F3J question

[Daryl Perkins]

I have a question for F3J participants and enthusiasts.

F3J is a blast to fly. The man on man and group launch aspect of it makes it a true test of soaring skills. But.... if you're not one who is equipped with an entourage, manpower has become a problem. In the states, to be competitive, one has to locate and even PAY towers just to compete.

My question is mostly for our overseas competitors. How are the Europeans handling it? Is manpower a problem at all? Or is there much more young manpower on the field to draw from? How are the Aussies running contests?

Just curious. By the way, I'm also curious about the average age of soaring competitors abroad. Please post your age with your post. (If you're not too embarrassed)

I'm 46 btw. Where did all the years go??? :)

Thanks in advance

dp

[D_Ryan]

Daryl;

I know you are looking from feedback from abroad, so disregard if you'd like...

I took a look at Jo Grini's web page, because I know he has in the past written of using F3B winches for F3J-like events...

He mentions a club-level F3J event in April where they used F3B winches and 100 meters to the turnaround instead of runners. The Norwegian F3J Cup (June) did use runners, but Jojo also mentions that the next Cup event would once again use winches, and that next year's Nationals may use winches.

When I had the opportunity to live in Europe (1997 - 2001) and attend one of two F3J Eurotour events as a spectator, I was always impressed by the sheer number of competitors, which no doubt makes drafting runners an easier proposition. In addition, the median age seemed to be lower than at a typical American contest (helped I'm sure by the Junior class participants). Of course, given that the event is F3J, and man-tows are a known requirement, likely those who attend know what they are in for, and those who aren't physically capable choose to stay home (or get onto a team where their inability to tow isn't an issue)...

r/
Dave Stack (45)

[Wing-span]

Daryl,

The norm in the UK F3J League is to use F3B winches out to 150m. Yesterday (1st July) we held one of the rounds where all of the teams bar one used winches. The high winds (23mph+ at ground level) enabled the only team using a single man tow line to match our launch height by kiting. Infact, Chris Foss (one of their pilots) finished 3rd.

I'm 31. I'm sure the average age of the competitors is over 45 (don't beat me up guy's :p ). The problem is we have nobody under 25 that I know of that competes. Simon Jackson won the day (youngest gun there).

Evidence attached:

[Sotir]

Hi Daryl,

In Bulgaria, thanks of NAN models (Nikolay Nikolov) from near 4 years we grow in F3J. All country competitions, and aslo near - Croatia, and Slovenia are using F3B winches (150 m turn). Because it's easy to make competition with more rounds. Here half of pilots are under 18 and other are between 35 and 45 years. 10 years old Filip Stamenkov will fly at European CH in Trnava this year as junior. We are small nation and have not more than 5 hour driving to every flying site. From april to the end of september we have 1 country and 1 eurotour F3J contest every month and usualy have no misses.
But I think thar man's tow is most important for F3J, because ot team spirit.

Sotir Lazarkov,
38

[OVSS Boss]

DP, you old wussy!

[Bernd Brunner]

Hi Daryl,

i joined a relatively small contest (something like a state championship) with about 30 pilots. In all groups everyone was pilot, spotter and towman. Pilots between 12 to 66 years. Average about 38. It was big fun with great group-spirit! F3J wouldn´t be F3j using winches!

Bernd

[roydor]

Deryl,

In Israel we changed to F3B winches two years ago, 150 meters to the turnaround. We still allow runners and have found them to be better in most conditions. Our working time is the same as F3J: launch time is not counted as flight time and working time starts from the signal before the start of the launch. This means that time on the line is critical. We have fund that Winch launches tend to take longer due to more elasticity in the longer lines. Because of this, hand tows are faster up to full "hand tow altitude" making us winch guys leave the line at a lower altitude (sooner) in order to be competitive. This gives similar altitudes even with weak runners.

Before we switched to winches we competed in teams of four competitors serving each in his turn as a pilot, a spotter or one of the two towers. The teammates never competed against one another in the preliminary rounds, which is not preferable but unavoidable in small competitions like ours. With winches we have groups of 3.


When I competed in an Open European contest (130 competitors) it was quite common for other competitors to ask me to tow for them which was not a problem when my friends or I were not flying. Others helped us as well and in winds I usually preferred the older guys since they usually come "ballasted" for the conditions (aka beer belly) :)

The average age of the competitors in Israel is around 30-35 (I'm 28) and a competition in Israel is 15-20 competitors.

Roy

[wixy3]

Hi Daryl I have been uk f3j league co-ordinator last 2 seasons.We have been using winches to f3b spec for at least 4 years maybe more memory fails with age .
We use mono line to 150mtr turn around .The competitors have the option to 2 man tow if they wish ,though very few do.
Wingspan is a youngster ,average age without him would be 45--55..
We try weather permitting to run 5 rounds and 2 flyoff rounds, with average attendance being 35 --50 competitors and teams max of 5 . The physical demands on an ageing group of f3j pilots was the reason winches became the norm.
The advantages are anyone of any age group/disability can compete .Its possible to compete with a team of 2 though I always try to group pilots in teams of 5 .Comps seem to run smoother as 5 minutes preparation time is ample
Disavantages team launch positions are fixed for the day .winch lines must be wound down to turn around immediately after release from tow hook so not to impeed others or drag across other lines causing burn damage.
Model set up can be slightly different ,you get used to using a winch then attend a euroleague event (hand tow only)and realise the difference to late.
and as roy says teams dont compete against each other ,other than flyoffs.I think much depends on the number of competitors and age group in each country as to whats best.We have a major problem with a lack of youngsters participating its a great sport but getting the message across is a secret that has avoided me perhaps our freinds in germany can advise .Wixy

[ShredAir]

Hi Daryl,

i joined a relatively small contest (something like a state championship) with about 30 pilots. In all groups everyone was pilot, spotter and towman. Pilots between 12 to 66 years. Average about 38. It was big fun with great group-spirit! F3J wouldn´t be F3j using winches!

Bernd

There is is your biggest difference: a "small contest" in Europe has 30 competitors, a number the US team trials could only dream of. Two reasons I can fathom for this: more interest in performance planes and much shorter travel distances.

Dieter Mahlein, ShredAir

[f3j rocks]

hi

in australia we use winches (150m). we still let people who what to do hand tows do that (its, pritty rear though). i am 15

thanks michael

[OVSS Boss]

Seriously, i wish we would too, use B winches. But not many here and way cheaper to get some towers.

