NSP Hybrid vs. Kennedy Graphite D-Box

[slozuke]

I am in the market for a 3-meter full house plane with an open bay type wing to complement an AVA. I think I have it narrowed down to the two I like but I'd like to hear some input from others. I am looking at the NSP Hybrid and the Graphite D-box built-up wing from Kennedy. I like the open bay construction and they go with my AVA. Hey, what can I say? They gotta look good together, don't they? I plan to compete but I'm not a serious hardcore "gotta win" type. I'm mostly in it for the fun. :)

Does anyone have any experience with either plane?
How well do they winch launch?
How well do they move across the sky for thermal hunting?
How well do they thermal?
How durable are they?
The Hybrid is about $700, the Graphite is about $875, both plus shipping.
I know, tough choice to make. :D Any comments, rude gestures :eek: or....?
Any helpful input appreciated.
Thanks!

[regis]

I do not know anything about the Hybrid. You will love the Graphite. It can take a hard launch. And I think that parts are available for the Graphite (ask Kennedy what they have in stock). It would surprise me if NSP had any replacement parts. If cost is not an issue, go for the Graphite. Regis

[wingbeat]

You can also check Isthmus Models- www.isthmusmodels.com- for a Piper. I believe made by the same folks as the Hybrid. It's a cross-tail (Soprano fuse I think), 4 servo Hybrid wing, but with Soprano outer tips. (Mark's configuration is aimed to make it better for thermal than Hybrid tips) At least that's how I understand it... and I have one!!

Absolutely gorgeous quality. Very light. Mine is getting built out very soon- so I haven't flown it yet. Plan on using it for light air sloping and off a Little Big Winch because of it's light weight. The quality is top notch, really a beautiful bird.

cheers,
Michael

[Mark Miller]

A Piper is really a cross tail Hybrid with tips that are lighter and have a bit of polyhedral.

There is also the Trio which is the same wing on a pod and boom fuselage.

Both will take a good hard launch and thermal very nicely. I am expecting some in with my next shipment due in 3 to 4 weeks Customs willing.

I will also soon have the Blizzard which is a cross tail fuselage with carbon molded 3.34 meter wing. SD 7037 airfoil. It is very popular in Russia and Ukraine for F3J and should be a good light entry level molded TD design. I expect to have 3 in about a month. $800.00 plus shipping

[slozuke]

regis - you have a good point about the spare parts

mark - I like the Trio, I'm glad you spoke up. It has the same airfoil and wingspan as the Graphite. I like the x-tail configuration better on the Trio, more AVA style. What do you have for spare parts for the Trio? What colors are available, or is that wait and see what comes in? And the price is certainly better. :D

[regis]

After I posted, I thought , “why didn’t I mention the Trio and the Piper“. I actually own a Soprano and a Trio (but I haven’t flown the Trio yet) and I can vouch for Mark Miller - he will take care of you. The Blizzard will be a fine option, too. Regis

[Mark Miller]

I have flown the Trio and it is a sweet ship. Mine was 63 oz. RTF. The one I had did not have the wing tip improvements that the current ones have. It will be a more stable plane to fly than the old one but the old one was not bad either.

On this order colors are whatever comes in. I usually have a choice but on this one I did not. I try and carry parts for all my planes but I do not always have everything. I can of course order anything you need.

Don't forget about the Piper XL either. 134" span Piper. They are sweet.

I curently have a Trio E in stock. Basically an electric Trio with a flapped Soprano wing for you electric fans out there. I have a few coming in the next order too as well as Soprano E.

My stock is currently low as I will be moving to St. Louis as soon as we sell our house and didn't want to move so much stuff. But like I said I have an order in transit now and am putting together the next right now. If you want something I can get it in the next shipment if it is not in the one coming.

Mark Miller
Isthmus Models

[wingbeat]

Don't want to hijack the thread, but would love to hear your servo recommendations for a large lightweight thermal bird like my Piper. It's a bit of a different bird for me, so I'm not quite sure what to use. Not a huge fan of HS125s. If analog, what would you use? Digital? Combination?

thanks guys
(good luck on the move Mark... hope there's more flying weather in St.Louie than here in Wisconsin!)

