Where are all the 80"+ 3D electrics ?

[Greg_Granville]

There don't seem to be many 'built-for electric power' 3D aerobats in the larger than 80" size range. Sure, lots of folks are converting 27%, 30% or larger gas planes, but they all seem needlessly heavy for electric power. The only thing I've found is the Accord 2200. Sure like the way that thing flies - saw it at NEAT last year. But nobody seems to be buying them? No information or comments anywhere to be found aside from the blurb on the NESail webpage. They have them on sale right now, but even so, it's rather pricey for such a homely looking airplane.
Is there anything else out there that fits the 3D aerobat category that is built for electric power and flies as light as this plane does?

[GWRIGHT]

It's a difficult market. There is a small group that want them and are willing to pay the price for a kit and build. However, the vast majority want an ARF, and to do an ARF at a price that is marketable, you need to do 1000 which ends up a HUGE capital investment. I wanted to do that with the design shown in my avatar (that was the first one, I've built 8 now, and there have been another 1/2 dozen or so built by friends). The yellow one in the avatar was 9 lbs with 20 round cells, 1660 squares, and 90 inch span. That origininal is still in existance also. A friend of mine has it.Now we fly them on 10S lipoat roughly the same weight, give or take a few ounces. When the math was done, it would have been a $400 kit which would not have sold in quantities sufficient to justify producing it , and at that number, the margin would have been way to slim also. It could be arf'ed for just a little more if done in volume, but who wants to invest a couple hundred grand in capital with the hopes they're going to sell that many? The price on the accord you mention is not high,..it's VERY INEXPENSIVE for something like that, done in low volume. While designing and producing kits (which I did for about 6 years, just recently stopping), and then being involved in ARF'ing one of my original designs (the E3D, of which we sold over 2000 kits), I've learned just a little about the industry and the consumer base, and I'm amazed anyone makes a living at it. I guess to answer your original question, there aren't many 80"+ electric-specifics because they're not marketable in the volume that would be required to be profitable, so they're not worth the effort.

[feathermerchant]

I'm no expert and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night but it seems the arfers of larger planes are finding the benefits of lighter weights for 3D. One I know used to sell foam/sheeted winged planes with fuselages full of ply. They now seem to be built up balsa, and much lighter. So I think the trend is toward lighter anyway. Not crazy light like I or Gary builds but lighter.

[Greg_Granville]

So, is the LN models Accord 2200 in a class by itself, or are there other options? The Accord is definitely not as attractive and the scale aerobats - but everything else seems to have almost 2x the wingloading.

A plane like this with a Chinese ARF price would be cool :D

[mexico]

There are a few hybrids out there. Made to run both e powered and wet - like Extreme Flight Yak - 88", and Fliton is doing a larger Inspire I believe.

[Greg_Granville]

Inspire 90 seems like an oddball size. It appears to be a pure pattern ship, so why didn't they make it 2m ?
I really like my Inspire 60, but the 90 looks a lot less 3D'ish.

Anyone heard anything good/bad about the Accord 2200? Quality? Usable hardware, etc ???

[mexico]

I really like my Inspire 60, but the 90 looks a lot less 3D'ish.



Very true. And I think purposely done. I believe they are also doing a 90 size Extra 260. Should be more of an aerobat.
The EF Yak is 3D capable.

[KatManDEW]

There don't seem to be many 'built-for electric power' 3D aerobats in the larger than 80" size range. Sure, lots of folks are converting 27%, 30% or larger gas planes, but they all seem needlessly heavy for electric power.

I think the price of the large power systems may be making manufacturers think twice about large electric-specific models. Not so much just the price of the motor and ESC, but the batteries. Every last person I've talked to in person says it's the price of the batteries that's stopping them from moving to bigger electrics.

[feathermerchant]

Hence the drive for lighter planes. Lighter means smaller batteries and other components, reducing the cost.
How about an 8lb 72" Extra? Flies great on 6S and an AXI 4130.

[GWRIGHT]

Along those lines (low weight, small packs) I flew something really interesting at the phoenix event. Someone had made a very large extra (like 70+ inch span) out of 6mm depron (folded over a spar to make a symmetrical airfoil, with wing tube joiner to fuselage, tail two laminations of 6mm, box fuselage). It was very very light, had one of those cheapy himax,..er,.. horizon power 60's <G>, and a little 6S pack, like two 3S 2200's or such. Ridiculously light and slow, just a real blast to fly, and the packs were cheapie generics,..not expensive.

