YAE8B (Yet Another ECO 8 Build)

[Dogwoodtheone]

Decided it was time to start this;

First a little background: I purchased my ECO 8 in 2002, My first helicopter, seem to be the best Electric available at the time.

After getting a complete setup from hobby-lobby (4 ch radio) I started assembling it, and cruising the web for info - didn't take long to discover the mCCPM wasn't going to be to great, decided to build it as eCCPM and get a good heli radio.... well shortly after that decision I got laid off :(

Put the ECO away in the garage and worked on paying the bills...

Fast forward 5 years, watching myth busters, the episode where they try and bust a heli myth. Watched as they trashed the HB but it kept bouncing back.
Got one, decided I liked flying heli's and it was time to get the ECO going.

I finally ordered a DX-7 last week and should have it for this weekend.

While flying my HB I looked thru the micro section and ran across Art Newland's "piccolo flies" thread - lots of good reading, he had made a brushless motor for his ECO and that inspired me to do the same.

It's a quad 22.7 GB stator stack with 9t Delta, six pole just over 2000 Kv
pulling 1450 RPM's just under full throttle with a 15 tooth pinion

So far I've added the Auto rotation gear, swapped the stock screws for some good socket heads, balanced the head and tail, moved the TR servo tot he boom,and added the wide landing gear.

I have a used alloy head that I will install after I get some flight time and get a 120 degree swash (if anyone has one laying around and wants to sell it.....)

[Kosmic]

Great job on the motor.

Are you sure it 2000KV ? head speed is quite low if you use a 3S lipo and a 15t pinion.

Kos

[Greybird]

Dogwood, I flew mine stock for a long time. It does pretty well with no upgrades. I would double up on the tail bearings though.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Great job on the motor.

Are you sure it 2000KV ? head speed is quite low if you use a 3S lipo and a 15t pinion.

Kos

Thanks Kos

Using a Mototron esc and it software to get the Kv, measured the RPM's with a meter, also did the Calc's and they put it around 1500 RPM

I believe it did
come out a bit over 2000Kv

-Dog

[Dogwoodtheone]

Dogwood, I flew mine stock for a long time. It does pretty well with no upgrades. I would double up on the tail bearings though.

Grey, did you go with thrust bearings or just double up on the radials?

-Dog

[Greybird]

Just double the radials. Use a hardened bolt and tighten to the shaft.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Do you remember how long of a screw you used?

[Greybird]

12mm and grind to fit.

[Dogwoodtheone]

12mm and grind to fit.

thanks

[Dogwoodtheone]

Got my Radio today :D

[Dogwoodtheone]

Got the electronics places, time to start routing the wires :)
The gyro was part of the kit I bought 5 years ago, hope to replace it in the near future.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Made a Battery tray for my liPo's, lhs didn't have any carbon sheets, so I went with birch ply, now if I could only find that strip of self adhesive Velcro I have laying around somewhere .............. :rolleyes:

[Gadget01]

Ball links work very well to attach the tray to the frame:


http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSCN0327a.jpg

[Dogwoodtheone]

Ball links work very well to attach the tray to the frame:


http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSCN0327a.jpg
Yes they do, thats how I mounted mine (thanks for the idea)
This picture shows that a bit clearer, I've almost finished routing my wires, just need to do the TR,Gyro wires

[Dogwoodtheone]

Got a few more parts for the ECO using the money I got from selling the servos that came with the DX-7
will be putting the tail boom support on right away, the alum frame plate will have to wait as I want to get some air time in. :cool:

Spent the best part of sunday and monday evening figuring out the DX-7 programming - :confused:

[Spidious]

For sure put on the boom support first !
I kept bending mine by landing to hard...

[Dogwoodtheone]

For sure put on the boom support first !
I kept bending mine by landing to hard...


Glad to hear its money well spent :)

[Dogwoodtheone]

its a bit windy here for trying to fly.... especially a new Heli...

But I did take her out front and spin her up, I had change the CC to Gov mode, not sure I did it right as it seem to be running at 100%, I was getting a head speed reading of 1530 RPM and that was with a couple of degrees of negative pitch to keep her on the ground :eek:

ran it for 30 seconds or so, after it stopped I checked the motor - way too hot.
Couldn't find my temp gauge.