Marc

[Jim Frahm]

I think the pilots should do the towing as well as flying, forget about paid towers. This would reduce the crew size and it would force all the expert old timers to fly with us new young timers. Okay, so maybe I'm not a young timer (43) but I am new to soaring and would jump at the chance to fly with the likes of DP, JW, LJ, etc, etc. Wouldn't it be awesome to have those guys helping you read air, setup your plane, and in return, you help with the towing. Sounds like a great way to get some new pilots into the mix. I'm in no way suggesting these guys wouldn't help you if you just asked them too.

Just a thought,

Jim

[danfield]

I have only had one opportunity to attend an F3J comp. The comp was well attended and as it was just before the WC, I know at least the top Canadians came down as well. It was at Harbor SS and I along with I think Nathan Woods ( Big Guy ) and me, skinny minny had the pleasure of Towing for Joe Wurts. Joe gave us his approval to "Break my plane". Joe gave the signal with 3 or so seconds left to preload the line,,,,, we took off. This isn't so bad,,, that was the first 10 feet or so and we hit a damn brick wall. We were dug in and pulling with everything we had and couldn't gain another foot. Quite impressive this Two Man tow thing. Best guess it provides a more powerful launch than F3B winches.

I remember there was talk of going to a One Man Tow for championships, I guess that never came about. Bottom line for me is, as fun as it was I wouldn't want to do it as a full time job, it's a bitch.

Dan

[Fred_L]

2007 is the second year that we have run the New South Wales F3J championship in Australia and a club F3J competition (only one round per year and it is this coming Sunday as it turns out) to modified F3J rules. The biggest difference is that we, like others here, use winches with 150m to the turnaround. We retain the 10 minute target flight time in 10 minutes of working time.
Without winches it would be just too difficult to get enough young fit towers to make it an even contest otherwise. One thing the CD did was to put the known 'better' pilots in different teams so they got to fly against each other.
F

[buzzaverill]

Hi Daryl
I have been a long time advocate for using winches to launch F3J models. Man on man duration flying!! This is the best of both worlds and as American as apple pie.

Three pilots from NM flew at the Denver F3J contest over Memorial day weekend for the first time. RMSA and Jim Monaco allowed the use of RMSA winches (they are well matched"real Balls" winches) with braided line, approximately 150 meters to the tunaround. RMSA provided two winches per team. There were 2 winches teams and 2 hand tow teams flying.
It appeared that the hand tow teams enjoyed quicker launches using mono line. Winch launches to equal height were 1-2 seconds longer than the hand tow launches.It was a blast, I would love to do more of this type of competition and it didn't cost $100 per tow person per day.
An alternative might be to use F3B winches.There are a lot of well defined F3B winches around that could be adapted to this event (optimize drum size) though they are inherently less powerful than the "Real Balls winches"

Buzz Averill

[Joe W]

Daryl,
Sorry, another domestic response here...

The annoying part about F3J is that to gain competitive advantage, you want to have the most powerful launch. A quick bit of thinking points one towards very muscular (and bulky) towers. There are some folk out there that can provide very good tows in light wind that aren't bulky, but they are few and far between, (hi Mark!) and if the wind picks up, they don't have the weight to provide traction... So, the competitive minded look to recruit gridiron linebacker types (where is Hans nowadays...?). Failing that, one looks around at the assortment of aging out of shape fellow fliers and takes what one gets!

The quandary about teaming with someone you want to get knowledge from when hand towing is the launch method, is that either he or you are likely to be at the other end of the line, so the amount of knowledge imparted is far lower than if winches are used!

I'm all for winch launching in F3J. I pushed pretty hard for this in the early days of F3J, and really got a lot of flack regarding my views. I find it interesting that England is using primarily winches for domestic comps, in that the largest voices for hand towing at that time was from there!

An interesting result from using winches in F3J, is that one now wants an extremely muscular person for the throw. The difference is that now the muscular needs are for upper body strength. This is so that the launcher can hold enough tension to stall the winch prior to the start of working time. This is reminiscent of the first F3J WC in England, where there was no count-down to the start of working time. When I flew, I would hold about 60 kg of line tension once they announced that the working time might be starting soon. When the horn went off, I threw, and the runners would use the launch as the signal to start running... Sometimes I had to hold the tension for several minutes as the announcement that the working time might be starting, and the actual start horn sometimes had a lot of separation!!! I actually did a bit of weight work at the time in preparation for the launch, as I had quickly figured out both analytically and via experience just how important the throw was in F3J launch performance.

JW age 46

[Jurgen]

A bit of a newbie question, but what is that trick with the leg lifted completely off the ground while tensioned line?
Jurgen.

[little flyer]

The leg being lifted or the "kick" is the signal to the towers to start running.

Jeff Walter
Age 15

[Joe W]

Our signal to the towers to commence their attempts to drag me down the field is a leg kick. A more level headed person would have his assistant kick instead of the thrower... but, I have run afoul of this in the past...

Story time, '04 WC in Canada. I was launching for Tom Kiesling. Tom was standing behind me. I slowly backed up to the launch lane to pre-tension the line prior to the start of working time. Tom backed up while staying directly behind me. Tom wasn't watching where he was stepping, and tripped over the line that they used to mark the launch lane. The towers saw a leg go up, and took off. This was about 5-6 seconds prior to the start of working time. At about 2 seconds to go I stalled the towers and the tension stabilized, and I knew that I could make the launch at the right time. Tom got a VERY good launch! He was on the line for only about two seconds, and got a huge zoom. (I suspect that the wing flex scared him a little bit) It was a good thing that we were using 1.35 mm speedline, as I am confident that we would have broken anything lighter.

After this incident, we coordinated with the towers prior to the launch as to who would be signalling the start!

JW

[OVSS Boss]

Even though I have a hard time kicking and throwing in the same launch, there are things to be said for it. The nats two years ago, had someone else make the kick, we were actually using a flag to signal, well, in one round instead of 2 seconds before the horn to go, he sent them at about 5 seconds. I almost made it to the horn, but just barely missed, but that was not the bad part, the shoulder surgery the next spring was and I am pretty sure that that throw was the cause. The throw was out of control when it happened, and it just made sense with what happened, I almost tore my bicep tendon off the bone, it really got to hurting before surgery was done, feels great now and I have someone else throw my ship on all contest launches all the time unless they are a newbie.

Joe is right as always.
Marc

[F3X]

I think the Europeans have it right, they get 100+ at a 2-day Euro tour event in F3J and about that in F3B and 40+ in some F3F. They also hold these events about every month in the summer. Plus they have a great junior pilot system.

