More cyclic power

[Robert Roland]

I have a Raptor 50, which is completely stock, except for a pair of
carbon main blades.

Now that I have started trying out some aerobatics, I find I want more
cyclic response. I have tried some 3D models in the simulator, and
they are MUCH more responsive.

What do I change to get more cyclic response?

Should I make other changes when starting aerobatics? I have read
about stiffer dampers to avoid boom strikes in the air.
--
RoRo

[The OTHER Kevin in San Diego]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:44:49 +0200, Robert Roland <fake@ddress.no>
wrote:

>I have a Raptor 50, which is completely stock, except for a pair of
>carbon main blades.
>
>Now that I have started trying out some aerobatics, I find I want more
>cyclic response. I have tried some 3D models in the simulator, and
>they are MUCH more responsive.
>
>What do I change to get more cyclic response?
>
>Should I make other changes when starting aerobatics? I have read
>about stiffer dampers to avoid boom strikes in the air.

You can start by removing any flybar weights and replacing the stock
paddles with some nice light ones.

How much cyclic pitch is available?? How's the headspeed?

Stiffer head dampers will help to "sharpen" the cyclic response.

[Robert Roland]

On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:06:52 -0700, The OTHER Kevin in San Diego
<skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote:

>You can start by removing any flybar weights and replacing the stock
>paddles with some nice light ones.

There are no weights. I tried some lighter (white, 25g) paddles today.
It helped, but I want more. I also bought some green, 20g ones. Have
installed them now, but have not flown them yet. Stock paddles weigh
30g.

>How much cyclic pitch is available??

I have not measured. I am not even sure how to measure. I have used
recommended servo horn lengths, so it should be pretty standard.

>How's the headspeed?

Used to be governed at 1700. Increased to 1850 yesterday. It made only
a small difference.

>Stiffer head dampers will help to "sharpen" the cyclic response.

Sounds perfect. I have bought some stiffer dampers, but I have not
installed them yet.

Thanks for your input.
--
RoRo

[Steve R]

"Robert Roland" <fake@ddress.no> wrote in message
news:va7933tlbopbjnvtcp8k3j04kjddb85t9e@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:06:52 -0700, The OTHER Kevin in San Diego
> <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote:
>
> I have not measured. I am not even sure how to measure. I have used
> recommended servo horn lengths, so it should be pretty standard.

Put your pitch gauge on the main blades and set the collective to 0 degrees.
Then simply line up the rotor head as appropriate and read the blade
defection for left/right and for/aft cyclic. A +/- 5 degrees will give a
pretty sedate cyclic response on most birds I've flown. If you can increase
the tilt of the swashplate to around the +/- 7 degree point that should
help. Just make sure, after you do the adjustments, that none of the ball
links on the flybar, main blade pitch arms, and washout unit are
binding/hitting anything at maximum control input. As long as they're not,
you're good to go.

>
>>How's the headspeed?
>
> Used to be governed at 1700. Increased to 1850 yesterday. It made only
> a small difference.
>
>>Stiffer head dampers will help to "sharpen" the cyclic response.
>
> Sounds perfect. I have bought some stiffer dampers, but I have not
> installed them yet.
>
> Thanks for your input.
> --
> RoRo
>

Since the increase in rotor speed didn't help that much, changing to the
harder dampers should make a difference. Let us know how it goes.

Good luck,
Steve R.

[The OTHER Kevin in San Diego]

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:42:39 -0500, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:


>Since the increase in rotor speed didn't help that much, changing to the
>harder dampers should make a difference. Let us know how it goes.

I haven't had my 1st cup (pot?) of coffee yet this morning, but flybar
length has an effect on cyclic response as well. I just forget if
longer = faster or shorter = faster. Common sense is telling me
longer=faster tho...

