Phoenix or Reflex XTR

[mdavenport]

I have read lots on different flight sims and currently have AFPD but am looking at changing it but not sure which to go for, either Phoenix or XTR.

I mainly want this for heli's. I have a HBFP so use a e-sky tx. Are both of these compatbile?

Which one do you guys recommend?


Thanks

[Pinecone]

Phoenix

I have seen people buy Phoenix and sell XTR. I haven't seen it happen the other way around.

[Lonemountain]

I am only two weeks into the Phoenix sim and like it very much. The fixed wing aircraft fly very well, and the graphics are the best I've seen. I've been flying RC for 41 years, but I am relatively new to helis, so can't speak authoritatively on the accuracy of the heli flight physics. I do know that the electric "training" helis pretty accurately represent the difficulty and feel in flying my E-flite Blade and my HB CP2. Phoenix will work with your Esky transmitter, as it has an "unmixing" feature that decodes the pre-programmed mixes. You would also be able to fly all the fixed wing Phoenix AC with your Esky transmitter. Their download manager is unbelievably easy to use. I think Phoenix is a helluva deal for the money. I ordered mine directly from the UK and had it in 2-1/2 days with a very reasonable $9 FedEx delivery charge. Give Phoenix a serious look.

[bilboa]

Phoenix will work with your Esky transmitter, as it has an "unmixing" feature that decodes the pre-programmed mixes.
Actually I don't think the HBFP transmitter does any mixing, so you shouldn't even need to use the de-mixing feature.

[mdavenport]

Ok, so I wansn't really expecting Pheonix to be leaps and bounds above XTR, will give it a serious look.

All other reviews have rated XTR over most other sims.

If anyone else has any comments then please let us know.

[Pinecone]

I haven't flown XTR, but when Phoenix came out a bunch of people tried it, and sold their copies of XTR. You could have picked up XTR for about $100 then. :)

But that tells me a LOT.

[Grale]

Yes, i was one of those guys who sold XTR and bought Phoenix!

I even made a few £ :¬)

i would choose Phoenix over XTR everytime...

[mdavenport]

Any other ex XTR sim owners who replaced it with Phoenix wishing to share their experiences?

Looking good for Phoenix tho at the moment..

[Grale]

Sorry, i could have given some reasons why i prefer Phoenix.

So quickly, and this was a major gripe with xtr, THE DAMN RED BARRIERS, basicaly there is an out of bounds area which runs the full length of the flying field where you cannot pass, usually 10 feet directly behind the camera position which fade in red as you near it and then reset your aircraft, this means you are limited to where you can fly on the field! very very annoying, this was reason enough to leave xtr.

Customer support is excellent, they are actively working on updates (xtr stagnent for too long!), and listen to customer feedback.
Even though Phoenix is in it's early days, i beleive it will go on to be one of the best sims available, i'm looking forward to the model importer so i can get my models flying :¬), i beleive this will bring a big step forward for Phoenix, allowing users to import there own models into the sim is an important feature, which will see the sim grow immensely..

[mdavenport]

Do you get free updates with Phoenix?

Also, do they have a Honey Bee FP equivilent model?

Where is the best place to get this from in the UK?

Sorry for all the questions..

[Lonemountain]

All Phoenix updates and new planes/scenery are free. Just download 'em. You can see all the aircraft on their website: http://www.phoenix-sim.com/pages/news.htm. Their Spark Trainer electric would come the closest to your Honey Bee. You can tune the parameters to more closely approximate the feel that you are looking for. Don't know if you could completely convert it to fixed pitch or not. Be sure you download and watch their two demos -- one fixed wing with a Pitts Special and one heli. I bought mine directly from the manufacturer on this website. As I said before, 2-1/2 days to my door. In addition to the standard interface that comes with the sim, I also bought the Hitec DIN cable and a Multiplex cable (for my Royal Evo 9) at the same time. I was flying the Easy Fly 50 just this morning, and it was great. There is a good review of the sim from a heli perspective here: http://www.trextuning.com/phoenix.php. Give it a good look and factor in the other opinions, both good and bad, that you will get. Phoenix supposedly has the best flight physics of any of the sims presently available.

[Towser]

I mainly want this for heli's. I have a HBFP so use a e-sky tx. Are both of these compatbile?

Thanks


Phoenix is the best in my opinion, and yes, your HBFP transmitter will work just fine, although you'll have to map throttle hold to a keyboard key and you'll have to set governor (you'll have no idle up on that tx) and pitch curves, expo etc through the sim. it's very easy to set up though.

You'll be able to set up the spark heli to resemble your FP, even down to the tail rotating ablout 90 degrees when you go full collective! Altering the parameters of the helis is again very easy and 90% of the settings are self explanitory.

Dont forget to order the ESKY-dongle-transmitter lead thingy so it'll plug into the back of your tx.

