shadow f3j

[f3j rocks]

hi all

where can i find the throws and CG settings for the shadow.
i have search the net and couldent find anything

thanks michael

[Goinav8n]

Go to the MIBO web site and look at the Xpro settings. They are similar

Jeff

[OVSS Boss]

The CG I am told is about 95-100mm...

[Sotir]

CG: 99mm-100mm

Hook: 95mm

Elevator: 68 mm from down side of rudder cut for X-tail


Flying modes:

measurement for flaps is at the inside, for aileron at the outside of the wing
Start: flaps 10mm down and aileron 2mm down

Thermal 1: flaps 4mm down, aileron 1,5mm down + snap flap

Thermal 2: flaps 7mm down, aileron 3mm down + snap flap

Speed: flaps 3mm up, aileron 0,7mm up.


Floating: flaps and aileron 3mm down nothing mixed

[OVSS Boss]

Sotir,
Just interested, is your tow hook back all the way in the slot or not? Normally mine ends up aft of CG if possible.

Marc

[Sotir]

Sotir,
Just interested, is your tow hook back all the way in the slot or not? Normally mine ends up aft of CG if possible.

Marc

Mine is 95 mm from LE. F3J start must be safe and fast, than high.

[OVSS Boss]

I realize that Sotir, but no line tension is no good, and there are precautions that you can do to make a ship not pop off, groove the hook etc. Just asking.

Marc

[Sotir]

I realize that Sotir, but no line tension is no good, and there are precautions that you can do to make a ship not pop off, groove the hook etc. Just asking.

Marc
Try 0.5-1 mm up elevator in starting phase.

[OVSS Boss]

My goal is to not do just that. My goal is to have no stab up trim at all in a good launch, and to get the rotation I like, that hook has to be back a bit. If anything, I might have down elevator trim in if anything. I know, us Americans have some wierd ways.

Marc

[OVSS Boss]

Wow, first day with a Shadow, goes up really easy, but i have the CG way to far back, made one move and it is not enough, so a bit more to go. When i first started it would loose yaw heading really easy. Matter of fact, the best flying was in a turn and thermal even better, but trying to go somewhaere was like chasing a cat around. I would guess I was at 100mm to start,a nd I know Mike warned me, but i tried. My V Superior was the same way.

Marc

[f3j rocks]

Marc
do you fly the x or v tail virsion.

i flew mine for the first time on the weekend and it flew very well on the first flight i got a 4 minet flight. just by pointing it in to the wind and adding comber and it just floted. it lands so well that i could catch it on landing the first two flights. then on the 3rd fligth i got the differential sorted and the cg is nearly there. the i landed it and heard a cracking sound i checked the v tail and broke where the two halves of the spar join :(

michael

[OVSS Boss]

I got a used V-tail ship, I hope that does not happen here, the v looks good right now. I went thought this same thing with a v-tail Zenith, CG's on the v's have got to be a bit more forawrd or they are wierd. The ship launches really nicely, and like i said earlier, thermals great, just got to get that tracking to work with out killing the thermalling.

Marc

[f3j rocks]

it launchers realy well
how much lunch flap are you using? ive got 7mm flap and ailaron to mach the flap. on the first launch i only used the foot pedel at the very sart and kited it up and still had lots of tenchen for the ping.

michael

[OVSS Boss]

3JR,
I am in the ball park with you, both in throw and technique.

Marc

[mike5656]

thanks for the info on c.g. guys. they are shipping my shadow monday from soaring usa. xtail white and red.

[Chad Sullivan]

Hay F3J Rocks how is the Shadow as far as coming home from downwind. I heard from a reputable source " it sucks in the wind" , what's your take so far. Is it just a calm air ship or as the manufacturer says a ship for all conditions?
Great price for the span. But I don't fly much at 6AM. I'm looking at the x-tail version.

[jfreeman]

Don't mean to butt in here, but Chad you posted a pic of your yellow ship in another thread - was it an Eraser Extreme, or a Fazer? It looks almost exactly like my Eraser Extreme.....same color and everything.

Just ordered an X-tail Shadow....I'm sure there are ships that penetrate better in all wind conditions, but like anything else, if it's ballasted properly and flown correctly, then it should be good.

Unballasted, and in reflex, my Extreme screams....not really looking for the same thing with the Shadow...lots of wing, hoping for more of a floater.

What are you hoping it will do, or concerned it won't do?

John.