[Beav]

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote in
message news:d36c33hkavq4f8c1rla4uheundg65g01ev@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:42:39 -0500, "Steve R"
> <srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Since the increase in rotor speed didn't help that much, changing to the
>>harder dampers should make a difference. Let us know how it goes.
>
> I haven't had my 1st cup (pot?) of coffee yet this morning, but flybar
> length has an effect on cyclic response as well. I just forget if
> longer = faster or shorter = faster. Common sense is telling me
> longer=faster tho...

Is the correct answer:)


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

[Troy Telford]

Robert Roland wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 10:06:52 -0700, The OTHER Kevin in San Diego
> <skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net> wrote:
>
>>You can start by removing any flybar weights and replacing the stock
>>paddles with some nice light ones.
>
> There are no weights. I tried some lighter (white, 25g) paddles today.
> It helped, but I want more. I also bought some green, 20g ones. Have
> installed them now, but have not flown them yet. Stock paddles weigh
> 30g.

I personally like the lightweight .50 size Miniature Aircraft paddles:
They're as light as the TT greens, but have a sharper (and therefore more
agressive) leading edge.

I've also been quite pleased with the V-blade paddles.

The paddle's airfoil can play as much of a role as the weight of the paddle.

If you want to play with weights, try a set of Hirobo Sceadu paddles. These
have two weights in each you can remove, so you can play with four
different paddle weights without having to change paddles.

>
>>How much cyclic pitch is available??
>
> I have not measured. I am not even sure how to measure. I have used
> recommended servo horn lengths, so it should be pretty standard.
>
>>How's the headspeed?
>
> Used to be governed at 1700. Increased to 1850 yesterday. It made only
> a small difference.
>
>>Stiffer head dampers will help to "sharpen" the cyclic response.
>
> Sounds perfect. I have bought some stiffer dampers, but I have not
> installed them yet.
>
> Thanks for your input.

--
Troy Telford

[Robert Roland]

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:41:12 +0200, I wrote:

>There are no weights. I tried some lighter (white, 25g) paddles today.
>It helped, but I want more. I also bought some green, 20g ones. Have
>installed them now, but have not flown them yet. Stock paddles weigh
>30g.

Finally got a chance to try the green ones. They are quite a bit
faster, but the response is still quite soft and smooth. I want more
direct, or "crisp" response. I expect the stiffer dampers is what I
need. Will install them now.
--
RoRo

[Robert Roland]

On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:42:39 -0500, "Steve R"
<srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:

>> I have not measured. I am not even sure how to measure. I have used
>> recommended servo horn lengths, so it should be pretty standard.
>
>Put your pitch gauge on the main blades and set the collective to 0 degrees.
>Then simply line up the rotor head as appropriate and read the blade
>defection for left/right and for/aft cyclic.

It seems to me, that will only measure the Bell portion of the input,
and therefore only be valuable as a comparison against others who have
the same rotor head?

>A +/- 5 degrees will give a
>pretty sedate cyclic response on most birds I've flown.

It's difficult to get accurate measurements with my gauge, but it
seems I have around 6-8 degrees.

>If you can increase
>the tilt of the swashplate to around the +/- 7 degree point that should
>help. Just make sure, after you do the adjustments, that none of the ball
>links on the flybar, main blade pitch arms, and washout unit are
>binding/hitting anything at maximum control input. As long as they're not,
>you're good to go.

I'll see how far it can go. But I'll try the stiffer dampers first.
--
RoRo

[Thomas Korff]

Robert Roland schrieb:
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 15:41:12 +0200, I wrote:
>
>> There are no weights. I tried some lighter (white, 25g) paddles today.
>> It helped, but I want more. I also bought some green, 20g ones. Have
>> installed them now, but have not flown them yet. Stock paddles weigh
>> 30g.
>
> Finally got a chance to try the green ones. They are quite a bit
> faster, but the response is still quite soft and smooth. I want more
> direct, or "crisp" response. I expect the stiffer dampers is what I
> need. Will install them now.

Maybe you need to change (upgrade) the pitchservo too.