The USA TD comps are dying. Maybe it's time to take our 3.7 meter models and fly longer than 3 minutes at 8:00am! What will it take to get either entries up or make the US comps something worth attending? The social aspect will ALWAYS be there, just look at how much fun the Europeans have at their comps. We can do it better.

[Daryl Perkins]

Thanks for the comments guys. Interesting to see so many either switching to, or allowing winches at F3J comps. F3J has evolved so far from the creators' intentions.

Joe, do you remember sitting on the field in Holland with Jack Siles, as he was explaining this neat new form of "fun fly" competition? The idea was, that anyone could be competitive with any model, and was mostly geared towards very light built up poly ships. Oh, and the top guys would sandbag to see where the air was, as 9:00 minute rounds would pretty much get ya into the flyoffs. But that was ok, cuz they throw away the scores and start over with a 2 round flyoff. It was basically geared towards the guys who had no desire (or the funds) to compete in F3B.

Joe and I looked at each other like, "oh yeah.... that'll happen." :rolleyes:

[mnluz]

DP,

In Brazil we fly f3j rules on winches. Reason is simplicity ! It is hard enought to get someone to sit on a chair under a unbrella and be a judge, professional runners ... just a dream.
We do a little practice with hand tow prior to the WC and that is it. Last year in Martin we got hurt by lower than average launches and it is just terrible when you have to launch at almost 8 PM flat air and see other guys 40 meter over your.
It was impressive to see how much tension JW could build on the line prior to the launch and his towers in action.
Arend had a quick launch that was very impressive and helped him to take points out of everyone.

Below link for the pictures of our latest contest.
http://picasaweb.google.com/marlon.n.luz/Taubate2007F3jContestValidForThe2007Ranking?authke y=wgVWLJXMs4I

Also video of a launch during the contest that I just posted here. Whinch.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=708370


Tks,
Marlon 30.. single, till september ;-)

Only 2 plitos are under 30. Most of the pilots are 30 to 50

[Jim Frahm]

F3X brings up a good point. I spent 7 years in Germany and attended several events as a spectator. Each event was well attended, food, vendors, lots of pilots and of course beer. Something they do that we don't; they promote the sport in every hobby shop, magazine, and flying club. I found out about the events and I wasn't even involved in the hobby at the time. Of course Germany is the size of Montana with 85 million people, so they have an advantage there. If you want the sport to grow, you need to introduce new pilots.

Jim

[Wing-span]

Advertising can be key to success and attracting interest. Local news papers are ALWAYS looking for stories to run, especially querky subjects. So before your next comp drop them a line and give them the news.

[markStockton]

Hi D,

Here in South Africa we fly all our team trials events as hand tow only events. Regional and Club events are run off 150m winch or a mixture of winch and hand tow. We matrix our events into 4 slots so that each pilot has two tow men and a caller available by using pilots in his own team. However the more competitive teams are bringing at least one additional helper. Standard rule in my team is that if you want to fly with me you have to be prepared to tow (or bring someone to tow on your behalf).

We have also started a process whereby we hope to have dedicated towmen recognised in the team awards at WC and EC level. Hopefully the proposal will be ready for the next CIAM meeting. The guys we took to Martin put in a huge amount of work in practice as well as weight training before the event. I guess this is why the Aussies grabbed them for fly-off.

Cheers

Mark (39)

[Richard S]

I'm all for winch launching in F3J. I pushed pretty hard for this in the early days of F3J, and really got a lot of flack regarding my views. I find it interesting that England is using primarily winches for domestic comps, in that the largest voices for hand towing at that time was from there!

This sounds quite typically English.

Although the UK was one of the main countries instrumental in getting F3J up and running, our main r/c soaring national body still refuses it's league events to fly to F3J rules (although this is finally beginning to change)

So in the UK we have had two separate groups flying two separate leagues, with the only difference in rules between them being the landing bonus awarded and the rules regarding a re-launch within the 10min slot time!

I fully support the use of winches in F3J, man-power can be a serious problem and IMHO should not affect the final result.

Going off-topic even more, has anyone else heard about the possible proposal to "ban" lawn-dart landings?

[OVSS Boss]

DP,
I remember Don Harris, 3X LV guy here in Ohio, and he was watching J at the Nats one year. He turned around to us and said, "The guys that invented this class are spinning in their graves watching this now." And I think that is exactly the shock that the US team put on the world in the first WC in England. I can remember those first articles about J and those big 4M polys in England and that first comp in CA that a guy flew an A1 Nordic and did his own tows, now weren't those the days!


Marc

[markStockton]

Going off-topic even more, has anyone else heard about the possible proposal to "ban" lawn-dart landings?

Yes, if memory serves correctly the proposal is from Belgium and works along the lines of "if the models tail does not come to rest on the ground, you do not get your landing points", or worded differently "if the model remains pegged with it's nose in the ground and the tail in the air, you loose the landing bonus". I seem to remember that it also requires the models to be correct side up.

It doesn't make much difference to us as our ground is as hard as rock. You'll break the nose off before you are able to peg the model.

[roydor]

I don't like the sound of this rule, coming in at a shallow angle can also result in a stuck model if the ground is soft enough.
People are always trying to find ways of complicating things. If you don't want it to become a lunch land competition change the rules to make thermaling harder, other ways people will start building planes with Elita style fuses to assist landings and find other "intelligent" solutions to the landing approach.

BTW, I think that belly landings can be MUCH more dangerous, in EC 2003 in Romania the ground was hard and the grass was very short. First training flight I landed 10 meters from myself in no wind and the plane slid all the way to me without loosing hardly any speed. It hit me in the leg broke the leading edge and cut my leg a deep cut. And I was landing a gentle slow landing... Most injuries during landings are from runaway planes. Dork landings, while not as graceful, are safer and result in less damage to the wing skins if the ground isn't grass covered (like the competition field in Israel).

I think that before inventing new rules one needs to look at other classes for the solutions used there. For example F1B (rubber powered free flight) changed the rules for less rubber in the motor system. This is equal to shorter lines in F3J (100 meters?). Free flight has a longer flight for weak conditions in the first round, not applicable in F3J but perhaps longer times to 12 minutes on all rounds?
You could always limit minimum and maximum wing loadings (free flight) or standardize wing span (F3K) or minimum weight (free flight), have more rounds, redefine score points for the landings.
You can limit my planes or my launches but don't limit my flying.

dork landings don't have to be energetic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RTqVLZlnVU

[tonyestep]

[QUOTE=F3X]
The USA TD comps are dying. Maybe it's time to take our 3.7 meter models and fly longer than 3 minutes at 8:00am....
=================
Tom, you're living in the wrong part of the world. From Denver eastward, the task times are 10 minutes or more and the competitions have more contestants each year.