Where's Ade in this topic? :p

All the best

[CA'ed fingers]

Lonemountain,

Have you used Phoenix with your royal evo 9? WHere did you get the cable from? Any issues? This is exactly what I would like to do...

thx,
eric

[Lonemountain]

Eric, I got my MPX cable from Phoenix directly in the UK when I bought the sim -- included it in my order. I haven't used the Royal Evo (yet), as I've been playing with a spare Hitec transmitter I had laying around. I would be amazed if there were any problems using Phoenix with MPX, as the sim developers are in the UK and MPX is huge in Europe. I doubt they'd mess up a major part of their market. You could always email Phoenix to see if they have had any problems reported when interfacing with MPX.

[brodjack]

Any other ex XTR sim owners who replaced it with Phoenix wishing to share their experiences?

Looking good for Phoenix tho at the moment..

i used Reflex for a number of years and to be fair it helped enormously with my flying,helis, and planes for my young son.It basically taught us newbies then!
I sold it to buy Phoenix earlier this year 'cause i just got used to it and wanted to try another.
The main fault i found with Reflex was the helis were far too twitchy and unrealistic,nothing like the real thing.reflex was also a little unstable on my new computer,occasionaly freezing the whole thing.
Phoenix on the other hand runs smoother,needs less processer power etc.
The helis are far more like our real ones as in more stable and similar doing loops and flips etc.
The 450 Trex is very good,very lifelike and responds nicely.
My son also has a great time on the multiplayer,putting more stick time in,than he would just flying on his own,he gets bored easy!!
I would pick Phoenix over Reflex if i had to choose.

[CHCHGSR]

Phoenix any day.

[PeterMaag]

Lonemountain,

Have you used Phoenix with your royal evo 9? WHere did you get the cable from? Any issues? This is exactly what I would like to do...

thx,
eric
I used the Evo 9 with the adapter provided by Phoenix. No issues.

Although I heard some rumors that you should not use the EVO with HF Module installed for a sim. Not sure why and whether that's true. So far, no problems occured.

[bluesky123]

I have just bought Phoenix from Tower Hobby and I am quite a bit disappointed. Phoenix is certainly a far cry from G3.5 or AFPD or FS One!

IMO, the only advantage Phoenix holds over G3.5 is somewhat lower video card requirements, nothing else. But this is only because Phoenix doesn't offer true 3D flying fields (as far as I know, I may be wrong), only photofields. Try switching RF or AFPD to a photo field, and the video card requirements will be equally low.

Who said that fixed wing planes are good in Phoenix??? The flight model of fixed wing planes is at the level of freeware FMS, i.e. it's crap! Reflex fixed wing modeling is way better, so are the flight models of RF G3.5, AFPD or any other commercial sim.

How about the primitive menus? Try opening any Phoenix menu on a system with large system font! Better yet, try switching to hower training when you have a fixed wing craft selected--not only Phoenix crashes, but it brings down the whole Windows!

Phoenix software looks like a very early and buggy beta (not that Microsoft or KnifeEdge products are better in this respect--let's call it "an industry standard quality"). Phoenix hardware is equally pathetic...

Really disappointing...

Boris

[CA'ed fingers]

Lonemountain and Petermaag,

Thank you for the info, I will look into Phoenix some more...

eric

[bilboa]

Who said that fixed wing planes are good in Phoenix??? The flight model of fixed wing planes is at the level of freeware FMS, i.e. it's crap! Reflex fixed wing modeling is way better, so are the flight models of RF G3.5, AFPD or any other commercial sim.


I'd have completely disagree here. I haven't tried AFPD or Reflex, but Phoenix's fixed wing simulation is at least as good as G3.5, and MUCH better than FMS. There are a couple of fixed wing models in Phoenix that seem to be setup unrealistically, like the Yak foamie, but for the most part the airplanes are very good.


How about the primitive menus? Try opening any Phoenix menu on a system with large system font! Better yet, try switching to hower training when you have a fixed wing craft selected--not only Phoenix crashes, but it brings down the whole Windows!

Phoenix software looks like a very early and buggy beta (not that Microsoft or KnifeEdge products are better in this respect--let's call it "an industry standard quality"). Phoenix hardware is equally pathetic...


I don't find the menus bothersome or primitive, but I agree it's a little annoying that they chose to implement their own non-standard menu and dialog widgets rather than using standard windows UI components, since normal keyboard navigation through the UI doesn't work as expected. However a lot of computer games also seem to take that approach, so I guess they figure it's part of creating their own seamless environment when you're using the program.

As far as stability, I've seen an occasional crash, though nothing that's ever locked up Windows, just Phoenix exiting with a crash message. Almost all large apps I've used crash occasionally, including Photoshop, most web browsers, etc. This is especially true for graphics intensive programs, since they're quite dependent on what hardware they're running on. So to me it doesn't seem beta quality at all, though it is probably less mature than programs that have been around a long time like G3.5.

[LouieB]

I don't find the menus bothersome or primitive, but I agree it's a little annoying that they chose to implement their own non-standard menu and dialog widgets rather than using standard windows UI components, since normal keyboard navigation through the UI doesn't work as expected. However a lot of computer games also seem to take that approach, so I guess they figure it's part of creating their own seamless environment when you're using the program.



