Atlantic Harbor Tug [Archive]

Hoghappy

Jun 15, 2007, 09:50 AM

I think it is in the huge thread on the Atlantic. But Cap'n Horrible Harry discovered that it is indeed a Russian tug and he had a photo to prove it.

Can't find anything on it...maybe the Cap'n will chime in on this? I would love to see that pic! :D

Got her wired up temporarily to test in the tub last night. Looks like I have full forward and reverse with the Hitec Laser 4 and Hitec EZX-R ESC setup. I'm not sure if the shaft is perfectly straight as I do have a slight wobble on the prop and some vibration at the other end as well. Is that normal? She didn’t weep a drop. I also need more rudder and will mess with the transmitter volume controls first. I dropped in a 7amp 6 volt lead gel cell and will need to move some of the glued down (why did they do that?) ballast aft. I want a main power on/off switch to the battery that I can operate without having to open and close any hatches etc. I always had a slider switch for the receiver/servos with a small push/pull rod going through the fuselage on the planes I built. Any ideas on what I can do here without a big ole switch above deck? I also have a Ram bilge pump to mount aft as well.

I think this little tug will be fine for what I need it for….play, rescue and fish bait hauler. Pics will come as I start the over haul.

"Weevils...the breakfast of iron men sailing wooden ships!"

patmat2350

Jun 15, 2007, 10:01 AM

Good to hear that the EZX-R is happy on 6v... hopefully it doesn't quit when the battery gets down to like 5.5v- it's spec'd for 7.2 - 8.4 v in, which suggests it has an internal voltage regulator to make 5.0 v... might be touchy at the lower voltages.

You can control power two ways. The switch on the EZX-R is a little thing on the logic side, but will cause eveything to shut down- nice. But it's built into the ESC, not on a pigtail, so it can be hard to access. I like ESC's which have such a switch, and which put them on pigtails- allows for remote mounting.

The other way is to switch the battery lead, the "mains". If you do this, remember that the switch must carry full motor current- don't put some wimpy 1A switch on this circuit! I don't like doing this except on small models with very low motor current.

Whichever switch, it's always fun to find a way to hide it on deck- under some easily removeable fitting for example.

pm

Hoghappy

Jun 15, 2007, 11:40 AM

Yip...I'm curious about the low voltage on the ESC too! Maybe I will find time to run a torture test on it this weekend.

Robert

Kmot

Jun 15, 2007, 11:42 AM

maybe the Cap'n will chime in on this?
He usually surfaces every three or four months.

LtDoc

Jun 15, 2007, 12:45 PM

Hoghappy,
About hiding the switch, why not the same way as on the planes? Use a 'rod' that looks like an antenna. Or a 'rocker-switch' and a hole over each end, push on, push off. An imagination is a terrible thing!
- 'Doc

Kmot

Jun 15, 2007, 06:45 PM

IIRC, Harry told me he found out it was a Russian built tug type that was used by the Chinese naval forces or merchant marine. That would explain why a Chinese company (Aquacraft/Hobbico) made a tug that looked like a tug they were used to seeing in their own waters. Yet it was Russian built.

Hoghappy

Jun 15, 2007, 06:49 PM

Thanks Kmot...I searched the ruskies sites, now I'll try the Chinese.

Prins Willem

Jun 15, 2007, 09:42 PM

Hey Guys,

One of our clubs relatively new guys bought a Atlantic as his first boat. It serves a good purpose in letting someone get started quickly. We have been urging him to make some cosmetic mods as a way to improve the looks and give him some confidence in working on the boat. The first thing he did was move the lifeboat and davit to the cabin roof where it belongs. The next thing he will probably do is tone down the shiny paint. Maybe a little weathering is in order too. If I didn't screw up attaching the photo you can see the new lifeboat locationIMGA0260.JPG

Aerominded

Jun 15, 2007, 10:04 PM

I think that is the perfect use of an RTR, Prins- To allow someone new to enjoy the fun with minimum time investment up front and to allow them to develop some modeling skills in increments... Some of us with a few boats under our belts may forget how intimidating a multi-month project that starts out as a box of wood or just drawings can be... :)

Kmot

Jun 15, 2007, 11:06 PM

Yeah, it works wonders. Look at what Cap'n Nick of the Hansen Dam Irregulars has done with an RTR:

Prins Willem

Jun 16, 2007, 09:45 AM

On of our members picked up a couple of scratch & dent Bristol Bays from Tower Hobbies last fall. He sold them at cost to interested members. One boat you would barely recognize. I don't have the pictures to post here so I put the Feb 07 newsletter links back on the WSBA website Shipyard Page. There is a review of the conversion in that issue with a explanation of the mods and two good pics. The member who did it just wanted to try the project for "what the heck". The boat made it's debut at the Wisconsin Boat Show. He sold it to another member before the show was over. A good example of a little imagination.

Wisconsin Scale Boating Assoc. Website Shipyard Page (http://wiscaleboat.org/shipyard.htm)

Kmot

Jun 16, 2007, 11:01 AM

I copied it for you PW. That is another amazing conversion!

Prins Willem

Jun 16, 2007, 11:40 AM

Thanks Kmot

Hoghappy

Jun 18, 2007, 11:47 AM

Another Tub Test. I installed the battery out of my schooner (6 volt-7 amp gel cell) and ran the tug at full throttle (forward and back) for a torture test this weekend. She ran fine for about 70 min until the ESC started glitching on and off. I checked voltage at this point and it was about 4.9 volts. I chose this ESC based on a post I read here about using it in this tug with a 6 volt battery. The Hitec EZX-R is not going to cut it. I’m replacing it with an Associated A.I. Quantum Runner Plus Reverse ESC. This is my first electric boat and I guess this is going to be another trail and error adventure. :rolleyes:

The 7 amp battery/current ballast is not going to work either. They used a ton of rock hard epoxy to glue down the ballast in this thing. I about put a hole in the thin glass bottom trying to pry up the ballast bars. No luck! The battery is too heavy where it sits on the bottom of the hull forward of the servo tray. I can stand it up on the servo tray. It fits there and the weight is shifted far enough aft to give me a good waterline, but it makes the tug more top heavy than I like. So…I will be going to a 1 lb lighter 4.5 amp gel cell and Velcro it to the bottom of the hull forward of the tray.

She also leaked about 3 table spoons of water up the rudder shaft. I need to make the shaft taller or try to seal it better….maybe it needs some grease.

I received an apparently seized up Ram bilge pump. Can’t get it to do anything except heat everything up and light its light. I’m not sure if I even want one at this point. I will be sending it back to Tower. I ordered some goodies for it from Harbor Models and all in all…I’m still happy with the tug, and I think my 1st mate likes it too!

I will continue to post as I refurbish her.

Robert

“Weevils…the breakfast of iron men sailing wooden ships!”

Soar Master

Jun 18, 2007, 11:15 PM

Goodies from Harbor Models, sounds good! :D

Brooks

Jun 18, 2007, 11:20 PM

Hoghappy: Info too late for you, perhaps, but I ran my Vac U tug with 4 blade prop and standard motor for 2 hrs yesterday. According to the battery charger, the tug used 1/2 the amp hrs of the 2000mah battery. So, 3-4 hours run should be obtainable with the pretty much standard 7.2v rc car battery. If you were using it just as a rescue tug for your Schooner, of course the battery would last longer since you only need to turn on the tug before launching a rescue. Vac U tugs build rapidly if you forgo adding scale detail stuff. The construction speed record is on the order of 2 evenings; waiting for paint to dry is the most time consuming part, but if you like white, you don't even have to paint it :-).

Hoghappy

Jun 19, 2007, 08:41 AM

Me again...I stripped the tug last night. This thing is built better than I hoped. All the decks and bulkheads are thin glass and or wood. The stack is ABS as are all the detailed parts. I'm not sure what they used to coat/finish this thing with but it is hard and thick, but it is not going to stay glossy! :p

I am looking to add a capstain winch aft and possibly forward. Haven't seen anyone use one on this model yet. They will be static. The aft winch will hide my installed 15 amp push pull switch to the in line automotive fused main power supply (6 volt battery). I soldered in the 30 amp flat blade style fuse holder between the battery and power switch on the neg side and used all 12 gauge wire. I have a 10 amp fuse in it now. How much can this stock 550 motor draw? What do y'all recommend for fuse rating and is the fuse in a good spot electrically?

