Piano wire

[Snorks]

Why is Piano wire such bad quality these days?

Simon

[imp.bob]

Because there are only about five people in the world still building models, it doesn`t really matter !!!!Why is Piano wire such bad quality these days?

Simon

[gossie]

Because there are only about five people in the world still building models, it doesn`t really matter !!!!

Even though I'm laughing-----how right you are. In fact it may only be four.

Do agree the modern piano wire is rubbish compared to the 1950s stuff.

I have a built several large freeflight rubber model over the past 10 years and I would not even think about using 16swg/16th wire in the front ends of those as we used to do, now go thicker to 14swg or even 12swg that in modern talk because the swg thing seems to have gone about 3/32 wire, otherwise I can see them at about 1000 turns or more on 16 strands of rubber the whole front end letting go.

It's all a worry for the four of us. LOL.

[ramon.alban]

I can see them at about 1000 turns or more on 16 strands of rubber the whole front end letting go. It's all a worry for the four of us. LOL.

At least the Crown Jewels are safe when the front-end lets go! Unlike a failure at the rear peg - TeeHee.

[Snorks]

I thought maybe it's because they dont make pianos anymore....

[imp.bob]

They are still making piano`s, but now they`re called ARTF models!!!!I thought maybe it's because they dont make pianos anymore....

[bhchan]

Most pianos nowaday have those electornic doodads in them...... they don't need the hammers and wire to make music!

Brian, an EAJ

[Trisquire]

Liberace had the last good one.

Tom

[gzkpez]

Do they really use our piano wire in pianos? I am serious.

There are some very nice grand pianos made today; The Steinway pianos cost like a new german sports car. There is a Korean one that is very nice for the price, I forget the name. The grand pianos are really neat to look at, play and study the construction; just like a well build old time model airplane. There use to be a piano store in the building I worked at and the sales people were very nice and proud of ther product, rightfully so.

Also what is a good source for the good piano wire or the best available. Would it help if we heat treat it a little?

Thanks
Greg

[bhchan]

No, we use the wire in the piano.

Brian, an EAJ

[Snorks]

I'm not sure how one could improve it. I have difficulties with my landing gear - which are usually about 1/8'' diameter. After a rough landing or two it seems that its lost any of its springy quality. I remember i had a kiel kraft phantom that had very hard landing after very hard landing.... and i still have the UC in my workshop as the sole surviving piece left of the model!
I have a grand piano here in the tasting room, I'll have a look & check out the wire. No i dont think i'll pinch any...

[vintage1]

you can try tempering it by getting it red hot and dripping it into a bath of cold liquid.

However, the actual quality is as you say, not what it used to be.

[noblapod]

Piano wire had to be made softer because of the poorer quality cutting tools that have flooded our hardware stores. It was found that the tools were softer than the piano wire so a World Trade Agreement was signed and all piano wire had to be lower quality!!!
Sorry, I have just realised that today is not April 1st!!
Yes the older piano wire was much better. I wonder if anyone, anywhere, still makes it.?
Chris U.K.

[bob2005]

I was in the kit business in the 1980's and have some music wire in 12' lengths. I sent you a P M yesterday and you can get in touch.
Bob

[olmod]

Ihave always known piano wire to be the same as spring steel wire,and can be purchased as half hard for cold forming or hard wich can be formed to a point that once you pass that limit it will fracture.
The process for hardening is to heat to cherry red and plunge into fish oil clean the surface back to silver then temper with a soft flame through a range of colours that range from light straw,mid straw, dark straw,into purple, the light straw to mid being what i had to use at the time,
working in a springworks was one of the warmer wintertime jobs i did as a lad. :) cheers.Lez.

[Snorks]

Thanks Bob, I live here in Africa & the postage would make it not worth while.
Thanks for the tip olmod, maybe all the hobby shops are purchasing 'half hard' ?
simon

[BMatthews]

Music wire is still universal. Guitars, banjos and other steel stringed instruments as well as pianos all use the same stuff.

You can also buy it in coils from industrial supply outlets. But it's in a coil and not straight. There's a trick you can use to make it striaght. Cut off a bunch and then twist it with the right number of turns per inch while under high tension and it'll spring back but stay straight. This is obviously what K&S does to prepare the wire for us. I can often see the twist lines in the larger sizes of wire if you hold it to the light just right.

I suppose that like most things there is a better source for a higher quality of music wire. But to keep the hobby shop price down K&S or the other companies are obviously going to use the lower priced stuff provided it works decently. Mind you the definition of "decently" varies with the modeller. And we all know that free flighters are a fussy lot that expects nothing but the best so that we can maintain our high standards of excellence....

[Joe Minton]

The "piano" wire I bought in the 50s was clearly drawn. It was very hard and would damage even the best wire cutters. It was also very strong - very difficult to bend. And, it would sometimes split along its length when twisted, something that only drawn wire does.

What I use now is much weaker and I sometimes must use a larger diameter to get enough bending resistance. It is easier to cut though and is generally more pleasant to work with. I'd like to have access to both.

Joe

[Reid Welch]

I'm a former piano technician of thirty years' standing.

Music wire in instruments today is as good as ever.

Drawn and tempered carbon steel.