[KatManDEW]

I think I saw some info about that big foam Extra here on RCgroups. Real cool.

Any semi scale ARF over 80 inches is probably going to be a 7-8S plane, even if designed electric-specific, and many folks choke at the idea of even 6S. I'm sure Gary can comment on the high cost to get a plane ARF'd. Manufacturers probably don't want to go out on a limb for a large electric-specific plane, which requires a relatively expensive power system that many of folks might not be willing to spring for.

OTOH, large electric-specific kits would seem to require less of an outlay from a manufacturer, and thus less of a risk. I would settle for a large, lightweight, electric-specific kit at this point.

Dirt cheap motors and ESC's are available now. But the batteries are still a deal killer for many folks.

Many of you know that I'm not holding back myself :), but the vast majority of the pilots that I come into contact with in person are still wet powered, and I know what what their reservations are.

[mexico]

OTOH, large electric-specific kits would seem to require less of an outlay from a manufacturer, and thus less of a risk. I would settle for a large, lightweight, electric-specific kit at this point.



The risk is in the sales volume. Can you sell enough e specific 80" Yaks/Extras/Edges to make it worth the risk? Probably less likely that gassers would buy one and beef it up to withstand the vibration than e fliers would buy and lighten an overbuilt gas model. Small target customer population.

The servo cost for planes this size is daunting too. For me anyway.

[feathermerchant]

The 72" Extra (OK it's not 80") uses DS821's ~20ea
So does my 75" Edge.
If the plane is light, the servos can be a little smaller.
How many here would be interested in the 72" Extra?
It has a CF wing tube, Al landing gear, OK hardware, 2 elevator servos, and CA hinges.
I have pictures....
AFAIK it is being produced in China but not imported yet.
That could change if there is enough interest.

[Greg_Granville]

Well, I'd like to see pictures. And the weight is 8lbs?

Edit: Umm, I assume that is the plane in your blog - right?
That 85" looks sweet. Where do I get one ? :D

[feathermerchant]

Nope not in my Blog. That is a soon to be 85" Katana from 3DHobbyShop.com
Mine is ~15lb. I need to weigh it in it's final configuration. My main complaint there is it's designed for a 50cc engine so I have to have a large outrunner and 3lbs of batteries for CG. Contact Ben at 3Dhobbyshop about the Katana.

The Extra is a sort of secret project. I have contacted the importer to get pricing and quanitiy info in case anyone is interested.

[mexico]

$20 servos are fine. Every time I look at a 12 lb plane I keep seeing $50+ per servo.
It wouldn't even need to be 8 lbs. A 72" plane that could fly 9s could probably be 10 lbs. Then you could use three 3s packs which are pretty common.

[feathermerchant]

Yup. But several folks here have one 6S pack or 2 3S packs. It flies really well on a good 6S pack. Those servos are not the best but pretty good for 20ea. At 8lb landings are really slow.

[KatManDEW]

I'll bite on the 72 inch Extra. Pictures?

[sun.flyer]

Nope not in my Blog. That is a soon to be 85" Katana from 3DHobbyShop.com
Mine is ~15lb. I need to weigh it in it's final configuration. My main complaint there is it's designed for a 50cc engine so I have to have a large outrunner and 3lbs of batteries for CG. Contact Ben at 3Dhobbyshop about the Katana.

The Extra is a sort of secret project. I have contacted the importer to get pricing and quanitiy info in case anyone is interested.

pm sent Jim.

Tim

[Geoff Dryer]

The Hyperion YAK 54 180e is specifically electric.
85" wingspan, 15 to 16 lbs. http://www.allerc.com

There are a couple of build threads on this plane on this site.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619232&highlight=hyperion+YAK+85+

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=600448&highlight=hyperion+YAK+85+

[feathermerchant]

Working on it Kat.