[Mark Miller]

I would use JR 368's or the Airtronics 94761Z in the wing. I like digitals these days.

The St. louie guys have been flying for a month or so. I have not been since November.

Mark

[slozuke]

Thanks everybody for your input! I did some more researching and I ended up liking the Trio and placed my order today with Mark. To me it was the best overall bang for the buck between the three.
- They all use the same airfoil and D-tube construction
- The Trio and Graphite have a x-tail (my preference)
- Isthmus and Kennedy have some parts and are more likely better to get parts as needed as opposed to the Hybrid at NSP. Sorry, Sal. :(
- Trio and Graphite are pod and boom (my preference)
- None of the above can guarantee color :(
Overall I like the Graphite just slightly better only because I am familiar with Vladimirs planes (I already own an AVA and Blaster). When it came down to $$$ I didn't like the Graphite enough to justify the extra $175 price difference between the two. So, Trio wins.

Thanks guys!

Now...anyone got four DS368's they want to sell? :D

[Jurgen]

The only thing i'm not assured of: is if the cross tail fuse of the blizzard is the same as the one from Soprano-hybrid-piper? Mounting included? Just swap wings on same fuse?
Thanks, Jurgen.

[Mark Miller]

They all have different bolt patterns.

Mark

[Jurgen]

Another question while we are at the russian house:
would anyone buy a Soprano only because of the fact that it suits the RES rules and in any other case go for the fullhouse hybrid/piper?
Or is the Soprano so darn good fun that it's not nessessary to go full house?
In other words, if we forget the RES competition for a while, when/why would one choose Soprano over Hybrid/piper or visa versa? Is Soprano only good for RES purposes or does it have meaningfull life outside that circle?

AVA seems to have more dehedral than Soprano? Practical consequenses?

Jurgen.

[Jurgen]

They all have different bolt patterns.Thanks Mark for clearing up.

[tknuutti]

Don't know about the Soprano specifically, but sometimes on a calm day it's very relaxing to fly just an RES-ship. No need to fly left stick and no messing with camber/reflex, just float around the sky (Or sink if in the wrong part of sky..) If one already has a full-house high performance plane for the windier days then a floaty RES makes a nice addition.
The full-house Hybrid/Piper will certainly have higher performance than RES-version, if setup and flown right.

Soprano is quite a bit heavier than the AVA, so it will fly at higher speed and won't need so much dihedral for positive control.

[Jim Frahm]

I've owned and flown both planes. The quality of the Graphite I had was a little better than the Hybrid. All the control surfaces on the Hybrid were too loose for my taste. But, they both fly very well. You'll be happy with either one.

Jim

[tonyestep]

I don't have a Soprano, but one of our club members, Mark Nankivil, does. It is a great-flying plane, very smooth in flight as if it were a full-house ship. Mark has done very well with it in competition against unlimited planes. When the wind blows and the thermals are turbulent, it appears to do better than an Ava.

I haven't flown Mark Nankivil's plane, but I have flown Mark Miller's Soprano briefly, and once again the word that comes to mind is smooth.

I do have a Piper, which is actually related to the topic of this thread, and another of our club members has a Hybrid.

I would say that despite all the bad press that NES gets, the Hybrid is a darn good plane and worth the money. It is certainly competitive with the Piper. When the air is light, both are competitive in Unlimited. Even more competitive in light air is the Piper XL, or as I call it, the Piperius Maximus. One of my regular flying buddies has one of those, and I have seen it fly many times and flown it myself. It floats better than the standard Piper or the Soprano, and when laden with 22 oz. of ballast it does pretty well in wind and chop.

Really, all of these planes are fun to fly and give enjoyable performance -- and they cost only half as much as one of the hot fashion queens. They won't take an F3J launch and they won't go 100 mph, but maybe you don't care.