I'm looking for a 1/24 scale winch already built or to fab one myself. I thought I would just get a wooden thread spool and modify it, but I can't find one. They are all thin plastic. When did they quit making those things out of wood? :rolleyes:

I have a drill press and maybe can turn it into a low speed lathe but I have my doubts about getting a big dowel into the chuck. Any ideas on this one guys?

Thanks

Robert

"Weevils...the breakfast of iron men sailing wooden ships!"

PS...thanks Brooks...but it is too late...I'm already too deep into this adventure and I will be playing with this tug a lot besides using it for rescue. It will need to have long battery life at a decent cost. I hope I can do this with the 6 volt 4.5 amp gel cells. I can get 2 or 3 of those and swap them out as needed.

Rex R

Jun 19, 2007, 12:44 PM

if you're reasonably good at drilling on center...run a bolt through your dowel, and then chuck the bolt. might find thread spools at a craft shop.

LtDoc

Jun 19, 2007, 03:02 PM

Hoghappy,
Another thought about those winches. Not having any dowel of the right diameter, I happened to run across an old empty marker pen (never throw those good thingys away, you'll regret it). Thought that if it were cut off a bit, maybe painted, it'd make a pretty good 'reel' part for a wench. Cut it, and after removing all the ink that wasn't as 'gone' as I thought, glued on some frame work and painted the thing. Not hard to tell it isn't exactly 'scale', but who cares, it worked.
- 'Doc

Acetone removes ink very well, even from your hands. Hope you don't have any scratches, it hurts like @#$$ too!

Hoghappy

Jun 21, 2007, 08:42 AM

Well…I’ve done about all the damage I think I can until I get my work station (used office desk) delivered this week. I had to give up my shipyard cause the first mate wanted to have a guest bedroom….geeez….who needs another bedroom? :p Anyway…here are some pics of the tug. My wife says I should have gotten a kit…what do you think? Although she looks bad right now, she is still ready to sail on a moments notice (wife and/or tug). That is the reason for the RTR….plus….this is my first electric boat since the 70s, and I have a very steep learning curve.

That is the “Prince de Neufchatel” in the background. She is in approximate scale (1/24) with the tug to give some perspective on her size in comparison to the tug. I think the tug is about 1/25 scale. As you can see…I removed almost everything including the glass. I will keep the bollards for now. The towing bollard is ABS but screwed through the glass deck and seems strong enough. Next to it is the new 15 amp push pull switch that will be under the capstan winch to be built up from a modified wooden thread spool.

My next question is this…I need to be able to have an emergency breakaway system for the tow line. If I am towing the schooner and a wind should come up, I will then have a situation where the schooner could pull the tug backwards and sink her. :eek: I need to have a way to release the line. I have a servo available for that but don’t want to reinvent the wheel unless I need to. What system are you guys using, if anything?

Robert

“Weevils…the breakfast of iron men sailing wooden ships!”

LtDoc

Jun 21, 2007, 09:06 AM

Robert,
I think a servo pulling a pin of some kind would probably be the simplest method. If you have the radio system to handle the 'extra' channel, and the 'extra' servo.
I was going to ask how a sailboat could sink a tug, but after seeing the size of each, I don't think I need to ask.
- 'Doc

Kmot

Jun 21, 2007, 11:23 AM

My wife says I should have gotten a kit!
Or at least bought it from the Tower "Scratch & Dent" page. :p

Mine was from there and all the deck parts were already removed. :D

rlboats2003

Jun 21, 2007, 03:04 PM

Looks like she carries 18 guns - Long 9 or 2 long 12's and 24 -32 lb Cannonades. Nice privateer - Do you have you letter so you can take ships legally that are at war with the United States.

Very nice - How big is it - is it set up for both fore and aft and square sails.

Happy Modeling,
Rich

Hoghappy

Jun 21, 2007, 03:34 PM

Do you mean a “Letter of Marque”? Funny you should ask…I actually do have one of those. My X had one made for me by some online outfit. Wanta see a pic of it? :p

The ship is armed with 16 each, 18 lb carronades and two 6 lb cannon, has three square sails, a driver (supplied as a double reefed version as well) a topmast gaff sail, a fore gaff sail, and three jibs. She has two sail servos (one, a sail winch, for the 3 jibs, gaff and driver sails, and one for the 3 squares) and one rudder servo.

Length on deck is 55.3" (1.4m)
Hull weight is 25 lbs (11.4 kg’s), Sailing weight is 47 lbs (21.4 kg's)
Ballast keel weighs 22 lbs (10.0 kg's)
Ready for sailing she measures (extreme) 97" long, 67" high and 33" wide (2.46m x 1.7m x .84m).

Here are some links:

A thread here about the ship.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262515

My site dedicated to the ship, her crew and the building of the model.

http://www.princedeneufchatel.com/

The manufacturer’s site.

http://www.modelsailingships.com/

Thanks for the compliment.

Robert

“Weevils…the breakfast of iron men sailing wooden ships!”

rlboats2003

Jun 22, 2007, 07:20 AM

Yea - I want to see your Letter of Marque, is it signed by President Madison.

I have an Emmy C, that some one in our club built that needs some help but she is all there just needs a little fairing and a hull repaint and then some electronics. I have 2 Emmy C. and an America kit unstarted all new. I love the America but have been thinking about back dating her and making a privateer out of her like the old lindberg Sandpiper- I am just a modest guy I wanted to do a long 12 on a piviot between the masts and 5 -12lb cannonades per side - one size amuniation. (of course getting 11 guns in War of 1812 America will be almost an act of God) I would like to rig her as a traditional Top sail schooner with squares only on the fore mast.

Read one to many books on this stuff - I have the old Revell 1/96 Constitution, the old Model Shipway Rattlesnake, Sultana, some AL Schooners all tucked away for when I can't walk along the side of the pond. Scale sail is kool.

I will check out your websites over the week end.
Happy Modeling,
Rich

Hoghappy

Jun 22, 2007, 07:52 AM

Yea - I want to see your Letter of Marque, is it signed by President Madison.

Rich…I hope you get them built and give us lots of cool pics. Depending on what scale your building in you may find what you need here:

http://www.modelexpo-online.com

If you need 1/24 scale, the manufacturer of my kit and a couple others of the period (a brig and frigate) may be able to hook you up. His name is Philip Roberts and is a very nice guy.

http://www.modelsailingships.com/

I think my Letter of Marque, is signed by President Madison, I will have to hunt it down and get a pic up for ya... ;)

Robert

Oh...check out this thread about the build up of some of the awsome square sail ships in the works here.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520465

Hoghappy

Jun 22, 2007, 08:35 AM

I pulled the prop shaft and rudder out last night. I increased the servo arm length to get a little more rudder. I also replaced the stock Aqua craft servo with a Hitec. The prop shaft is straight, but the prop (which I couldn’t get off, is the retaining nut threaded clockwise or counterclockwise), is in dire need of balancing. It has flashing on the blades, appears to have a slight wobble and needs sharpened. I found a great thread here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699752 and will try to clean it up. The rudder had no lubrication and the prop shaft only had what I gave it earlier (Quantum Hot Sauce). A new product and good stuff in my fish reels…here’s the skinny:

(Molecular Lubrication. Quantum Hot Sauce Reel Oil has unique qualities not found in ordinary reel oils. Low viscosity levels yield a freer rotation of moving parts, and its special formulation causes the oil to molecularly bond with the base metal. Super-low-friction polymers in Quantum Hot Sauce Reel Grease, along with exclusive tackifiers hold the grease on the wear surface and prevent migration in the gears and drags.)

I have come up with a simple solution to my tow line needs, an Emergency Break Away Tow Line System and will post pics as I get it built and tested.

I’m still waiting on the new shipyard (desk, chair and lamp) to arrive so I can get some serious work done. :p

Robert

michaele69

Jun 22, 2007, 03:10 PM

Hey Rich, is that the Sterling Emma C Berry you are talking about? I am just finishing one up that I started 30 years ago. It is now complete except for the electronics and running rigging. Boy making all this work on RC would have been so much simpler if I could have planned for all the gear before the deck was glued on!