I think that just changing the standard U.S. 10-minute MOM contest slightly by introducing the concept of working time would be a plausible step. This would naturally lead toward the F3J sort of flying. Guys would soon get dissatisfied with the height-vs-launch-time properties of our standard braided line winch setups, and things would evolve from there.

[OVSS Boss]

Roydor,
That was a great vid to show a landing that sticks in soft stuff. This guy did a great job of energy and clock management. The only place that I have seen this done is in MI with ground so muddy that anything would stick, we go other places to fly.

Marc

[roydor]

Thanks for the complements, that was me flying in WC in Slovakia. The ground was softened by the drizzle that was raining between some of the rounds but it was still fairly hard, not muddy really, dry enough for the sandals I was wearing at the time.

[sbxcflyer]

If you like statistics the link below is a good read


http://www.americansportsdata.com/sports_injury1.asp

[OVSS Boss]

You were dead on man!

Marc

[markStockton]

dork landings don't have to be energetic

I agree, the German proposal of scoring every 0.2m for the first 2 meters will probably do more to reduce the energy at landing time, however the landing's will still be pretty ugly.

WRT - Shortening the lines to 100m, I think you may well run the risk of introducing a bit of a luck factor into the event where by people on the one side of the flight line hit lift while those on the other side don't have enough height to get to the thermal.

[pacemaker3]

Hi Daryl, hallo all,

winch discussion in f3j is going on for a long time...

...looking at the f3j scene with 15 years of competition experience I would say that the demand for winches comes mainly from countries and competitors who are used to know f3j from small competitions.
I understand the problems of these pilots.....
In these cases using winches in f3j will help running competitions with entries from 0-40 pilots : with these numbers it is hard to find enough tow-men in each slot...!

on the other hand : fact is that the international FAI f3j rules are made for world championship events mainly ...!!
I learned that they are not made for regional / club competitions... :
with competitions of 60-120 pilots and 8-12 pilots in each slot f3j is easy with hand-towing.
most countries all over the world are flying f3j in competions with 15-30 pilots.... and here no flying matrix or hand-towing will work... i am afraid...!

Here in Germany we have 2-3 f3j competitions a year.
we have about 150 competitors joining the league and we often had to limit the number of pilots for the national championship to 100 pilots to ensure 6 rounds + fly-offs at a 2 day event !

Speaking about international competitions ( Contest F3J EuroTour ) there are around 400 pilots in the overall result list with 13 competions in around 10 countries with entries between 40 -140 pilots !
with number like this it was never a problem here to fly f3j with 2-men hand-towing...! most teams consist of 4-8 pilots . age from 14-70 ...!
btw I am 42 now and still enjoy "running" in f3j...;-)

at the Contest EuroTour in Arbois/FRA 2007 ( around 130 entries ) towing was pretty easy - although we had 90 degree crosswind .... towing takes about 4-5 seconds and running means 2-3 seconds than the tension was good and you just had to wait for release... ;-) most of the running
( another 30-50 meters) was done after zoom/release of the glider when you have to pull the line/parachute out of the towing area...;-)) !!

greetings...Stefan Eder / CONTEST Tourmanager

[gliding Oz]

Hi Daryl,
As Fred has already said, we mainly use F3B winches in Australia and only really use hand tow's in WC training.
This has allowed us at comps to do more flying and if there is only 15-20 guys at the field you can still fly aganst 5-6 people. It also gives a much more level playing field before the launch as it's not about how hard your tow men can pull but how you are going to fly that heat (launch, fly and land) with the same launching tools as everyone else.

I have also flown on hand tow's at the Pre worlds and at Holland glide and towed for the Aussie F3J team at the WC and yes there is a real difference in launches because of the guys towing. A two second launch with the top tow men could give you a better launch than a 4 second lanuch with not so good tow men.

As for the Age factor to launching, I have seen with my own eyes that a lot of older guys pull harder than guys half there age but maybe not as hard as two football players.

At the end of the day like any sport/hobby out there, the more you are willing to spend, the greater the advantage you could have.
Its the cost of winning and with the use of winches, it could lower this cost for you guys in the USA and by using winches for F3J it could change the face of your TD comps.

Cheers
Thomas

[lesterpk]

Down here in NZ, F3J hasn't hasn't much popularity as we have a similar winch launched event with a small window of working time to get away safely without the mass launch of F3J and its perceived (or real) chance of midairs. 10 minute man-on-man task with FAI spot.
Most contests would have less than 20 fliers so matrix fairness is a problem. One of our fliers also happens to be a mathematical professor and has developed a matrix for small events, where so long as everyone is on their own frequency, all fly against each other competitor once each rotation of the matrix.
We have 7 registered to trial for the F3J team for next years WC, so will be having our first real F3J rules contest later this year except we will be allowing 150m winches as well as hand tow.
Les.

[Tuomo]

In national F3J contests winches have become almost a norm. I guess most of us would want to fly both national and international contest under same rules. I mean 100% same rules. Towing is crucial part of F3J and having two kinds of towing methods cannot be good for the class in long run.

I would vote for winches on all levels if I had an idea how to organize big winch F3J events :confused: The problem is separation between winches and lenght on flight line. Our national events have typically around 20 pilots and even we have these problems. Almost all pilots have their own winches and they want to use the line selected for their model and weather. With 10 meter separation flight lines is 200 meters long! In practise we place the winches little tighter but still I see it hard to organize a winch F3J event for 30-40 pilots.

Separation between 2-man and winch F3J is not a good trend. Ultimately it is a threat to the global success of F3J. I am worried we end up with two variations of F3J. Winches are here to stay. It is important to find good solutions of how to organize winch F3J events. Good ideas are wellcome!

Secondly I would like to see shorter lines. Something like 100 or 125 meters line (or to turnaround) would be a good move. Current models/pilots do the 10min task too easily. Limiting launch altitude reduces also the need for going to 20/40/60/80 cm separation in landing. I do not like situation where landing skills dictate contest results, F3J is a thermal class.

[Tuomo]

Forgot to say that one important argument for winches is that they help contest director to run event in much faster phase. More flying, less towing. With winches it is possible to run 6 round 4-5 group national contest with 2 fly offs in one day.

