Tape hinges on composite planes?

[target]

Hi-

I have an Aris F3F plane, and I have had a few problems with the tape hinges system on the wing. If you are not famailiar with the plane, the wing itself, and the ailerons and flaps are molded seperately, I believe, because the moving surfaces have the "waveform technology" with webs that connect the top and bottom skins weaving through the hollow portion.
Therefore the hinges are not the traditional "live hinges" that most molded planes come with. Instead, the surfaces are taped on, and there is even a molded in step, so that the surface of the tape does NOT protrude above the wing skin...
I have had the wipers push up above the top wing skin with full flaps on a couple times now. Once dirt of any kind gets onto the exposed tape of the hinge line, the tape inevitable starts to debond slightly, resulting in slight misalignment...


My question is:

What mods have people made to make this hinge more secure?

Thanks,
Target

[jojoen]

Are you using the original tape?

[cody303]

What I have done is take some tape and put it on the other side of the hinge (the inside of the wing). I have only needed to do around 12 inches of tape centered on the control horn. It is a pain to do but it will fix the problem.

Little Cody

[target]

Are you using the original tape?


I was, but now have some waiting at home from an aftermarket source.

Target

[target]

What I have done is take some tape and put it on the other side of the hinge (the inside of the wing). I have only needed to do around 12 inches of tape centered on the control horn. It is a pain to do but it will fix the problem.

Little Cody


I have heard of doing this, and in fact, the v-tails are done with a very small piece about 1/2" wide on the inside this way...

I have also heard of doing a small smear of silicone on the inside as well.

I'll probably re-tape with the new tape, and try adding the silicone for a few inches at each end, and in line with the control horn.

If that doesn't hold up, I DO have a hair-brained scheme, that all of you will find very interesting, I'm certain. But I need to do a bit more research before even posting it. It's clever, though.

T

[Terminator]

5200
slow cure
that check your servo arm geometery

[target]

5200
slow cure
that check your servo arm geometery

That's not it; the wiper was physically getting on top of the wing's top skin, because the hinge tape was loose enough (just a little!) to let the flap get pushed up a bit...
You'll see on yours.
5200 might be OK; but silicone will do that same thing, and I won't have to worry about the hinge being too stiff.

T

[Doubletap]

Major PITA. My 2.5M Albatross has tape hinges so I know exactly what you're talking about. There's always going to be a bit of slop associated with the nature of the tape hinges. Not only that, but because there's a bit of "shifting" involved with the control surface, I find myself re-adjusting my trim constantly. Tape hinges IMO are great for certain kinds of planes such as slopers, foamies, etc. but it's a less than optimum device on larger ships requiring a certain degree of precision. I also get some flutter at higher speeds.

I'd be very interested to see if someone can come up with a solution for this issue.

Doubletap

[target]

Don't get me wrong, DT. This plane is way up there on the evolutionary scale; it's just that there was no way for them to accomplish one thing (easily at least) without giving up another...The tape hinges work good when they are stuck on there good.
You know that our CA landing zones this year are extra dry, and dust inevitably finds it's way in there...

T

[Terminator]

5200....kinda fixes the top soil stuck in there doesn't it....try backing off your throws from 90 and see if the flaps still lock out...seems like the pushing being done is unhinging the tape...kinda taking it past the limits........5200 will stop that the battery will have to suck up the difference...My last Aris was no problem with the tape alas I did not have 90 degree flaps...the servo geometry was not pointed aft torwards the control horns aka ds style for flap flutter resistance...just a guess...does not bode well in a taped f3f flap....justa hunch...

Alan

[Dbox]

I was taking apart damaged Elita for repair on both wings and find that an originall
hinge tape was under another 3/three/ tapes.I am thinking it could be done to eleminate "shifting" on flaps /aelereons.Make sence ,as that little gap between moving surfaces gets much thicker.Did not finished wings yet to find out for sure.

Yuri.

[Wing-span]

I'm using tape and silicone on the V-tail of my Xpro. Seems OK so far.

[target]

That is the direction that I'm headed right now, Wing-span.