[f3j rocks]

hi
ive only had about 4 or 5 flights. there was a bit off wind and it seemd to penitrate fairly well. but if i put the nose in to the wind and added camber it floted very well. i was quite suprised it how well it did it for a 1956g model. i was flying it unballasted. but like i sead ive only had a few flight with it so far.

thanks michael

[Chad Sullivan]

Good eye John. Eraser Extreme. I have both versions v and x tail. But the x is my favorite..
But I feel like I'm getting out winged a bit by my flying buddy Buzz Averill and his damn Supra. And I don't want to be a Supra owner. Really want a Perfect or an Aspire. But neither one is going to show up on my doorstep anytime soon with the long waiting list they both have. Espada (spelling?) RL is an obvious choice but just as hard to get maybe even harder.
Anyway your right it's 10 percent ship and 90 percent set up and pilot skills. But it windy most of the time here in NM and a calm weather ship is just a paper weight most of the time.
So I'm hoping for a fairly inexpensive (in relative terms, LOL) way to get some more wing until my name comes up on one of those lists. But I'm concerned that as soon as the wind starts up I'm just going to want to grab my Extreme anyway.
Of course the whole needing of more wing thing is debatable, wasn't one of the top five at the SWC flying an Extreme?

[OVSS Boss]

Chad, have you checked with Skip on an Espada, I thought he was in stock almost all the time now.

Shadow up date. This ship in my book is probably the most Cg sensitive ship I have ever flown. Took it to Chicago for the Fred Contest and had made a significat move forward with the Cg, first test flight I had nearly 1mm of trim in the v's to get level flight, so I took out some weight and tried again. Took a bit more out and flew the day with it, I am not dead sure where it ended up, but this time had a low save try turn into a spiral save at 1' AGL. So, I am going to move back forward and shim the v and try again. We flew in 10-15mph wind and it moved around Ok, not like the Experience, but better than lets say a Zenith. It could probably use what I call super cruise, very small relex for just getting around better. i can see how this ship will be good in the trials in the early and late rounds, but the Expereince is a much better all around ship in my book, i am really liking that ship in the conditions we have here in the midwest.

Marc

[jfreeman]

Yeah, Chad, I really like my Extreme too....I almost feel guilty contemplating another ship....almost.... ;)

I had my heart set on an Aspire as well....I'm even going to be in Europe during Q3/Q4 and thought of flying over to Prague and picking one up! One of my Project Managers is actually going to be in Prague soon, but it's unfair to ask someone else to drag a Sport Tube from airport to airport....

The Perfect is well, perfect....but I can get a Shadow in the air for the price of the Perfect airframe alone.....and, given that we have more days under 12mph versus over here in Texas....well, I should be able to motivate the Shadow around OK. That said, the biggest contest in Texas is the TNT in October, and the weather in Dallas at that time of year is usually pretty windy....Marc's Experience Pro would do well at TNT, I would think!

I thought about the Espada RL, but heard it's also very expensive like the Pike, and also a handful to fly? All second hand knowledge.....don't give it much weight.

Making a decision on the right next step from the Eraser Extreme has been tough, for me at least.....keep me posted on your decision making process....

Thanks,

John.

[Chad Sullivan]

Marc,
No I have not spoken with Skip. I asked him about availability when I was up in Denver for the F3J in the Rockies event. He was not being specific, and I got the impression it was not going to be anytime soon. But it's worth a call. Ya the Espada RL is an expensive ship. But I had the privilege of Co-Calling (did I get that right DocDan, LOL) for Cody and I was amazed at the ability that ship has for covering ground. Up wind, down wind. And it looked very solid in the landing zone. Obviously Cody is probably more than capable of making a touchy ship look like a pussy cat.
John,
From what I here ( LJ has a post somewhere) the Espire production has been on hold for some time. Lubos has been building team F3B ships. So hopefully once the big names get theirs some will trickle down to us lowly mortals. ;) One thing about the Espada that impressed me was the construction. The nose is made for what it does stop ya in the big points. The side walls felt like they where close to 3/32"-1/8" of solid Carbon and Kevlar. Cody was lawn darting into the points and the airframe did not make the usual..... well you know that sound. But the Perfect did. Cody had a mid air with the RL and the damage to the wing was very local to the impact area. Not a lot of collateral damage to the skin beyond. So very high quality.
Texas in October hu. I will mapquest that and see if it is closer than Visalia.
That's a good looking ship John.

[f3j rocks]

hi OVSS Boss
have you flown the shadow much lately? what are your thorghts so far have you got your cg sorted yet?if so where have you got it? im still wating on a new tail. hope to get it in the next 3 or 4 weeks or so.

thanks michael

[OVSS Boss]

Mike,
Flew yesterday, did some really neat stuff with it, low saves out the whaz-zoo, like really low (in the 20-30 feet height kind), but still not just locked on my CG. The CG I flew at Chicago I added .4ounces and it was better, but still could kind of wobble around a bit in yaw if in just normal search mode. I have shimmed the V as well, ~.015" and it still needed a bit of up trim in normal cruise flight, was probabaly neutral in faster cruise, which may be about right.

It is interesting that on one website from Japan that this guy said 104mm for the Cg on the V-tail, I cannot imagine flying it at that spot. I would think it is nearly uncontrollable

I have maybe never had a ship that can circle better in lift than this ship, it has become a quest to get this thing really right, may also put me in the lunny bin too.

Marc

[pocket rocket]

I think the CG position is quite different on the V-tail Shadow compared to the X-tail Shadow.