Have to agree with Boris .. The Windows 3.11 GUI is a poor choice for Phoenix to have adopted. Supposedly they are working on the GUI and a better GUI is in the works. The font issue is pathetic, create 4 or 5 custom radio settings and they scroll off the dialog box and you can't get to the action buttons to delete a radio setting. That occurs on 3 different computers of mine. Still a sound quality issue on my HP with Phoenix. No sound issues with RealFlight or Reflex.

I too consider Phoenix to be betaware, not ready for prime time but, Phoenix has a great potential and will be an excellent sim a year or so down the road. For the total sim experience get RealFlight, Reflex ( which I no longer use ) or AFPD.

For the record I am not a FANBOY of anybodys sim, I just call it the way it appears. I still have Phoenix on my PC but I use RealFlight %99 of the time. Phoenix is good shareware/betaware and has a way to goes to be top notch but it will eventually get there. New users are better off to get RealFlight or AFPD.

[Pinecone]

Did you upgrade Phoenix to the latest version?

1.03c is the latest physics and scenery model. The later ones, up to 1.03j are multiplayer betas.

[LouieB]

Yes, I have updated to the 1.03j version, reinstalled drivers and the usual house cleaning on my PC's. Still have sound issue with Phoenix but not with RF or XTR. Still no luck with the sound issues, Phoenix is aware of this problem as others have the same experience as I have had with sound. These are the type of issues that they should be fixing instead of writing code for multi-player support.

[CHCHGSR]

Yes, I have updated to the 1.03j version, reinstalled drivers and the usual house cleaning on my PC's. Still have sound issue with Phoenix but not with RF or XTR. Still no luck with the sound issues, Phoenix is aware of this problem as others have the same experience as I have had with sound. These are the type of issues that they should be fixing instead of writing code for multi-player support.

Send your PC details to support - perhaps there might be a small issue with different hardware.

[burnside]

cant see the point in bashing a sim because of issues with the menu and sound probs on one of your pcs? - at least you can use the menu in full screen!

i judge on realism and phoenix is very good, and although phoenix runs flawlesly on my pc its still not perfect - i so want the adk!

[LouieB]

I would not consider it bashing, just stating the obvious. The sound problem is on 3 different PCs and I am not the only one with this issue. Menu issues are serious as one can not do something if the action buttons are not accessible, once again this is not an issue with RF or XTR on any of my PCs.

After installation you will have two subdirectorys left over, 1 for Adobe and 1 for DirectX. They consume about 71 meg of space. Why are they left there? Especially as virtually every PC will already have Acrobat and DirectX loaded. Delete these to make space on your drive and you are FORCED to completely reinstall Phoenix. Instead of making a call to an already installed Acrobat, Phoenix forces another install of its copy. This is not standard practice in the industry, what if every vender did this, how much disk space would you lose if you had 30 or 40 programs loaded that all made calls to DirectX and Acrobat? How much disk space would you lose?

I made my feelings about this and some other items known to a 'rep' of Phoenix that is on this forum sometimes, I was told that Phoenix was just 'protecting their software'. I considered that to be a Baloney Sandwich statement.

Never the less, Phoenix is trying and trying hard to get it right, they just need to rethink some of what they are doing and take their time in getting this software right. I have high hopes for Phoenix and believe it has the chance to be a really great SIM and because of that I will stay on their hind quarters and will tell prospective customers what to expect from this software. Fanboys, because of their hype will lead a software company right down the drain; expectant and demanding users that are vocal and truthful will push a company to greater success.

If not for the overhype from the fanboys I probably would not make much mention of some of these issues; however, folks come here looking for advice and if all they hear is the good from the fanboys then the customer has been mislead, though not intentionally.

Because I believe that Phoenix has a chance at real greatness and because they seem to want to make this SIM a great SIM I have left Phoenix on my PC. I unloaded my Reflex XTR and it sits in a box, their fanboys and corporate stance and arrogance was enough for me to not want to use the program. If someone needs a licensed copy of XTR, mine is for sale. Until Phoenix makes improvements I will continue to use RealFlight as it is clearly a far superior alternative at the moment.

[bilboa]

If not for the overhype from the fanboys I probably would not make much mention of some of these issues; however, folks come here looking for advice and if all they hear is the good from the fanboys then the customer has been mislead, though not intentionally.

Because I believe that Phoenix has a chance at real greatness and because they seem to want to make this SIM a great SIM I have left Phoenix on my PC. I unloaded my Reflex XTR and it sits in a box, their fanboys and corporate stance and arrogance was enough for me to not want to use the program. If someone needs a licensed copy of XTR, mine is for sale. Until Phoenix makes improvements I will continue to use RealFlight as it is clearly a far superior alternative at the moment.

Nice. Everyone who feels differently from you is a "fanboy", but your feeling that "RealFlight is clearly far superior" is just the facts. I think Phoenix has won a lot of people over simply because a lot of people feel it works better, at least in certain ways that they care about. I can understand that if it doesn't work correctly on your PC you may feel differently, or maybe it still doesn't have some features that you consider important. But I don't see how people who have found they like Phoenix more than other sims are any more "Phoenix fanboys" than you are a "RealFlight fanboy" because you like RealFlight better.

