Why giant scale?

[Fokker Ace]

I'm somewhat new to the hobby (my limited experience is with small park flyers) but I've always been curious as to why people would want to build and fly models which are so big.

I understand they probably fly more like "real" aircraft, but some of these things are so big they would need a garage for storage.

Nothing against the big stuff - I think some of it is amazing - but how often are people able to get these things in the air? And if there's a crash, how do people get the nerve to try again?!

[Jocke]

Bigger is better ;) they fly much better, sounds better, feels better, and you can see them better in the air to :)

I cant go fly big scale electric every day... but sometimes its real nice to fly something bigger, i like to fly everything on batteries from smal 100w to big 10kw.

[jonnyjetprop]

Big airplanes tend to fly smoother, they handle wind better, easier to see and can be easier to learn to fly ( not a scale model, but think giant Kadet).

John

[cooper998]

Its not the size that matters, its what you can do with it.
Some of us just like bigger stuff or have reached the age where we can't see the small stuff.
My smallest plane is an electric Zap Machine which I enjoy flying as often as possible but it doesnt match the thrill of flying a large stable airplane in a scale like manner.

cooper998

[Coastwatcher]

I'm also a fan of the larger planes and I've been working my way up the ladder from a modest start in foam parkies. I really enjoy the 40 and 60 size planes for ease of transportation, cost and such and will continue to build them. But, ultimately I have three 80"+ scale projects planned for 2007 year.

I'm glade to see this forum develop. In time, As elecrtic RC evolves , more people will eventually be able to participate in this scale and enjoy it as much as the gas/glow crowd does now.

[shaneyee]

I like to build big because it really gratifies my ego...

Shane

[cyclops2]

Thank you Mr. Shaneyee for telling the truth.

Bless you.

[blucor basher]

Wind. I get really, really tired of beautiful days going to waste because of wind. Big planes, no problem w/ wind.

[Fokker Ace]

I'd be too tempted to put a squirrel in the cockpit of a big plane.

Big electircs are cool, but the batteries are still so expensive.

[MiniBoy]

I'd be too tempted to put a squirrel in the cockpit of a big plane.

Big electircs are cool, but the batteries are still so expensive.
Naturally .. there are different ways to look at this ...

400 flights on a $150.00 battery pack = $.37 per flight.

Add a decent $100.00 charger to that, and it's $.62 per flight.

6 oz. of nitro fuel ( and that's not much ) at $20.00 / gallon = $.94 per flight

(I used some pretty high $$ for the battery and charger for a .40 to .60 size plane, too.)

Then, when you factor in the brushless motor will last indefinitely .. with just about NO maintenance, the $1.00 a roll paper towels and rags that have to be washed to clean up the goo, the airframe will last many times longer due to no viration and soaking in slime .. and .. ultimately, you won't loose your flying field, or have it's hours limited to 3 hours a day .. electric is a bargain. You just have to come to grips with the fact that, as stated earlier, you are buying a lot of "Battery Fuel" up front.

Just another angle,

Russ :)

[SHELBY1]

Something else on big birds. They are a lot easier to work on. Trying to squeeze my fat fingers in, blocking my view of a tiny compartment , I end up doing the seeing eye finger install often.
And they are easier to find when all goes wrong. Usually a bigger smoking crater, larger debris field, or a big old wing sticking up out of the weeds. I've done more then my share of grid searches looking for one of my little birds when they go down, waaaaay out there in waist high grass.

[P-51C]

Naturally .. there are different ways to look at this ...

400 flights on a $150.00 battery pack = $.37 per flight.

Add a decent $100.00 charger to that, and it's $.62 per flight.

6 oz. of nitro fuel ( and that's not much ) at $20.00 / gallon = $.94 per flight

(I used some pretty high $$ for the battery and charger for a .40 to .60 size plane, too.)

Then, when you factor in the brushless motor will last indefinitely .. with just about NO maintenance, the $1.00 a roll paper towels and rags that have to be washed to clean up the goo, the airframe will last many times longer due to no viration and soaking in slime .. and .. ultimately, you won't loose your flying field, or have it's hours limited to 3 hours a day .. electric is a bargain. You just have to come to grips with the fact that, as stated earlier, you are buying a lot of "Battery Fuel" up front.

Just another angle,

Russ :)


Lets face it, people can try to rationalize the cost with the "up front" argument forever. But one crash and you just lost your $300.00 dollar "up front cost" in addition to the plane. If flying Gas or glow, you may lose a few dollars in addition to the plane.

I just toasted $300.00 worth of LiPO's that had about 30 flights on them total. No crashes. Either one had a bad tab in it, or my wattmeter shorted and caused the battery damage. Don't know which caused the other, but the batteries and wattmeter are both useless for a total of $360.00 after about 30 flights. ($12.00/flight)

It boils down to: bigger electrics are more expensive than small electrics and their large gas counter parts. There are some advantages to each. If you like what electric has to offer, and CAN AFFORD TO LOSE THE COST OF THE BATTERIES in addition to the other potential costs involved in a crash or shorted meter etc, then by all means try it out!

[Greg McNair]

Why giant scale? Why have a green weed-free lawn? Why drive a Corvette? Why own a Harley? Why marry a pretty woman? Because we want to, that's why. Why question why? This was my biggest project. One day I hope to do a giant electric plane (the Sr Telemaster didn't count...I want an AgCat or Pilatus Porter).

[Viper Pilot]

. . . 6 oz. of nitro fuel ( and that's not much ) at $20.00 / gallon = $.94 per flight. . . MOST big birds run on gasoline rather than glow. The current price of $2.50/gallon converts to $.12 per flight.