How are you planning to lay out the sail controls?

Keep us posted on your refinish, some pictures would be nice.

Michael Edwards EC-12 1969

Brooks

Jun 24, 2007, 04:17 PM

Before you use your rescue tug on your Schooner, you might want to try some rescues of barges. There is a technique to it, and practice before you really need to rescue your beautiful ship might be helpful.

My setup: I have set up my barges (Rubbermaid's 15" drawer organizer trays) with an 8" weighted line dangling from the bow of the barge. I use a few brass washers for the weight. My tug has a 12' floating flyline towline with a 3 pronged grapnel at the end. The grapnel is supported by a streamlined styrofoam float, and the towline is weighted about 6" from the grapnel with brass washers. I approach the barge from upwind, then circle around it's stern and steam back upwind. This puts the towline under the barge. As I steam upwind, the towline, sweeping under the barge, catches the dangling bowline. I go slow after I see that the towline has engaged the bowline, to keep from jerking the towline and flipping off the bowline. Eventually the grapnel is pulled into the bowline, it catches, and away we go.

The towline pull on the bowline (before the grapnel gets there) forces the bowline to move out from the barge bow far enough for the grapnel to engage the bowline.

It seems to be futile to try to catch the bowline directly with the grapnel, particularly if there is any breeze causing the barge to drift downwind. Manuvering the grapnel to catch the towine is difficult - angles and distances are hard to make out if the barge is offshore any distance. Plus, the prongs of the grapnel will often hit the barge and move it aside before the prongs can engage the bowline. The sweep-under-from-leeward-method rarely fails to work, and is my favorite method. Usually the bowline wedges itself in the gap between prong and styrofoam float; constant tension on the towline then keeps the bowline in place. The only problem I run into is if the towline fails to clear the barge underneath, and thus pulls it to windward before the grapnel gets there.

The heavier the tow, the heavier the weight needed on the bowline. Otherwise, grapnel may not hold the bowline once the weight of the rescued vessel starts to tell. Or, the drifting vessel may stream the bowline at too shallow a depth for the sweeping towline to engage it. For my light barges, even knots in the towline will catch on the bowline and make up a good catch; I probably could dispose of the grapnel for 50% of my catches :-). For your much heavier Schooner, that is less likely to happen, I imagine.

Commercial barges will stream a rescue line while at sea, for the tug to pickup if the regular hawser parts. If you put a weighted bowline on your Schooner, to stream whilst sailing, I think there would be advantages to rescue. For one thing, it would be easier for your tug to tow the Schooner from its bow than from the stern (the usual catch point for model boat rescues; the towline target is entanglement in the rudder or prop). The sails will stream in the wind if the Schooner is towed from the bow, as opposed to catching the breeze and impeding the course home if the Schooner is towed from the stern. A large sloop can overpower a tug if towed from the stern, making rescue impossible if there is a breeze. Since you have a nice long bowsprit, you could even dangle your bowline from up there, away from the hull. This might make a sweep from windward feasible, allowing you to avoid potential prop/rudder entanglement. I'll rig my barge with a bowsprit and try this next trip to the pond. If you were worried about the strength of the bowsprit under tow, the bowline could be fastened to the hull, and merely lead along the bowsprit with weak thread ties.

Just some ideas, hope they help.

Massey

Jun 24, 2007, 07:47 PM

I dont know if you would want an emergency release unless the tow is sinking. Even then would your tow be heavy enough to drag the Atlantic under? I have used my Atlantic to tow sailboats back to shore a few times and yes the wind did catch me. The wind would either stop my forward momentum or even pull me back a little. If the wind is too high then dont try to pull against the wind but with or slightly abreast of the wind. The tow method that is listed by Brooks works great. I use the same type of hook to recover my hydroplanes and other boats including sailboats. The boat being recovered needs to have a protrusion under the hull like a rudder, keel, hook, or even a prop. I have been able to catch the Kort nozzle on one of my tugs that didnt have the power to come back in but that was VERY hard to get. The pictures below are my tow hook and a picture of my Vac-U-Tug pulling in my friend's Miss Vegas as it is sinking. No biggy on the sinking boat it would not go totally under so long as it is moving. Catching a stranded vessel is tricky and it takes a few tires even tho I have been doing it for a while, dont get discouraged if you dont get it right the first time. Try practicing close to shore where you can see what you are doing before trying it when you cant see the vessels that well.
I use a short length of line with a quick connect used in fishing to attach the hook and its line to my tugs. This line is only about 4 inches and does not foul my prop. The line on my hook is about 6 feet long giving me plenty of room for towing without causing too much feedback from my tow. If your line is too short then any wave, wind effects and any other motion of the towed ship is send to the line and into your tug making the tow very challenging. I hope this helps you with your tug.

Massey

P.S. dont use the crane mounted to the rear bollard to tow off of. It is not mounted very well and WILL come off if your ships jerk around a little.

Brooks

Jun 24, 2007, 07:48 PM

I was so curious if the bowsprit method would work, I dashed off to the pond :-). The bowsprit-hook-it-from-windward method does work. I thought it was harder than the sweep-under-from-leeward method, but that just may be due to lack of practice. With this method, I position the grapnel downwind of the barge, then work the tug to windward. Once past the bowsprit, I turn the tug cross wind, then after passing the barge, turn the tug downwind. This path makes the towline form a V pointing upwind, with the tug at one end and the grapnel at the other. The goal is to make the V touch the bowline long enough for the grapnel to be pulled into contact with the bowline so as to hook it.

The bowsprit method does have the a couple disadvantages:

A) As soon as the towline hits the bowline, the barge tries to spin away from the towline; several attempts to hook failed when this spinning away moved the bowline out of the "V" that the tug is trying to create. With a heavier target boat, this spinning away should not be such a problem (my barges are empty, probably weigh less than a pound).

B) You are chasing the barge as it drifts downwind; it's continually trying to escape the sweeping towline. In contrast, with the leeward method, the barge is converging on the sweeping towline. This drift cost me several failed attempts when the barge drifted out of the path of the grapnel. With practice, I think one could judge the initial position of the grapnel better to lessen the danger of the drifting away problem.

-----------
Another rescue method specifically for sailboats is to attach a hook on the side of the tug. The hook is meant to catch in the shrouds, allowing the tug to put the sailboat "on the hip." There are diagrams and examples of this recovery method on the Vac U Boat website. Hook height and design are specific to the sailboat.

http://www.vac-u-boat.com/

Hoghappy

Jun 25, 2007, 11:06 AM

Thanks for the information....very good stuff there. I may try hooking the shrouds...but I don't want to sail the schooner with anything hanging off the bowsprit into the water...first I want to try the following. I think I 'm going to try to snag the ballast plate by placing a small partially open eye (to make a hook) on the front of the ballast...hook facing down (See pic of ballast.) I will then try to pull the tow rope around the schooner letting it slide under the hull and get caught on the ballast hook. The schooner weight is almost 50lbs and I think it would easily sink the tug if a wind fills its sails and it takes off. The ship is very fast and the tug would be hard pressed to keep up.

I would only need to do a rescue in the event I get caught in irons again over a long period and say, the sun was about to set or the batteries about to die...or I run aground again and need a tow.

Captain Slick

Massey

Jun 25, 2007, 04:40 PM

yes if the schooner sinks it will take the tug down too. tho if the wind fills the sails it will not sink the tug it will just pull it around the lake a little. If you dont try to fight the wind you can get the schooner back to shore by going with the wind or abreast of the wind to bring it back into shore.

Massey

Brooks

Jun 25, 2007, 05:11 PM

You may be expecting too much to have your Atlantic pull your schooner off a sandbar. In real life, tugs usually need the assistance of ground tackle (anchors offshore and big winches) to rescue a stranded ship. Modern tugs, with 9000hp and Kort nozzles have changed this somewhat, reducing the need for ground tackle. My Vac U Tug has neither, and has trouble rescuing itself if I run it up on the beach :-).