Somewhere in RCGroups is Mike Lee's posting about the Shadow X-tail with CG at 110 mm back from the wing leading edge.

My Shadow X-tail is flying with the CG at 113-115 mm ( measured resting on my fingers so not too accurate I know ) and doesn't have any lead ballast in the nose at all.

I am using a 5-cell KAN950 battery up front and the rudder/elevator servos are digital minis weighing 1oz each ( one Hitec and one JR )

Total weight is around 70oz on my kitchen scale.

Philip

[OVSS Boss]

There is no doubt about that Philip, I would not consider flying at that point, adn the v-tail Superior I had was the same way vs. the straight tail.

Marc

[jfreeman]

Philip & Marc,

Keep the flying reports coming! We'd love to hear what worked and what didn't in your setup, how she responds in various flight modes, etc...

Thanks!!

John.

[davidjensen]

Xtail vs Vtail and CG. The samba web site shows the Vtail Superior to CG at about 107 and the Xtail at 115.

[belouder]

Hey all,

I've just recieved my Shadow from F3X (thanks Tom!!) and I could use any input on getting it into the air. I'm new to these moldies and how they go together but I've got some composites building experience (high performance sailboats) so I have resin, cloth, etc.

What's the sequence? Where do I start?

Thanks,
BK

[belouder]

Oh yeah-any pics of fuse servo installs (servo tray layout) and such would be greatly appreciated.

Thx

[belouder]

ditto

[nuevo]

For general moldie construction steps, go to www.f3x.com and see the "How To" section. There are several moldies there built step by step. Well documented with clear photos.

[belouder]

Thanks-I've poured over Tom's very helpful How To pages. They have helped a lot. I"m hoping to get some insight on fuse layout, antenna best practices, tow hook placement, etc.

[davidjensen]

Here is a build thread of my Xperience. Your build of the shadow should be very similar.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590779

[f3j rocks]

here is how mine is done

[belouder]

Thanks for the pics-looks very similar to what I was considering. Dumb questions # 2 and 3:
Do you stack the + and - signal wires on the 9 pin connector or do it farther out near the servos and near the Rx? not a lot of room at the 9 pin.

How tall are the control horns sticking out of the holes in the ailerons and flaps? Looks like I need to cut some threads off them. I see that the pre-drilled holes have nice flat shoulders and threads on them. Are the brass control horns supposed to sit right down into these shoulders?

Again, thanks for the help.

Bri

[belouder]

F3J-since you have your camera out!! Would you mind taking some pics of the aileron and flap control horns and such? Trying to figure out how tall they should be or if they should be threaded all the way into the holes to the shoulder.

BK

[f3j rocks]

hi there

here are some pics of the horns. i added a few pics as im not sure how they would turn out
the ailaron horn is 8mm from the top of the skin to the top of the horn
the flap is horn is 10mm from the top skin to the top of the horn
and im not sure how the wireing harnes has been done as it was done for me.

i hope this helps

[belouder]

F3J Rocks,
Thanks for the pics. This is pretty much what I had going on. Just had to cut a lot off the brass horns and wanted to make sure. Another questions-your elevator pushrods-they are hollow and don't like to be soldered-how did you get the ball joint and servo ends attached? Some have crimped the hollow wire and epoxied the thread adapters for the ball joints and clevis' on. Did you do that? or something else?

Again, thanks.

[f3j rocks]

hi

mine has solid push rods so i could solder mine. i didend use the ball links because the were to big and kept getting cort on the side off the fuse so i used clevisis insted.
i added some pics.

hope this helps.

[belouder]

F3J Rocks-Thanks again for the pics. So the top of your flap horn is 10mm from the top of the horm to the top of the skin? Wow-mine is way lower than that. It is very flat towards the back of the flap surface and doesn't get above the skin very much. If you could do a clearer pic of that, it would be appreciated.

Also-at the beggining of this thread you asked for control throws. What was related was pre-sets. Do you have actual full rate aileron up and down throws and v-tail elevator and rudder throws? It's about the only thing I haven't been able to track down. And where did your CG end up?

Thanks-almost done with this craft=can't wait to get it in the air!!!

BK

[Wing-span]

For setting up this plane I recommend that you speak to the experts at 'Acemodel'

Acemodels (http://www.acemodel.co.uk/f3j/shadow/prod_5.html)

Ask for Austin. Great service. :)

[belouder]

Thanks for the info.

BK

[f3j rocks]

hi

i will try and get hold of my dads camra to get a big clear pic for you.
and i will set up my shadow 2moro and get the thros and cg settings for you. i wont be able to get the thros for the v-tail yet as i do not have a v-tail im wating for my new one to arrive.

michael

[belouder]

Michael,
Thanks for this. I'm working on the flap drive geometry-trying to get full down flaps without things really binding. Did you use the servo covers that came with the kit-with the little blisters? Or did you have to go with something with more room for a larger control horn on the servo? Thanks for all the help-I'm sure it's a lot of questions but this is my first moldie and I want to get it right.

Where are you? Oz?