But, more reasonably, the big birds use 16 oz. or so to fuel their planes. That converts to $.31 per flight. Quite a bargain, actually. And, I can refuel, and be in the air in minutes. No waiting for the batteries to recharge.

You could buy a second battery pack, but then your overall costs just doubled.

[MiniBoy]

Greg:

Let's be honest ....

It's because we're BRATZ !!!

Off topic, but, Your heli is a beauty .. Is it a Vario .. Graupner .. other ??

I'm about to get one for a Jet Ranger fuse, and one for a camera ship .. chatting with Joe Howard at East coast Vario to get some stuff ordered up. He's a half hour from me .. pretty convenient !

Russ

[MiniBoy]

MOST big birds run on gasoline rather than glow. The current price of $2.50/gallon converts to $.12 per flight.

But, more reasonably, the big birds use 16 oz. or so to fuel their planes. That converts to $.31 per flight. Quite a bargain, actually. And, I can refuel, and be in the air in minutes. No waiting for the batteries to recharge.

You could buy a second battery pack, but then your overall costs just doubled.
Hi Viper:

Well, I certainly agree about gas .. had plenty of them in giant scale offshore race boat models a couple or three years ago .. clean, pretty quiet, easy to start, ultra reliable, no tinkering .. just a lot of fun. It will be a long time before electric will replace those powerplants unless some really magical, high energy, low cost battery chemistry appears on the horizon.

Russ :)

[mcharles13]

I'm glad to see a Giant Scale forum. I voted yes :)

I plan on doing a giant scale plane this spring/summer. Not sure which yet. I already have an 80" cub but i dont know if that truly classifies as giant scale. Kinda feel like i'm cheating with that one since a cubs wingspan is so freaking huge.

Batteries dont have to be so expensive for this size range. 2 new options have emerged. Emoli for casual flying and a123 for performance flying. Both are physically tougher and safer chemistry. Slightly heavier than lipo but honestly with giant scale is the plane gonna care?

These bigger planes are the reason i went into business and started selling these alternative packs. I got tired of small planes and refused to pay the lipo costs for big packs. especially if i crash and ruin the pack. At least this way it's cheaper and when i crash the pack is still usable.

,mike
www.bigerc.com

[ElectRick]

I've done a couple of large electrics, and plan to do a couple more, because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.

As I read through this thread, one of the recurring arguments against large scale electrics being practical, centers around potential loss of a large LiPo pack in a crash.

Can somebody tell me why this issue has never been specifically addressed by the battery manufacturers? Can't there be some way to put the cells into a metal or resilient plastic (carbon fiber?) casing, or incorporate some kind of crashproofing material to encase the packs in, without compromising cooling?

We have foam 'crash blankets' for some receivers. Why can't the same or similar idea be used for LiPos?

Sounds like a market niche that someone could make a lot of money from. Hmmm...

Rick

[AggieFlyer]

Why GS electrics???

1. Feed my Ego...
2. Adrenaline Rush...
3. Chicks really dig it, but doesn't distrub the neighbors.
4. Al Gore approved. :D

[Fokker Ace]

Why giant scale? Why have a green weed-free lawn? Why drive a Corvette? Why own a Harley? Why marry a pretty woman? Because we want to, that's why. Why question why? This was my biggest project. One day I hope to do a giant electric plane (the Sr Telemaster didn't count...I want an AgCat or Pilatus Porter).

Throttle down there, hot-rod. My question was about if they fly better or are easier to work with. It wasn't a moral question. I don't care if someone needs big and or fast things to compensate for, uh, shortcomings! :D

Since this is about electrics, do you guys think the batteries are still a limiting factor? For a small parkflyer a $30 battery might allow you to fly for 20 minutes or more, this wasn't possible not too long ago. Are the big boy batteries becoming more affordable?

[Jeffery]

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.



There ya go.

Why does anybody build those little indoor birds?

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.

Why doesn anybody build those fast hotliners?

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.

Why does anybody build those foamy EDFs?

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.

Why does anybody build those scale parkflyers

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.

Why does anybody build those RC cars?

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.

Why does anybody build flying wings?

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.


Why is anybody in this hobby at all?

because I can, and because I want to.

I don't need to justify why to anyone but myself.

[Jeffery]

Since this is about electrics, do you guys think the batteries are still a limiting factor? For a small parkflyer a $30 battery might allow you to fly for 20 minutes or more, this wasn't possible not too long ago. Are the big boy batteries becoming more affordable?

No, if you find the batteries are out of your price range, there are plenty of other facets of the hobby you might look into.. Some people can afford them, even though they are out of your (or my) price range. There are a lot of things that I'd like to have but can't afford, doesn't make me jealous of those who can afford them.

[MiniBoy]

I plan on doing a giant scale plane this spring/summer. Not sure which yet. I already have an 80" cub but i dont know if that truly classifies as giant scale. Kinda feel like i'm cheating with that one since a cubs wingspan is so freaking huge.
Mike:

The forum criteria is somewhat similar to the IMAA .. 80 in. or more for mono-wing airplanes. So, like me with my 80" SIG Kadet Senior, you are at the smaller edge of the qualifying window .. but that's fine.

Those A123 cells are very interesting .. I am looking forward to their popularity increasing as time goes along.

Russ :)

[Fokker Ace]

No, if you find the batteries are out of your price range, there are plenty of other facets of the hobby you might look into.. Some people can afford them, even though they are out of your (or my) price range. There are a lot of things that I'd like to have but can't afford, doesn't make me jealous of those who can afford them.