[Mark Miller]

In my opinion the Soprano vs Piper vs Trio question is really one of taste. I find a RES plane to be more relaxing to fly and generally fly better with one. But then I grew up on them and am a very right stick centric flyer. Other folks would rather fly a full house plane.

Remember a Soprano won the Gateway Open last year in very windy conditions. In the right hands it can beat the unlimited planes. So can a Piper or Trio. Just like any plane, you need to know your skills and your plane and one must compliment the other.

Just got some cool news. Daryl Perkins will be flying a Soprano in RES at the NATS this year.

Mark Miller

[Mark Miller]

Jim,

I have worked hard to improve the quality of the Ukranian planes I sell. I would expect things have improved since you had your Hybrid.

Mark

[aeajr]

Just to fill out the comments here, we have a pilot with two graphites at or club. He stands on that pedal in all kinds wind with no flex of the wings at all.

The plane is beautiful in the air, grabs lift wonderfully and lands very nicely. You can ballast it up for windy days too!

[Jim Frahm]

Mark,

I'm sure they have and I was not trying to kit bash by any means. I was able to correct all the minor problems with ease.

I'm sure everyone appreciates your efforts in importing the planes, thus giving us many choices.

Jim

[Jurgen]

...They won't take an F3J launch and they won't go 100 mph, but maybe you don't care.Thanks Tony (and others) so far. Indeed one has to respect the purpose of a plane, and loving it therefore.

So far we could read here that Graphite might be little stronger on winch launch than piper-hybrid-soprano.

If believe that the Piper = hybrid+SopranoWingTips
and Piper XL = HybridDetect+SopranoWingTips

Jurgen.

[Mark Miller]

Jurgen,

I'm not sure about the strength difference. Since they have the same soars and such I would expect the them to be the same. You are correct except that the fuselage is totally different between the V-Tail and cross tail. The cross tail fuselage is the same as Soprano.

Jim,

I didn't take it as bashing at all. A lot of the guys making these planes all started out at Vladimirs so they are somewhat similar in construction. Vladimir, my guy and the guy who does the Topaz and Onyx are from the same city. It was the home of the Russian aerospace industry so you have a lot of talented people with cool technology. They are all hand built and like our own hand built planes can vary in quality from time to time.

Mark

[Wing-span]

I have flown a Trio and Hybrid and feel the wings are too flat, ie not enough dihedral.

MM, have people mentioned this before or is it just me? I think another degree under each tip would make a huge difference for the better.

[Mark Miller]

Wing,

I tend to agree and have been trying to get some versions to test which have the same dihedral as the RES Soprano. But that may not be necessary as I also feel the change we made to the tip sections by adding polyhedral will do the job as well. Did the ones you flew have flat tips or the poly tips? The have made a production change where all of the full house planes which that manufacturer produces will have the poly tips.

Mark Miller
Isthmus Models

[wingbeat]

anyone have cg recommendations for Piper? Mark?

thx

[Mark Miller]

Gee...To many Wings arond here.

Start at 85 mm. from the LE at the root. You will probably be moving it back but it's a good starting place.

Mark

[wingbeat]

Thanks Mark.

I'm lucky to have Dave Hauch outfitting my Piper. (http://www.git-r-built.com). I know it's a relatively simple outfitting, but I'm working a lot, and not making much time for model building. Besides, Dave will do justice to the quality of the sailplane. Will post pics when she's done.


Gee...To many Wings arond here.

Start at 85 mm. from the LE at the root. You will probably be moving it back but it's a good starting place.

Mark

[Jurgen]

Just a thought for a flapped Soprano:
Since it's not a RES anyway, one might (dunno if it's hardware possible concerning available space) tinker two servo's for the flap, which become flapS. This would enable to make it flapperons. Not immediately as effective as real ailerons but it might give just that bit of extra steering with gentle deflection of course. Advantage is that the tips stay as light as possible, a bonus for thermalling and weight distribution.
Good idea?
Jurgen.