You can figure out your tug's potential, though. Measure the bollard pull with a fishing scale. You will then compare it to the "ground effect" of the stranded schooner. Ground effect is the weight of the schooner supported by the sandbank due to lost displacement. You will need to make a displacement table for the schooner, measuring added weight vs draft. Then, you will be able to know, for example, that if the schooner raises up 1" due to running aground, there is a weight of, say 5# no longer supported by displacement but now supported by sand. The ground effect is multipled by a factor of somewhere between 0.3 to 1.5 (depending on the ground, mud=.3, rocks=1.5, etc) to figure out how much bollard pull is needed to pull off the stranded vessel. Eg. schooner aground 1" in mud: 5x0.3=1.5# bollard pull needed. The vacutug can generate anywhere from 3 to 10oz of pull, depending on motor and prop.
http://www.vac-u-boat.com/Modifications.htm

You might still have sucess if you could push or pull the Schooner side to side as you push or tow, helping break the suction of the ground (and reducing the factor mentioned above).

This is all covered in George Reid's "Shiphandling with Tugs", a textbook for tug operators. There are other techniques mentioned in Reid's book.

----------
I wasn't clear on the placement and orientation of your hook. If it's located near the bow, to catch a line swept from astern, then you may need to add guards of some sort to ensure the towline does not snag on the rudder. A floating towline will almost assuredly snag on the sternpost, so presumeably you are going to employ a sinking line, or at least a line with a portion of it sunk, like I use for my barges. After many hours of rescue practice, I can only say I caught the floating line in my prop once. I was surprized, thinking the line would foul more often - I run over it frequently, though I usually coast over it if I notice what's happening :-).

Massey

Jun 25, 2007, 07:38 PM

Yea adding a few bobbers near the tug is a good thing. It will help keep you from testing your underwater winch. Trust me they all work very well and leave you with 2 boats needing recovery. Kort Nozzles are just as good as open props for winding up tow lines so be careful.

Massey

Brooks

Jun 25, 2007, 08:19 PM

Reid says tugs with controllable pitch props are called "Hawser Suckers". The prop is always turning on this type of tug - forward, neutral, and reverse are set with the prop pitch. Apparently it is common to see even floating hawsers sucked into the prop, particularly since the normal deckhand (and skipper too) notion would be "tug stopped, hawser safe." Not something we have to worry about, yet, in the model world :-).

I am curious about the bollard pull of the Atlantic. It's 550 motor is bigger than the vacutug (385 standard), but the prop is listed by Tower as 3 blade 30mm while the vacutug has a 2 blade 44mm prop (optional 4 blade 44mm prop, which is what I use); both tugs use the same batteries. One vacutug owner has installed a 12volt, 545 motor (a 540 with 5 poles), and a 40mm 4 blade prop in his for more pull; he shows a photo of his tug moving two 3' sailboats (Fairwinds) in a "railroad carfloat" configuration.

Hoghappy

Jun 26, 2007, 08:25 AM

The schooner has nothing to grab onto below the waterline. She is a weed free sailing ship. I attached a pic of the rudder. I really like the idea of snagging the shrouds with something like a boat davit on the tug. I would not want to get tangled in the shroud and would want to be able to get free again.

This sounds like a great backup plan, and I will start thinking about how I want to add that feature to the tug.

Good stuff here...thanks guys! :)

Captain Slick

"Always choose the lesser of the weevils!" :eek:

Brooks

Jun 26, 2007, 04:46 PM

She may be weed-free while traveling forward, but that lower gudgeon will snag, or at least impede, a towline that's dragging along the keel from stern to bowhook, ie backwards wrt the hull. Like I wrote, even a knot will catch a towline.

You could defeat this snag by tug operation (I do this to make the towline miss the keels of my barges). A) make sure the towline is sunk deeper than the keel at the stern, to clear the snagpoint, by adding weights. B) then once the towline is past the snagpoint, angle the tug away from the schooner and increase speed enough to haul the towline closer to the surface so it drags along the keel until it catches your hook (or in my case, catches the dangling bowline). You might have to experiment with weights (and floats) placed on the towline to get the droop you want when the tug is moving slowly up the hull toward the bow.

Even if you snag the gugeon, you should be able to turn the tug away and free the line for another attempt. This turn-away manuver is one reason I find a long towline works better than a short one. If the towline is short, you don't have manuvering room.

Hoghappy

Jul 02, 2007, 09:00 AM

She got her maiden voyage today. I also got the “Emergency Breakaway” tow line system installed and it works great. I will get pics of that soon.

I had some electronic problems with her. She appeared to be signal losing signal while only about 50 yards away. She was shutting completely down. I may need to route the receiver antenna back up out of the hull? Also for some reason the ESC auto settings got confused and my throttle settings were not where they should have been. I’m not sure what is going on there, but everything worked fine in the ship yard before the first cruise. I may try the stock Aqua Craft ESC in it next time.

She has very weak thrust with the current prop although she was realistic at full throttle.

All in all…she will become a good little tug…with some more work.

Captain Slick

Hoghappy

Jul 05, 2007, 08:45 AM

Here are some pics of the tug boat Belinda on July 4th. I attempt to show the “Emergency Breakaway” system and the new antenna route. The tow system consists of a tube (former exacto knife handle”) going through the deck, hidden behind the bollard. Through this tube, which is tall enough to keep water from finding its way below deck, goes the tow rope which has a loop in the end. The loop is stuffed down the tube and a rod connected to a servo is released, after being retracted, to slide through the loop. The tow line is now secure until the servo control stick is pushed. The system works great. Only one little hiccup and that was solved by removing the 2 vent tubes on the fantail of the tug. The line got hung up on those a couple of times.

The purpose of this system was to have a release in case the tug got into more than it could handle…however today it got used for another job. It became the sailboat, race course, buoy boat. I used it to drop off and retrieve the buoys and she performed this task very, very well.

Also the first time I took out the tug I had some pretty serious problems with getting a good signal to the tug. She was cutting on and off at only 25 yards. I found the solution by removing the antenna from inside the hull and routing it up inside the smoke stack. This gave it some height and a good signal for the receiver and is still completely hidden.

Another great day of sailing for Captain Sunshine and me, as seen here proudly posing with her racing yacht Crimson Tide. :p

Captain Slick

Brooks

Jul 05, 2007, 09:23 AM

Very gratifying to use your tug for real work, isn't it :-). Placement And pickup of buoys is neat.

I like your quick release, I'll install one like yours when I get the tug back in the shop. A bit of sponge located below the tube would corral any drips that might get in. Most of the water on my deck comes from me splashing as I wade around the tug adjusting lines etc. You might consider pinching closed the barbs on your grapnel hook. I'd dull the points, too, to avoid scratching paint on your Schooner (could not tell from the photo, perhaps you've already filed them). Another hook, with longer arms, might be helpful for rescuing other boats; or you could use the toilet bowl float method (see the vac u boat/vac u tug site for details).

My current towline is floating flyline a)3 fathoms long,
b)has a float about a foot from the stern, along with the float on the hook,
c)has a weight of brass washers about 2 feet aft from the stern float.

The flyline's float and weight arrangement help ensure that the line will be sunk and clear the hull of my barges when I round up on them to pass the line underneath their hulls. Since the weight is so light, I can drag the line to the surface, if I choose, if I go fast with the tug.

The dangling bowline on the barge (that I attempt to snag with the hook) is about 15" long, lightly weighted with a couple small brass washers. More weight would make the snagged line less likely to pull free under tow. I leave the weight light so that the bowline does not anchor the barge in shallow water when I release it (I like it to drift offshore so I can then go rescue it).

Catch and release of barges is fun; if I circle clockwise to snag the barge, I find that circling counterclockwise and bumping the barge will usually free it from the hook, so I can go rescue it again. I have 2 barges tied in tandem. When the tieline is short, I can rescue the pair simply by shooting between them with the tug, skipping the towline. If the tieline is long, however, the shooting method does not work as I find that the tug often overuns the tieline and snarls it in the prop. Then it's time for the Kayak Rescue :-).

toesup

Jul 05, 2007, 10:27 AM

" Captain Sunshine and the sailboats "

What? there are Sailboats?... :o

Hoghappy

Jul 05, 2007, 11:09 AM

...yes it is great fun actually using the tug to do some meaningful work. :)

As for the hook...it was a very quick and dirty solution as I needed something to use immediately. I found an old saltwater treble hook and I did grind and file it nice and round and smooth to include the barbs. It is made of a very hard galvanized metal and is not very bendable. I will most likely not use this on the schooner, rather try a side snag of her shroud lines using some sort of smooth ended davit or "L" shaped arm so that I can get unhooked again.