Wow, people read too much into things. No, if I wanted a big plane I could easily go out and buy one so there's no envy or anything involved. It's not a question of can I have one, it's a question of do I want one.

It comes down to personal preference. I find I like long flight times and ease of use - grab a plane, chuck it in the air, and fly around my head for 20 minutes. But I also like the notion of a big Cub that flies very scale-like and is nearly silent because of electirc power. But I know I'd get to use it a lot less than the smaller ones.

[MiniBoy]

Since this is about electrics, do you guys think the batteries are still a limiting factor? For a small parkflyer a $30 battery might allow you to fly for 20 minutes or more, this wasn't possible not too long ago. Are the big boy batteries becoming more affordable?
In my opinion, the big battery packs, as well as big brushless motors and ESC's are really still being developed. What was big a couple of months ago has a bigger cousin today, and I think that will continue for quite some time .. maybe forever ?!?

Since the "Big Boy" batteries are really just more "Little Guy" packs daisy- chained into bigger, higher powered packs, the prices will only come down with the rest of the market.

I guess I'd say that the batteries are not a limiting factor for me at all .. I need 'em, so I buy 'em .. it's a frame of mind thing I guess. I have been the glow route, and wouldn't go back to that mess if it were the only power available .. it is really fun to come home from flying and say "Honey, I'm home" and plunk the airplane on the dining room table .. and not get thrown out of the house !!

Just my viewpoint ..

Russ

[Coastwatcher]

Hi,

As I understand it or going by the forum "GIANT" rules ...........then my as yet unbuilt Hanger 9 Sopwith qualifies to be built here?

[StrangeGager]

Guys, please be careful when discussing the cost of giant scale conversions. If you're lucky, all the fellas with large amounts of disposable income will be here telling you how they can spend their money any way they want and it's only foolish if you can't afford it, blah, blah, blah...

[mcharles13]

Why GS electrics???

1. Feed my Ego...
2. Adrenaline Rush...
3. Chicks really dig it, but doesn't distrub the neighbors.
4. Al Gore approved. :D

LOL i'm hoping the hoards of chicks in the background didnt just come out of those schoolbuses.

I noticed your in Jefferson, MD how close is that to Beltsville? What club do you fly at?

[MiniBoy]

Wow, people read too much into things. No, if I wanted a big plane I could easily go out and buy one so there's no envy or anything involved. It's not a question of can I have one, it's a question of do I want one.

It comes down to personal preference. I find I like long flight times and ease of use - grab a plane, chuck it in the air, and fly around my head for 20 minutes. But I also like the notion of a big Cub that flies very scale-like and is nearly silent because of electirc power. But I know I'd get to use it a lot less than the smaller ones.
Hi Ace:

I was fiddling with MotoCalc this morning, and my 80 in. Kadet senior with 40 in. fiberglas floats, camera and video downlink at around 10 lbs was coming in at 54 minutes, 75% throttle, 29 MPH, with a single 5S3P LiPo pack and an AXI 4120-18.

Whoa now .. that's what MotoCalc said, and I am trying to get verification from Greg McNair, Herm Perez and ZB Hubachek who all have experience with electrocuted Kadet Seniors, to see if MotoCalc is somewhere in the ballpark ??

Almost sounds like something you would enjoy ?!?! ...

Russ :)

[Jeffery]

Guys, please be careful when discussing the cost of giant scale conversions. If you're lucky, all the fellas with large amounts of disposable income will be here telling you how they can spend their money any way they want and it's only foolish if you can't afford it, blah, blah, blah...

Followed closely by all the guys who are offended that somebody would spend their money however they want to on whatever they want to. It seems to be a hobby in itself for some guys to constantly pop into threads and proclaim with righteous indignation that the plane/motor/battery is too expensive. I predict this forum will become a popular hangout for them to pop in and project their indignation.

[Jeffery]

Wow, people read too much into things. No, if I wanted a big plane I could easily go out and buy one so there's no envy or anything involved. It's not a question of can I have one, it's a question of do I want one.

It comes down to personal preference. I find I like long flight times and ease of use - grab a plane, chuck it in the air, and fly around my head for 20 minutes. But I also like the notion of a big Cub that flies very scale-like and is nearly silent because of electirc power. But I know I'd get to use it a lot less than the smaller ones.

Sorry if I read too much into your post. There are a number of posters here who cannot understand why anybody would want to spend more on a project than they themselves can justify. They evidently take great delight in pointing this out as often as possible.

[tone]

Hey MiniBoy -
a buddy flies a Kadet Sr. with an AXI 4130-16 on 6S 4200 swinging an 18x8 APC
it is superb. He flies it like a parkflyer for a bit, then takes it up, up, up and floats for 15 minutes or so then does more aerobatics...
In fact, I am gathering the stuff to do the same plane the same way.
The only thing he can't do with it is sustained hovering. Around 10 pounds.
It will hover, but he can't climb out, he has to nose over level and fly away.
Floats and lands so slowly.. What a pleasure to see.
I had considered the 4120, but after a couple seasons watching his on the 4130, i am sold.

[AggieFlyer]

LOL i'm hoping the hoards of chicks in the background didnt just come out of those schoolbuses.

I noticed your in Jefferson, MD how close is that to Beltsville? What club do you fly at?

Jefferson is about 50mi NW of Beltsville. Currently, I not an 'officially' member of any particular club at this time, as I mainly fly (with permission) over my neighbors 70+ acre farm.) I've visited and flown at several of the local clubs near me (DCRC, CASA, Loudoun Co club, and the Frederick club) but I haven't decided where I would fit in the best. They all have their pluses/minuses...