Bri

[Chad Sullivan]

Wow Rocks you have been waiting for that V-tail for some time. :(
belouder your using an offset for your flap channel correct ? Usually it's impossible to get the required travel without offsetting neutral in the Tx. I ask because your trying to get more mechanical throw from the servo arm, and the stock arm should be enough if you have the Tx set up properly.

[belouder]

I've set up the offset-I'm not having problems yet-haven't got to the point of seeing if I have enough travel. One thing though-using a JR 8303-one flap servo moves through the entire travel of the stick but the other stops when the stick reaches roughly halfway down. Doesn't stall (this is with NO linkage hooked up) just stops moving. I haven't had a chance to go farther (new baby) but could this be because I didn't dial enough offset into that channel (gear)? or is there something that slaves the gear channel to the flap channel (Aux2 I think)?

[Wing-span]

Anybody flown the two part Vtail version yet?

[f3j rocks]

hi

i used the servo covers that came with it.
yea im in australia.

thanks michael

[f3j rocks]

hi
i put it to gether and got the thros
ailarons-9mm up
-4mm down i am useing 47% diff
rudder -7mm both ways
lauch flap-flaps 7mm down and ailarons to mach
speed-flaps 3mm up and ailarons to mach
camber-flaps 3mm down and ailarons to mach
crow-as much flap as you can get and ive got 5mm up ailaron.
ive got 30% expo on ailaron and elevator.

hope this helps

[Sotir]

Anybody flown the two part Vtail version yet?

Yes. Shadow and Xperience Pro.

[ThermalBuster]

In the Glider mode, the master flap channel is channel 6 in the receiver and should have the left lap servo plugged in. The right flap goes into channel 7. The DUAL FLAP setting in the model setup slaves these two channels. Both channels need to have the sub trim set to angle the arm so that the flap down travel is maximized. The 'gear' channel is channel 5. In Glider mode it is used for the 2nd aileron (left).

Use the Travel adjustment for channel 7 to get it to follow channel 6 after you have adjusted channel 6 for proper flap travel.

:)

Hope this helps.


I've set up the offset-I'm not having problems yet-haven't got to the point of seeing if I have enough travel. One thing though-using a JR 8303-one flap servo moves through the entire travel of the stick but the other stops when the stick reaches roughly halfway down. Doesn't stall (this is with NO linkage hooked up) just stops moving. I haven't had a chance to go farther (new baby) but could this be because I didn't dial enough offset into that channel (gear)? or is there something that slaves the gear channel to the flap channel (Aux2 I think)?

[belouder]

I got the flap issue sorted-combination of not enough offset in the butterfly mix and the servo arms not being in the same spot and offset. And not enough sleep!!!!

Flew the Shadow last week. Balanced at 100 mm. Concensus was that it was quite a bit nose heavy. Removed all the nose weight I had added and it was still a bit nose heavy. So I moved the reciever (JR Scan Select 7 channel) back behind the servos and now it flies very nicely. I have a 2500 mHa square AA pack up front, not sure how heavy it is.

I haven't balanced it so I don't know where the CG is. It probably is a bit tail heavy based on what balance points folks here have suggested, but it sure flies nicely and thermal turns very well. I see what OVBOSS was talking about-turns very well this way but needs to be sped up to cruise anywher. But it really telegraphs lift this way. Variable camber is really a plus in the turns. Second flight off a short high start yielded a 14 minute flight and I haven't flowin in about 5 years.

I can see myself really enjoying flying this.

Don't have full 90 degree flaps yet, probably something more like 70 degrees. Are folks noticing a big addition to stopping power with the full 90?

And do folks have more down elevator to help rotate at the end of the ping to level? It really mushes as airspeed bleeds off. I've been told this is typical of V-tails.

Anyway, thanks all for the input-the plane flies well and makes me look much better than I am. Now to work on the tow hook placement.

[Wing-span]

Yes. Shadow and Xperience Pro.

Its seems there are very few details about this potential major improvement advertised. What details do you have?

[belouder]

Acemodels has the two piece v-tails Shadow advertised for sale.

[Sotir]

This is my shadow v-tail. Second pin is antenna connector. It's like my first F3J glider - 6 years old giga 2000 with 2 pieces v-tail produces by same company NAN.

[belouder]

Sotir-what travel do you have for the v-tails? any differential? and do you have a lot of down for rotating on the zoom?

[Sotir]

Elevator: 6mm up and as much as possible down 8-9mm, measured on the outside part of the v-tail, no differential.

[jfreeman]

Yes. Shadow and Xperience Pro.


Sotir, could you compare and contrast the flight characteristics of the Shadow and XPro? I fly TD only, no F3J.....

Thanks,

John.

[Sotir]

Sotir, could you compare and contrast the flight characteristics of the Shadow and XPro? I fly TD only, no F3J.....

Thanks,

John.
Shadow - lower start than Xperience, super for no and low thermic conditions. No problem to fly without ballast up to 5-6 m/s.
Xperience - all round flyer, but shadow is 1min 30 sec to 2 min + in no thermic conditions.