[Mark Miller]

I will have some flapped Sopranos here in about 3 weeks. I usually sell them as the electric version of the Soprano but it could be built with a regular glider front. It may make a cool light wind unlimited f3j plane. The flaps require two servos and could be set up as a flaperon via Tx programming.

Mark

[Jurgen]

Thx Mark for correction, I thought the flaps was only 1 servo driven like the spoiler, no good research of me :)
Found this one, shows 2servo's clearly:
http://www.f3-modellbau.de/drupal_n/images/models/soprano/kit_b_1.jpg

someone did use flapperon programming on his Soprano? Outcome?
Jurgen.

[Mark Miller]

No one has tried it yet. There are only a few of them so far in the country.

Mark

[Wing-span]

Mark,

The models I flew had the flat tips.

I would love to try the flapped Soprano.

[mstone]

Hi,

I have a Trio Electric and a Soprano and although the bolt holes at the rear don't line up on my example the front holes did line up. There was enough aluminium plate under the rear to simply drill and tap a new hole so I can swap the wings between the two fuselages.

I use the Soprano in RES comps and the Trio in F5J (Oz style).

The Saprano uses a couple of couple of JR381s on Rudder and elevator and HS56 on spoiler. The Soprano gets out climbed on still days with light lift but as soon as the wind blows it has the advantage.

The Trio is currently running a Neu 1509/1Y/5.2 from 3S 3700mAh with a 15x13 Aeronaut prop just over 800W for very good climb rate.
The wings have JR331s on Ailerons, HS85MG on flaps, JR362 (JR368BB) on elevator and JR375 (JR241?) on the rudder.

All up weight of 2170g so it flies very well. Very smooth and easy to fly the Trio turns better with the larger rudder than a friends 3.4m electric Hybrid with cross tail.

Mark

[slozuke]

The Trio wings have JR331s on Ailerons, HS85MG on flaps, JR362 (JR368BB) on elevator and JR375 (JR241?) on the rudder.

Mark,
How do those HS85MG servos work on the flaps? How's the fit?
Ditto on the JR331's

I just placed an order for a Trio and am looking around for servos to put in it. I was going to put in digital JR 368's but they are a bit $$$. I may consider the servos you listed if they work out okay.

Mark Miller - I hope my Trio comes in those colors shown on the Trio-E shown above. That violet/yellow is nice! :D

Brian

[Mark Miller]

Brian,

I hope you get the color you want or close to it. Just for clarification to those of you out there, usually I can order the colors of my or the customers choice. This next order coming in I had to take as it was. I have a feeling someone reniged on a big order so I got to have it. I'll know more when it arrives.

The order should be sent out this week I feel. Europe was on holiday and folks are just getting back this week. My guy was touring Russia and I've had a hard time sending and receiving emails to him.

I have used HS-85MG's in this wing. They will fit but while they work I am generally not a fan of them if I have a choice. It is a personal preference so use them if you like. I do not recall if the HS-225MS's will fit for flaps or not. I built a Piper a few years back for Larry Fogel and used HS-85 MG's all around. They worked. e other choice may be the Multiplex Pico Digitals. Basically a digital HS-85. I use them in 2 meter planes and they perform well.

Mark

[mstone]

Brain,

There is plenty of room in the wings for 331s and the HS85mg. I would have liked to have put 362s (368BB) all round but than would have cost as much at the plane and I didn't have the cash spare. I haven't had any problems with the HS85mg and they really don't have to work that hard. It is amazing how little I have to put back into the RX pack after flying the flight pack out.

The yellow/violet is nice the yellow does disapear went you are up high on those bright blue sky days but the wing tip as still clear.

Mark

[Wing-span]

I've just bought myself a secondhand and well used Graphite.

Has anybody got anything to say about the Graphite?

I am going to refit new hs-85mg's on the flaps. How are you Graphite owners attaching the control horns?

Also does anybody have any C/G locations and control surface movements for the V-tail they don't mind sharing?

[Jim Lin]

This is my Hybrid under construction. :p
I used 6 Futaba 3102.