Ran it again but for not as long after I found my gauge - 120 degrees!!! :eek: :(

I'm planning on putting a duct fan prop on top to blow cooling air thru it but I really need to try and get it to run cooler without it as well

[Dogwoodtheone]

well I broke down and bought a robart pitch gauge as I discovered that I was in fact running a good bit more neg. pitch than I thought and was trying to drive the ECO into the ground :( :mad: crappy Ikarus pitch gauge.

once I unloaded the rotor the head speed shot up to 1600 RPM.

learned some interesting things about the CC GOV mode, hope to try them out this weekend....

want to bring the motor temp down a bit as well as the head speed

put the fan blades on the motor and it did help keep the temps down :cool:

[Dogwoodtheone]

think I will be taking the horizontal fin off as the heli is now rather tail heavy

could slide the battery farther forward but I really rather not as then it wouldn't have as much support as I think it should

[Gadget01]

I use a 4-cell nicad rx pack. I have it mounted on the nose just under my main pack and it helps with the CG....

You could also get a higher capacity main pack. What pack are you using now?

[Dogwoodtheone]

hmm, rx battery pack is a good idea.... have to look into that one


currently using a 3s 3850 mAh pack

[Spidious]

I have a 4 cell 2000 mAH rx battery to balance mine out. Right in front of the motor..

[oded mazor]

I always say that the Eco really need a heavy motor to balance the CG. instead of putting some dead weight in the fromt, I'd rather put a heavier motor which is usually more efficient and tolerate heat better.

just a little side note...

[Dogwoodtheone]

I always say that the Eco really need a heavy motor to balance the CG. instead of putting some dead weight in the fromt, I'd rather put a heavier motor which is usually more efficient and tolerate heat better.

just a little side note...

excellent point, I may be re-making my motor as the base is a bit narrow, can't take advantage of the full adjust-ability, really limits what pinions I can run. :(

Plus I wouldn't mind adding a bearing to the lower portion of the can, got a few Ideas on how to do that.

as well as wider I'll make the base a bit thicker, more surface area and mass for cooling.

[Dogwoodtheone]

After reading Gadgets glowing opinion of the Ikarus landing gear I figured I better brace it before it breaks, took an old trick I used on my FP heli.

ran some carbon tube between the landing gear legs, held in place with some Titanium bolts and JB weld :D

( I priced out doing the gadget landing gear and decided I'll make my own CF gear before spending that kind of cash)

need to clean some of the extra JB off :o

[Dogwoodtheone]

well Greybird let the cat out of the bag over in spidious's thread.

seems I lucked into a good stash of ECO bits....


I'll post some pictures and probably start the transformation of my ECO when I get them.

Unfortunately it will be a couple of week as they are coming from Malaysia via England :eek:

[Greybird]

Sorry Dude... Let's see some before pictures.

[Dogwoodtheone]

alright here you go Greybird, got some picture of the ECO as she stands right now.

I currently have waiting to go on: Alum red head, alum base motor mount, I have amongst other things coming from bob, an Alum swash and Carbon frame.

I will probably be ordering some alum 120 degree ccpm servo mounts soon as well as some alum grip arms and mixing arms

I also have some carbon tail fins as well as a carbon tail boom, the boom and fins probably won't go on for a bit, not till I'm sure I can get her off the ground and back again without any major pilot induced control issues :o

she currently has auto-rotation gear, CF tail servo mount, CF tail control rod, CF tail boom supports

though I kinda dread taking her apart and putting her back together
but it will be a good way to get re-familiar with her and gain some good knowledge.

[Gadget01]

That battery pack looks awfully light up there.

[Dogwoodtheone]

3850 mAh 3s, balances good so far, though I am thinking of going with a receiver pack, will the balance help a bit

we'll see when I start the upgrade process :cool:

[Dogwoodtheone]

made one of these today : http://www.dream-models.com/eco/faq/17mm%20jig.html

only not as nicely :o

should help get the setup going in the right direction

[Spidious]

Basically the same principle as my rubber

[Dogwoodtheone]

yep same thing, different material :D

[Dogwoodtheone]

Ordered some parts from CME friday, getting the 120 servo mounts, some new tail belts and hub o-rings, also ordered the thrust bearing kit.