The tug is lacking in thrust, and I don’t see her pulling that schooner anywhere. She may be able to assist her in a no wind situation though. Maybe a motor/gearbox/prop upgrade is in the tugs distant future.

I found that my hooked retrieval line needs to be about twice as long as it now is. I did run across the tow line once with no entanglement in the prop due to the excellent design of this tug and the tension on the line when I did it.

Captain Slick

"Always choose the lesser of the two weevils!"

Kmot

Jul 05, 2007, 11:20 AM

" Captain Sunshine and the sailboats "

What? there are Sailboats?... :o
Yeah, I was looking for the sailboats too. :D

Umi_Ryuzuki

Jul 05, 2007, 12:26 PM

The local Oregon Model Yacht Club races Thunder Tiger Victoria Class sailboats.
The look like simple kits, and looking over their boats, there are quite a few mods these guys make to their boats.

It looks like an easy kit to get in to sailing, and it is convenient to have an instant
venue in which to sail, and compete. I am not sure if other model yacht clubs race
this class, but it is worth checking before purchasing a sailboat. ;)
I think it may be the "springer" of sailboats. :p

http://www.victoriarc.org/classclubs.htm
http://www.omyc.org/

Brooks

Jul 05, 2007, 09:23 PM

You could predetermine the max wind your tug would be able to handle, in a manner similar to figuring out it's ability to haul the Schooner off the sandbank:
1. measure the bollard pull of the tug using a fisherman's scale.
2. measure the windage of the Schooner, ie it's pull on the fisherman's scale, when sitting at anchor at various wind speeds.
3. As long as the windage is less than the bollard pull, the tug should be able to handle the job.

The farther apart the 2 numbers are, the faster the tug will get the tug&schooner combo up to "hull" speed. The hull speed will be reached when the form drag of the 2 hulls plus the windage drag of the 2 boats equals the bollard pull. Once the the thrust and drag vectors are equal, no further acceleration is possible, for the mathematically inclined :-)

As you know, it takes very little force to move something floating in water. Even a pixy tug would be able to move your schooner in still air, provided you gave it enough time to accelerate the combo. The hull speed of the pixy tug combo would be less than that of your tug&schooner because the form drag and windage drag both increase with speed, and the equilibrium point would be lower for the pixy.

A long, slick hull like your schooner's should be towable with little force in still air, I would think. Anyone with a valuable sailboat like your's has an interest in rescue techniques. If you were to figure out the numbers and capability for tug and Schooner, I think we'd all be interested, particularly Phillip so he could put the info in his advertisements.
------------
Even if you find that the tow ablity of your tug is limited to light airs, I would not be too discouraged. Your tug may still perform useful rescue service. For instance, if you lost RC control of the Schooner, you could still sail the Schooner back home by using the tug to turn the Schooner on course by pushing on it's bow. Depending on the sail configuration when the RC crapped out, you might have to wear ship, rather than tack, with the tug's assistance. And your zigzag upwind might not be composed of equal angle legs if your squares are set (since they'd be aback for one set of legs). But even a sawtooth recovery course taking lots of time might be preferable to having to chase the ship downwind to a lee shore.

Brooks

Jul 05, 2007, 09:51 PM

While on the subject of rescue, may I suggest that you install a marker buoy on your Schooner, with a line long enough to reach the surface of whatever water body you are traversing. The buoy could be a freely detaching fitting of some sort, something you'd normally find on deck. The line needn't be strong enough to haul the ship back to the surface, just something strong enough to support a buoy to let you know where to dive to recover the ship. Accidents happen: I read of a guy whose schooner was run down by a paddle boat - it remained floating, fortunately, but if it had sunk, a marker buoy would have been comforting, I bet.

pkboo

Jul 06, 2007, 08:52 AM

Yeah, I was looking for the sailboats too. :D
It looks as if everybody is turning blind here, or HogHappy is just a lousy pic´s taker ...... but yeah huh......sailboats.......?

Hoghappy

Jul 06, 2007, 09:13 AM

...I continued this conversation over on the Prince de Neufchatel thread.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262515

Captain Slick

Hoghappy

Jul 06, 2007, 09:50 AM

It looks as if everybody is turning blind here, or HogHappy is just a lousy pic´s taker ...... but yeah huh......sailboats.......?

Enjoy...the Captain says she's going to beat me for posting that pic... :eek:

I guess I will take my punishment like the sailor I am... :p

Captain Slick

"Always choose the lesser of the two weevils!"

pkboo

Jul 06, 2007, 10:27 AM

Capt´n Slick, LOL, there´s no other way but taking that punishment :) Eugène

Ghost 2501

Jul 06, 2007, 01:03 PM

Hoghappy

Jul 10, 2007, 09:13 AM

Progress notes on the Tug. Last night I got her sanded down and ready for new paint. I completely sanded her to remove all the shine I could and prep her for the grey after I bondo filled the holes and blemishes from the removal of all the plastic junk parts.

I made some structual changes. I moved pilot house forward and cut and moved the stack forward. This will give more room to walk behind the pilot house and more room for a fire monitor behind the stack. Aft, next to the main bollard, is the first attempt at a winch made from a wooden thread spool and some balsa. This covers the power switch.

I would love to add a sound mod but since I can't remove the ballast forward, I don't think she will handle the extra weight. :mad:

Captain Slick

Hoghappy

Jul 17, 2007, 09:41 AM

Here are the latest progress notes and updated pics on my Atlantic Harbor refit. This weekend I managed to install a Turbo Diesel under the hood. I decided to mount the speaker and JJC Turbo Cat Diesel sound module to the overhead of the main house. The speaker is bolted to a hardwood frame which is epoxy’d to the overhead. The sound module is velcro’d to the overhead…both are removable and the connections are all plug in. I also drilled a small hole in the hardwood frame to run my receiver antenna through, allowing me to run it up the inside of the stack and into a ½ ‘’ tube near the top of the smoke stack where the end of the wire is bent over after going through this holding tube to keep it in place during operation. I decided against cutting and placing a connector on the antenna. I may want to change receivers down to road and not want it cut up. I’ve also heard of reception problems that can be caused by changing the characteristics of the length and/or resistance properties of antennas. So I chose to not mess with it at all. Everything is painted flat black in the stack, to include the wire, to hide it from the eye. This thing sounds awesome now! Oh…I ended up going back to the factory ESC, weak reverse and all, after trying 2 different ESC upgrades and not being satisfied with their performance. I can live with the weak reverse for now.

This tug is a day to day, with no real final look in mind. I’ve changed colors a couple of times already and what you see in the pics now, is the way it looks now, but not necessarily the way it will end up. I moved the wheel house forward then moved it back cutting off the aft end of the wheelhouse deck overhang flush with the bulkhead. I plan to install brass railing and stanchions (on back order) around the wheel house and around the 01 deck. I’m still struggling with ladders. I’m not going to use the cheesy ones that came with this boat and so far what I ordered from Harbor I’m not too crazy about either. Then there is the problem of where to place them. Do I cut out place/places in the 01 level over hang for them to go up? I don’t know how to make my own ladders, but I may have to learn. Aft you will find my 2nd attempt at a capstan made of a modified wooden spool and some wood filler. I am on a huge learning curve with boat building and trying to learn how to paint too. I want the tug to look used. I don’t have an airbrush so everything will look like it has multiple coats of paint (which it does) and I want it to look like it’s patched as it would if it needed to keep the rust at bay without a total new out of the shipyard look. This is my learning how to do everything boat, and I am having a lot of fun with it. I have some Rustall and will get to play with that too. When I get good at everything I will go back to my schooner with upgrades and weathering.