[Greg_Granville]

The Hyperion YAK 54 180e is specifically electric.
85" wingspan, 15 to 16 lbs. http://www.allerc.com

There are a couple of build threads on this plane on this site.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619232&highlight=hyperion+YAK+85+

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=600448&highlight=hyperion+YAK+85+

UGH - that's no lighter than a 50cc gasser :(

[kmp647]

if it was any lighter you wouldnt want to fly it in much more than a 15mph breeze

[GWRIGHT]

Not really,.. it'd be real nice around 10 to 11 lbs. I love mine on 12S with the A60L, and it's lighter than most any of the DA50 powered planes around,..plus with more power,.. but shave a few lbs and it would be even better. It's actually smaller than my XL's and 50% heavier,.. and I live where we call it a "very calm day" if the winds are only 15 knots <G>.

It's also one of the best ARF's I've ever seen. I'm using every piece of hardware that came with it. Really nicely "equiped" with accessories.

[Greg_Granville]

I was just looking at this Yak on allerc.com and they say this first batch didn't come with any hardware or manuals. But, people in several threads are commenting on how good the included hardware package is. :confused:

Did you guys have to buy a separate hardware package?

[GWRIGHT]

Great hardware in the kit, no manual, but the lack of manual maybe added 5 or 10 minutes to the assembly,..it's really that straight forward.

[feathermerchant]

For those interested in an ~8lb 72" Edge or Extra, I contacted Tom at www.wildharerc.com because I built an example for him some time ago. Details are above. He told me that he has ordered 25 of each to be here early August or so.
They are not on his website.
It is not exactly the same plane but looks the same on the outside and sould weigh 'within ounces'. The one I did has canopy material covering the whole hatch making the hatch pretty heavy. These will have a balsa sheeted hatch and a little more structure in the fuselage. So not exactly the same but are supposed to weigh the same. Est price is under $300. I will try to get a hold of one when they come in. The one I built is a sweet flyer and reasonably cheap.

[mexico]

Quote For those interested in an ~8lb 72" Edge or Extra, I contacted Tom at www.wildharerc.com because I built an example for him some time ago. Details are above. /Quote


Where? I am definitely interested. Going bigger and not having to buy any gear...sounds like my kind of deal.

[P-51C]

Feather,

Any idea about a hatch latch on the Wild Hare? I was looking at the extreme flight 73" Yak which incorporates one, i'm curious about the wildhare.

[sun.flyer]

For those interested in an ~8lb 72" Edge or Extra, I contacted Tom at www.wildharerc.com because I built an example for him some time ago. Details are above. He told me that he has ordered 25 of each to be here early August or so.
They are not on his website.
It is not exactly the same plane but looks the same on the outside and sould weigh 'within ounces'. The one I did has canopy material covering the whole hatch making the hatch pretty heavy. These will have a balsa sheeted hatch and a little more structure in the fuselage. So not exactly the same but are supposed to weigh the same. Est price is under $300. I will try to get a hold of one when they come in. The one I built is a sweet flyer and reasonably cheap.


Sounds great Jim!! Are you able to post any pics. of the one that you have yet? How about any pics. on the covering scheme that will be used on the kits that Tom will be putting together. Thanks I am looking forward to getting more info. on these.

Lenny,

It would be nice to see a larger ARF that comes in this light that you can use equipment on hand or purchase for a much more reasonable cost.

Tim

[feathermerchant]

Mexico - What?

P-51C - Hatch is secured with two 4-40 screws like other large birds. It won't come off
All Wildhare planes use inch hardware.

I'll add pics to my blog tonite if able. Remember that the ones on order won't be exactly the same and I have not seen them yet.

[mexico]

You wrote in the post previous to mine that "details are above". I just wondered where the "above" was that you referred to. Don't bother. I asked Wildhare some questions. He said AUW will be between 8-9 1/2 lbs. I think that will be pushing a 4130 for 3D power. Probably will need 1500-1700 watts depending on weight. At 6s (which I think is the motor's limit) that's 75 amps. I think that is over spec. Still sounds interesting.

This is sub 80" but I have seen it fly glow powered and it looked good. I wonder how light it could be built - and the price is good. But I don't think it comes with a hatch - http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEUP9&P=SM

[feathermerchant]

See Post #13 It came in right at 8lb. The AXI and Phoenix80 were used because they are known items and would provide good performance. First flights (like the one where Tom flew it) were on older batteries just in case. I sought to prove I could build a good flying 72" plane for a reasonable cost. Others could look at the equipment and decide if they wanted more power, better servos, etc. Certainly a Hacker motor of the same weight woulld be more capable but most do not but Hackers. Some feel the Jazz controllers are better.
Anyway consider it a 'low end to mainstream' build. It is a good flying plane. I plan to add pics soon to my bolg.