[pacemaker3]

Good morning,

@tuomo

"... The problem is separation between winches and lenght on flight line. Our national events have typically around 20 pilots and even we have these problems. Almost all pilots have their own winches and they want to use the line selected for their model and weather. With 10 meter separation flight lines is 200 meters long! In practise we place the winches little tighter but still I see it hard to organize a winch F3J event for 30-40 pilots....."
#this is one of the main problem in my opinion...: I never heard about a solution to solve this problem: think about bigger comps with 60-100 entries.... 10 landing spots, teams with 5-8 pilots and therefore about 4 winches ( I would guess... similar to f3b...) and another couple of winches from another team on the same spot...!!
how to get the 10 m between starting model..?? should we carry away the winches after each flight..? then the possible time advantage-mentioned below -is not there anymore ....!
BTW: in CONTEST EuroTour events the CD collects the ground anchors at the beginning of the day and we leave the ground stakes at the line to save the time ...! ;-)
In f3b it is possible with winches because you don`t launch at the same time...in f3j you need a certain distance between the models....and this will enlarge the flight-line to huge dimensions....!

".....Secondly I would like to see shorter lines. Something like 100 or 125 meters line (or to turnaround) would be a good move. Current models/pilots do the 10min task too easily. ..........."
#also no new idea..... but depending on the weather conditions pilots leave the line in 50m - 120m anyway...!!!
so why to reduce the line length..? already some pilots use shorter lines to get faster launches in certain conditions ( good air in fly-off...)...

"....Limiting launch altitude reduces also the need for going to 20/40/60/80 cm separation in landing...."
#yes it is a thermal competition and no landing comp... ;-) and it would be nice to decide it in the air... but due to better model and pilot performance you need to bring in a difference into the scores and only with flying time it is not possible ... I learned from many many competions that there is still a need for seperating scores in landing ...sorry but this is the reality in f3j.......!!

##What about throwing away the discard round....? ???? I think this would help a lot for seperation in scores...!


greeting Stefan......

[Daryl Perkins]

Thanks everyone for your comments, and opinions. It seems obvious that human resources are an issue to run a true F3J event, well, at all but the largest of contests. And it's probably an issue at large contests too, as I'm certain competitors are scrambling for the most athletic towers. It's horsepower wars all over again. With field boundaries, side by side launch issues, I don't know what the answers are. I'm just asking questions.

What do you guys see as the future for F3J? What do you like about F3J? What do you dislike about it? Is F3J gaining popularity in your country in its current format? This is just a discussion, there is no right or wrong answer.

I realize this is a very controversial issue, and many have very strong opinions. I'm not trying to change anything. I have no power to do so. I'm really just curious.

Thanks in advance

dp

[gliding Oz]

Hi Stefan,
When we fly in Australia, we are only allowed two winches per team and over the pass two years this has worked well. Line changes do take a little longer but have always found in F3J and F3J on winches, we the pilots play it a little safer (run slightly heavier lines) than we do in TD/F3B as any line breaks can kill you at a comp. Even at the WC fly offs we lauched Dave and Carl on tested heavier lines for that safety factor.
The teams also stay in the same lane during the day comp which if fine if there are only 5-6 teams but yes would not work if there are 15 lanes, unless the whinch lane draw became like it is in F3B, on a daily roster.

Daryl,
I like the format of F3J alot as I find its more of a thermal flying comp. I dislike (yes I will say I have done it in the pass before I knew better) people sand bagging at a TD comp, waiting for the pilots in the air to find some air and then launching there F3B models to the moon and covering the lower planes. F3J format makes everyone fly the best they can with the air that they can find (no sand bagging!!).
I hope its here to stay and if enough people get behind it, it could/should replace the T/D comps in Australia.

Cheers
Thomas

[jirvin_4505]

..snip..
people sand bagging at a TD comp, waiting for the pilots in the air to find some air and then launching there F3B models to the moon and covering the lower planes. F3J format makes everyone fly the best they can with the air that they can find (no sand bagging!!).
I hope its here to stay and if enough people get behind it, it could/should replace the T/D comps in Australia.

Cheers
Thomas

Hi Thomas
Been contemplating waht it would take to have winches in F3j rather than normal Aussi TD comp. Only way I can think of to deal with our typical 1-2m winch spacing is to have a staggered start.

Staggered pilot is responsible for own working time and to deal with the sandbagging your launch order is generated randomly by the scoring program. Or stagger those that are launching next to each other - which is how we handle the situation in TD.

Not sure of appropriate stagger time - safety considerations here!

Cheers Jeff

[wixy3]

Hi Daryl /Stefan/all, in Uk we have average up to 50 pilots ,max 5 in a team .ie 10 teams
with 15 metre spacing whenever possible .flight line 150mtrs max .Most teams would use 3 winches though there is currently no restriction on more .just make sure each team has their winches close together.
Each slot has 10 pilots 5 slots per round and weather permitting 5 rounds and 2 flyoff rounds.Using winches its possible to reduce preparation time to 4 mins so each slot takes 14 minutes x 5 slots .1hour 10 minutes x 5 rounds just under 6hours total ,add the fly off and you get about 7 hours uk pilots seem happy with this set up as everyone gets a reasonable amount of stick time.The 15 mtr spacing helps reduce
mass launch problems and reflights.I use a laptop timing programme if all goes well I Start it at 10 am and it runs on auto through out the comp.
The only down side is fixed winch position on the day .A 150mtr flight line can make a difference at some flying sites .For this reason I think at world and european championships 2 man tows and position changes must stay.
Its difficult to explain what i like about f3j ,maybe its the challenge every comp is different. deffinately the friendship on the flight line we are all rivals but also good friends. Wixy.

[mithrandir]

I think the Europeans have it right, they get 100+ at a 2-day Euro tour event in F3J and about that in F3B and 40+ in some F3F. They also hold these events about every month in the summer. Plus they have a great junior pilot system.

The USA TD comps are dying. Maybe it's time to take our 3.7 meter models and fly longer than 3 minutes at 8:00am! What will it take to get either entries up or make the US comps something worth attending? The social aspect will ALWAYS be there, just look at how much fun the Europeans have at their comps. We can do it better.

Want more people to attend huh???
Well... put a big motor on the front that burns a lot of Nitro and makes noise!!!!
(At least that works for Americans!)

Seriously... I have been attending 3D'ish Fun-Fly's/Fly-In's for the past several years... it is getting bigger... more large 40% scale aerobatics and even profiles and electrics... from foamies to forties... the 3D thing is growing!! Kind of consistent with the "Extreme" nature of americans...