[eflightray]

Expensive? Any hobby is as expensive as you want to make it, it's your choice.

Me?, I'm a cheapskate.

O/D 93" B25 Mitchell, two 12v Speed motors, (brushed), two 7 cell nimh packs.

88" Majestic Major, Axi 2820/10, then a Magnetic Mayhem, now a Tower Pro 2915, all used two 7 cell nimh, (Parallel).

135" The Hump flying wing, Magnetic Mayhem, 7 cell nimh pack.

O/D 100" B17 Flying Fortress, four 7.2v Speed motors, (brushed), and once again two 7 cell nimh packs, (this model is still under construction).

It's all about how much effort you are willing, (or not willing) to put in to your models. Most things can be done on the cheap, or you can spend as much as you like. It's your hobby.

Now for my type of model with limited performance, (I don't need to do verticals or aerobatics), low cost is quite feasable.

But if some one wants masses of power and a big model it obviously costs.

[MiniBoy]

Hey MiniBoy -
a buddy flies a Kadet Sr. with an AXI 4130-16 on 6S 4200 swinging an 18x8 APC
it is superb. He flies it like a parkflyer for a bit, then takes it up, up, up and floats for 15 minutes or so then does more aerobatics...
In fact, I am gathering the stuff to do the same plane the same way.
The only thing he can't do with it is sustained hovering. Around 10 pounds.
It will hover, but he can't climb out, he has to nose over level and fly away.
Floats and lands so slowly.. What a pleasure to see.
I had considered the 4120, but after a couple seasons watching his on the 4130, i am sold.
Hi Tone:

Thanks for the reply .. the dilemma I have is that I am trying to get the best bang for the buck from my LiPo's .. The Heli's use 5S3P X 2 each and I'm trying to squeeze hopefully acceptable performance out of the Kadet with a single 5S3P, rather than have to get another 6S3P pack and a spare or two .. that's where the 4120 comes from .. with 6S, I, too, would choose 4130 ....

Decisions, decisions .....

Russ

[StrangeGager]

Followed closely by all the guys who are offended that somebody would spend their money however they want to on whatever they want to. It seems to be a hobby in itself for some guys to constantly pop into threads and proclaim with righteous indignation that the plane/motor/battery is too expensive. I predict this forum will become a popular hangout for them to pop in and project their indignation.

Yeah, these guys are really somethin aren't they Chuck ;) .

Like I said. Blah, Blah, Blah...

[Jeffery]

Yeah, these guys are really somethin aren't they Chuck ;) .

Like I said. Blah, Blah, Blah...

Yes, but rest assured I will consult with them before making any future purchases so to be certain I don't offend them with my spending habits.

Oh, wait... No I won't. I forgot there for a minute that it's really none of their business what I buy or what it costs. Of course I don't expect that to deter them. Blah, Blah, Blah.

(And for the record, I have no giant scale electric planes, or even high dollar glow planes or giant scale gas planes. I do, however, have enough respect for those who do to not hijack their threads with what I think they should spend on a plane. Obviously, your mileage does vary).

[cooper998]

Miniboy,
I would recheck those numbers, I just ran some similar numbers using TP2100 lipos. Duration at optimal is taking into consideration the plane is flying straight and level with no wind and does not take into account takeoff power and maneuvering power. If you check the Run Time you should see about 11.5 minutes which is the number you should be using for estimation. Also remember Motocalc does not calculate for floats which will cause the plane to use a bit more power so your average flight times will be even less.
As with Motocalc and other "estimators" available they should only be used as a baseline to help determine actual performance.

cooper998

[MiniBoy]

Miniboy,
I would recheck those numbers, I just ran some similar numbers using TP2100 lipos. Duration at optimal is taking into consideration the plane is flying straight and level with no wind and does not take into account takeoff power and maneuvering power. If you check the Run Time you should see about 11.5 minutes which is the number you should be using for estimation. Also remember Motocalc does not calculate for floats which will cause the plane to use a bit more power so your average flight times will be even less.
As with Motocalc and other "estimators" available they should only be used as a baseline to help determine actual performance.

cooper998
Hi Cooper:

Thanks for the reply ... And your advice.

I must admit that I have recently upgraded my MotoCalc program from a trial to a paid version ( 8.6 I think ) and I am not familiarized with all parameters, and I am being up-front in admitting such. I did , however use Tanic 2500 MaH cells in 5S3P configuration, as well as "forced" the airframe to be heavier than normal to account for the floats and AP gear, with a final AUW in the MotoCalc program of 159 oz.. What is a mystery is the additional frontal area / drag of the floats as well as the 9 sq. in camera area that will surely change the overall picture to some degree ( significant degree ) ?!?

I am pretty convinced that what I'm trying to do is going to require 6S3P, and I have plenty of room to add another 1S3P pack in series in the Kadet airframe, but I think that is a bogus scheme?!?

So, I'm open to all suggestions, and I don't like to cheat .. I like to do it right the first time ..

Thanks again for your interest,

Russ

EDIT: I ( we ) are also kind of off topic here, so I will start a new thread on the Sig Kadet Electrocution soon ...

Russ :)

[Mr. Wiz]

Wind. I get really, really tired of beautiful days going to waste because of wind. Big planes, no problem w/ wind.

Try a Stryker. I fly them in near storm conditions.

[cyclops2]

Can't measure or read. Off to a shakey start.

Hope it gets better. And I am not a giant person.

If any body can remove the excessive cost of big electrics so a complete .90 or 1.20 power system comes close to a fuel setup, POST IT.


I would gladly send you a resturant gift certificate.

Cyclops

EDIT....... changed gasoline to fuel to keep the thought correct.

