[AMA Outlaw]

LOL, if I were to buy nitro here in Amazonas I would have to buy it from the local club as no-one has any in gallon jugs. It's "imported" from Sao Paolo by the barrel up to us here. Somewhere in the $40/gal range! That alone made up my mind to go electric here. But, when I move back to the states I'll already have all the support gear for electrics so I doubt I'll go back to nitro- and I'm betting that the prices of batteries will continue to drop as large e-helis get more popular.

Daking, everybody's setup is different and I've heard of guys getting 8-9 minute flights of hard 3D and 22 minute flights hovering around on a .30 nitro. I've also heard of 5 minutes of 3D and up to 18 minutes doing aerial photography with electric. I don't dispute that electric flies less per flight in general and I don't argue with anyone's claims regarding flight times per gallon. With my E550 on 6 cells the limit to power is the battery pack brand and how they deliver the power over the flight. DN Power hold their voltage pretty constant compared to Max Amps or Align batteries, but FP have more initially and end about the same from what others have told me. I haven't flown a .30 raptor in real life, but the .30 Raptor in RealFlight is underpowered in comparison. Mines more like flying with the OS .46 installed in it.

I'm not trying to convince everyone to move to electrics, just saying that I have a pretty price competitive sport/mild 3D setup on 550 blades. At least in the long run that is, and especially for where I am living now.

[highflier]

I am an electric guy so don't take this wrong. But it seems if you want long flights without landing for a fuel stop then Nitro will probably win big. With electrics, the batteries are the big weight item. With Nitro it really is the engine. Thus it it much easier to oversize the fuel tank and have long long flights. Yea we can put bigger batteries in, but they add more weight faster.

I am not happy with my flight times of 8 Min (on a trex 450) I know that I can get up to 9 if I was to change to a more effiencent motor. I think 10-12 min would be the perfect flight time, After that I could use a few min to rest brain cells.

So I will give flight times to the Nitro guys, But On the reverse side for a short quick flight moment the electric kicks butt. We can plug a battery in and fly 8-9 min before the nitro guys are even to the flying field.

If we want to both go to the flying field it's probably not for 1-2 flights, however if it was then think of the clean up time, After run oil. Wipe down. etc... would take as long as the first flight lasts

I think I will stay electric, Battery technology is going to continue to get better. Nitro technology is likely to remain very similar for a long time.

Highflier

[desert_flyer]

For fixed wing aircraft, I am electric all the way, right up to a giant scale Yak. The cleanliness, lack of vibration and light weight is hard to beat.

However, when it comes to larger helis, those advantages are less important and don't outweigh the cost differential. With Helis there is very little cleanup (and no wood to suffer fuel rot) and more inherent immunity to vibration. Furthermore, I find that Helis just arent the same without the sight and sound of smoke-filled rotors.

For all-out 3D, the 90-size electric helis probably have the performance edge. But 4000 watts doesn't come cheap and you need to carry a battery the size of a small nuclear reactor if your field doesn't have AC power.

[TachyonDriver]

Furthermore, I find that Helis just arent the same without the sight and sound of smoke-filled rotors.

I know.... TURBINES just don't sound the same! :D :p (yeah, like I can afford a turbine heli....)

erm.... after run oil? I've never used it :o I presume that I can expect a shorter engine life, or is that not what a.r.o is for?

Got to hand the first flight of the day to the electrics though - just switch on and go.

Tach.

[DeadTom]

All,

At the threat of opening up this thread again, I would like to ask if anyone can break down the cost per minute of flying time for both the electrics and the glow helicopters. I currently fly micro and mini electrics and got to wondering what the cost of .30 , .50 and .90 sized helis would run per minute vs the electrics up to the 600 size. Anyone up to the challenge? Someone with knowledge of both technologies and average to expert flying skills and types of flying (FFF, 3d, hovering, etc.).

Tom

[Bud Morrison]

The cost is about the same it has been broken down a couple times in the E-Raven conversion threads.

The only problem with large electrics is that if you want to fly as much on a given day as a nitro heli you need over $1000.00 in batteries and chargers above the cost of the heli itself to get the same flight time. Due to having to have multiple packs on charge at once. Plus you won't get 10 minutes of 3D power like you do Nitro. Nitro you land refuel and right back in the air. Fuel you can buy a gallon at a time if you want. but after you thrash all the numbers of cost of fuel and the cost of the batteries over time they come out about even in the end.