Vids from an event I CD'd in Vegas a couple months ago....

http://www.rcmodelaviator.com/Videos/LVTD07.wmv

TeamFlyingCirkusTDIII.wmv (http://74.53.104.34/guestftp/throwdown2007Vids/tdIIIPartOne.wmv)

We are planning next years event now...... and will likely have noon demo times... how about a little F3? demo from you guys.. maybe a hand tow or a speed run????

[mithrandir]

Maybe the answer is to get rid of all the complexity of launchers and winches and change over to motor gliders... like each competitor is limited to say... 500 watts and one 15 second motor run per round... (Or something similar)
a lot of problems are eliminated when you just need a lot less acreage to hold an event... (And fewer people to support each competitor) Even a barometrically activated switch to shut down motor at say... 900 feet....



Thanks everyone for your comments, and opinions. It seems obvious that human resources are an issue to run a true F3J event, well, at all but the largest of contests. And it's probably an issue at large contests too, as I'm certain competitors are scrambling for the most athletic towers. It's horsepower wars all over again. With field boundaries, side by side launch issues, I don't know what the answers are. I'm just asking questions.

What do you guys see as the future for F3J? What do you like about F3J? What do you dislike about it? Is F3J gaining popularity in your country in its current format? This is just a discussion, there is no right or wrong answer.

I realize this is a very controversial issue, and many have very strong opinions. I'm not trying to change anything. I have no power to do so. I'm really just curious.

Thanks in advance

dp

[Chad Sullivan]

Motors belong on the ground.;)
I think it's cool to hear what the rest of the world is doing. And I'm jelous that they are flying F3J. MoM is GREAT!! F3J is all about the things Americans love. Fast passed, competitive, and really fraken expensive. But good competition comes from more than people showing up. We don't have many of the things I see driving F3J in the rest of the world.
We lack manufactures. Hats off to Maple Leaf Designs for being as far as I know the only manufacturer of Molded Competition class Sailplanes in the US. Kennedy does not count. I hear DP is going for it. WTG!! We have lots of talented Composite builders here in the US. We need guys like Skip miller and Berry Kennedy , Bob from Soaring USA to spend their money here in the US to help build up our own manufacturing resources. As our US$ continues to fall against foreign currency the prices for competitive ships will only go up. Giving even more reason for people to want to stay away from really competitive flying. Manufacturers help build competitive spirit. Look at Hand Launch.

F3B Winches are the way to go I think as far as spreading the F3J ideals. But again most built here are low production high cost. Look at the pictures on some of the foreign F3J clubs sites. 5 lanes = 10 winches. Here in the US that's probably going to set your club back 12-13 thousand dollars. Or each participating team 2000-2400$. And if this was to catch on, soon we would all be scrambling over the few there probably are in the US that come up for sale. Used at 1200$. It's bad enough we have to wait and scramble for sailplanes.
I don't see having the excitement and turn out for this until we catch up in the manufacturing area.
Why I think US TD is boring and needs to be fixed.
I was as the SWC, I had not been there 20 minutes on Friday before I heard what the final results where going to be. And the guy was right ( think he had 2-5th mixed up a bit!!) Not to take anything from DP. He out flew 98% of the field. Hands down. But how can you learn from competing against the man if you never fly against him. I had the chance at one point to get on a winch, and in the air right behind DP only one pilot in front of me stood in the way. That pilot was already hooked up and cleared. He saw DP hooking up and stalled. Dp came off the winch and headed the opposite way that everyone else did. The two old farts in front of me got scared and sand bagged as hard as they could at this point they had been cleared for at least 45 seconds. By then DP was way out over the farm, and there was no way I was going to get out to him to learn why he was out there. If it had been an F3J type I would get my chance to find out. Maybe not that round, but it would have happened. It's not that TD is not a competition there just is no way to be competitive on a Human against Human level.
I'm adding my favorite SWC picture. I expected him to be taller. LOL
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2845/cleanupfeb4th042ue2.th.jpg (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cleanupfeb4th042ue2.jpg)

[FLY F3B]

OK so my 2 cents on the J subject would be to ask a stupid question....Why not standardize the launch so that there is no available advantage? F3B went through this evolution, and in my opinion it (the standardization of winches) is the biggest and best things about the comp. It levels the playing field. With no power advantage, piloting and task strategies become significantly more important...

I know that this is not where J has its roots, but to me at least it would make the idea of a 10 to 12 pilot man on man within a flight window event very interesting if the launch power available to each pilot was the same...

Mike

[D_Ryan]

Chad wrote: "Look at the pictures on some of the foreign F3J clubs sites. 5 lanes = 10 winches. Here in the US that's probably going to set your club back 12-13 thousand dollars. Or each participating team 2000-2400$."

I don't believe that most European clubs have club winches. For whatever reason, the predominant mindset seems to be that a winch is an integral part of a pilots "gear", and most own there own winch. It's been brought up before; instead of having 3 moldies in a hanger, they reduce the count by one, and use the resulting saved funds to purchase a FAI spec winch instead.

It is interesting that there are several manufacturer's of "AMA" winches or winch kits here in the US based around the Ford starter motor, but no "regular" manufacturer of FAI-legal winches (that I am aware of). Is this because of the lack of interest in the FAI event(s) e.g. F3B, or is it simply the result of the availability of the Ford motor...? Chicken and the egg scenario.

r/
Dave

[F3X]

Chad wrote: "Look at the pictures on some of the foreign F3J clubs sites. 5 lanes = 10 winches. Here in the US that's probably going to set your club back 12-13 thousand dollars. Or each participating team 2000-2400$."

I don't believe that most European clubs have club winches. For whatever reason, the predominant mindset seems to be that a winch is an integral part of a pilots "gear", and most own there own winch. It's been brought up before; instead of having 3 moldies in a hanger, they reduce the count by one, and use the resulting saved funds to purchase a FAI spec winch instead.

It is interesting that there are several manufacturer's of "AMA" winches or winch kits here in the US based around the Ford starter motor, but no "regular" manufacturer of FAI-legal winches (that I am aware of). Is this because of the lack of interest in the FAI event(s) e.g. F3B, or is it simply the result of the availability of the Ford motor...? Chicken and the egg scenario.
r/
Dave

You’re right. In the EU winches are supplied by the pilot. This makes complete sense, the pilot is responsible to shag the line, buy the line and maintain the line. What’s wrong with that? Also they team up and share equipment and costs. Again it sounds like a better way. Now the contest organizers can run any format they want and the field help is already there! This would eliminate 99% of the reasons we can’t fly man on man in the USA. And eliminate any delays we normally see at a come in the USA. No large amount of field help is required by the hosting club, they have enough to do scoring and running the comp. Sure just buy 1 less model and you pay for your winch. Btw, its really HARD to crash the winch so it should outlast many, many models :D

As far as the cost of models...well it’s all the falling dollar. Believe me I deal with this all the time. New Zenith's have gone up only about 100-150E since I started selling them and this is cheap considering the rise in material costs the past few years but the Euro:USD went from .75 to 1.4. This drives the cost.