[StrangeGager]

Yes, but rest assured I will consult with them before making any future purchases so to be certain I don't offend them with my spending habits.

Oh, wait... No I won't. I forgot there for a minute that it's really none of their business what I buy or what it costs. Of course I don't expect that to deter them. Blah, Blah, Blah.

(And for the record, I have no giant scale electric planes, or even high dollar glow planes or giant scale gas planes. I do, however, have enough respect for those who do to not hijack their threads with what I think they should spend on a plane. Obviously, your mileage does vary).

Yeah and rest assured they'll be there to turn a civilized discussion into a rant fest. Blah, Blah, Blah.

Face it my friend, it's natural for one to inquire or wonder about cost.

[MiniBoy]

Can't measure or read. Off to a shakey start.

Hope it gets better. And I am not a giant person.

If any body can remove the excessive cost of big electrics so a complete .90 or 1.20 power system comes close to a fuel setup, POST IT.


I would gladly send you a resturant gift certificate.

Cyclops

EDIT....... changed gasoline to fuel to keep the thought correct.

OMG !!

Russ

[StrangeGager]

Can't measure or read. Off to a shakey start.

Hope it gets better. And I am not a giant person.

If any body can remove the excessive cost of big electrics so a complete .90 or 1.20 power system comes close to a fuel setup, POST IT.


I would gladly send you a resturant gift certificate.

Cyclops

EDIT....... changed gasoline to fuel to keep the thought correct.


Sick em Chuck!! GRRRR!!

[Jimbo45cn]

Remove the excessive cost? What is excessive to one person is trivial to another. Thought this hobby was supposed to be fun. What difference does it make what the cost is? What the H??

[surfimp]

I refuse to fly glow powered planes and the prospect of a gas powered plane isn't too appealing either. The leafblower sound effects of each are also a total non-starter for me.

Now, I normally fly sailplanes, so I'm probably off in the "wacko" end of the scale, but regardless, for me to fly power at all it's got to be electric. I have zero interest in an internal combustion solution.

That being what it is, electric costs what it costs. If you want to fly electric for whatever reason, you add up the costs, decide if they are tolerable, and you do it. End of story. The comparable cost of a glow or gas powered solution is of no moment if you are dead set on electric.

Steve,
who is finishing up an e-powered 80" Hangar 9 Cub :)

[cyclops2]

I like Jimbo45's logic on Giants. It makes sense.

[hermperez]

first you start with a dewalt a123 10cell pack from ebay, add a motor..

here is one, many other available:
https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3890

here is a speed control:
https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=3830

total = $105 + $65 + $90 = $260

a lot less than a comparable glow/gas engine.. if you want to add more duration then add another dewalt a123 pack for a total of $365, or maybe use the money to buy a charger.. btw, the lipos can be charged in 15-30 minutes.

120 four strokes range in power from 1200-2000 watts..

Herm


If any body can remove the excessive cost of big electrics so a complete .90 or 1.20 power system comes close to a fuel setup, POST IT.

Cyclops

EDIT....... changed gasoline to fuel to keep the thought correct.

[Greg McNair]

Who you callin' hot rod Fokker?

Russ, it's made by Martin Sollner in Austria. I sold it just after getting air under the skids to finance aerial photog equipment. And to be honest, I wasn't overwhelmed with the quality of the kit and components.

Wanna see that same heli in electric? Check out what 14s6p packs look like next to a 6lb brushless motor: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270443

Vario makes excellent stuff, as a matter of fact, I'm building 4 Benzins for a company right now. 3 have flown, #4 is waiting on a gyro and governor. My next scaler is a Bell 412, electric, and it's about 5' long. I'll have the fuse here next week. But it's not a plane, so I digress, I can't post piccies here. :)

Regarding the bigger batts and protection, some mfr's do a pretty good job of surrounding the cells with protection, but most do not. That's where our own ingenuity comes in to play. The bigger the airframe, the more room you have to cushion and protect the packs. Keep it simple, and pad with bubble wrap! Had I held onto this plane any longer, that's likely what I would have done. But alas, I sold it to a friend in San Antonio to get an even bigger airframe, and now I have 2 26' airships which will be electric. 26', yep, I'm compensating for something. Compensating for the fact my wife won't let me buy one of those street bikes, or a Corvette. :D

http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/1/9/5/2/6/a1015827-193-tele7.jpg

[MiniBoy]

Greg:

Thanks for the reply .. Those pix over at the RC Groups and HeliCrazy sites were pretty amazing !!

And, yes, All reports about Vario have been excellent .. I plan on SkyFox mechanics with Kohler Actro / Tanic power .. 1 will be a scaler, Long Ranger most likely .. another will be a camera ship with no fuse.

From your photo in your previous post, it appears you may also be a Tanic Pack believer ??

Thanks again for the excellent info,

Russ :)

[shaneyee]

Regarding the bigger batts and protection, some mfr's do a pretty good job of surrounding the cells with protection, but most do not. That's where our own ingenuity comes in to play. The bigger the airframe, the more room you have to cushion and protect the packs. Keep it simple, and pad with bubble wrap! http://static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/1/9/5/2/6/a1015827-193-tele7.jpg

That's an example of one of the reasons I like to build big other than the fact that it gratifies my ego.... you can use common materials like lumberyard wood for spars, 1/8" cabinet plywood instead of 1/16" aircraft ply... I even found working scale looking gas struts for shock absorbing landing gear for my 100" wingspan Pilatus Porter.

I am planning to use some mahogany veneer for sheeting over a D bix leading edge just for that classy look... couldn't do that if I were weight conscious.