In F3J comps I use Shadow in the morning and evening rounds and Xperience in middays if wind grow.

My models are around 2 kg. Shadow 1960 g, Xperience Pro 2040

[davidjensen]

The xperience is a great all around ship. It can groove at very high speeds better than anything I have flown (except F3B ships) It is not as good for light air as Sotir stated. My Superior is superior for TD but lacks in high speed aerobatics and roll rate. My Xperience was 2250 g. The quality, fit and finish of the Nann/Mibo models is also very good.

[Tony Bermudez]

Sotir,

Why not ballast up the Shadow when the wind picks up and keep on flying it?

[Sotir]

Sotir,

Why not ballast up the Shadow when the wind picks up and keep on flying it?

It's easy for me to change model. And in hi winds higher start is very important.

[davidjensen]

I assume the Xpro penetrates better without ballast.

[pask]

What do you mean by snap flap for your thermal mode? Is it a mix flap to elevator?

Yours,
Pascal Thiou

CG: 99mm-100mm

Hook: 95mm

Elevator: 68 mm from down side of rudder cut for X-tail


Flying modes:

measurement for flaps is at the inside, for aileron at the outside of the wing
Start: flaps 10mm down and aileron 2mm down

Thermal 1: flaps 4mm down, aileron 1,5mm down + snap flap

Thermal 2: flaps 7mm down, aileron 3mm down + snap flap

Speed: flaps 3mm up, aileron 0,7mm up.


Floating: flaps and aileron 3mm down nothing mixed

[Sotir]

What do you mean by snap flap for your thermal mode? Is it a mix flap to elevator?

Yours,
Pascal Thiou

I use 10% mix elevator to flaps

[f3j rocks]

Why not ballast up the Shadow when the wind picks up and keep on flying it?


i fly the shadow in wind a lot without ballast and it penitrates fine.

[davidjensen]

I'm picking up a NIB Shadow this weekend. This will be my only TD ship this season as I traded my Thermal Dancer for an Erwin 2M sloper and had to sell my Superior to get the Shadow.

[belouder]

Oh sure, now everyone is getting one!!

See you at the field David.

Bri

[andreis]

CG: 99mm-100mm

Hook: 95mm

Elevator: 68 mm from down side of rudder cut for X-tail


Flying modes:

measurement for flaps is at the inside, for aileron at the outside of the wing
Start: flaps 10mm down and aileron 2mm down

Thermal 1: flaps 4mm down, aileron 1,5mm down + snap flap

Thermal 2: flaps 7mm down, aileron 3mm down + snap flap

Speed: flaps 3mm up, aileron 0,7mm up.


Floating: flaps and aileron 3mm down nothing mixed

Dear Sotir,
I would submit you few short questions.

Which is the measured geometric DL @ 0° Flap ?
The geometry DL@0° Flap is it the same also for the "V" version ?
I got a new V-Shadow, with two pieces V :D , that I would start to fly with an already well working setting, possibly for the first Italian Championship Trial tha it'll held next 25th May.
In short, I don't have enough time to due it by my self in so short time... :(, and any help i'll veeeery apreciated :p !!!

Is there a particular reason for which you were always flapping the airfoil, in all phases except the Speed ?
Is that mean the HN507M1 airfoil perform better when flapped instead than flat ?

Sorry for so many questions, but I would avoid any dubt about that :cool: .

Many thanks and ciao,
Antonio.

[Jurgen]

Couls someone tell what the "M1" means in HN507M1?
Profili knows HN507 but without the M1.
Thx in advance, Jurgen

[andreis]

Couls someone tell what the "M1" means in HN507M1?
Profili knows HN507 but without the M1.
Thx in advance, Jurgen

Jurgen,
Try to submit the question directly to Norbert Habe, here yo'll find his e-mail : http://www.habebert.com/.
He answered me coulpe of time, so I belive he's a kind and available person, tha will answer to your curiosity.

Antonio.

[andreis]

Couls someone tell what the "M1" means in HN507M1?
Profili knows HN507 but without the M1.
Thx in advance, Jurgen

Jurgen,
May should nont really necessary make a disturb to Norbert :) .

The differences between the two HN airfoil version are the followings :

HN-507M1
tickness = 8,25% @ 29,66%
camber = 2,35% @ 48,26%
Cm0 = -0,0884
Alpha0 = -3,2822°
Neutral point = 25,57%

HN-507
tickness = 8,15% @ 29,66%
camber = 2,15% @ 48,26%
Cm0 = -0,0809
Alpha0 = -3,0030°
Neutral point = 25,56%

So they were veeery similar between them ;) , with the exception : the HN-507M1 is slightly more thicker and slightly more cambered !!!
The Drag appear to be quite the same for both, while the lift il slightly higher in favor of the HN-507M1 :cool: .
May a more deep investigation that is going to take in consideration the entire wing planform, diedral, as the entire model, should result slightly in favor of this last M1 version, so that's my believing relevant a valid reason to make up a new version of an already goo airfoil....
We'll see what the practical result wil tell us ... :p

Here attached two polars family relevant both HN-507M1 and HN-507 at four different Re 80K, 120K, 200K, 400K.
The polar Family were calculated by XFOIL respectively @ Ncrit=9, and @ Ncrit=5.

