History, Deer Water and wagon trails, Idaho

[kd7ost]

This is the discussion thread for the History, Deer Water and wagon trails, Idaho thread found here.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=704299

Dan

[skymind]

Thanks for sharing Dan. An intersection of histories at one geographical location. Pics of pictographs are one item I'd like to shoot. Are the pictographs placed where the artist stood on the ground or did they have to climb? The light attire of the ancient people make me wonder if the climate was nicer or they simply had industrial-grade melanin. Did this point seem to be of any significance to wagoneers?

[kd7ost]

Thanks for sharing Dan. An intersection of histories at one geographical location. Pics of pictographs are one item I'd like to shoot. Are the pictographs placed where the artist stood on the ground or did they have to climb? The light attire of the ancient people make me wonder if the climate was nicer or they simply had industrial-grade melanin. Did this point seem to be of any significance to wagoneers?

It is pretty cool the way the histories intersect as you put it. Going there and seeing things from a hundred years ago, to thousands is pretty rare I think. But then again, we don't know how old the petroglyphs are except that they preceded the wagon trains.

All of these can be reached while standing on the ground. I didn't see any higher up. The rock surface is pretty rough and lacks any real "slate" to paint on though.

I think the ancient people were just mentally tougher than us if I can put it that way. Or perhaps they just didn't know anything else. They also migrated to some extent but not far. The Snake River is a good year round source of food and water and the Owyhee country has some deer, Big Horn sheep, lots of Antelope and plenty of small game birds. It will go from in excess of 100 F out here on a summer day to below 0 F on the winter nights. I'm sure that’s not a recent climate trend. I doubt they did any complaining about the hot or the cold. Thirst and hunger were the bigger constant issues for the Hunter/gatherer peoples.

The people in Wagons had better resources to pack along, but they couldn't live off the land as well as the Shoshone and Paiutes of the area. They still kicked our modern day rear ends though as far as being hardy.

Dan

[Gray]

Fascinating presentation Dan, I like the combination of the old and new history.
Have the rock paintings been dated? Such remote locations are awesome to me living in the UK.

Gray.

[kd7ost]

I really enjoy it Gray. I'm lucky to be in such a place. I'm thinking I should rename the thread to wagon routes through the Owyhees and keep moving along the course. It might be better to have one long thread than a bunch of small ones. Especially when these places all tie together anyway. It will just take an awful long time to cover it. Lots of hiking involved.

I haven't found any dates listed anywhere for the paintings. I'm sure some of that is speculation but I'll try to find out those more obscure tidbits. For some reason, even though there is a lot of Native American evidence out here, it doesn't garner the same interest in study time from experts as the Southern States do.

Dan

[Real Ira]

Sounds like you must have had darn good time out there.

I think the reason these important sites don't get the attention is just lack of awarness and what you are doing could very well change that.
There must be a university that would be quite happy to have you share your findings.
The worst thing would be for those artifacts to sit out there and turn to dust.
Maybe it's because I'm a weirdo but the mask intrigues me?
It looks un-weathered and so out of place. There has to be a story there.


Ira

[Tom Harper]

Dan,

What a wonderful site. The red and blue is beautiful.

I assume there are no projectile points lying around that would help with dating. There may be campsites on the high ground that would yield lithics. Worth the hike.

The style could help in dating. Based on style, a safe date on the pictograph below is 1100 - 1600AD. The one on the right is an intaglio that may be Archaic ~6000BC. Neither resembles the style used in petroglyphs. Your deer is closer to the intaglio figure.

Your photo '03 North View with Swale' is interesting because it shows some erosion on the down hill slope to the right. Do you have a shot that shows the erosion cut?

Tom

[skymind]

There's a place here in Colorado where cans are found piled in the forest near an old railroad junction. The style of can appears similar to those cans and nothing like what you would see today.

[Tom Harper]

Got any photos?

The solder patterns for the civil war period are supposed to be characteristic.

[skymind]

No, didn't have my camera with me. I didn't pick-up any of them but noticed that the ends were different, but seems like the cans in Dans pic. It's along a drive I make every couple of months. I'll have to make a point of stopping there again to study them and get some pics. The train ran out of Denver from about 1880's and finally ripped up around 1930.

[kd7ost]

Your photo '03 North View with Swale' is interesting because it shows some erosion on the down hill slope to the right. Do you have a shot that shows the erosion cut?

Tom

Hi Tom,

I may have at that. I'll have to check through the pictures once I get back home. I didn't fly that far down for the most part and likely have it in pictures from more in front of it but that wasn't a photo target so they'll still be off to the side.

What is it about that feature that interests you? I can easily head back out and look closer at it and get pictures of that feature.

Dan

[kd7ost]

I just looked through all the pictures Tom. I don't have any shots of that drain better than the one posted. I still don't understand your interest in the erosion feature. Is there something I should be looking at there?