[CHCHGSR]

But I don't see how people who have found they like Phoenix more than other sims are any more "Phoenix fanboys" than you are a "RealFlight fanboy" because you like RealFlight better.

well said there chap.
I have both G3.5 and Phoenix - Both work 100% on my PC - but I do like phoenix better.

[LouieB]

Nice. Everyone who feels differently from you is a "fanboy", but your feeling that "RealFlight is clearly far superior" is just the facts. I think Phoenix has won a lot of people over simply because a lot of people feel it works better, at least in certain ways that they care about. I can understand that if it doesn't work correctly on your PC you may feel differently, or maybe it still doesn't have some features that you consider important. But I don't see how people who have found they like Phoenix more than other sims are any more "Phoenix fanboys" than you are a "RealFlight fanboy" because you like RealFlight better.


Wrong ... a Fanboy is anyone who hops on the bandwagon about something and touts that something as being the greatest that there is. A fanboy is in essence the banner bearer or flag waver of something. Regardless of what the truth may be or may not be, they will support what it is that they believe in, often ignoring the shortcomings of the beloved software, political party or whatever.

Phoenix has its share of fanboys and banner bearers. For some, Phoenix is their first experience with a SIM but, they speak about Phoenix as if it is the best SIM out there.

I own 3 different SIMs, Phoenix is not the best SIM out there, it is good, but not the best. I am merely stating my experience with Phoenix. Part of that experience are the flag wavers. Reread what I have written before, I hope the best for Phoenix, I anticipate the best for Phoenix and until then, until Phoenix offers the features and capabilites of XTR, RealFlight and AFPD I will consider it be second best.

I have no love or devotion to any SIM or model or radio or servo. I have simply stated my experience concerning Phoenix and its lack of features.

[ChrisE]

I don't know if you can begin to imagine how confusing this is for a new buyer who has not had the opportunity to try the different simulators himself. Generally in modelling most people are friendly reasonable & balanced but simulators seem to be very divisive.

I agree that there do seem to be Phoenix "fan boys" out there but I could say exactly the same for the other sims. Magazine tests - like Backyard Flier" - are, in my opinion, absolutely no help whatsoever. In fact I would not call them a test at all but rather an opportunity to publish manufacturers slightly modified advertising.

Chris

[Pinecone]

Interesting, espcially considering the number of people who have sold other sims after getting Phoenix. Of the current sims, I have flown FSOne and RF G3.5 and like Phoneix better.

The Brits and computer software. At times I think they are living in the 80s. :) Things like leaving the Acrobat and DirectX install folders.

I have some software for my race car data logger that when you update, you first have to uninstall the previous version. Another Brit software. And when you set up a lap file for timing, you set track markers for timing points, but you have to go into another section and turn the pieces of track in between the markers into segments you you don't get lap times displayed in car. Their hardware is usperb, but software is a bit dicey. :)

[bilboa]

LouieB, most of your criticisms of Phoenix make sense to me. I would be annoyed if Phoenix didn't work correctly on my hardware, and some of the things that you've said bother you about Phoenix seem like trivial flaws to me, but I do see them, so I can accept that they bother you more. I wouldn't even have jumped in except that your labeling of those who disagree with you as "fanboys" just irked me.

I do know what you mean by "fanboys", people who seem to develop a loyalty to a product or brand independent of any practical advantages it gives them over similar products. I see this phenomenon in every hobby for all sorts of things.

However there's also another common behavior I see, I don't have a name for it, where some people can't seem to tolerate the fact that other people can see the same thing as them and yet come to a different conclusion than them. So they need to dismiss those other people's opinions as being fundamentally flawed and illogical, even when it could just be because different people have different priorities. ;)

[LouieB]

ajenkins, lets let there be no hard feelings, I understand what you are saying. It is not that others disagree with me, especially as one of the most important things that I have learned in life is that 'it is not always important to be right'; but it is that often the full story is not given concerning a product.

We often see a response that goes something like this , "XYZ is great, buy it, you will love it". The problem with this kind of statement is that the inquirer is not told why XYZ is so great and he is not always told about the problems or shortcomings of XYZ. People that come to these forums are somewhat trusting and sometimes inexperienced in the hobby, they go out and buy XYZ and find out that it is not as great of a product as declared or perhaps is missing a feature that the he assumed was there.

I do not mind such statements being made but, what I do is try to point out to someone that there is more to the story. Perhaps there are some issues with XYZ, perhaps it does not do all that product ABC will do. So really it is not that I disagree with what someone has to say it is that I want the inquirer to have more of a broad picture of the product that they are considering buying. Not all motors generate the same power, even though they may have the same number of windings, I want to give the inquirer a chance to understand that. We could take 3 sims and compare them side by side, looking at all the features and pros and cons and we would find that there are a great many difference between some of these sims. I would like nothing better than to see a sticky at the top of this forum that laid out all the features of the available sims. Perhaps making fields is important to someone, if it is, then they would need to consider a sim that permits such a thing to be done.