Pls give me your comment about.

Antonio.

[Jurgen]

Thanks for this very documented clarification!
* Seems the M1 lifted the 'bucket' by a small amount as you said, should this reflect a delay of the stall and/or harder possible pull on the line?
* The factor Ncrit is still a little mystery to me :o
Jurgen.

[Francesco]

Which is the measured geometric DL @ 0° Flap ?

Antonio,
I don't think that anyone but an Italian would understand your question, since DL is an Italian acronym. You'd better use "decalage", or "longitudinal dihedral", or the German acronym EWD that someone might understand.
Francesco

[andreis]

Antonio,
I don't think that anyone but an Italian would understand your question, since DL is an Italian acronym. You'd better use "decalage", or "longitudinal dihedral", or the German acronym EWD that someone might understand.
Francesco

Oooohh ....sorry for my misunderstanding, you are rigth, many thanks and ciao,
Antonio.

[andreis]

Thanks for this very documented clarification!
* Seems the M1 lifted the 'bucket' by a small amount as you said, should this reflect a delay of the stall and/or harder possible pull on the line?
* The factor Ncrit is still a little mystery to me :o
Jurgen.

So you have many good friends, and me too.... :D :D :D

[andreis]

Thanks for this very documented clarification!
* Seems the M1 lifted the 'bucket' by a small amount as you said, should this reflect a delay of the stall and/or harder possible pull on the line?
* The factor Ncrit is still a little mystery to me :o
Jurgen.

Any case, as far as I understood, so any correction will be very apreciated:
Ncrit should be assimilated to the of air turbulence level (turbulendce of the media=air), or the boundary layer easiness to change status from laminar to turbulent.
The Ncrit=9 is universally taked, and considered, as reference value for the most common Wind Tunnel experimental result, and a good/realistic fitting for typical composite proof surfaces as the ones of our F3J/F3x models.

While lower Ncrit are more similar to the most common condition within wich our model are flying most of the time :confused: .
But in this case the condition cannot be considered always costant nor fixed, as while and contrarly are maintained quite well controlled in wind tunnel !!!
In particular, it's necessary to pay attention on the lower Ncrit Polar performance improvments, since they are only apparent, and not fully corrispondent to the reality.
The exceptions to the above assumption are i.e. the case where such turbulator are permanently working on lower Re cords.
A turbulator force a turbo flow on the airfoil surface starting from its posizion, and its effect is to grant/make a turbulent flow on the airfoil, so it fix a lower Ncrit, may quite similar to 6 o 5.... :confused:

I don't know exacly what's appening around the model surfaces in real condtions (repect in a turbo free wind tunnel), but is my believing that in normal condition within which our models are flying, is quite impossible to fix the Ncrit without any turbulator, since they are continuously variable...... :(

I mean that for lower Re (tips and orizzontal normal conditions..), the best performaces/conditions could be always worst than Ncrit=5 polars (excepting for forced transition ...), while not so well predictable by Ncrit=9 one's ..... :confused:
So the right prediction should be in the middle, but non better defined, nor better fixed, just in the middle within the two's, as numerically undefinable.... :confused:

Of course, contrarly to the lower Ncrit polar I posted, the polar simulating the turbulator must be properly recalculated (XFOIL has dedicated command/function to do it..), forcing the transition in certain position along the cord.
Probably in that case, the prediction should remain more and more precise, and realistic, due by the turbulator presence.

Note: up today I never used turbulators, but I'm seriously thinking to try it soon, mainly to limit the performances variation along the seasons, and by different meteo conditions.

Antonio.

[Sotir]

Dear Sotir,
I would submit you few short questions.

Which is the measured geometric DL @ 0° Flap ?
The geometry DL@0° Flap is it the same also for the "V" version ?
I got a new V-Shadow, with two pieces V :D , that I would start to fly with an already well working setting, possibly for the first Italian Championship Trial tha it'll held next 25th May.
In short, I don't have enough time to due it by my self in so short time... :(, and any help i'll veeeery apreciated :p !!!

Is there a particular reason for which you were always flapping the airfoil, in all phases except the Speed ?
Is that mean the HN507M1 airfoil perform better when flapped instead than flat ?

Sorry for so many questions, but I would avoid any dubt about that :cool: .

Many thanks and ciao,
Antonio.

Hi Antonio,

I not write setings for NORMAL phase because all is 0.
Usual in normal and windy conditions I fly near all time NORMAL.

[Jurgen]

Many thanks for the effort of posting, despite major language differences we are able to share at least the main lines of interest. Jurgen.

[andreis]

Hi Antonio,

I not write setings for NORMAL phase because all is 0.
Usual in normal and windy conditions I fly near all time NORMAL.