Thought it said everything was in stock when i placed the order, but now its showing the thrust bearing kit as out-of-stock :(

I've been looking at their prices and always though that FX was cheaper, but they had the servo mounts and FX didn't, well found out you don't see the real sale price until you add it to the cart, on average knock another couple of bucks off the listed price :cool:

[Dogwoodtheone]

Started the re-design of my ECO motor, needed a wider base, so I decided to add a couple more features as well. :cool:

Adding a 17x26x5mm bearing on the base as a lower bell support, also adding back the cooling holes, which means the base is going to be a bit taller, tricky bit is I want to use the current can.... :rolleyes:

so far the measurements seem to indicate that it is do able

[Dogwoodtheone]

My CME order shipped today :D :D

had them ship priority mail, should have it wednesday, thursday at the latest :cool:

speaking of orders, on 7/4 I ordered a pitch gauge from SouthEastRC, they shipped on 7/5 via Fedex ground, which took 7 days to get from there to here!!! :mad:

so 2 days before my order is scheduled to be delivered I get a phone call from them saying the order shipping labels had been swapped and that my order had been shipped to someone else and to refuse the order.

I asked them to ship the replacement via priority mail, well I still don't have my pitch gauge so I'm guessing the sent it the same Hoover way and I wont get it till later this week :mad:

saved maybe 5 buck, lost 2 weeks, will not be using them again. :( :mad:

[Dogwoodtheone]

Got a nice welcome home from the mailbox :D

found my order from CME and Boca, got some 120 deg. servo mounts as well as thrust bearings and a couple of other little parts :cool:

and from Boca I got the bearing to do my new motor base

hmm boca is in Florida, I ordered on th 15th, today is the 18th, 3 days.....

I still have not gotten the pitch gauge I ordered from southeastrc on the 4th ! :mad: :mad: :censored: :censored:

not a frickin word from them... guess I'm going to have to call them let them know what I think of their customer "service"

the shipping on the bearing was free, southeastrc charged me $8. :mad: :mad:

[Dogwoodtheone]

decided to work on the red head while I wait for my other parts to get here from Jungle Bob.

going to pull it apart, clean it up and install new rubber o-rings and thrust bearings :)

the flimsy blade grip arms are going into a bag marked "do not use except in an emergency" :D

Got some stout aluminum grip arms on order. :)

[Dogwoodtheone]

one of the first things I want to do is get the mixing arm connection from the flybar to be closer to 90 deg for freer movement

that nasty angle keeps if from moving as freely as i should

[Gadget01]

Rotate the flybar carrier so the linkage connects on the other side. This is the "flipped" mixer arm setup, so you'll have considerably more pitch range. This arrangement is the most bind-free way I could figure out:

http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSC05370.JPG

[Dogwoodtheone]

Cool thanks Gadget.

will do that :D

[kitfoxdrvr]

G01, you gotta quit posting pics of your Eco, I can't stop drooling over those ball joints!

BTW, have you tried any of the other holes in the grip arms? You are in the same hole as I am using (the same lever arm as single hole on the cheap stamped arm), and I was thinking of trying the middle one to see what happens.

Sorry for butting in, DW.

Steve

[Dogwoodtheone]

update on the SouthEastRC saga,

called them to see where my pitch gauge was, turns out they haven't even shipped the replacement yet!!!!! :censored:

seems they shipped the only one they had to the wrong person and he hasn't shipped it back yet! :mad:

they finally got around to ordering more but they haven't come in yet.

they are promising to ship at least 2nd day, the shipper is going to talk to the owner and see if she can ship over night.

they do have the best price on that gauge, but come on this is getting really old :censored:

[Dogwoodtheone]

NP Kit, gadgets bird is a beautiful piece of machinery

[Gadget01]

G01, you gotta quit posting pics of your Eco, I can't stop drooling over those ball joints!

You know you want some! Now that they are broken in (they were kinda stiff when new) there is very little resistance- almost as if they were ball bearings, yet there is absolutely no slop.