ChrisE hit it right on the nose about how poor the reviews are when it comes to simulators. Everytime one sees a review of a sim, you will see a full page add that is placed before or after the review. Most reviews seem to be very shallow and advertiser driven. It is an unfortunate truth that the only way to make a really fact based choice or decision about a sim is to own at least 3 sims.

So please understand that it is not that I disagree with you or your opinion, it is that I try to give the inquirer more information. Perhaps I could do a better job a putting those words to paper and I will try to do that in the future. But rest assured, I am very hopeful about Phoenix and I really believe that it will one day, very soon, be a top notch sim.

..

[JookSing]

Hi all,

Anyone using a Spektrum DX6 with the Pheonix? I read from thier website that it supports the DX6/DX7 without addiional hardware (adpator). If so how hard is it to setup?

Read in another thread that it's a b*tch with FS ONE, plus you'd need to buy the wireless adaptor to use the DX6...an addtional $50.00 or so on Ebay.

I'm basically looking for a sim that I can use with the DX6...with the least amount of hassle.

[CHCHGSR]

yea im using the DX6 - the plug you get with Phoenix works 100%, plugs directly into the trainer port - Setup a different model if you normally fly with CCPM & you are flying easy as 1 2 3
any questions just ask or PM me and i'll help out (phoenix that is.)

[bilboa]

No hard feelings here LouieB. I have the same allergy to hype, and the desire to counter it so that others reading these threads will get an accurate picture of the pros and cons of various products. If you were to search on RCG and rcheliaddict for posts by me about Phoenix I think you'd find that many of my posts on that topic are discussing problems I've had with Phoenix, partly motivated by wanting to find solutions, and partly motivated by exactly the same thing you said; making sure the cons as well as the pros are published. I guess the same thing goes in the other direction though; when I see a post saying "such and such product is junk", when I happen to know from personal experience that it does have a lot of good points, then I get the same urge to complete the picture as I'd get to counter overly positive hype.

I agree completely about reviews in ad-supported magazines, especially simulator reviews for some reason. At least in some magazines the reviews of aircraft seem to be more in depth, even if they try hard to avoid directly stating any negatives. However I've yet to see an in-depth simulator review in a magazine.

[burnside]

the next update has been announed fr phoenix

http://www.phoenix-sim.com/pages/news.htm

..think a lot of issues will be fixed in this update
[new menus louie!]

cant wait!

[key]

I own Phoenix.. And fly a Trex 450 SA. Spent a couple months on the sim and had these results:

First real-life loop: no crash
First real-life circuit: no crash
First real-life in-place flip: no crash
First inverted hover: no crash
First sideways roll: no crash
First stall turn: no crash

I think those results kind of prove how good Phoenix is.

[LouieB]

the next update has been announed fr phoenix

http://www.phoenix-sim.com/pages/news.htm

..think a lot of issues will be fixed in this update
[new menus louie!]

cant wait!

Yes! Yes! Yes! It is very impressive what Runtime has posted, they are listening to their customers and have taken on the challenge of making the improvements that are needed. Three cheers for Runtime!

I can hardly wait to try out the 1.04 version as it looks like this release will be a big boost to the functionability of Phoenix.

[LouieB]

I own Phoenix.. And fly a Trex 450 SA. Spent a couple months on the sim and had these results:

First real-life loop: no crash
First real-life circuit: no crash
First real-life in-place flip: no crash
First inverted hover: no crash
First sideways roll: no crash
First stall turn: no crash

I think those results kind of prove how good Phoenix is.

That statement is the kind of statement that is misleading, too some degree.

Phoenix is good, and it will certaintly help people learn how to fly a heli or fixed wing. You have put Phoenix to good use and it has paid off for you.

But Phoenix is also lacking in other areas and that is what many of us are saying. Go to the link provided by Burnside and you will see the improvements that Runtime is making. No doubt Runtime will add more features, such as a Cockpit view, the same as Realflight. If you are going to have multi-player then you might as well have cockpit views as well. With cockpit views and multiplayer you could at least have aerial dogfights and play chase or whatever you wanted to do.

Phoenix is getting better and better and that is what all of us want, but perspective new buyers also need to know the whole story about a piece of software.

[bilboa]

Yeah, they claim to have addressed all the issues that annoyed me the most about the current release. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

The main things that bother me about the current release are:


Translational lift is still off
helis drift too much in a hover
HH gyros work too well, with no ability to simulate less than perfect tail holding
Gusts and turbulence don't affect heli enough
Wind direction is always constant, rather than varying somewhat as in real life.

[Daedalus66]

I fully agree that most simulator reviews are virtually useless, little more than a listing of features (but that's true of most of the reviews of any modelling stuff -- though occasionally you do find a thoughtful and frank discussion that really helps you decide on a product). In other words, most reviews are simply uncritical praise -- hype.

On the other hand, many of the comments we find on forums are equally uninformative for the opposite reason -- they are just uncritical condemnation. I don't want to hear raw opinon on a sim, I want to know explicitly why people like/don't like specific aspects and what basis they have for comparison.