[feathermerchant]

Pics and some description are up on my blog

[blucor basher]

Feather traded the 72" Extra to me, I've been flying it, took it to SEFF and flew it there. He let me fly it at the Comfort, Texas Big Bird and I fell in love with it. Very, very stable 3d platform with mild coupling. The 4130 was working hard with me flying, and I think we may have hurt it running it on my 6S TPX pack.

So, I installed a 4025 Hyperion motor and have it propped for about 1500W. It didn't gain any weight and I like it better now. I'm glad to hear the production versions will have some more beef in the fuse, b/c this one is not quite strong enough. For sure, Feather did a heck of a job assembling it as light as possible. It's weird, but this plane is so easy, I fly it out of our tiny parking lot at the arehouse without any stress at all.

[mexico]

That sounds very intriguing. Thanks for the info guys.

[feathermerchant]

The Hyperions are great motors and the 4025 weighs 13oz like the 4130 but it can handle more amps.

And I'm trying to figure out how to get it back from Ben.
My blog.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=19395

Ben Are you planning to do something along these lines?
Do you have a timetable?

[blucor basher]

Nope, we're working on things with round cowls and some other things without cowls at all.

[feathermerchant]

No cowls???

[blucor basher]

So, Feather, what have you got to trade?

[BoneDoc]

Now you guys are piquing my interest :D.

[StrangeGager]

Have you guys forgotten about the Ultra RC Giles and Katana? No, they're not 80", but close. I'm putting together the Katana right now. Thought about electrocuting it, but like someone mentioned previously, the battery cost was a deterrant. Anyway, with a Brison 2.4, the projected weight is about 10.75lbs dry.

http://www.ultra-rc.com/products/katanax/index.html
http://www.ultra-rc.com/products/giles/index.htm

[feathermerchant]

Great point Strange - That Katana looks really nice.

Well Blucor, it sounds like you need some cowls.

[GWRIGHT]

It seems that we sometimes forget, there are battery technologies out there other than lipo. When we built the 2 meter Funtana's to demo at the last TOC with the first of the Hacker C50's, we were using 30 roundcells. They flew great, plenty of power and 5 to 7 minute flights. When the Lipo revolution started, we went to 8000mah packs (to handle the current in those days) and basically stayed the same weight, same performance, maybe a touch more , but over doubled the flight time. Now I've seen things make a rather noticable change in the last couple years. As Lipo's have evolved to handle more and more current, it seems that everyone is setting them up for 20/30/50 "C" peak current, but using throttle some,..and we're back to 5 to 7 minute flights, but with lighter models. It seems that we've forgotten 100 to 150 watts per pound for 5 to 7 minutes is perfectly acceptable,.. and we really don't have to have 250 watts per pound <G>. Yes, I'm just as guilty as anyone else,.. as evidenced by my YAK at 16 lbs and 4200+ watts,.. and no,.. I don't plan on going back to roundcells. However,..for the real budget-concious, there really are viable options.
Have you guys forgotten about the Ultra RC Giles and Katana? No, they're not 80", but close. I'm putting together the Katana right now. Thought about electrocuting it, but like someone mentioned previously, the battery cost was a deterrant. Anyway, with a Brison 2.4, the projected weight is about 10.75lbs dry.

http://www.ultra-rc.com/products/katanax/index.html
http://www.ultra-rc.com/products/giles/index.htm

[BoneDoc]

Round cells... you mean the lithium ion cells like A123 or emolis? :D :D :D

[GWRIGHT]

The example I was talking about was using the "new" at that time 2600mah nimh sub-c's from Sanyo. That was like 2002 if I remember correctly. Lipo's weren't around for another year, and A123 and Emoli's weren't heard of for several years

[feathermerchant]

How soon we forget. I'm with you Gary 150W/lb should be enough with a properly setup airplane.