Dear Sotir,
OK, very well, thanks to confirm the Phase 0 = Normal has no flap !!! ;)
It mean you prefer to thermal with low snap mixing (10%), with such fixed flap + variable elevator, aileron, and fin to control the spiral thightness and cleaningless ;), that's veery interesting !!

Excuse me again, but I would be sure also about an other important doubt that I got : wich is the factory SHADOW Decalage DL angle ?
Do you know which is the exact decalage DL the V-two-pieces version fixed by NAN Factory (by the ref pin hole..) ??
And if the "Elevator: 68 mm from down side of rudder cut " you wer tell us relevant the X-tail version, correspond to the same angle of the V-two-pieces or not ??

Many thanks again,
Antonio.

PS: the origin of my decalage DL doubt is coming by a measuring session on three different Shadow V-one-piece version, due by a friend of mine.
Any of them has its own different decalage DL angle by factory.
Probably it's due by the fact that the V tail bed were manufactured time by time after the fuselage moulding (as is possible to see also on picture posted by F3Jrocks last August, the carbon V bed has glued on the tail ...).
At the end these three Shadow has three digfferent Dacalage DL angles, one has 1.4°, one2,8°, and one 3,2° :eek: .
May you probably already heard something in this regard.... ??:(

[VHO]

The variable decalage problem is not unique to Shadows.

Occurred with one piece V tail Xperience Pros as well.

May be worth while setting a common value with shims (take advice from Sotir or the Feigls, but might be 1.5-2deg) and trim each model the same. At least then you are working from a common base for comparison of CG trims etc.

Hutton

[webbsolution]

I have only about 3 days into a fairly light (66) ounce) shadow. I love the plane in just about every way. I would love to reduce the noise of the plane in moderate passes. The only area I can think of is to get some covers for the clevises sticking out. Has anyone found covers that will fit?

The only bad thing to report is the noise which isn't the end of the world as this isn't an F3B ship :) But when comparing the amount of noise to other planes it makes me wonder.

[Sotir]

....
At the end these three Shadow has three digfferent Dacalage DL angles, one has 1.4°, one2,8°, and one 3,2° :eek: .
May you probably already heard something in this regard.... ??:(

2,0° will be clear.

I have only about 3 days into a fairly light (66) ounce) shadow. I love the plane in just about every way. I would love to reduce the noise of the plane in moderate passes. The only area I can think of is to get some covers for the clevises sticking out. Has anyone found covers that will fit?

The only bad thing to report is the noise which isn't the end of the world as this isn't an F3B ship :) But when comparing the amount of noise to other planes it makes me wonder.

Put stickers on hook slot, and if it one peace v-tail on holes below, v-tail ruders slot must be covered also. Then noise stop, fun of it also.

[belouder]

66 oz Shadow? Wow-my one piece v-tail came in at 74 oz. with almost no weight added to balance. How can I take 1/2 lb out of this aircraft? Or could this be a different layup?

[webbsolution]

2,0° will be clear.



Put stickers on hook slot, and if it one peace v-tail on holes below, v-tail ruders slot must be covered also. Then noise stop, fun of it also.


Thank you this is a xtail I will tape everything that doesn't move :)

[webbsolution]

66 oz Shadow? Wow-my one piece v-tail came in at 74 oz. with almost no weight added to balance. How can I take 1/2 lb out of this aircraft? Or could this be a different layup?


This is supposed to be a Shadow Lite though there are no markings on it to designate it as such. So yes its a different layup.

I took every plane I had to my butcher since he has a $500 scale that measures to .0000KG and then measured everything twice. I posted my weights on the f3x build along with early flight tests.

Sweet plane.

[davidjensen]

I installed some small fairings over my control horns on the wing and it did not quiet it down much if at all. I got them from Hobby Lobby
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/servomount.htm
They are about half the way down the page. They are 2" long and I sanded about 70% of it off to make them about 3/4" long. Used goop to affix it to the wing. They only come in white but a yellow sharpy felt tip marker matches the color almost perfectly.

[andreis]

2,0° will be clear.



Put stickers on hook slot, and if it one peace v-tail on holes below, v-tail ruders slot must be covered also. Then noise stop, fun of it also.

OK,
I'll start to fit/match my CG with 2° of decalage you are suggesting.

Many thanks.
Antonio.

[andreis]

OK,
I'll start to fit/match my CG with 2° of decalage you are suggesting.

Many thanks.
Antonio.

Today I were 5th at Italian Championship 2° trial (my best result up today :D...) in veeery trickie and variable conditions : good thermals, deep holes, wind, sun, tunderstorm.... alla together :eek:

My Shadow out of box has 1° DL (decalage), and after many thoughts, I was start flying with CG position of 105mm from LE.
My version has carbon D-box Central-wing, and carbon D-box that end half way of the Terminal-wing, but the terminals has slightly positive incidence respect to the central portion, about 0,5° :confused: ???