Here is additional info on the matched 15 watt speaker and 15 watt Module:

The JJC Master Module incorporates a 15 Watt audio amplifier, advanced power management (so you don’t have to disconnect from the power supply) and of course the master unit also has its own sounds.
A speaker is connected to the master unit via a screw down terminal block, with connection to the RC receiver using a standard servo lead.
To connect additional sounds (and mix them through the master unit), Slave units are connected via a 3.5mm plug.

Master Specification
* Directly connected to a spare receiver channel (or to a Y connector on the same channel the ESC plugs into so you dont need a extra channel to use this)
* The pitch control allows you to personalize the sound to your model.
* Individual volume control for each unit.
* Amplifier power supply range ( 6 to 18 volts).
* Integrated high quality 15 watt audio amplifier with thermal protection and automatic power-down function.
* Low power consumption from the receiver battery (>5 mA)
* Light weight (32 grams)

FRS7S High Performance 8ohm Speaker
This speaker is only 2.5 inches in diameter with a frequency response of 120-20,000 Hz and 15 watts of power.

This thing has a built in electronic starter sound that also engages the engine sound upon just one click of the transmitter stick...the engine sound throttles up and down and as you throttle up and down...then it slowly idles down and completely shuts off the engine noise after while when at all stop. Way cool! ;)

My thanks go to everyone here for all the help and ideas for this project.

Captain Slick

Hoghappy

Jul 26, 2007, 01:31 PM

Ok…I was going to wait until I finished her, but with parts on back order that may be a while, so I’m going to post now.

Starting from the bow, here are the changes (so far) to the tug. Keep in mind weathering is still to come. Removed a ton of plastic parts from all over this tug. New bow fender. New winch…moved bow bitts aft a little and straightened them up. Removed wood block (front latch). Added small plastic speakers fore and aft. Replaced plastic railing with brass…aft railing on backorder. Added wheel to wheel house…total buildup of inside of wheelhouse is planned for later. Added radar cover on top of wheel house. New mast built up (from wood dowel, tongue depressor, tooth pics and brass). Rotated navigation lamps to correct position. Placed fire extinguisher on aft bulkhead of wheelhouse…still have to make a holder for it. Cut overhang off wheelhouse deck. Cut and moved stack forward an inch or so. Added fire monitor…all plumbed and ready for pump later. Fire hoses added to housing bulkheads. Aft is a new capstan made up from a wood spool and putty used to hide power switch. Added bottles and barrel and rope coil. New paint. I’m waiting on decals for the name, new tire fenders, railing, and an American flag. I need the railing before I do the ladders and some other details. I would like to have everything in place before I start the weathering, but I may start without it if the stuff doesn’t come soon. I'm sure I missed some stuff and there is still a lot to do, but it’s making progress and looks heck of a lot better than it did.

Captain Slick

BTW...that is Captain Sunshines "Motley Crew" visiting the tug. ;)

Hoghappy

Jul 27, 2007, 08:10 AM

Here are some better quality pics from last night after I added tow lines forward and replaced the small "1mc' speakers with the larger ones.

Captain Slick

Kmot

Jul 27, 2007, 10:48 AM

Cap'n Slick, you have certainly enhanced this tug nicely! I like the little chain. What gauge is it? Where did you find it?

Hoghappy

Jul 27, 2007, 11:13 AM

...my first bash job...I'm havin fun! :D

Sorry on the chain...I looked but it was not one of the parts used items listed on my schooner site...I think I got it from tower...not sure...it's brass...but that is all I can remember.

I just ordered the horn mod for the tug today too...I just found out that the replacement tire fenders are on a 6 month backorder...gee I wish I had been told that 5 weeks ago when I ordered them. So I ordered some others. Still waiting on the railing too.

BTW... I need to build a floating boat dock next. I like the one y'all use...got any construction pics?

Captain Slick

Brooks

Jul 28, 2007, 01:09 AM

Your tug is really looking nice.

Re rescue of becalmed Prince: I think, based on my experience ship-handling John's steam tramp, that it might be easier to push the Prince back to shore with your tug than I thought. That is, you might not need to hook her with a towline. The long hull and the inertia of the tramp change the pushing characteristics in a good direction, compared to trying to push the light, short barges I have. It is relatively easy to get the tramp moving forward by pushing a little behind center of the tramp. Steering is accomplished by letting the tug slide aft or scooting it forward of center, depending on which way you want to the tramp to turn. The inertia and long hull track well, making the system less flighty and making it easier to control. I'd think your Prince's hull would track even better.

There is even a sweet spot aft near the counter where the tug can push with it's hull aligned mostly with the tramp's hull, and you can build up some speed. It takes practice, of course, but that is fun in itself....Something to do if the wind dies :-)

I use a wetted fiber bow bumper, but a soft, sticky-ish rubber bow bumper would work too, I bet. That silicon rubber used for hot-plate pads to protect the table top might do the job. You could temporarily mount a piece of this material over your scale bumpers before you set out to push the Prince home.

Hoghappy

Aug 02, 2007, 08:18 AM

Another trip to the pond with some mixed results. I still have major reception issues. Even with the antenna routed up into the stack…she was cutting out at as little as 50 feet. At one point, when trying to retrieve a marker buoy, she lost signal and restarted at full reverse on her own. This caused her to back over the tow line and wrap it around the prop. She then blew her 10 amp fuse and need to be rescued by the Bristol Bay. The Bay has no bumpers so she beat the tug up pretty good.

After I got her home I field tested her with the transmitter from the Bay swapping out crystals…no change…she would lose signal, with the transmitter antenna down at only 30 or so feet. That eliminated the transmitter. I then swapped out the receiver with the Bay. She still cut out at about 30 feet. That tells me it is not another bad radio, (I received a bad Hitec transmitter and had to get it swapped out).

So…I routed the receiver antenna up through the wheel house and up the back of the mast. I notice even a 1 ½ inch difference in antenna height makes a big difference in the field tests. At 7 ½ inches above the wheel house I still had a little glitching. I now have about 9 inches of height above the wheel house roof and it seems ok…only another trip to the pond will tell for sure. I don’t know how some are able to just route their antenna in the hull and get it to work…mine sure don’t. :(

I still have JJC sound module problems too. It cuts out. I think it is a bad chip recording allowing a small pause between sound loops. Any way…another one is on the way along with a 3.5mm patch cord to link the new horn slave module to the master module. The site I bought these from did not mention or even list the cord. Be sure you get one if you get a slave unit for your master module…they do not come with it evidently.

I also placed a piece of Saran Wrap across the speaker to protect it, between the speaker and the overhead it bolts to. I notice no real difference in volume or sound quality. The sound is plenty loud, and I don’t even have it turned up all the way. It sounds way cool. :D

I attached a couple of new pics showing the antenna mods and the new tire fenders, before sanding and after. I cut the tires back off last night as I have decided that I don’t like them…at least not right now. I’m still waiting on the railing and have to do some ladders.

Captain Slick

Brooks

Aug 02, 2007, 11:19 AM

I think your tires would look better if they were not evenly spaced. The photos I have of tugs show the tires bunched up (touching each other) at the bow, closely spaced, (though not touching) along the forward quarter, and spaced out further apart farther aft. There are no tires aft of the cabin. No doubt one could find photos showing a different spacing. I find the lack of symetry to be more aesthetically pleasing, though.

Deans makes a compact antenna, perhaps you could install one to increase radio range w/o needing a wire dangling topside? I don't really notice a black wire running up a black mast once the tug is 10' offshore, however. Separating the antenna from electrically noisy items is important. The ESC and motor would be the culprits here, I think.