BTW, have you tried any of the other holes in the grip arms?

As best as I can figure out, the different holes on the blade grip arms exist only to accomodate different mixing lever arrangements - switching from one hole to another only changes the linkage alignment.

The goal of my arrangement is equal positive and negative pitch range and get as much overall range as possible.


Dogwood.... sometimes paying a couple $ more for the same part to a known source of good service is worth it.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Dogwood.... sometimes paying a couple $ more for the same part to a known source of good service is worth it.

always good advice, but I do like to try new shops once in awhile, sometime you find a good one, others..........


I try to send as much of my RC money FX's way, despite the fact that I have to pay taxes (they are just 45 minutes up the road from where I live) because the service is so good... same goes for Todd's

but neither they or any of the others I like to frequent had the pitch gauge I wanted... tower did, but I like to help the little guy when I can

[Spidious]

gadget need to make up those rod assembly's and sell them !

[Dogwoodtheone]

I'm hoping to get some of those ball links from him someday :cool:

got a couple ideas on replacement linkage, details to follow once they're tried :p

[Dogwoodtheone]

OK, how do you take these red heads apart?

the nut on the end of he spindle is waaaayyy down there, most of my sockets are way to big to get in there

any hints?

[Gadget01]

most of my sockets are way to big to get in there

Then you should be good to go if only "most" of your sockets are too big. :D

[Greybird]

...

[Spidious]

I use nut drivers on my plastic ones. Maybe they will work on the aluminum ones ?

[kitfoxdrvr]

I have a set of the long Craftsman 1/4" sockets and a nut driver handle that will barely fit ( you have to squeeze them in there!), but work. You can actually hold one nut with NN plier and use one nut driver, so you don't need to buy two sets. It took me a long time to figure this one out too!!!

[Dogwoodtheone]

thanks for the input guys, Kit the one that i can get in there is a long 1/4" craftsman :D

I'll have to make a trip to orchards this Saturday and see if I can't find something to use on the other side

(tried the NN pliers, they just slip and are tearing up the nut, think they're lock-tighted in)

[Gadget01]

You might try giving that nut some heat with a soldering iron before you try turning it.

[kitfoxdrvr]

(tried the NN pliers, they just slip and are tearing up the nut, think they're lock-tighted in)

Ouch, all the ones I have had are nyloc nuts; I would hate to think what loktite would do to those!

[Dogwoodtheone]

You might try giving that nut some heat with a soldering iron before you try turning it.

Soldering Iron, good idea, I'll give that a try tonight

the nut looks like the ones that come with the thrust bearing kit, I might have bought a kit I didn't need :rolleyes:

[Dogwoodtheone]

yep, had a set of thrust bearings already installed, guess I now have a "backup"
set :rolleyes:

wandered down to osh this morning and picked up one of those multi tip screw drivers (thanks greybird) and it worked beautifully :)

pulled the head apart, made sure everything was straight and clean and put it bad together

[Dogwoodtheone]

re-did my ECO motor this weekend, made it a bit more robust and bling'er as well :D

more picture can be found here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717114#post7849853

[Gadget01]

yep, had a set of thrust bearings already installed, guess I now have a "backup"
set :rolleyes:

I might consider taking your new thrust bearing set off your hands. I'm building up the Eco from my original kit and that heli "needs" them.

[Spidious]

I can't believe he didn't tell me about them !

[Greybird]

It looks like CME Hobbies is getting out of the Eco business. The thrust bearings they had came with T-nuts. I don't know how you could add thrust bearings without the T-nuts on the Eco.

[Gadget01]

CME didn't invent T-nuts and I seriously doubt they machine them in-house. Boca and other suppliers have thrust bearings that would work just fine. It's entirely plausible to do thrust bearings and avoid CME completely.

I purchased quite a few of my Eco upgrades from CME, including the thrust bearing kit. They were always a pleasure to do business with- shipping time was faster than average.

You're right though. Any other kind of nut would interfere with the blade root, esp with the oem platic blade grips since they are shorter.

[Greybird]

I have not seen T-nuts anywhere else. i don't think it would interfere with the blade root, but you have no room to attach a nut.