The Mapes Piano String Company of Elizabethton, Tennessee, is a paragon
of quality and old-time personal attention to customer needs.

They will solve this problem for you guys.
How do I know? I haven't done business for ten years.
I know them by past dealings: Friendly, fast, competent.

Swedish steel. They draw the wire down themselves.
Mapes makes the wire that Steinway employs

http://www.mapeswire.com/springwire.html

[zl3vml]

I got this some time back - not sure where anymore, but thanks go to the writer.....
(hope the formatting comes out ok)

Mark

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Treating Music Wire - Roy Vaillancourt

The music wire used by modelers to make landing gear and cabin struts is
medium carbon steel heat-treated to spring temper or about 45 on the
Rockwell C scale of hardness (RC45). On this scale,RC20 is soft,RC45 is
tough,and RC60 is hard. Tough wire can be bent and cut using the proper
tools and techniques, but sometimes it's just too difficult to work with.

One way to soften steel music wire is to heat it, which makes it easy to
bend and form. But after heating and form- ing, the subsequent cooling --
often at an uncontrolled rate -- can make the finished wire too hard or
too soft since its hardness is determined by the rate at which it cools.
For some parts, the final hardness isn't critical. But a land- ing gear
formed from wire softened too much won't spring back to its original
position; and a gear made from wire cooled to a harder than normal state
will snap on its first use. To restore the wire to its original specific
spring temper, it must be heat-treated a second time and cooled at a
controlled rate.

To form wire easily, first anneal it; next, form or bend it to the desired
shape; and then heat- treat the part back to spring condition -- that is,
temper it. First the wire should be annealed at the location to be bent.
To anneal it, heat the wire with a torch until it becomes a bright cherry
red -- about 1400 degrees Fahrenheit. Let it cool completely to the touch.
Don't quench it or blow on it. Just let it cool naturally away from any
drafts. The wire should now be in the RC25 soft range, and it will bend
easily. After forming once again heat the wire with a torch until it
becomes bright cherry red, but this time quench it -- that is, cool it
rapidly by immersing it in room tem- perature water. Plunge the steel into
the water with a twisting, swirling motion to keep water vapor from
insulating the wire against the cooling action of the water.

At this point the wire should be very hard, probably above RC60. To test
the hardness, try to make a mark on the worked area with a file. The file
should slide off without cutting into the steel at all. If it cuts the
wire, try the heat and quench cycle again. If the file still cuts the
wire, it isn't high carbon steel. Get another piece of wire and start over
-- you won't be able to add the neces- sary carbon to low-carbon steel.

When the file test signals success, the wire is ready for the final step,
but not for use, because it's very hard and quite brittle, and will
probably snap off. The final step is to temper the wire back to the
desired hardness. Tempering is a form of annealing but is controlled so
that the steel achieves a specific hardness.

Start by sanding the wire with steel wool or emery cloth. Then heat it
gradually with the torch. Watch for the following colors as a guide:straw
color (350 degrees), followed by dark blue (600 degrees), and then medium
blue (750 degrees). At this point, remove the wire from the heat and allow
it to cool slowly. Don't quench it or blow on it; just let it cool
naturally in still air. Once the steel returns to room temperature, it
should be at the target RC45 hardness, which has a good spring temper.

Try the file test again. You should be able to make a mark now, but only
with some effort. If it passes this test, the wire is properly tempered.
Besides parts for model planes, tempered music wire can also be used to
make special pur- pose tools. Instead of tempering to 750 degrees (medium
blue), stop at the straw color stage. The wire will be at about RC60,
which is still very hard, but not brittle. Wire at this temper can be used
to drill wood and plastics, and most aluminum and copper.

Notes
1. Rockwell hardness testing, named after Stanley Rockwell who made his
first testing machine in 1921, is a gen- eral method for measuring the
bulk hardness of metallic and polymer mate- rials. Although hardness
testing does not measure performance properties, hard- ness correlates
with strength, wear resis- tance, and other properties. Rockwell hardness
testing is an inden- tation testing method. An indenter is impressed into
the test sample at a pre- scribed load to measure the material's
resistance to deformation. A Rockwell hardness number is calculated from
the depth of permanent deformation of the sample after application and
removal of the test load. Various indenter shapes and sizes combined with
a range of test loads form a matrix of Rockwell hardness scales that are
applicable to a wide variety of materials. The Rockwell B and C scales are
used for metallic substances.

2. Anneal:To heat and then cool (as steel or glass)usually for softening
and making less brittle.

3. Quench:To cool (as heated metal) suddenly by immersion (as in oil or
water).

[BMatthews]

I'm afraid that Ray's method is not the best for one big reason. He's talking about heating in local areas which means that there will be zones on either side of the heat treated area that will always remain in the annealled state. To do it right you need to heat the entire wire and hold it above the critical temperature and quench it in one go. Then the entire wire piece needs to tempered as one piece.

The issue with locally hardening only at the bends is that the metal needs to rise above a set critical temperature before the quench. The areas to either side that do not reach that temperature will have been annealed and will not harden. This is an all or nothing sort of deal. If it's not over the critical temperature it won't become semi hard. It just becomes soft.

The critical temperature is roughly equal to a bright cherry orange/red color glow. If it's a dull blackish red then it'll just end up being annealed even with the quench.