[callen]

The example I was talking about was using the "new" at that time 2600mah nimh sub-c's from Sanyo. That was like 2002 if I remember correctly. Lipo's weren't around for another year, and A123 and Emoli's weren't heard of for several years

Now that your not doing kits anymore, you should consider a new project. Their is really a void in the electric world on a short book that puts everything in layman's terms. All components in one book. With all your experience, background, and energy, you are the perfect person to undertake this task. Explaining all type of setups, ubec's, regulators, esc's, motors etc., all the way to a large electric set up. Like one chapter just on motors. Kv's, some basic on how they work, props etc. I bet if you really thought this out you could do really well on a project like this. I would like the first copy. Paying customer of course.

[feathermerchant]

Look at the first 3 stickys at the top of this forum:
http://www.rcgroups.com/power-systems-13/
There is a host of experience here. And it's free.

There are 8 stickys here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/batteries-and-chargers-129/
Amazing amounts of specific information on batteries and chargers and power supplies.

[callen]

Look at the first 3 stickys at the top of this forum:
http://www.rcgroups.com/power-systems-13/
There is a host of experience here. And it's free.

There are 8 stickys here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/batteries-and-chargers-129/
Amazing amounts of specific information on batteries and chargers and power supplies.

True, but wouldn't it be nice to have a whole lot of info in one reference written by someone other than an engineer or marketing person. There is a wealth of info on the web about aerobatics but Scott Stoops made it simple for the beginner to the advanced. I love his book and refer back to it often.
http://www.rcpilotguide.com/
Go to the AMA site and read about aerobatics. Whew!!!!!

[KatManDEW]

As I sit here with a Hacker A60 looking for a home, I'm actually thinking "Where are all the 60" 3D electrics"? Not really much out there that I can think of except conversioins.

I have a 63" E3D kit, but I'm not up to building a kit during flying season.

[Greg_Granville]

As I sit here with a Hacker A60 looking for a home, I'm actually thinking "Where are all the 60" 3D electrics"? Not really much out there that I can think of except conversioins.

I have a 63" E3D kit, but I'm not up to building a kit during flying season.

Aren't A60's intended for 1.20 size and up? I would think an A50 would be a better match for a 60" 3D plane. Maybe Feather's 8 lb Extra is the plane for your A60 ?

[GWRIGHT]

I'm using an A50 in the 63",.. and only at about half it's true capabilities. A60's are for much larger stuff,.. in the 10 to 20 lb range (depending on which A60)

[KatManDEW]

Dog gone I did it again. It's an A50 I have sitting here looking for a home.

Any more word on your plane feather?

[BoneDoc]

Talked to Ben from 3DH tonight. His 85" SHP should be a real killer!

[KatManDEW]

What's a SHP?

[BoneDoc]

3D Hobbyshop Extra 300 SHP. It's codesigned with Scott Stoops. They started out with a 47", then scaled it up to a 55". The 85" is almost finalized as we speak.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=646632

[Tipover]

Any idea how many square inches of wing on the 85"?

Kevin

[feathermerchant]

I think it's close tp 1000

[Tipover]

I think it's close tp 1000

Closer to 1,300 I hope :confused:

My Funtana 90 manual says it has 1108 sq inches(can that be right?) and those can fly at 8-9 lbs with lite equipment choices.

Kevin

[BoneDoc]

According to Ben, it's somewhere between 1400-1500 squares at 15 lbs AUW.

[Tipover]

That would be much better. Looking forward to seeing how this goes.

Kevin

[GWRIGHT]

Try 1660 at 9 lbs (in my avatar <G>)

Closer to 1,300 I hope :confused:

My Funtana 90 manual says it has 1108 sq inches(can that be right?) and those can fly at 8-9 lbs with lite equipment choices.

Kevin

[BoneDoc]

Yeah, but this one is an ARF and it looks scale :D :D :D.

Yours must be a floater though.

[Tipover]

Try 1660 at 9 lbs (in my avatar <G>)

Thats impressive. Seen you fly it in the 2003 Neat Fair video. Would have loved to see it fly in person but I can never get far enough south at the right time of year :D

I've always dreamed of a big Balsa Nova at about that size and weight. Something with just a bit of wing tapper and somewhat of a semi scale-ish outline. Did you ever do short kits of your big one? I built one of your first E3ds way back when we still used 10 nicads in them.

Kevin

[MadDuc]

Have a look at this build thread, currently a 52" but he is planning on building a 80-100" version.. : http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=702736