Shane

[Greg McNair]

Russ, Tanics are excellent, and Brian puts the service in customer service. And the Vario LR is a gorgeous bird. You'll enjoy it.

Shane, do you have any pics posted of your Porter? That's my fav fixed wing.

[8kasl]

MiniBoy,How about a "Wide Body Super Kadet"
86" span
Fuse increased to 9"x9"
Ail.+ flaps
AXI 4130/20,Apce 22x14 on 5s
Camera:2lb. Sony Hi8 behind windshield in cabin
This was a Sig Kadet Senior that was purpose built to cary the Sony camera I had at the time.I've since bought 2 Digi video cameras that weigh 4-6 oz.,but the quality of the old Hi8 is much better and the extra 2 Lbs doesn't seem to bother the plane much and I fly in the front yard(8ac.)on my own runway at 8000'ASL!

[MiniBoy]

Russ, Tanics are excellent, and Brian puts the service in customer service. And the Vario LR is a gorgeous bird. You'll enjoy it.

Hi Greg:

Thanks to these terriffic forums, and folks like you, I'm getting getting great information and "steered" in the right direction ...

Thanks again for the info,

Russ

[eflightray]

I keep seeing the question of cost raised for a big electric. Ok, if you have to buy everything including a ready built model it might come out about pricey.

But if your willing to cut some corners by using low cost items, low cost materials, low cost brushed motors, low cost gearboxes or belt drives, low cost batteries, and willing to make a lot of the model yourself, then the cost isn't so high.

If you want to fly a 'giant' electric, do it. Just tailor the model to what you want to spend. But if you want to fly a 'giant' electric scale model with all the bells and whistles, or an IMAC type competition aerobatic model, then again you have to spend what is necessary, or fly something else.

Cost isn't the problem, mind-set is usually the first stumbling block. Too many flyers must have brushless and lipo's and RTF's and then complain about the high cost.

Me I'd like Bentley Continental GTC, but I'm quite happy to drive a Honda Jazz.

If I want a large model plane, I build one.

[MiniBoy]

MiniBoy,How about a "Wide Body Super Kadet"
86" span
Fuse increased to 9"x9"
Ail.+ flaps
AXI 4130/20,Apce 22x14 on 5s
Camera:2lb. Sony Hi8 behind windshield in cabin
This was a Sig Kadet Senior that was purpose built to cary the Sony camera I had at the time.I've since bought 2 Digi video cameras that weigh 4-6 oz.,but the quality of the old Hi8 is much better and the extra 2 Lbs doesn't seem to bother the plane much and I fly in the front yard(8ac.)on my own runway at 8000'ASL!
Very intersting information !!! .....

A few Questions:

(1) Did you remove the windshield, or shoot through it ?

(2) What is your AUW ?

(3) What are you getting for flight time ?

I am hoping to use 5S3P rather than 6S, as this is what my heli's will use, and it would be nice to not have to fiddle around with two of these and four of them, etc., especially at $289.00 a pop ...

http://www.tanicpacks.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=78&products_id=588

The heli's will run 10S3P, while I could run 5S6P in the Kadet if need be. It sounds to me that that if the AXI 4120 ( OOppsss its a 4130 .. misread that ) and 5S works for you, it should be O.K. for me I'll put that in MotoCalc and see what I come up with .. I'm getting excited ... LOL ... !!!

(Us damned kidz !! )

Thanks for the help;

Russ :)

[MiniBoy]

Try a Stryker. I fly them in near storm conditions.
Hi Mr. Wiz:

We have some pretty windy weather here in New England ..

How much wind can those Stryker's reasonably handle ?

What are you running for a power system ?

What, roughly, is your AUW ?

Thanks in advance for your input,

Russ :)

[hermperez]

Miniboy, I just saw your PM.. sorry for the long delay. I have lots and lots of experience with E Kadet Seniors, been flying them since 90 or so. Powered them from 400 to 1000 watts in all sort of configurations. Usually a Senior will weigh about 6.5-7lbs using 18-24 nicad cells, an astro 40 and standard radio equipment with a receiver battery... but I have seen them as heavy as 10lbs AUW after people "beef them up" with sheeting, tricycle gears and lots of other reinforcements.

Working backwards: 12oz motor weight, 9.5oz radio, 32oz power battery, 2oz esc will end up in a 104oz plane or the standard airframe will be 49oz when covered in a monokote type covering.. from this you can work out your final weight.

Weight has little to do with duration, mostly drag and flying speed will affect that, windy conditions will strongly affect it. Standard duration at moderate speeds (not crawling around and not full throttle all the time) is around 7 minutes per 1000mah in a 24v system. I would expect about 7 minutes using 1650 mah from a 5s A123 pack, about 28 minutes from the 5s3p you are proposing. I could get about 25 minutes using an 1800mah 24 cell nicad pack by flying at minimum power in no wind conditions.. just crawling along in the air.

How much power do you need?.. as I said, have flown them with all kinds of power setups.. they all pretty much fly the same speed, climb rate is what goes up. I would suggest about the power of a 60 2strk, about 700 watts or so with a large prop. In this age of lipos I would not worry too much about it, no matter what you do it will work out :)

[MiniBoy]

Miniboy, I just saw your PM.. sorry for the long delay. I have lots and lots of experience with E Kadet Seniors, been flying them since 90 or so.
Herm:

No sweat .. I've missed P.M.'s too .. there should be a blinking light or a waving flag to get one's attention !

Thanks for the reply .. your bare frame and all up weights as well as your experience with various battery pack sizes is just the kind of info I needed .. much appreciated.

