Clancy wing design

[fnpaulie1]

In another forum here, up in Sport Electrics I think, I was a part of a discussion regarding Andy Clancy's wing designs and it got me thinking.
The Baby Bee, Lazy Bee Special, Speedy Bee and the Yard Bee all have a similar wing shape. The difference is that the 2 larger planes have ailerons and the smaller 2 do not.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they also all have, at least to some extent, the underside of the wing tip sweep up to the tip. I've read that this creates some dihedral effect.
Is this true? How?
I'm looking to scratch build a small (36") Bee-ish park flyer and wonder if the wing designed for the Yard Bee is capable of leisurely flight. My Yard Bee was not and this is my issue. Does this wing need ailerons? My Speedy Bee flies great, but it has them.
Should I try to build a smaller Lazy Bee design with polyhedral?
I like the elipse style of the Yard Bee but worry it will not be nice to fly with just a rudder.

[fnpaulie1]

Anyone???

[Ollie]

There are two ways that the plane makes the turn. Those two ways make any plane bank so it can turn.

1. The wing uses dihedral or polyhedral, rather than ailerons, so that the rudder makes the plane yaw. Then the yaw makes the wing with dihedral/polyhedral so the plane banks and turn. It is named yaw-to-bank coupling.

2. The flat wing with, almost dihedral/polyhedral, the ailerons make the plane bank and turn.

Your choice.

[fnpaulie1]

Thank you for a reply, could you also answer regarding if the wing tip design of the Baby Bee and Yard Bee actually creates any dihedral effect?

[Ollie]

"---could you also answer regarding if the wing tip design of the Baby Bee and Yard Bee actually creates any dihedral effect?"

The wing tip design is very small to nil dihedral effect. Forget about wing tip design, in my opinion.

The dihedral effect is improved by dihedral angle and yaw angle. The leading wing half improves with attack angle with higher lift and the lagging wing half means the lower attack angle with lower lift. The difference the two wing halves means the difference between the two halves wing lift which causes the wing banking. Wing banking means the plane turns.

[Ollie]

There is more. Besides the dihedral effect there is an "parachute" effect due to high wing position and low CG position. For example see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Paraglidertakeoff.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_gliding

[BMatthews]

Thank you for a reply, could you also answer regarding if the wing tip design of the Baby Bee and Yard Bee actually creates any dihedral effect?

Yes, the angled lower surface of the Clancy wings does produce a dihedral effect.

Although I have not flown a Clancy design I did fly an electric sport model built by a buddy of mine years ago that had a totally flat wing but with wingtips that used this angled lower surface similar to the Clancy setup. The model rolled OK but not great using rudder and elevator.

However... a model with "real" dihedral can actually fly upside down and the dihedral to rudder coupling will still work like ailerons and the "rudder" rolls the model just fine. But my buddy's model with only the angled wingtips didn't work that way. It would just yaw horribly and not roll unless I pulled up elevator to restore a positive G condition and restore a positive angle of attack to the upside down wing. Then it would roll OK but not great. So rolls were mostly of the barrel'y sort.

Not that you see many Clancy R-E models like the Lazy Bee's rolling and flying upside down... But if you did they would likely suffer from the same sort of behaviour.

So while it does sort of work it would be more accurate to call the angled lower trick an ersatz dihedral... :D

[Brandano]

there's also another way a plane with no ailerons can be made to bank.. as the Germans found out with the V1 prototypes. If you have a long nose and a flat, short wing when the plane side-slips due to rudder input the inboard portion of the wing can end in the wake of the nose, and be effectively blanketed from it. This makes the wing virtually shorter and starts a turn in the same direction of the rudder input. When this happens it usually ends up in a spin, unless it's controlled by reducing the rudder throw.

[Al M]

The Lazy Bee rolls very well with rudder. It rolls best with rudder and down elevator. I understand the versions with ailerons were not as good but I can't verify that. LB's are not noted for their inverted flight. They seem to fly inverted better by accident rather than on purpose.

[fnpaulie1]

Great info, thanks. I guess I'l have to come up with something. I would like a little more control so I may use ailerons or build a smaller Lazy Bee wing. A quiet trip to the park can get exciting when you venture into a draft or a breeze hits suddenly.
OOh! Maybe I'll give a Wingeron setup a try.

[metalbuggy]

Great info, thanks. I guess I'l have to come up with something. I would like a little more control so I may use ailerons or build a smaller Lazy Bee wing. A quiet trip to the park can get exciting when you venture into a draft or a breeze hits suddenly.
OOh! Maybe I'll give a Wingeron setup a try.


If it is a high-wing monoplane, I would try the wingeron on just the wing-tip.

The wingeron on the Stagger works on the high wing in conjunction with the low wing staying put.

[BMatthews]

Or just angle the tips up more so they look like a glider's tip dihedral setup. The top spars won't be dead flat anymore but it's not a big deal to do this since you need to make the tips that way anyhow. Just angle them up another inch per side.

[fnpaulie1]

That was going to be my next question. Thanks.

[macboffin]

And keep it light! More wing area or less weight = slower flight possible.

[JRuggiero]

fnpaulie1,

My Baby Bee (a high-winger)was my first Clancy-designed airplane. I didn't trust the built-in dihedral effectiveness of the flat wing with the bottom surface swept up to the tip, so I build a wing of similar shape, but with with dihedralled tips on both upper and lower surfaces of the wing. Test flights showed that this was far too much dihedral for my style of flying, so I built the stock flat wing with upswept tip undersides. The Baby Bee flew fine.

Having a spare wing now, I built a low-wing fuselage and used the modified wing on that. It also flies fine, but it looks a little goofy in the air from certain angles.

Jim R

[Texas Buzzard]

To the thread starter,

If you stand in front of the Lazy Bee you'll see the center part is FLAT and each tip has diederal.

The angle of dihedral isn't criticle. I usually raise the tip up about 3" up from building board....estimate 9 degrees or so.

The dihedral allows you to turn ( to roll actually) with just rudder input).
Good Bird!

[Texas Buzzard]

About 15 years ago I got plans from Clanceyand built the 38"w.s. version the photos show that wing. As you can see the center sexction is flat, about 9 " of each tip is set to a 3" dihedral (aprox.) It flew with 3 ch. Rudder and elevator but I added airerons Later.

I have a similar wing on a Lazy Bee Look Alike with 58" w.s. Do no worry. you can fly very well with this set up. The dihedraled tips make it bank and turn with application of the rudder. That big one uses an old Super Tiger .46 glo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
This is the 38"w.s. wing, the ailerons were added later- they are not needed.

[Texas Buzzard]

there's also another way a plane with no ailerons can be made to bank.. as the Germans found out with the V1 prototypes. If you have a long nose and a flat, short wing when the plane side-slips due to rudder input the inboard portion of the wing can end in the wake of the nose, and be effectively blanketed from it. This makes the wing virtually shorter and starts a turn in the same direction of the rudder input. When this happens it usually ends up in a spin, unless it's controlled by reducing the rudder throw.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Not seen in any Clancey design.
The "tilted up" tips give you enough dihedral to turn....believe me I have built & flown 2 of the Bee Designs.

I may be a bit odd, but when I turn the Lazy Bee look alike, I "BUMP" the rudder, that is I give a series of small rudder inputs to turn. Sure, if you hold the rudder over ....you will get a spiral dive....all the way to the hard groung!