[slozuke]

Cool! I found a great deal on some HS5125's here on RCG for my Trio wing. So that will leave me enough $$$ to get 368's for the rudder and stab servos and I'll be all digital. Yahoo!

[slozuke]

Cool! I found a great deal on some HS5125's here on RCG for my Trio wing. So that will leave me enough $$$ to get 368's for the rudder and stab servos and I'll be all digital. Yahoo!

Hey Jim - Nice Hybrid! Ya just gotta love those open bay wings! :D I like them on my AVA and I'm going to like it on my Trio too.
One of your pics shows the USB connector. Are you using the USB for servo connections? Can't say I've seen that one. How does it do weight-wise, I'm sure the connection must be very good.

Oops! Thought I was editing and I guess I re-posted instead! :o

[Jim Lin]

One of your pics shows the USB connector. Are you using the USB for servo connections? Can't say I've seen that one. How does it do weight-wise, I'm sure the connection must be very good.


Yes, I used USB connector (it is cheap) for servo connection.
USB connector is suitable for thousands of plug-in/out. 4 pins is enough for 2 servos. Most important of all, the size of hole just fit with connector. :D

[slozuke]

Not knowing the exact size of the Trio fuse I would like to order a rx battery pack for it so I will have everything in hand when my plane arrives. My plane will be sailplane only, no motor.

Mark Miller, what do you (or any other Trio owners) recommend for battery size? My AVA uses a 4 cell 1850 mah NiMh and I would like to use at least that size if not a bit larger. But what physical size fits the Trio? Is it a AA square, AA flat or someting custom? Can someone give me the approximate dimensions of the space I have to work with?

thanks,
Brian

[Mark Miller]

I usually use a 5 cell 2/3 AA flat pack of about 1100 to 1200 mha. You could use a 4 cell pack of the same specs but I am sold on the 5 cell deal. You need the nose weight anyway so why not use it in extra voltage? I can supply battery packs to your specs if you like.

Mark Miller
Isthmus Models

[slozuke]

Mark,
I'm sending you an email re: batteries for the Trio.

[glidagida]

Another question while we are at the russian house:
would anyone buy a Soprano only because of the fact that it suits the RES rules and in any other case go for the fullhouse hybrid/piper?
Or is the Soprano so darn good fun that it's not nessessary to go full house?
In other words, if we forget the RES competition for a while, when/why would one choose Soprano over Hybrid/piper or visa versa? Is Soprano only good for RES purposes or does it have meaningfull life outside that circle?

AVA seems to have more dehedral than Soprano? Practical consequenses?

Jurgen.

Hi Jurgen

The Soprano is a good plane in its own right and that is just as TK Nuuttie says. I like it because it has all the relaxing qualities of RES and the ability to launch on F3B winches without worrying about the wings plus with the MH32 it will surprise you with its ability to range for lift.

From memory you fly a Zenith/Corado 2000 and the Hybrid would overlap the Zeniths flight envelope and give similar light weather performance but not the same level of penetration in windier weather. Not terribly much to be gained as the two models ovelap, but the Piper would be more relaxing 'hands off' and the Soprano more so.

The Soprano handles well, [just be sure to get maximum rudder throw] for a big RES bird and when correctly trimmed it will seek out thermals and core them all by itself plus it has the ability to ride very light/narrow lift which is unusual for such a large plane. It is ideal for those slow, low lift evenings when the brain and the bod are tired and you just want to enjoy. One light day I had with a friend flying an Eraser carbon getting 5 minute flights and I was up at 3-400m getting 45 minutes plus flights.

I guess what I am saying is that it has a niche where it excells outside RES contests.

Cheers
GG

[Jurgen]

Thanks for these nice words about Soprano.

Took time to consider but numerous reasons lead me buying an Organic 2.5, one is to break it down in small parts so to fit hidden in the back trunk of my Opel Astra to have it along on any trip. Buying a bigger car was no option. I'll go electro and glider nose cone. Making choices is trading off and Soprano was top contender! Comparing Soprano and Organic, they're build by twin brothers in russia :)

Thx again, Jurgen.