Will keep you posted on the progress,

Russ :)

[cyclops2]

I have used the cabinet makers veneers for years. They will usually give you any odd pieces left from jobs for a thankyou. Stuff is very good as as full depth main wing spars. I make 1 or 2 slits with a straight edge and a hacksaw blade in blue foam. Use a very fine tooth blade to keep the slot the right width. It is impossible to break the wing in any possible HI-G pull out.
It is easy to soak the 1/64" stuff in HOT water, press it on a round object to make wheel cover doors that take landing rash in weeds.

[shaneyee]

Shane, do you have any pics posted of your Porter? That's my fav fixed wing.

No, I just started it and the fuselage is halfway done... I'll take some pictures of the fuselage frame and post it in the next couple of days.

Shane

[shaneyee]

I have used the cabinet makers veneers for years. They will usually give you any odd pieces left from jobs for a thankyou. Stuff is very good as as full depth main wing spars. I make 1 or 2 slits with a straight edge and a hacksaw blade in blue foam. Use a very fine tooth blade to keep the slot the right width. It is impossible to break the wing in any possible HI-G pull out.
It is easy to soak the 1/64" stuff in HOT water, press it on a round object to make wheel cover doors that take landing rash in weeds.

Yes, so far I have been using veneer for reinforcement similiar to what you are doing. I am moving on to sheeting wings soon.

I am going to try it first on a small blue foam wing to get a feel for how it works around curves. I want to build a conventional balsa/spruce D box, sheet with 1/16" balsa and then sheet over the balsa with mahogany veneer. I am unsure how to hold it down since the usual pins and weights may not work with the thin and floppy veneer. Vacuum bagging wont work over ribs so I'll have find a way around that.

Shane

[Mr. Wiz]

Hi Mr. Wiz:

We have some pretty windy weather here in New England ..

How much wind can those Stryker's reasonably handle ?

What are you running for a power system ?

What, roughly, is your AUW ?

Thanks in advance for your input,

Russ :)

It's not giant scale, so I'll limit my response to this.

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=PKZ4200

[cyclops2]

www.certainlywood.com has a complete selection of commericial veneers used by kitchen cabinet makers. For a 1 or 2 piece order ask the cabinet guy to buy it for you. Offer Coffee and Dougnuts as a bribe. He can also tell you which specie is great for leading edge curves or as the bottom skin. You can use a softy for leading edges with the HOT water soak and splice a hard 4" strip into the bottom skin by butt splicing with veneer scraps between ribs.

Think about it. For a 10' W S... U-2 or sailplane. They sell LONG, WIDE pieces.

Read the whole site before ordering or going to a cabinet guy. He will help you if you have a knowledge of veneers.

WARNING!!!!!! the pieces come rolled up and taped in a circle. They will SPLIT DOWN THE GRAIN if you get careless. Ask the cabint guy to unroll it for you so you learn the right way to do it.

They can be used on any straight surfaces with any glue.

Enjoy.

EDIT>>>>>>> Ask the guy what woods DO NOT LIKE TO BE GLUED DUE TO ACIDS & OILS IN THEM.

[shaneyee]

This is my own design Pilatus Porter.... it has working gas strut shock absorbing landing gear .... I have t shirt that says " Hardlander"....

http://home.pacific.net.sg/~shaneyee/Image007.jpg

[cyclops2]

You can make your own plywood from scraps and any glue. No weak spots for landing gears or fire walls. I use THIN coats of Epoxy. Patience and Carpenters Glue with weights also works.

My typing finger is fading.

Enjoy.

[cyclops2]

Looking good !

[shaneyee]

Another reason to build big is to use surplus action figures that my kids have outgrown! This is one of them in a Baby Bowlus.... 1/6 scale about 120" wingspan...fuselage pod is strip planked balsa with mahogany coloured varnish.

http://home.pacific.net.sg/~shaneyee/Image006.jpg

[cyclops2]

Right.
I have 16 Startrek as USN figures on the 8' WW II PTB and 8 other 1/10 scale figures as Austrailian Comandos in cameo, leaning against the torpedo racks.

[Greg McNair]

Thanks for posting Shane, I look forward to seeing the beauty flying!

[JWilliams2]

I think it's just darn cool. For me, though, they spend more on a motor than I will spend in a year. I don't have the spare money and time that some older folks do--and large planes require definitely a lot of money! I cannot imagine going above parkflyer any time soon.

[berryulson]

So far the largest planes I've flown are the new .30E class but whenever I go to my lhs I fly the 33% Edge on the FS One sim. What appeals to me is how floaty it feels AND still retains a lot of energy. There are definitely giants in my future.

[airbearma]

I love my Giants both gas and electric. Since large brushless electric motors and A123 Dewalt packs made large Eflight affordable, all my new giants are electric.

I will have a 170" twin engine Vickers Vimy powered by Axi 5345's, CCHV-110's, and 6-Dewalt A123 packs done within the next couple of months.

I use A123's in all my large planes and Helis.

[kelberts]

MOST big birds run on gasoline rather than glow. The current price of $2.50/gallon converts to $.12 per flight.

But, more reasonably, the big birds use 16 oz. or so to fuel their planes. That converts to $.31 per flight. Quite a bargain, actually. And, I can refuel, and be in the air in minutes. No waiting for the batteries to recharge.

You could buy a second battery pack, but then your overall costs just doubled.