T

[F3X]

1. Remove the old tape and dust.
2. Clean the surfaces.
3. Re tape with new stock tape (I have it).
4. Bend the flap down and install 3 strips of 1/4 servo cover tape. (I have it also) one at each end of the flap and one under the control horn.
5. This will fix everything. A tape to tape bond will keep the flap from peeling the hinge when the surfaces are deflected to far...well to a point. :rolleyes:
6. Set your max flap travel around 80 deg.
7. Fly fast and turn hard :D

[Terminator]

Tom:
what is the down side of backing with 5200 slow cure?
Besides the factist is difficult to remove in case of repairs...


Alan

[glderguy]

I dont know anything about Aris but know that, like mentioned earlier, incorrect horn/PR geometry can stretch the hinges causing slop. Ive seen bad geometry on several moldies Ive owned.
Walter

[F3X]

Tom:
what is the down side of backing with 5200 slow cure?
Besides the fact its is difficult to remove in case of repairs...
Alan

5200: It can be done, on my ARIS the flap tape is original and has been solid going on 4 years.

5200: Be VERY careful its so easy to get too much on the hinge and then you really have problems. I would rather see a dot of 5200 on the same 3 back tape points I mentioned than a complete hinge line.

[target]

I'm kind of leaning towards new tape full length, and then a super light smear of silicone, more to keep the dust off the sticky part of the tape inside the bottom wing skin seperation. It will be used more just to seal out the dirt, than to hinge.

I think that if I can keep the dirt off of the tape, it will likely almost never start to lift anywhere.

Of course, I can, and likely will, try the three tape strips on the inside FIRST, because it is much easier, and less likely to cause any permanent problems.

Thanks for the input, All.

Target

[jojoen]

Listen to Cody and Tom. Get the original tape (from the Aris guys, Tom or even Jaro Muller that also uses this tape). This is an awsome tape! Put new tape on with as small gap as possible and put some on the inside. You will not have a problem. You might also sand the wiper slightly to make a round edge on the end of the wiper but should not be needed.

[target]

I have some high-quality 3M tape that I want to try first, but if it doen't work, I'll bug Tom for some.

Thanks.

I do have a questions, though.
The tape is a certain width, as is the recess on the wing skin and flap/aileron. Wouldn't this decide the gap width between the two pieces?

Also, Tom mentions that the inner tape touches the the outer hinge tape, sticky to sticky...
I would have to assume that there will need to be a little space for that to happen, at least a bit more that two thicknesses of the tape itself.

OR, does the inner tape NOT touch the hinge tape at all, but just serve as a stiffener to keep the hinge in alignment?

Thanks,
Target

[F3X]

There will be some sticky exposed from the hinge tape and this is where the tape to tape bond comes from.

[target]

Roger that, got it.

I'll make the tape to tape bond with the flap down 80*, and press it to the inner wing/flap surfaces out to the edges.

Thanks,
Target

[target]

I'm all taped up.

I used 3M 8902 tape for the hinge, as recommended by world record DS'er, Joe Manor.
It's the right width (3/4"), and even blue, so it matches my plane! It's @ 0034" thick, where as the stock tape is a bit thicker at about .005"

I used 3M Scotch 56 tape in 5/8" width on the inside in 3 places as suggested. This width matches the tape for the v-tail, and seems VERY sticky!

Time for some real-world testing!

Target

[target]

Spent some quality time with the Aris today in some light lift at my home slope...
Flaps worked flawlessly, and I was able to make a few minor adjustments that appeared to favor faster flying.

I am looking forward to flying it the full race this coming Saturday, I hope.

Thanks for all the advice.

Target

[target]

I'm all taped up.

I used 3M 8902 tape for the hinge, as recommended by world record DS'er, Joe Manor.
It's the right width (3/4"), and even blue, so it matches my plane! It's @ 0034" thick, where as the stock tape is a bit thicker at about .005"

I used 3M Scotch 56 tape in 5/8" width on the inside in 3 places as suggested. This width matches the tape for the v-tail, and seems VERY sticky!

Time for some real-world testing!

Target

Tom-
These are the tape #'s that I'm using, and they seem to be working well so far...
I'll email you the name of the distributor when I get home to check the receipt.

T

[F3X]

Thank T,
I am doing a small test, I have 4 new hinge tapes on a clean v tail out in the sun, I will see how they hold up after afew days and see how they peel off.

[target]

That 8902 is for powder coating masking, so it should be very good. It's working well so far for me.

T