[Gadget01]

Right... because the feathering shaft is only so long....

[Dogwoodtheone]

It looks like CME Hobbies is getting out of the Eco business. The thrust bearings they had came with T-nuts. I don't know how you could add thrust bearings without the T-nuts on the Eco.

CME is leaving the ECO biz? that sucks, thought the prices where mighty low

I'm sure we could find a t-nut, might not be easy but it should be do able.

the feathering shaft is threaded for 3mm right?

[Greybird]

It is 3mm. I am not sure they are leaving the Eco behind, but, they used to have a ton of stuff, now they have very little.

[Lynxman]

The Royal feathering shaft is much longer than the stock Eco shaft. I tried using it in the red alu head with two radial bearings stacked and that worked fine. I haven't tried it with the thrust bearing but I think it should be possible to make it work. FXaeromodels have the hardened Royal feathering shaft in stock I think.

[Gadget01]

Lynx- what do you think of stock Royal tailblades? I have yet to see any shop stock them. I wanted to order a set to try them out, but I haven't had any luck. Not that I'm complaining a bit about the MS Composit fiberglass blades, which are quite nice.

[Lynxman]

They work pretty well on the Royal and make a cool sound, but I haven't tried any aftermarket blades on that heli. They are very flexible and will not break easilly, and this is probably also why they sing so much in funnels.

[Greybird]

Have you checked Ikarus in Germany?

[Gadget01]

Part #6083035 on the Ikarus US eShop... $7.35 pair or 6 euros on the euro eShop.

I thought I had looked there before.

[Dogwoodtheone]

I might consider taking your new thrust bearing set off your hands. I'm building up the Eco from my original kit and that heli "needs" them.

Might be willing to trade for some of those sweet metal ball links :)

[Dogwoodtheone]

got my Blue frame plate from CME today :D

[Gadget01]

Might be willing to trade for some of those sweet metal ball links :)

Hmmm.... interesting! I'll send a PM.

[Spidious]

Hey just like my red one ! :rolleyes:

[Dogwoodtheone]

Hey just like my red one ! :rolleyes:
yea but blue! :p

[Spidious]

But red goes with my Spiderman Jet Ranger ! :D

[Dogwoodtheone]

Well the SoutheastRC saga continues, monday she said they had gotten in a shipment from their distributer and it was probably in there and she would ship it out overnight.

big surprise, tuesday rolls around and goes on by..... no pitch gauge.

alright time to call again, this time the story is she had the product drop shipped directly from the factory, I asked for a tracking number, she hasn't gotten one
, oh and the owner had taken the PC so she could look up any of the info.

she promised to email me the tracking number, well let see its 4 pm here, that makes it 7 pm there, hmm no tracking number in my in-box.

if I don't have a tracking number by the time I get to work tomorrow I will tell
them what they can do with the order and demand my money back

and more than likely involve my credit card company as they'll have had my money for 22 days

every time I call I get a get a new story, I think I will try to talk with the owner as well.

[Dogwoodtheone]

they obviously have some serious problems at southeastrc because I spoke to the woman who runs the shipping dept. she said my pitch gauge was going to be drop shipped from the manufacture.

Get home from work, what do I see on my porch? a package shipped UPS blue from SoutheastRC, with believe it or not my pitch gauge :confused:

so apparently she had shipped it monday and two day not overnight as promised, she either lied about the drop ship (why?) or was confusing me with another shipping problem

not a ringing endorsement for there ability to get things straight......

order online from them at your own risk

[Dogwoodtheone]

also got some more aluminum bits today :D :D

some mixer arms and some sturdy blade grip arms

decided to take a risk and ordered a T-rex 600 part

got a CNC metal flybar control arm setup - looks good so far, balls a little tigh but I think I can loosen it up, or get a bigger ball link

I've just never liked the 2 separate arms for the flybar control and whe I saw the royal i looked into it, the plastic ends are as much as I paid for this complete metal setup! :eek:

[Gadget01]

Cool! So that 'Rex 600 flybar cage works eh?

What I like about having 2 separate flybar arms in the case of the Eco- you can adjust their position separately so they are not exactly parallel. With the arms parallel, they collide with the blade grips at control extremes and cause servo bindage.