Dan

[Tom Harper]

Dan,

I'm interested in the erosion from 'down hill' tracks for a couple of reasons. The first is that the down hill erosion cuts outlive the tracks on level ground. The swales will fill with sand and vegetation and eventually dissappear. I have an article on the compaction left by Patton's tanks. The author estimates that bacterial action will reduce compacted tracks in 500 years. But, I have observed that where the tracks cross a crest, or better a steep hill, the erosion increases over time. Eventually, only the erosion cuts remain. So, I am interested in examples that compare visible swales with continuous erosion tracks.

The second reason is to observe how wagons negotiated steep downhill tracks. The drivers used extreme measures to brake the wheels - a tree trunk through the spokes with chain wrapped around the tires or dragging a felled tree (if you could find one) behind the wagon. These measures caused erosion. I am curious about how steep a grade was required to employ them. I have some dramatic erosion cuts that lack matching swales. They go from sand into arroyo bottoms. so there are no obvious swales.

If there are artifacts to be found, they should be around the eroded paths because that is where travel was most difficult. I now have permission from the BLM to use a metal detector, but no luck (or skill) yet.

So, I think the erosion is a very interesting part of the study.

[kd7ost]

Ah, now I understand and will look for that feature.

I used the Google Earth view in the original post though and can say in this case it does not appear as though the swale and the erosion are related. I've ID'd the features here. The swale is South of the erosion and is on ground that is a little less steep. The erosion is on a steeper part of the hill and to the North East.

Dan

[Tom Harper]

Thanks for the clarification.

On another topic - I wonder what kind of dye they used for the pictographs. The elk/deer is very distinct. Is the rock face protected from water runoff?

Tom

[Shurp]

I know it's been a while since anyone has commented, but I just wanted to say "Great documentation Dan!"

My bachelors is in anthropology and archaeology. I went to University of Idaho and our primary emphasis is in the Columbia Plateau and Northwestern Coastal areas. I'm a little rusty on particulars, but I'd like to add a couple things if I may.

Native peoples roamed widely throughout the area. Generally speaking, they would be out on the plains during spring and fall, up in the high country during the summer (much cooler, more animals and plants), and then winter over down along the rivers (much warmer). We see that reflected both in the archaeologic record and more recent ethnologies. There is also evidence of vast trade networks from the cultural and mineral material found. It's common to find coastal materials far inland. Horses weren't adopted until relatively recently, so those trails could have been foot paths, horse paths, or even something more recent (i.e. fur trading, mining, etc.). Most likely it started as a foot path.

Dating these pictographs would be pretty difficult. The oldest cultural material that I ran into was associated with relative dates somewhere around 10,000-12,000 years ago (based on stratigraphy and volcanic ash)... the radio carbon date sample taken came back with a date from around 10,000-12,500 so it's kind of hard to narrow things down (this site was up near Cottonwood, Id.). Although there are alternate methods, such as using lichen, that can give you an additional relative date, it's still very difficult to pin a date down and that science is still developing. Probably the best bet is a comparative study versus others that have been documented and are tied to harder dating, else you're stuck with a date between 100 to 12,500 years ago. ;)

The pigment could have been made from minerals, plant materials (berries), animal matter, etc... pretty much whatever might be available locally. But for things of greater significance, it wouldn't be a long shot to assume it was brought in from a long way off.

There have been lots of studies all throughout the area, so I'm sure this site has been documented already, so most university types probably won't exhibit much interest. I know for sure that the modern native peoples know this site, as well as many others. A lot of modern peoples don't know about pictograph and petroglyph sites for a pretty good reason. For example, there are a couple site just west of Lewiston, ID that have paid the price for being close to the road; lots of graffity, trash, etc. Unfortunately, this is more the rule than the exception. Sites such as this tend to be pretty closely guarded and you can run the risk of endangering the site or offending someone. Tread lightly.

For sure continue with photo documentation, but take care on who you share your geolocations with; there are still many looters which is pretty common.

John

[kd7ost]

Hi John,

I agree. The best places in the Owyhees that I know of are kept close to the vest. I do realize this one is a little off the beaten path enough that common folks won't go there. I also struggle with documenting known places before they disappear for all time.

I see you live next door to me. Are you doing any AP? It would be fun to do a project next year.

Dan

[Shurp]

Keep documenting! Can't wait to see what you come up with next!

I'm getting back into AP. I did some back in the late 90's and was pretty successful in my attempts with what I had available at the time. Technology is finally catching up to my 'big dreams' back then!

I just finished a 40 sized trainer that I'll be using. I need to maiden her and get some stick-time before I start working on my camera mounting ideas (nothing as elaborate as you've got!). Eventually I'll also pick up an electric. For now I'm just going to stick with what I know first. I've got a project in the works for late next summer which will carry through the the winter, so I'll need to do some experimentation to find the right mix.

Please keep me in mind for future projects. I'd love the opportunity!