Roll your own. Again in the USA many have lost the ability to build (sorry but true) and the level of quality we can buy is above 98% of the building skills in the USA. Again it can be fixed. Here is a photo of my friends F3J ship he built in his basement. You can too if you try. Are you interested in trying? If so I have a plan. How about trying what Martin Weberschock is doing in Germany? He hosts classes on building molds and models. You can rent the masters and make your own mold set. Then make your own models the way you want it. This is my business; I can easily do the same here. I wonder if its time to start in the US now????

[Lubos Pazderka]

Hi boys!We have winches from Mr.Ober(Germany).Winch here is standard for each pilot(usually every pilot have two).You can visit Mr.Ober web site for details http://www.oberflugmodellbau.de/26601.html

Lubos

[glderguy]

What is your time worth? Id rather just pay the money.

[F3X]

What is your time worth? Id rather just pay the money.

"Therein Lies the Rub"

[Tuomo]

I don't believe that most European clubs have club winches. For whatever reason, the predominant mindset seems to be that a winch is an integral part of a pilots "gear", and most own there own winch. It's been brought up before; instead of having 3 moldies in a hanger, they reduce the count by one, and use the resulting saved funds to purchase a FAI spec winch instead.


Winch investmenst is not that big. Yes F3B winch costs about the as one moldie but it will last a long time.

Selecting right line and drum diamater is important part on launch technique. Sharing winches is little difficult unless you have similar plane as your friends have.

We do not have formal teams in our national J-contest. In stead we try to co-operate as well as possible. If a guy having only one winch wants to make reflight he can usally borrow his friends or helpers winch - perhaps with less than ideal line and drum diameter. We also have some newcomers flying their first season. They have not yet bought their own winches. Borrowing a winch for them is not a problem in a quite relaxed national competitions.


New ideas of running a F3J competition. It would be fun to fly same kind of tasks as used in F3K. Maybe an idea to test in next club contest?

[F3X]

I could sell F3B winches built for about....750.00 USD maybe a little better but I would need 50 pre orders to do so. You just can't get the cost down on machining without some decent numbers.

Would anyone be interested?

[roydor]

I bought a winch from Ober, really nice guy.

Since I was pressed for cash I bought the "Electrical winch normal device EW3" this is the older winch design which has the same motor as the new design without the folding stand, clam shells and resistor.
I added a resistor myself and got a great value for a strong reliable winch that's F3B legal for under 600 euro. Used my old turn around other launch equipment.

[dhauch]

I could sell F3B winches built for about....750.00 USD maybe a little better but I would need 50 pre orders to do so. You just can't get the cost down on machining without some decent numbers.
Would anyone be interested?

remember Tom, you have alot of guys gone to the Nats. so you might not get their response for a while.

great offer.

dh

[FLY F3B]

I am interested, but it depends on the design of the winch. One like Ober's would be nice.

[F3X]

I am interested, but it depends on the design of the winch. One like Ober's would be nice.

I will send a few drawings.

[Kai@UCSB]

I will send a few drawings.

Nice... Looking forward to see it.

-Kai (28)

[shoe]

...You can too if you try. Are you interested in trying? If so I have a plan. How about trying what Martin Weberschock is doing in Germany? He hosts classes on building molds and models. You can rent the masters and make your own mold set. Then make your own models the way you want it. This is my business; I can easily do the same here. I wonder if its time to start in the US now????


I have often wondered why this hasn't caught on in the states and would love to see something like this started.

[Chad Sullivan]

Tom,
I am interested in those plans. And any molds you can get made over there and bring here. Roll your own, put me first on the list. I think I can get inside that 2%. I think the whole leasing of molds is a good idea. I think leasing the master is better. Then at least the builder could get a couple molds out of the deal to build back up ships latter. But I think I would go for it in either format. DO IT!!! Please.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

If F3J goes to winches then count me in! I flew F3J at the 1999 Nats(9th place)and loved it! The problem is to practice it....I can't find any one local that would willingly tow for me so I didn't pursue F3J any further. If winches are accepted you will see me again.

[glderguy]

I think Chad could probably produce some pretty fine stuff.
Walter

[Chad Sullivan]

thnks Walter, appreciated.

[FLY F3B]

looking forward to seeing them Tom...

Mike

[djklein21]

Me too, I have been checking out Obers winch online, very nice

[Daryl Perkins]

It appears as if the writing is on the wall for F3J. I don't know how long it may take, but it seems certain that it will evolve into a winch contest. I personally think that would be best. I've never been quite sure why we allow a soaring contest to be driven by the method of getting the models into the air. The rules regulating winch power are already in effect for F3B, and have greatly leveled the playing field, and eliminated the winch wars of old.

I hear people complaining about the cost of FAI style winches. For our non-US readers, these appear to be guys here in the states, who are used to flying off club supplied winches, and have never stepped up to own their own equipment (and probably never will).

My response to them:

FAI isn't for everybody. But for an FAI aspirant, who more than likely has well over 10K worth of models in his garage, the one time purchase of a winch that will likely last 10-15 years, is a small price to pay to play.

Tom, I do hope you get enough commitments to get some winches done. Mine is over 15 years old, and could use some TLC, or probably even better... replacement.

Thanks for all your opinions!!! I'm still interested in hearing from the rest of you.

dp

[F3X]

Winches:
Do you guys perfer:
A. End bearing.
B. No outside end bearing.
C. Clam shells.
D. Remove end plate and slide on core.
D. Different drums. i.e. Quick change drum.

The Ober winches use no end bearing, just a drum out in space. It works. All the support is inside the motor/bearing/brake housing. It makes the overall length of winch longer.