I also want people to be clear about what they expect from a sim and how they choose. I have both RealFlight G3.5 and Phoenix. I can't answer the question "Which do you like better?" without explaining what I want from a sim. And I want different things at different times.

My main interest at the moment is in improving my heli flying skills. For that I prefer Phoenix (but must immediately say that G3/3.5 has served me well too). But on the weekend my son and I spent some time trying out slope soaring on G3.5, something Phoenix doesn't offer at all (maybe in 2.0???). Then again, so far, I haven't been interested in multiplayer stuff, but I know it matters a lot to some people. And so on. I like both sims for different reasons.

It's very clear, for example, what Key is looking for in a sim and finding in Phoenix (I'd just add that while his experience shows that Phoenix works as a learning tool, mine shows that G3 does too -- I just think Phx is slightly ahead in this category and has the potential to move further forward with 1.04).

So I'm glad to see when the discussion gets more explicit and more rational, as I think it has lately on this thread.

Cheers to all

[bilboa]

My experience with Phoenix was similar to key's: I completely skipped any RADD's like training, because by the time I went to fly an actual heli I found it was close enough to the Phoenix models that I was flying circuits on my second flight, and I had similar experiences with loops, rolls, flips and stall turns when I tried them. I agree with LouieB's point, that that doesn't prove Phoenix has no flaws, or even that it's better than the other major sims. However it is evidence against the sort of claims like bluesky's on the previous page, that Phoenix is no better than free sims like FMS.

[Daedalus66]

The main things that bother me about the current release are:

Translational lift is still off
helis drift too much in a hover
HH gyros work too well, with no ability to simulate less than perfect tail holding
Gusts and turbulence don't affect heli enough
Wind direction is always constant, rather than varying somewhat as in real life.

1. What's the problem with translational lift?
2. Agree
3. Maybe, but I think some helis have too much tendency to track through turns. I have reduced the fin area to make them feel more like my experience of the real thing.
4. Agree.
5. Agree

[mdavenport]

Ok, so I have purchased Phoenix and got it the other day, installed it and all updates...

Does anyone else find that the electric helis motor sound isn't that reflective of the amount of throttle?

Also, I have been using hte spark trainer as I understand this is the closest to my HBFP? Are there any other sites that maybe I could download a HBFP?

Mark

[LouieB]

Mark,

I am sorry to say that you have discovered early on two of the deficiencies of Phoenix.

The sound that you here for the chosen heli is the only choice you have, with RF you would have a choice of sound files and engines/motors. The only available models for Phoenix are provided by Runtime. They have not released the tools that are necessary for you to import a model that you have created. That tool is to be released at an unknown date in the future.

For all reading this thread, this is not a dig at Phoenix, but shows what I and others have mentioned all along. This is why I challenge all the hype that I read about Phoenix, Phoenxi is a good sim but, it is not as full featured as other available sims. This is also why I was very dismayed about the fact that Runtime pushed ahead with the multiplayer portion and not with the ADK. I still contend that users would have found an ADK and better created models more appealing that multiplayer.

I realise that Runtime is likely following this thread and I will not speak for Mark but, this is an example of a first time customer coming up on the short end of features so Runtime; please, please get an ADK and 'creature features' like selectable engines/motors and their sounds out as soon as possible. These 'creature features' are the features that you are competeing with with other sims, not multiplayer.

[bilboa]

This is also why I was very dismayed about the fact that Runtime pushed ahead with the multiplayer portion and not with the ADK. I still contend that users would have found an ADK and better created models more appealing that multiplayer.

When I first started shopping around for a sim in maybe Oct or Nov of '06, I saw a number of posters dismayed that Phoenix didn't have online multiplayer, and saying how boring it was to practice on a sim without being able to log on with other fliers. So I'm not so sure Runtime Games (RG) made the wrong decision from a business point of view in implementing multiplayer before an ADK.

Personally I care much more about being able to get a sim aircraft to behave like my real model, than I care about making the sim model look and sound like my real model. Phoenix's aircraft editor already does quite a good job of that. My main gripes with the current Phoenix have to do with ways in which the physics engine is inaccurate, which prevent me from getting the behavior of my real model. I'm just pointing this out to make the point that not everyone has the same priorities about what they want RG to tackle first.

[bilboa]

1. What's the problem with translational lift?


I find there isn't enough of it, or maybe it's correct for some models, but in that case it should be an adjustable parameter. I've never flown a heli larger than a mini, so for all I know the larger helis in the sim might already exhibit realistic translational lift. However I couldn't get the Trex 450 or Spark to exhibit translational lift like my Blade CP Pro or Falcon 3D helis.

Basically on my real models, there is a big difference between the amount of throttle/collective required to maintain a hover, and to maintain level forward flight, but in Phoenix the difference in power requirements for FF and hover are barely detectable. For example my Blade CP Pro with stock motor requires about 3/4 collective stick to maintain a hover in normal mode. However once I'm in FF I need a lot less due to translational lift, so I still have some power in reserve. If I configure the Phoenix Spark power so it hovers at 3/4 stick, then it also needs nearly 3/4 stick to maintain FF, because it exhibits much less translational lift. Similar problem occurs if I try to configure the Trex 450 to behave like my Falcon 3D. Conversely if I increase the power so the Phoenix models feel realistic in FF, then they're overpowered in a hover compared to my real models.