Just from the first fly, I were surprised about its overal balance with the above values, especially about its neutrality from the Flap deflection, as it doesn't require such pich compensation from +4° Thermal to -2° Speed.
It require less than 0,5° piching compensation with +9° Start in level flight.....
Despite its dimension's, it surprisingly fly well also against wind :eek: !!
It thermal's very easy, due to its veeery ligh inertia terminal (they are quite fragile...), also if I whould see how it'd spiral with some more robust terminals , may with full carbon D-box !!!

I hope to get some more good feeling at the Jura Cup next week :p .

Dear Sotir,
Have you such idea/feeling about the fly changes with some more heavy/robust terminals ?

Antonio.

[webbsolution]

Every now and then I am bitterly reminded that the only thing that can overcome skill,practise and a yearning to win is a fundamental mistake in preparation.

Due to a rather amature solder job I lost a battery at the WC. I think my plane was three turns into strong lift when it decided to go its own way...maybe 700 feet down. When I turned my back on her and ran for the relite it was making a terrible noise racing to earth. I still wake up in the middle of the night and yell "DOH"!

I need a new fuse for my shadow. I hate to wish ill thoughts on any of you but if you have a fuse left over let me know. Mine is repaired but its a sloper fuse at best. My wing has a decent repair on one panel and the rest is acceptable for basic contest flying.

[Francesco]

Every now and then I am bitterly reminded that the only thing that can overcome skill,practise and a yearning to win is a fundamental mistake in preparation.

Due to a rather amature solder job I lost a battery at the WC. I think my plane was three turns into strong lift when it decided to go its own way...maybe 700 feet down. When I turned my back on her and ran for the relite it was making a terrible noise racing to earth. I still wake up in the middle of the night and yell "DOH"!

I need a new fuse for my shadow. I hate to wish ill thoughts on any of you but if you have a fuse left over let me know. Mine is repaired but its a sloper fuse at best. My wing has a decent repair on one panel and the rest is acceptable for basic contest flying.
I was one of the guys peeking at the repair works from the Italian tent. Your wing repair is AMAZING CRAFTSMANSHIP! You have my sincere admiration!
Francesco

[webbsolution]

I was one of the guys peeking at the repair works from the Italian tent. Your wing repair is AMAZING CRAFTSMANSHIP! You have my sincere admiration!
Francesco

Thank you very much Franceso! That is quite a compliment coming from an Italian. After all your country created the Ferrari, Ducati and and lamborghini not to mention da Vinci and Donatello!

Hopefully at the next WC I won't have to use those skills as much as I did this year :(

It was a lot of fun watching your junior team relax between rounds. It reminded me of my own children back home.

Hope to see you all in France in 2010

[webbsolution]

Took my repaired shadow out for its new maiden flight. It was blowing about 12 KPH so I did a series of hand launches to double check elevator position etc. After I was sure it was trimmed out well enough I put it up on my winch and tapped it up and gave her a huge zoom to ensure that if anything was seriously out of shape it would fail while no one was looking.... all good, huge alt on that zoom whoooooooooooshhhhh

The model flew great but I noticed a slower response on the elevator due to increased friction from the multiple breaks on the fuse so I took her down from an easy 20 minute minute flight. When I got it down I also noticed the rudder was no longer centering so that control line has too much frictiona as well.

Sooooooo, question to you Nan experts. How do you replace the elevator and rudder lines without cutting into the rudder from the side?

[Sotir]

.... How do you replace the elevator and rudder lines without cutting into the rudder from the side?
for X-tail
Rudder one is easy - just cut in front and change.
For elevator you must cut part of balsa wall in front of rudder flap and you can manage to pull it out.

[webbsolution]

for X-tail
Rudder one is easy - just cut in front and change.
For elevator you must cut part of balsa wall in front of rudder flap and you can manage to pull it out.


Do you have any exact measurements of where to cut or maybe a picture with a circle?

[Sotir]

Do you have any exact measurements of where to cut or maybe a picture with a circle?

sorry but only my first xperience pro was x-tail.
Extract wide part of balsa 2 cm under joiner to the bottom part. After replacement glue it or put new balsa stripe.

[belouder]

Sotir,
I have a v-tail Shadow and have finally been able to put some flights on it. It seems that I might not have enough pitch and yaw "power" in the v-tail (top of ping is very sluggish to rotate level, etc) and I was wondering where your CG is and how much control surface deflection you use for rudder and elevator? I'm assuming CG will affect how pitch sensitive the craft is to input.

Also-I'm using mostly rudder and elevator to initiate thermal turns and only a small amount of reverse aileron to maintain bank angle. Currently I have rudder mixing in with the ailerons but I feel I might dial this back to nothing as it seems it reduces rudder throw when turning. What is the consensus on aileron/rudder coupling?

Thanks,
BK

[jboujon]

Hi,

I'm flying a Vtail Shadow...CG is at 87mm...it's smooth and easy to fly!
Tail offset is 1mm up.

[Sotir]

my settings are on first page of this thread.