[djklein21]

This is why I was looking at the EW3 not the 4

[FLY F3B]

Tom,

I prefer supported drum, so yes - end bearing. Clam shells work great as long as they are not machined aluminum, and that there is enough room for thermal expansion, but no so much room that line gets caught between the clam shell and the drum end plate. Adjustable resistors are an absolute necessity. They must be very adjustable. An example is a conductor run that can be added to or reduced. Like a design that uses 4 - 1/8" dia. conductors, and in case a battery with extremely low internal resistance is used, the number of conductors can be reduced to provide more resistance. Also, of course the connection point needs to be able to slide along the conductors to fine tune the resistance. Resistor bars on the battery help too. Finally, there is a material that is best to use for the resistor because it does not very in resistance with increased heat....

Hows that for input ;-)

Mike

[FLY F3B]

...but I don't know what that material is.

Sorry.

[GoFaster]

I think Manganin alloy is one of them

- Felix

[D_Ryan]

Mike, Tom;

I posted previously to this forum about the theory behind Kanthal resistors using the multiple pins as seen on the Hollenbeck and Ober winches.

Dennis Phelan and Mike Lachowski weighed in and offered up Manganin and Constantin as the materials of choice, though did mention that they are pricey...

r/
Dave

[D_Ryan]

Tom;

No idea what the cost to ship may be, but it appears readily available resistance "rods" as typically used in the Kanthal arrays are available here:

http://www.eripm.be/detail.php?langue=fr&oneid=41&catinit=5

r/
Dave Stack

[F3X]

Tom;

No idea what the cost to ship may be, but it appears readily available resistance "rods" as typically used in the Kanthal arrays are available here:

http://www.eripm.be/detail.php?langue=fr&oneid=41&catinit=5

r/
Dave Stack

Interesting web site. I will email him for some costs. Thanks.

[mithrandir]

Ummmm.. just so you guys have a perspective....

My Compy SX cost $3000.00 delivered.
I have $1000.00 of servos....
I have $2000.00 of Muffler, Spinner, Prop and DA150.
I have $500.00 of Receivers and $200.00 of Duralite Batts and regs....

($750.00 for a decent FAI Legal winch is CHEAP!!!!...especially since they don't wear out!.. DP's is 15 years old right!?!? lol)

My point is... if you wanna play with the big boys... you are simply gonna have to pay the cash!!!

I am not aware of any $3000.00 RC Sailplane airframes... most top notch models seem to be the 2K range... and let me assure you... the quality and the amount of work to build a world class F3J or F3B model far exceeds what goes into a Composite-Arf Super Extra!!! (The extra uses more materials.. but glass and epoxy is cheap)
The equipment needed is not Harbour Freight crap.... it is gonna cost money... either learn to make it yourself or buy it.

F3B and F3J are high technology genres of modeling... a stick'n'tissue gentle lady is not gonna cut it!!!

Is cost really the inhibitor of popularity of the F3B/J?

[Jurgen]

I got my winch second hand from former F3B participant.
It got 2 variable resistors:
- one with rods for bringing the winch into spec, provided by manufacturer Hollenbeck;
- one with a plate (from Eripm) for bringing the battery into spec.
RC greets, Jurgen.

[Tuomo]

I got my winch second hand from former F3B participant.
It got 2 variable resistors:
- one with rods for bringing the winch into spec, provided by manufacturer Hollenbeck;
- one with a plate (from Eripm) for bringing the battery into spec.


To be more precise, battery resistor plate is used to equalize all batteries. Total system is then adjusted with winch resistor.

It is not very important to have battery precisely in specs because winch and battery is measured as a system.

[Silent-AV8R]

F3B and F3J are high technology genres of modeling... a stick'n'tissue gentle lady is not gonna cut it!!!


Which raises the question (again), does anyone have a link to the page showing how to modify my Skeeter to take a full pedal F3B launch?? I like my Skeeter and think it would be a great competition plane if only I could get a better launch. :D

[Tuomo]

Is cost really the inhibitor of popularity of the F3B/J?

F3J is one of the cheapest FAI-classes. And surely the most sunday-flyer-friendly ;)

[Wing-span]

Flown correctly there is no reason to be uncompetative with a RES model with balsa wings and spruce spars. You may notice that alot of pilots even at the national level competitions fail to fly out the 10minute slots (normally me). This means that you can launch as fast as your chosen aircraft will let you and still be in with a chance of doing well if there is lift about.

'Sunday-flyers' are made to feel welcome at the contests that I have attended. They should not be freightened off by the sight of the 'higher' performance models as I'm sure the 'higher' performance pilots will normally win the day regardless of the model. Getting people into the competiotions is key. All should be welcome, as long as the model they fly fits in with the basic criteria.

Personally I would fly with my old S2G Applause (2.3m T'tailed sloper). I would still have just as much fun and if the conditions were right? well who knows....

If you have got a glider screw a hook into it and fly some F3J. You might get the bug.

[Silent-AV8R]

Flown correctly there is no reason to be uncompetative with a RES model with balsa wings and spruce spars.

My Skeeter doesn't have spoilers :(

[FLY F3B]

Regarding the resistors that Jurgen shows: yes, like those. Only in Switzerland the mercedes batteries that the organisers provided had an extremely low internal resistance, and even when a long resistor bar was added to the battery we were still not able to get enough adjustment on the 4 conductor winch resistor system. We needed to take out one of the conductors!!! Only then were we able to get above the system's minimum resistance of 23mohms...

So, the winch side resistor must have even more adjustability, and I suggest at least one removeable conductor on the sliding resistor array.

Mike

[Tuomo]

Flown correctly there is no reason to be uncompetative with a RES model with balsa wings and spruce spars. You may notice that alot of pilots even at the national level competitions fail to fly out the 10minute slots (normally me). This means that you can launch as fast as your chosen aircraft will let you and still be in with a chance of doing well if there is lift about.

Well, what is competitive?

Lets talk about Ava. It launches little slow and does not zoom very well. Sturcture is bearly strong enough for good launch in moderate conditions. It does not penetrate well. In windy weather you are in serious trouble with it. Working small thermals is maybe little more easy than with a full house ship, but in landings RES configuration has no benefits. And remember to install the ballast tube!

Verdict: Ava is easy to fly but participating F3J competition is more easy with a regular J-moldie?

Still I would not hesitate flying Ava in F3J competition if it was my only plane. And I also stick to my opinion that among FAI classes F3J is most accessible for the sunday-flyer. National competition coming next weekend :)

BTW

Personally I would fly with my old S2G Applause (2.3m T'tailed sloper). I would still have just as much fun and if the conditions were right? well who knows....

It was very windy in Nordic Championships in Denmark. Some say gust were close to 20m/s, personally I measured "only" 15m/s :p Older (and the very new) F3B ships did well there. In one flight I got beaten by 10 years+ old T-tail Cobra.