LtDoc

Aug 02, 2007, 12:22 PM

Antennas. In almost every case, longer is better to some extent. Like using a bigger net to catch fish, probably not always needed, but it certainly doesn't hurt (except the looks maybe).
You can make an antenna shorter if the received signal is strong enough. 'Compact' receiving antennas require stronger signals (or shorter distances) to work. There are no 'miracle' antennas, unfortunately, only those who's properties you might not be aware of.
Got glitches? Do all the noise suppression you can possibly do on any frequency band except 2.4 Ghz, sort of. UHF/SHF bands just aren't as susceptible to man made noises (yet) as lower ones. At least from an RF point of view! They are just as susceptible from the power side.
Have fun!
- 'Doc

Brooks

Aug 02, 2007, 06:32 PM

If you are getting only 30' range with your regular Rx antenna, then something is seriously wrong (most radio manuals will tell you that the Tx retracted-antenna range should be greater than 30')

Deans makes base-loaded, compact antennas for 72 and 75 mhz.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKX47&P=7

It *was* my understanding that the base-loaded Deans antenna did not affect radio range. However, these 2 sites feel otherwise:
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-1765.html
This guy actually tested antennas:
http://www.rc-cam.com/ant_exp.htm

I think that boaters could use Deans antennas w/o fear, but that's just an opinion. I run Spektrum in my tug, and antenna appearance and radio range are not factors, at least on the pond I traverse.

Captain Bill

Aug 03, 2007, 07:17 AM

I installed the Deans antenas on two of my tugs and I cut the antenea wire like they said in the instructions and they work fine. They also add some realism to the apearance of the tug. Most tugs have atleast three anteanas on the top of the roof. :)

Hoghappy

Aug 03, 2007, 09:15 AM

I may try the Deans if this last attempt doesn't work. I have the anntenna higher now the the Deans will put it....so I would think it would get better reception the way it is now. I ran it up a tube in the house so I don't have to remove the wheel house from the deck house to route it each time. I never had so much reception problems in any RC model.

When I turn on the receiver and go to the first notch on the throttle, that is all it takes to get things glitching...the prop is not even rotating until the throttle is moved several notches.

Here is a newby question...is there a signal booster available....light and cheap?

Capt. Slick

Brooks

Aug 03, 2007, 11:45 AM

Sounds like a dirty, electrically speaking, ESC. Try wrapping it in Al foil to see if this stops the glitching. If so, then a metal screen wrap may intercept the RF crap, yet still allow the ESC to get cooling air. Hardwares sell plastic screening, too, so be sure to get the metal kind if you are going to try this fix.

Tx output is regulated by law; I have never seen a signal boster, but there's lots I have not seen :-).

Hoghappy

Aug 03, 2007, 11:57 AM

Hey Brooks...I will try that foil wrap. I've tried 3 different ESCs to include the stock one. I don't have enough current draw to heat them up much with the set up I'm using right now (stock motor/prop) , so I don't think heat is even an issue. Would wrapping the wires (servo and power) in foil help too?

I hadn't thought about the FCC transmission rules. I guess I was thinking along the lines of cable TV boosters and trying to help boost from the reception end...must be Friday! ;)

bagedtaco

Aug 07, 2007, 04:50 PM

i was thinking about ordering one of these to play with at the pond near my apartment. i haven't had time to work on my scratch built shrimper.

was thinking about this or the southhampton tug just to get me over the hump till i can finish the shrimp trawler.

Kmot

Aug 10, 2007, 06:01 PM

How about a $600 Atlantic tug?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200139296725&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Hoghappy

Aug 10, 2007, 06:10 PM

Oh my...is that a park bench? :D

Capt. Slick

Actually...after reading about what it has.... they probubly have more than $600.00 in this boat. I think mine is getting close to that by now too.

Hey...It does have a picnic table too!

THE EQUIPMENT LIST IS LONG, STARTING WITH WORKING NAVIGATION LIGHTS AND SPOTLIGHT, WORKING AFT DECK AND BOW DECK LIGHTS, RUBBER TIRES AS FENDERS, SCALE ACCESSORIES INCLUDE: SITTING BENCH ON BOW, DOG, BRASS RAILING, WORKING PILOT HOUSE INSIDE LIGHTS, FOUL WEATHER BOOTS, HANGING PLANTS, MOORING ROPE, MOP, BUCKET, SPONGES, GARDEN HOSE WASH DOWN, LADDER, PICNIC TABLE, ALUMINUM FUEL BARRELS, BRASS SHIPS BELL, DECK CHAIR, CUSTOM WOOD STAND,CORK DECKING, ETC.

THE RUNNING GEAR CONSISTS OF A SINGLE HIGH QUALITY 550 CLASS MOTOR, NOVAK 40 AMP REVERSING DIGITAL SPEED CONTROL, BRASS PROP, AUTOMATIC BILGE PUMP, 12 VOLT 7 AMP BATTERY, JJC ELECTRONICS SOUND MODULE, FULL ENGINE SOUND, PLUS HORN, ENGINE SOUND INCLUDES START UP SOUNDS, AND PROPORTIONAL RPM INCREASE WITH THROTTLE MOVEMENT, ALL ADJUSTABLE, CUSTOM SPEAKER ENCLOSURE, WATER COOLING JACKET AROUND MOTOR, WITH DEDICATED ELECTRIC PUMP FOR COOLING WATER, SWITCHABLE, ( IN FAR REAR OF B0AT, NEXT TO RUDDER), LEAD BALLAST TO BRING TO PROPER WATER LINE. RADIO IS A 6 CHANNEL FM FUTABA, WITH NICADS. THE BOAT RUNS GREAT, ZERO ISSUES. BATTERY LASTS ABOUT 1 1/2 HOURS OF RUNNING. AND, THE ITALIAN FLAG ON THE STERN :)

Soar Master

Aug 10, 2007, 06:19 PM

I can't see the "brass prop" in the pictures. I wonder if it is the stock brass looking prop? :eek:

Hoghappy

Aug 11, 2007, 10:49 AM

Well….I braved the heat this morning and tried some more experiments on my tug to try to solve the reception problem. I double checked the motor/caps and they are there and appear ok. But like I've said...the problem is still there with out the motor even turning.

I field tested with antenna (receiver) down and also up the mast….no noticeable difference when the transmitter antenna is down. As soon as I turn away, with my back to the tug, and start walking… the tug which is just turned on and not given any signals, starts it’s motor sound module and blows it's horn which is on a separate channel. The motor also revs and the rudder moves too. If I pull out the transmitter antenna, everything settles down until I get across the yard. I tried unplugging both of the servos with no effect.

I have to tell ya….I’m stumped! It makes no difference which transmitter, receiver or ESC (tried 3) I use. It makes no difference if the ESC is shielded with foil or not. It does this at home and at the pond. The receiver antenna does not cross any other wires, and I've moved the receiver around while testing.

The more height I get on the antenna, the better is seems to be, but I am 19 inches above the water now and out of wire. :(

Capt. Slick

Brooks

Aug 11, 2007, 03:59 PM

First, given your 2 tx's, 2 rx's and 3 esc's, you have 12 combinations to test. I'd recommend you make a result matrix to be sure you have in fact tested all 12. If you have more than one flakey element in there, you'll never id it w/o a matrix; at least that's been my experience in debugging systems.

Second, Assuming you have tested all 12 possibilities, the only common elements to the failure appear to be the tug's: a) motor, b)wiring, c) battery. These will also have to be tested. I'd set up the radio+esc+a similar motor on the bench next to your tug (which is dead, no battery), then perform the range/glitch test. This is to id any radio freq crap floating around separate from the tug's involvement.

If all goes well, then it's time to start testing the tug's 3 elements separately. Remove the tug's motor and substitute it, on the bench, for the "similar motor" you already proved works fine. Could be your tug's motor has a bad capacitor (or bad cap solder joint to the motor), which is enhansing, rather than reducing, radio freq crap generation. If the tug's motor works ok on the bench, then the wiring or tug battery are at fault. If you have a broken wire in there somewhere (tug, rx, antenna), vibration could make it generate rf crap. Or, if the elements don't use the same ground, that could cause problems.

I left out servos and the sound module interactions, but you could, and probably should, add them to the matrix. Gets complicated :-( Any part could be giving feedback to the rx that causes problems.

12 matrix:

A. tx1+rx1 esc1, esc2 esc3
B. tx1+rx2 ditto
C. tx2+rx1 ditto
D. tx2+rx2 ditto

eg results (I just made up):
A. good, good, bad
B. good good, good,
C. good good good
D. bad, bad, good.

Hope this helps.