[daking]

I crunhed a LOT of numbers when I was buying my 600mm blade heli. I love electric, put a pack in and go. Can get flights in the morning before work (not gonna try that with a nitro), dont have to clean all the slime off the bird when Im done. The list goes on and on.

But there is NO WAY electric is as cheap as nitro in a bird this size !!

I did the Rex 600 for compairison. Just runtime, no chargers, fuel pump, starter, power supplys, nothing, just runtime with packs and fuel.

FP 5000 mah 6s pack $300
150 cycles ( most only get 100) at 4.5 mins=675 mins.

I get about 7 to 8 mins a tank and 13 tanks/galln=91 min/gallon.

675 / 91 = 7.5 gallons. 2 case's of fuel is 8 gallons. $84 a case x 2 comes out to a grand total of $168

So now for the same RUNTIME, not power but just runtime, you get
Electric = $300
nitro = $168

Hope this helps
DK

[AMA Outlaw]

Just to keep the thread going and encourage more discussion...

I have over 150 cycles each on my Align 4200's and after a year the only effects I can see are that I've lost about 5% capacity from it which is about normal for a LiPo. (of course one of them is a replacement for a battery that swelled on the first hover test for the heli) I was getting 7:15 flights at 1850 rpm at first and now recently at 2100 rpm use much more battery and get 6:10 flights but 3D starts eating seconds off of that to around 5:30 per flight. I paid $165 for those batteries, and HotHeli has them for $150. They are too small for a 600 bladed heli, but fit my E-550 perfectly. I just bought AirThunder 6S1P packs for $230 that I also expect to easily go for 150 flights.

To be fair, I also tried two other brands that lasted less than 50 flights each. I guess this is about the equivalent of buying a new brand of fuel that doesn't perform well or smokes excessively or even that you had to buy in a hurry outside of your normal supply channels and paid a little extra for on a brand you didn't know.

Those 150 flights per battery at 7 minutes each come to 1050 minutes of flight so far and still going strong. I fully expect to get another 50 flights out of them if not more the way they are progressing. If I had bought fuel at $18 per gallon (assuming 12 flights of 10 minutes each per gallon on a 550 blade heli with a .42-.46 engine in it for equal power levels) then I would have spent $182 on those 9 gallons of fuel to get about the same 1050 minutes as electric.

If I were to go for more performance I would of course be buying more expensive batteries and higher nitro/oil content fuel so costs for both would be skewed. I think the 500-550 mm blade helis are the limit for what you can compare somewhat equally on costs. 600 helis need 8-10 cells for good performance. The next step is a 680-710 bladed heli running two fairly common and cheap 6S packs (from the 500-550 heli) in series. That would have great performance and batteries could be sourced a little easier/cheaper.

[highflier]

CHeck out e-rc right now. They have some packs on clearence that could really cut your flying cost down. Does nitro ever go on clearence????

Highfliier

[daking]

Does nitro ever go on clearence????

If nitro did go on clearance, much like most clearance racks Ive seen, you dont want it.

DK

[desert_flyer]

Ultimately the A123 electric route is the cheapest. I have a Swift 620 running 13S A123s and I paid $150 for the cells, which are rated at 500-1000 cycles. Runs a 2100rpm headspeed on 610mm blades for 5.5 mins per flight. Assuming I get 500 cycles, that is 30 cents per flight. Already have over 100 flights with no issues - and of course I can recharge the pack in 8 minutes...

[highflier]

About 30% of the electrons that I own our kept inside of A123 cells. They get the most use and are slowly gaining in %.

Highflier

[siang]

love nitro, still flying my electrict thou, a 450. Because of the difference in size, it wont be fair for me to pass any judgement on its performance.
However, I'd never go back into electric again. Reason is recharging the lipos, even if you have heaps, it will takes ages to charge them all. So fun time at the field turn to a job at home. Upfront cost is higher and also risk damaging the lipo if there is a major crash so just forget about comparing the cost.
No mess on nitro, coz I'm a heli flyer. However, negative side is I cant fly nitro wherever I want.

[RAPTOR 3D]

I like the nitro myself!

[maarset]

Thanks for all the great posts. Been flying a Blade 400. Looking for a bigger heli. Went to a local flying club today to fly the Blade 400. One of the guys let me hover his .50 heli. Very cool. Most guys there fly Nitro. Just fly for over 10 minutes. Take a break for 5 minutes. Fill up and fly again. How do you beat that? I haven't totally given up on Electric for a bigger heli. But Nitro is looking really good for flying at the local club field. I guess I want atleast a .30 size heli either electric or nitro. A123's are also an excellent alternative.

Mike