Tom

[Steve R]

"Robert Roland" <fake@ddress.no> wrote in message
news:242j531mnt000b55ehnprdd8e6icm5r7ba@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:42:39 -0500, "Steve R"
> <srhodes13@houston.rr.nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>> I have not measured. I am not even sure how to measure. I have used
>>> recommended servo horn lengths, so it should be pretty standard.
>>
>>Put your pitch gauge on the main blades and set the collective to 0
>>degrees.
>>Then simply line up the rotor head as appropriate and read the blade
>>defection for left/right and for/aft cyclic.
>
> It seems to me, that will only measure the Bell portion of the input,
> and therefore only be valuable as a comparison against others who have
> the same rotor head?
>

That's true, but it's the only way you can actually measure cyclic throws.
What the flybar is doing to the main blades cyclic movements is effected by
the size of the paddles, the shape of the paddles, and the weight of the
paddles, the length of the flybar, the stiffness of the flybar, main rotor
rpm, etc.! In other words, there's no way to really know. So, you measure
the bell side of things because it's a fixed entity and you work from there.
Increasing cyclic throws to the main blades will be doing the same thing to
the flybar too. It all works together although in some situations, the
flybar is actually fighting against the commanded cyclic inputs. That's why
the flybar can help stabilize the rotor system as well as make it more
twitchy. It's all in the setup!

Fly Safe,
Steve R.

[Robert Roland]

On Mon, 28 May 2007 13:52:58 +0200, Thomas Korff
<thomas.korff@addcom.de> wrote:

>Maybe you need to change (upgrade) the pitchservo too.

If the new dampers don't give the desired result, I'll try that. I
have all JR DS811 servos. I was told they are plenty strong enough for
the R50.
--
RoRo

[Robert Roland]

On Sun, 27 May 2007 11:07:08 +0200, I wrote:

>I expect the stiffer dampers is what I
>need. Will install them now.

While installing the dampers, I re-discovered (have noticed them
before, but completely forgotten about them) an extra pair of holes in
a lever just above the swash plate. This allows the link balls to be
moved a little outwards to give the flybar more throw.

The manual recommends the inner holes for "normal and 3D", and the
outer for "extreme 3D".

That will be the next experiment if needed.
--
RoRo

[Robert Roland]

On Sun, 27 May 2007 11:07:08 +0200, I wrote:

>Finally got a chance to try the green ones. They are quite a bit
>faster, but the response is still quite soft and smooth. I want more
>direct, or "crisp" response. I expect the stiffer dampers is what I
>need. Will install them now.

Got the red, harder dampers in the air at last (at least I'm not
wearing the machine out very fast:-). I'm very pleased with the
result. The roll rate increased only a little, but the feel is much
better: A more direct and quick response to the cyclic stick. Just
what I was looking for. I'm gonna leave it like this for a while.

Thanks to everyone who helped out.
--
RoRo

[Robert Roland]

On Tue, 29 May 2007 15:24:56 +0200, I wrote:

>While installing the dampers, I re-discovered (have noticed them
>before, but completely forgotten about them) an extra pair of holes in
>a lever just above the swash plate. This allows the link balls to be
>moved a little outwards to give the flybar more throw.
>
>The manual recommends the inner holes for "normal and 3D", and the
>outer for "extreme 3D".
>
>That will be the next experiment if needed.

After having flown the Raptor 50 for a while and being completely
satisfied with the performance, I bought an Align T-rex 450. That
little bugger is unbelievably responsive, but still smooth and stable
to hover with ease. After a few flights with the T-rex, the Raptor
felt so slow and sluggish, I decided to try the "extreme" setting.
WHAT A DIFFERENCE! The Raptor is now so quick on the cyclic, I prefer
to reduce the throw to about 70% for hovering.

I suspect, however, that it is important to have the stiffer dampers
installed when flying with this much cyclic power. Otherwise, the risk
of a boom strike might be too high.
--
RoRo