MILLERTIME

Aug 11, 2007, 11:50 PM

Relisted, Starting bid: US $400.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200140929062

Hoghappy

Aug 12, 2007, 10:24 AM

At that price...to include a 6 channel Futaba...he has to be taking a loss.

Capt. Slick

Hoghappy

Aug 12, 2007, 06:24 PM

Today I tried some more things to find the problem with my reception. I completely unplugged the motor , so now I am 100% positive that it is not the culprit. Two completely different transmitters, two completely different receivers, three ESCs and I moved the battery outside the tug and disconnected and powered up off a outside source.

I pretty much tried everything again to include a complete rewire moving the receiver completely out of the hull and away from the motor, ESC and battery. The receiver is now all the way forward in the cabin and attached to the overhead. The antenna goes a few inches across the overhead and straight up through the wheelhouse and up the mast. I gained another 4 inches doing this so that may help some more when on the water. It makes no difference in the field tests.

I have tried replacing everything more than once and am convinced that I will never find the problem and just have to live with it. Here are a couple of pics of the current setup. That yellow looking wire along side the red antenna is actually a shadow.

Capt. Slick

Soar Master

Aug 12, 2007, 06:31 PM

Radio problems Suck! :censored:

Hoghappy

Sep 04, 2007, 09:50 AM

Here are some new progress pics.

Capt. Slick

Brooks

Sep 04, 2007, 02:34 PM

Have you tried pushing or pulling your Schooner? Curious how it worked out, as I am planning a 4 masted bark mod to my fire tramp (free sailer), and will likely need to pull the ship back to the harbor. Not sure my tug has enough umphf.

Hoghappy

Sep 04, 2007, 02:48 PM

Have you tried pushing or pulling your Schooner?

No Brooks...yesterday was the first time they have met up on the high seas. As you could see in pics in the Prince de Neufchatel thread, it was a 5-15 mph variable day and I had no opportunity to get the 2 together...although the Bristol Bay managed to do a dead center full speed T-Bone into the schooner.

I only hope to have to use the tug for rescue in a dead calm or a grounding. If I do ground the schooner, I feel I will more than likely have to try to encircle with a kite or fish line and run back to shore so I can pull both ends of the line. The mud here is like quicksand and sticks like glue so I don't feel confident the tug could push or pull that heavy plate ballast out of it.

It was all I could do to sail both ships without a collison and finally had to get Capt. Sunshine to pilot the tug back in for me while I concentrated on the schooner....she is way more than a hand full. I think you will need to have several plans ready for rescue in case the first couple don't work.

Capt. Slick

Brooks

Sep 04, 2007, 08:22 PM

Sure looks beautiful on the water, both boats. And running 2 at once, whoo boy, you are The Skipper! I have trouble just running the tug and a tow: yesterday, I was so focused on placing the tramp at the mooring, (with audience, of course), that I forgot to keep an eye on the tug on the other end of the line, and ran it aground on the beach, hoho.

My "Pamir-like" will only be 3' long, more HO scale than anything else. The subdivision's pond is 3 acres, with a path all the way around. So, rescue will only be needed if it she hits the Sargasso Sea(weed), or get's taken aback. I used to just swim for the brigantine when she got in trouble, once racing a dog who thought the brigantine would make a good retrieve :-). But it's always wise to have a backup rescue plan, I agree.

jwilliam

Sep 09, 2007, 12:52 PM

I am just wondering how these compare.
I know that Allantic has a bigger motor and is about 8" longer and one is a kit vs. being already built.
But then it seems like people are taking out the ESC and changing the radio anyway.
It would be a second boat for me after building the Footy Kittiwake, which I have been very happy with.
I was thinking about buying/building something that I could just putt around with. And maybe rescue my Footy, but haven't needed it.
So why would you want one vs. the other?
I figure the cost wouldn't be too far apart.
I have a DX6, but I am thinking I want a different radio so that I can run them both at the same time (ie. two people).
I know the Atlantic has more detail parts, but that doen't matter a lot to me.
My wife does like to see the little people on the boats though.
Thanks!

Brooks

Sep 09, 2007, 03:38 PM

People have fun with both tugs. I have only the vacutug. The smaller vacutug would handle the Footy easily, based on the larger boats we have been handling/rescuing with it this summer. I don't recall the bollard pull of the Atlantic tug, but I am pretty sure it would be more than the vacutug; so, if you are thinking of getting a big ship sometime in the future, perhaps the Atlantic tug would give you more future options. I like my vacutug a lot, and would have no hesitation recommending it to you, though. The plans are superb, as is the after-sales help from Phil Pace.

An electric tug only requires 2 channels, rudder and motor (a boat-friendly esc will deliver forward & reverse on one channel; I like the Mtronics Marine viper 15). So, you *could* run both your Footy and your tug off 1 radio :-).
esc:
http://www.mtroniks.net/mtroniks_SC_products.asp?CategoryID=1&SubCategoryID=3
my vacutug:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=682182

jwilliam

Sep 09, 2007, 05:52 PM

Brooks

Sep 09, 2007, 10:49 PM

I believe the Mtronics esc's are being upgraded with new features. The names were confusing to me when I bought mine back in April. I imagine they will have what the vacutug needs, it just may have a new name. The turns in the vacutug standard motor are immaterial - it only draws 1 amp @ 7.2volts, way below the amperage a racing motor would draw, so you don't need to worry about that critera when choosing an esc for this model. One nice thing about the low power requirement is long run times; I have run the tug on a 2000mah 7.2 nicd for 5 hours of pond time before the battery started to get too low to accomplish a towing mission. Part of that 5 hours included mooring time, with the tug still turned on, so I would not claim a 5 hour cruise.

jwilliam

Sep 10, 2007, 01:22 AM

So I take it those are 6-cell packs.
I have a few 2/3A 7-cell 1200mah & 1500mah packs that I use in my airplane.
But they are more for high current
They only weigh about 6 oz.
So do you know which of the ESC's I listed above you have?
I am thinking that either one would work.
One will take up to 8-cells and the other 10-cells, so I would think the cheaper one would be fine.
I did see the Rental mod. that takes out some of the weight and added a 6-cell pack that is 9,500 mah. But they don't list a cost.
I think it would be over kill for me.

Hoghappy

Sep 10, 2007, 09:09 AM

jwilliam

Sep 10, 2007, 12:58 PM

The reasons for my changing electronics was more because I wanted more channels. I wanted a working tow line release and sound mods. So while I was changing radios I decided to go with a 6 volt sealed lead acid battery to power everything with too. One thing led to another. I wanted something different and that is why I made all the changes.

The radio and esc that comes supplied with the boat work just fine. Just drop in batteries and go. :)

Capt. Slick

Capt. Slick
Tell me more about your battery. Do you have a link to something like it?
What size is it, how long does it last, how do you recharge it, how long does it take to recharge.
Thanks!
Jerry

MILLERTIME

Sep 10, 2007, 04:07 PM

I'm working on my tug. Some questions.
1. How did you do the water pick up for the water cannon?
2. Did anyone remove any of the battest weights?
if so how. Pictures would help.

Thank you
Don M.

Hoghappy

Sep 10, 2007, 04:21 PM

Jerry...

The 6 volt battery I use is available at Lowes or most any home Home Depot or similar store. I paid about $15.00 for a 4.5 amp hour one. Look in the emergency lighting section. You can also get them online at

http://www.batteryplex.com/powersonic.cfm

This one is similar to the I use in 2 of my boats.

http://www.batteryplex.com/powersonic-sla-detail.cfm?model=PS%2D640%20FP%20%20%28replaced%20 with%20F1%29

I recommend you put a fuse in line somewhere in case you wrap a line around your prop. It will prevent a melt down. Saved me already! ;)

I can run for hours and still have plenty. A smaller amp/hour one will probably work fine too.

Millertime...

I have not hooked up the pump/fire monitor or drilled a hole for it yet. When I do it will be port side just below the waterline with a screen over the hole.

I could not remove my ballast...it is in the boat with an unbelievable amount of glue. My tug is able to handle all the extra stuff even without removing the ballst. Look at the thread for pics of the arrangement of things and ask me any thing that is unclear.

Capt. Slick

jwilliam

Sep 10, 2007, 07:38 PM