I believe the links for those washout arms have a tapered fit for the pins. I can't remember which way is which- just watch out for it.

[Dogwoodtheone]

haven't really tried it yet but I still believe it will work,
there are 2 issues, one is the ball link size, which can be dealt with several ways (they're 4.71mm), the other is that its a bit wide when used with the aluminum head, you'll need a couple of spacers to keep it centered, but that should be quite simple to make

[Dogwoodtheone]

Got some new functional bling, carbon fiber and titanium push rods :D

think I should be able to replace 5 of the flimsy stock rods with these, not sure about the other 2 as the titanium part is rather long and not threaded all the way down.

should be nice and stiff :eek:

[Gadget01]

Those would really look good with metal ball links!

Where are those titanium bits from?

[Dogwoodtheone]

Those would really look good with metal ball links!

Where are those titanium bits from?

Actually i was thinking the same thing, thats why I went this route, was also looking at titanium turn buckles, but the smallest I could find would have a been a 4-40.

I found them here http://www.centralhobbies.com/control_linkage/pushrod3.htm

not the cheapest way to go, but I figured the extra strength and rigidity would be worth it in the long run. :)

[Gadget01]

I thought they looked familiar- I recognized them from the magazine ads. I was kind of afraid to go there, fearing the disappearance of my bank account funds.

I'm off to the LHS-- I'll get some of those metal ball links and pivot balls.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Sweet, I should have the auto hub today as well

[kitfoxdrvr]

I have to admit, all you Eco owners are a creative lot! Creative of ways to help me spend more money on mine!!!

Speaking of which, Gadget, those tail blade grips you got for us look great on my Eco, but they sure make the balance of the plastic stand out!!!

Steve

[Gadget01]

Yeah, I know. The bling ball links match up well, don't they?

with plastic ball links and stock blades:
http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSCN0340a.jpg

and with metal ball links and FG blades:
http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSC05366.JPG


I bought the full compliment of your metal ball links, but the pivot balls had to be ordered (should take about a week), which appear in the catalogue to be a shiny metal finish as opposed to the black ones I have. I may have to order more. I don't like the look of the black ones.
http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSC05375.JPG

installed:
http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSC05370.JPG

[Gadget01]

Oh... another thing... the double links that connect the mixing lever to the flybar.... those links have to be shortened a few mm to fit right.
http://gadgetspeed.com/images/RC/Eco8/DSC04556a.jpg

[kitfoxdrvr]

G01:

Didn't I ask you sometime a while back to QUIT POSTING THESE PICTURES?!!!!!

I hate talking $, but what do you figure you have in that tail now? It is gorgeous (yeah, wife thinks I am sick), had not seen it since you put the alu ball links in. Is that still the stock hub?

Steve

[Gadget01]

Is that still the stock hub?

Yes. It is actually 1 of 3 items on the entire heli from the original kit.

The other items are the washout base and the tail belt, but I have a 4mm royal belt to replace that with.

[lzfalcon]

got my Blue frame plate from CME today :D
Hello all,
Chris from CME Hobbies. We did make the T- nuts, They are a product of PMP for those who may remember the piccolo good old days. I have T- nut and the washers all though I have not thought about selling them separatley. New order from Boca Bearing for the thrust bearings and I will continue to sell the product that we make until the demand drops below an exceptable production level. Over the weekend I'll put the thought into selling the cup washers and the T-nuts. Thanks to all that have shopped and browsed.

[Dogwoodtheone]

Thanks for chiming in Chris, glad to hear they'll still be available for awhile :cool:
still ramping up my ECO and can foresee the need for more :D

[Gadget01]

Well... I guess I called that one wrong. Thanks Chris, for chiming in and setting the record straight on that.

CME has honestly been one of the best Eco parts shopping experiences I've had. I hope sales keep CME in the Eco parts business.

[Spidious]

Where is the list of the links, and who sells them. I have been looking all over and can't find them.

[Gadget01]

Where is the list of the links, and who sells them. I have been looking all over and can't find them.

the list of the links?

[Spidious]

Those aluminum ones you are using. Or did you make them ?