Yeah, but you still have all that LIQUID all over the place -

[Jimbo45cn]

A 123s can be recharged in 20 minutes, are durable and don't vent. So if you have two packs you can fly and charge pretty much all day. The gas vs electric cost thing has been beat to death. Fly what you want. Jim

[Thomas B]

[QUOTE=JWilliams2]I think it's just darn cool. For me, though, they spend more on a motor than I will spend in a year. I don't have the spare money and time that some older folks do--and large planes require definitely a lot of money! I cannot imagine going above parkflyer any time soon.[/QUOTE

My motor was fairly inexpensive.

My 1.60 glow class electric motor cost about $147. My 90 AMP esc cost $159. Batteries do raise the cost a little, as well, but still affordable for most.

[SD_Raptor]

I started flying just 15 months ago - electric all the way. Started small and am now flying a 74 inch Yak-54 and considering the next step up to giant scale - something in the range of 85-102 inch. I am doing to stay electric because:

1. The electric-only field where I fly (SEFSD in San Diego) has a better and more scenic site than any of the local fueled plane fields.

2. The giant scale electrics I have seen at our field seem more graceful and fly just as well or better compared to their non-electric equivalents.

3. I like the technology.

4. Newer LiPos can be charged at 2C so a typical recharge cycle is 30-40 minutes. With two sets of batteries I can fly twice an hour for 8-10 minutes per flight - more than enough when doing aerobatic practice.

5. For IMAC style flying, in no wind or windy conditions, the big planes really do fly better, present better, and are more forgiving of their pilots mistakes.

6. As more of us go electric, particularly for the larger planes, competition will drive down the cost of batteries, motors, and speed controllers. Look at the cost of LiPos, brushless motors, and ESCs three years back, compared to today. The cost of the power system for a scale plane has dropped almost 50% in that time.

7. I can test the plane at home without waking the neighbors.

8. I don't spend time at the field pumping gas or nitro into and/or out of my plane.

9. No annoying aromas in the garage (except the lingering odor of a totally cooked 90 Amp ESC).

But whether you burn electrons or hydrocarbons - it all fun!

Randy

[Coastwatcher]

Well said Randy !!!.......Brother ....I'm also just in my 15 month of RC and all electric too.

Funny I started flying about year ago at parks with a PZ P-51 Mustang foamie ......Now I'm building the Giant H9-150 size P-51 ...... :D

My - My how time changes :)

Ps ...wouldn't this scare the pants off the ol ladies at the local park ????

[zeuglodon]

So far the only thing preventing me from building a BIG electric is the cost of the batteries. I'm certainly not afraid to throw gobs of money at the hobby - but there has to be at least a pretense of sanity. I like high performance planes and I can't see, at this point, spending more on the battery than the whole rest of the plane.

[tIANcI]

I love little engines and all, love my YS but I have to say that EP has taken over my sense of logic. For me moving into big EP is because it can be done. Like many have said, prices are plumetting and planes do last longer too. The wow factor is superb ... at my field 95% fly glow and EP is usually 400 sized brushless planes. When a 90 sized EP goes up and does a nice KE across the field, everyone will realise, that is MORE than a toy.

I always tease guys who have engine tuning problems ... I tell them EP makes sense ... Plug N Play!!!

Thomas B - a 1.60 class motor costs only USD60 from factory and a 90A HV ESC only USD95 ... we are not talking El Cheapo stuff, its the same OEM for branded names.

[Thomas B]

I
Thomas B - a 1.60 class motor costs only USD60 from factory and a 90A HV ESC only USD95 ... we are not talking El Cheapo stuff, its the same OEM for branded names.

I know that they can be had cheaper over there....I wanted to deal with a guy I know and trust, 2dogrc and not wait or pay for international shipping.

[MiniBoy]

So far the only thing preventing me from building a BIG electric is the cost of the batteries. I'm certainly not afraid to throw gobs of money at the hobby - but there has to be at least a pretense of sanity. I like high performance planes and I can't see, at this point, spending more on the battery than the whole rest of the plane.
This is a matter of mind set .. if you have an airplane flying on 3S, you most likely have 2-3S packs .. put them in series and you have a "big" pack. Moreover, if you really put your mind to it you can manage some pretty amazing battery arrangements in series and parallel, so that you minimize the number of packs you need to have / charge . All this will come to pass as the electric power game matures .. but there is no doubt it will be the future of RC flight, with all the moaning from the noise sensitive folk.

There was also some chat a few posts back about a $650.00 battery pack .. if that pack can survive 500 flights, that's $1.30 per flight .. or less than 1/2 gallon of gasoline, or 8 oz. of glow fuel .. that's not particularly unreasonable ?! And, 500 flights on a giant scale glow ship is about 125 rolls of Bounty paper towels at $.90 a roll or over $100.00, not to mention the windex ?!!? ... LOL !!

Just my thoughts,

Russ :)

[Boomerang1]

Ahhhh, that dirty 5 letter word - money! If it costs $.02 per flight less it has to be better & all else is rubbish. So what! I fly big & small, glow, electric & turbine & I say if you want to fly it and can afford it then do it!

The only reason I can think of for not buying the '$650.00 battery pack' is that next weeks $650 pack will be lighter/more capacity/more durable, and this weeks $650 pack will be $450 next week as something better is available. But the bottom line is, if you want to fly something you have to put your hand in your pocket.

To explain Fokker Ace's original question - Why do people fly giant scale? Has anyone explained to him (he's a noob) that for most of us the hobby is like a drug & you need a bigger & bigger hit to be satisfied? - John.

[Greg McNair]

Has anyone explained to him (he's a noob) that for most of us the hobby is like a drug & you need a bigger & bigger hit to be satisfied? - John.

That would require putting down my Lipo pipe, and I'm too busy smokin' it to take the time to 'splain. Don't make me go jonsin'. :)