[bilboa]

To Mark, to answer your question about an HBFP model: Phoenix does not yet allow you to create new aircraft skins or sounds. However you can completely alter the behavior of any of the existing models to behave like any other model, within the limits of the physics engine. You can also distribute these variants to other users. So while LouieB is right that you can't currently make an HBFP model in Phoenix that looks like an HBFP, you could edit the settings of the Spark to make it fly like one, or find someone else who's already done it and get them to send you their variant file.

[ChrisE]

Just to further show the differences between users let me tell you what I want. I currently fly small electric fixed wing & want to learn helicopters.

Within reason I don't care what the simulator model looks like & I don't care what it sounds like & I have no real interest in the flying field either other than in so far as they effect my ability to fly the model & see what is happening to it. I am not interested in multi player.

What I do want is something where the physics can be made spot on for a particular model (& a healthy supply of such profiles), where atmospheric conditions can be realistically modelled (including the very short term variability) & where I can fly everything from helos, power aircraft (high wing, low wing, 2 3 4 5 channel etc, single engine , multi engine, scale, funfly, 3D, 4D, IC, electric, etc etc etc), slope & thermal gliders, & any flying model that I have missed, as the fancy takes me. In other words I want the simulator model to be able to behave like a real model & be a really useful practice/ training tool.

This seems to be a very different set of priorities to many users. It also is different to much advertising blurb that concentrate so much on appearance and "features". Until someone develops the perfect simulator, & I doubt that they ever will, this means there will never be a consesus as to which is best.

Which simulator do I want?

Chris

[key]

Phoenix is getting better and better and that is what all of us want, but perspective new buyers also need to know the whole story about a piece of software.

I guess I just have a different view of what I want my simulator to be. I want something that has realistic flight, and really couldn't care less about multiplayer, cockpit view (I think using this could really mess up your orientation!), or "real 3D" flying fields.

If I could get something with 100% perfect physics/flight, and all it allowed me to do was fly inside a big box with no graphics at all, I'd buy it. Without something like that though, Phoenix works great for me.

[Gus]

At this point, I prefer Rflex to Phoenix (enough so that I am upgrading to 5.04 with the new Dongle). At some point, I might get to where I prefer Phoenix over Reflex, but it's not there yet.

I believe, even with changes in configuration, Reflex is far more realistic, and I can fly duplicates of my "Fleet" with reflex, where I can't with Phoenix.

I am a firm believer, that a simulator should be harder to fly, than real life, so I set my heli's less stable, and use winds to create problems. that way when I fly the real birds, they are much easier to handle, and get out of trouble when problems arrise.

Just my personal opinion!

Gus...

[Daedalus66]

Re translational lift in Phoenix:
I find there isn't enough of it, or maybe it's correct for some models, but in that case it should be an adjustable parameter.
Thanks for the explanation. I've been practicing mostly with the TRex 600 and had thought it behaved reasonably, but I have limited real experience (with an LAHeli Sniper) for comparison. I will look out for the effect more carefully next time. Or maybe it's a function of different models.

I agree it should be adjustable.

[bilboa]

It may be the case on helis with a higher power-to-weight ratio than my helis that translational lift is less noticeable. My stock Blade CP Pro's power-to-weight ratio is closer to that of a full scale heli, so it takes nearly full power to hover, and therefore the extra lift gained by transitioning into forward flight is very noticeable. From what I hear this is true with full size helis as well. However models like a Trex have much higher power-to-weight ratio, so the amount that you need to move the collective stick forward on going from FF to hover will be a lot less. I'm guessing this is why fliers of these higher performance helis don't notice as much of a problem with Phoenix.

[LouieB]

Yes, very true that everyone has a particular view of what is important in a sim. I myself could do without multiplayer and cockpit views. I personally prefer a good GUI and good physics. When you have a good GUI that has well fitting tools it makes using any program a joy. We all have used programs that had such a poor user interface that we almost hated using the program sometimes. To me good physics is just a given and should be a priority of all sim makers.

I would follow that by photo realism ( eye candy to me but it is important to many others ) and good models.

[mdavenport]

Ok, so I have been flying with phoenix now for a few days and have to say that I have gotten quite used to it. I decided to try AFPD again using the piccola and found it very difficult to control and crashed a whole lot more.

So now I am really confused, I can fly around in Phoenix more than AFPD, what does this say about Phoenix? And what does it say about AFPD?

Is Phoenix the better sim as I find it easier or should it be a lot harder and more twitchy like it is when I use AFPD?

Help, Im more confused now...

[skirtz]

Ok, so I have been flying with phoenix now for a few days and have to say that I have gotten quite used to it. I decided to try AFPD again using the piccola and found it very difficult to control and crashed a whole lot more.

So now I am really confused, I can fly around in Phoenix more than AFPD, what does this say about Phoenix? And what does it say about AFPD?

Is Phoenix the better sim as I find it easier or should it be a lot harder and more twitchy like it is when I use AFPD?

Help, Im more confused now...
You should not be. You simply are not in position to judge the flight model because you have no experience and you are still learning. All simulators will help you learn the eye to hand coordination and help you become better pilot. Just get the simulator that provides the functionality you need most at the price point you can afford. No two real rc models will fly the same, and no two simulators will feel the same. They are different and that is a good think.

Stefan
http://rcflightsim.com

[mdavenport]

skirtz, thanks for your feedback.

Its surprising how much easier I have found Phoenix than AFPD. I have a HBFP and fly this around my garden and have just finished hovering, left in, right in, nose in (almost) and have started to fly to the left, turn around and fly to the right (figure 8 almost).

Since I have been using Phoenix I am finding that I am able to fly around a lot more in the sim and am just waiting for the wind to drop here so I can have a go with my HBFP.

Any recommendations on what to do next with my learning curve, both on sim and with my honey bee?

Mark

[bilboa]

I've never tried AFPD, but I find the Phoenix helis easier in some ways, and harder in some ways, compared to real life. I've found that hovering over a particular spot on the ground, especially with the Trex 450 or Spark in Phoenix, is a lot harder in Phoenix than in real life. However the tail on my real helis doesn't hold as well as the Phoenix helis. Wind doesn't bounce the sim helis up and down nearly as much as in real life.

One important thing to make flying in Phoenix more realistically difficult is to enable wind, gusts, and turbulence. If you'll be flying outside, and if where you live is anything like where I live, the air is almost never calm outside. On the rare occasions that I've actually gotten to fly my helis outside in very calm air, I was surprised at how stable and smooth the heli seems even compared to when there's only a little wind. In the sim I usually leave wind set at 7 mph, with 5 mph gusts, and occasionally practice with it higher.

Another thing is to fly the helis which are most like the one you'll actually be flying. That would probably be the Spark in your case. Larger helis are much easier to fly, so don't spend all your sim time practicing with the Trex 600 for instance if your real heli will be an HBFP or some micro CP heli.

As far as the order of learning, here's what made sense for me:

1. Learn to hover in all orientations. Don't just limit yourself to cardinal directions, but practice with the heli in all angles from you. Make sure you can keep the heli pretty much over any spot on the ground as you very slowly rotate it, even with wind and gusts turned on, without getting disoriented.

2. Forward flight. First circles, then figure eights. Practice actually flying over a particular path on the ground as opposed to just any circle or 8.

3. Stall turns

4. Loops and rolls

5. Backward flight

6. .....

[bilboa]

Another point, don't be afraid to edit the settings of the aircraft. Phoenix currently doesn't have any FP helis, but you can make the Spark more unstable, to more closely match your HBFP, by going to the main rotor edit screen and lowering the stability setting. I found setting stability to about 80 was about right to match my RotoFly.

[mdavenport]

ajenkins, thanks for this information. Just out of interest what do you have the wind direction and turbulance set to??

I have been using the spark trainer as I was told this was similar to the HBFP. Since your comments I have changed the stability to 80 and do think this is closer to my HBFP.

Does anyone know all the settings that would be an almost perfect match for the HBFP, i.e. spark trainer + custom settings or is the spark + custom settings a closer match.

Sorry if this is asking something that hasn't been done yet but was hoping that someone may have already done this for a HBFP.

[bilboa]

I usually set wind direction so that in the starting position I'm facing into the wind. I think that works out to 270 degrees at least for some fields, but I can't remember for sure right now. I leave wind base speed at 7 or 8 mph, wind gusts at 5 mph, with gust frequency Normal, and turbulence set to maybe 30 I think. I haven't found the turbulence simulation all that useful, other than just getting you used to the fact that your heli won't usually fly completely smoothly outside. In real life the turbulence also tips the heli from side to side, forcing you to correct for it, but in Phoenix it just bounces the heli straight up and down, so other than the visual effect you can just ignore it. I think this is one of the things that are supposed to be improved in 1.04.

As for making a Spark behave just like an HBFP, a major difference between the Spark and the HBFP is that the Spark is a collective pitch heli, but the HBFP is fixed pitch. All the helis in Phoenix are CP currently. I did try once for about 20 minutes to make the Spark behave like a FP heli, by setting the maximum, mid range, and minimum collective pitch angles to be the same value, which effectively makes it a fixed pitch heli. I think I tried 7 degrees pitch, and then tried playing with the power settings, but never got it to feel right. I did only try for a few minutes though, so it might be possible to get pretty close. I found that just practicing a lot on the Spark with the stability turned down to around 75 or 80 gave me enough skills so that flying my Heli-Max RotoFly felt easy in comparison, so I didn't bother trying to get it really close. Now that I'm learning aerobatics with my Blade CP Pro, it seems more important to get the flight charactistics of the sim heli close to the real one, but for just learning to hover and basic FF, learning on any similarly unstable heli did the trick.