The ULTIMATE UAV project!!!

[tomfoolery726]

Hello all, I'm new to this forum and I have very limited experience in RC and UAVs and I wanted some guidance.

For a while I've wanted to work on a project for the development of cheap UAVs that could deliver a payload of 1-3 lbs a distance 200 to 500 miles.

I've heard that a group had made a UAV that travelled 1800 miles across the atlanic ocean in 2003, and they had some restrictions in regards to weight, so it would qualify as an RC plane.

I don't have any such restrictions. I just want a plane that is cheap and reliable.

My goal is to make a disposable UAV that is capable of delivering messages, radios and medicines to civilians in times of conflict.

I assure you my interests aren't commercial and is purely humanitarian. If you have any questions about the applications for this project feel free to email me (contact@project-titan.org)! I can also explain to you how I plan on getting some government funding for this project and what non-profits I plan on collaborating with.

So anyway, I'm basically looking for some subject matter experts that can answer some logistic questions,

such as:

How plausible is it to deliver a 3 lb package a distance 500 miles?
How much would such a plane cost if the planes were made with cheap parts (weedwacker engine, milk carton fuel tank, etc)?
How much would the guidance system cost? (GPS, gyroscopes, altimeter, Autopilot chip)
Who are the main manufacturers in RC autopilot systems? Would they see value in sponsoring a project like this?
My current train of thought would be that a pilot would have to manually launch the UAV for take off and when reaching an acceptable direction and altitude, would switch on the autopilot, at which time the plane would take its delivery course. Are there alternate possibilities? Would you be able to remote pilot the plane from a distance of 500 miles away without any sort of cellular phone reception? I guess this would have to be done through satellite and would compromise the low cost of this project unreasonably.


If you'd like to do some pro-bono consulting please email me (contact@project-titan.org), as this project is in the early stages I'm going to need tons of help.

Thanks!

[Ailuropoda]

Early... Looks like you're somewhere before being ready to defining the requirements.
What are times of conflict? Have the people you intend to help already been found? Are they moving? When will the system be used? What is the minimum useful payload?
I'm sitting here thinking, I'm in a life raft, something has probably already sent a message saying my ship is going down or whatever. My position is constantly changing, plus the payload needs to be delivered far enough from me that it can't hurt me or damage my raft, yet at the same time, it needs to be close enough that I can get to it without it drifting away. I could be in a diminished physical capacity. Granted, the ease at which I can propell a lifeboat is really someone else's design issue. What do I need to ensure that I'll survive long enough to be rescued? Probably a radio, flare, food and water. Granted I'm probably an idiot for having brought a life raft with me without preparing emergency equipment for it. Let's say my vessel went down so quickly that I barely had time to set off the emergency beacon and couldn't get to the life raft before it all sank. 3lbs definately won't cut it if I need a life raft. After poking around a bit, I came across this http://www.airbornesystems-na.com/skad.html They have a roughly 100lbs kit.
Suppose I tried driving through Colorado this winter and ran into all the snow that caught some people. I make a cell phone call for help. You deploy your aircraft to assist me till I can be rescued. Most people don't carry a survival pack in their car. Let's say that I'm not traveling alone, I'm in a group of three. What are you going to send me? Food, maybe water, I'd hate to be delivered an ice block, some of those reflective emergency blankets, a shovel and a piece of paper with some survival tips. I don't recall what the response times where, but lets suppose you need to get three people through 24 hours. It's a short enough time span that everyone will survive, provided the purpose of the trip wasn't to rush to the hospital. How much payload do you need to deliver to make a meaningful contribution?

[macboffin]

Following comments enlightened by a lifetime career in design, construction and operation of UAVs small and large,all over the world.
500 miles is a fairly serious distance, hence duration. At some point on such a trip you might well have to go to serious altitude for terrain clearance, which has implications for fuel and engine type, as well as wing loading.(Thinner air at altitude means less power,and also requires mixture control).
Your route might be in conflict with other air traffic; especially in the terminal area which is likely to be busy in a conflict or disaster situation. Not least of all this, how do you locate the addressee in order to deliver; and advise them of your ETA? As to reliance on GPS for nav, this might not be available in a conflict area due to jamming or military modification. There are several other issues ; I have been involved in this general area since the military have an interest in the delivery of small urgent packages in the field, and have invested a few bucks in research in the area. Mucho problema!

[tomfoolery726]

Yes, this is in the earliest stages and we need to define requirements.

I might as well go into the different applications I envision this UAV for, because the context will probably be able to help you assess the requirements better.

Although it could certainly be used to send supplies to people stranded at sea and in the mountains, I was thinking more along the lines of delivering leaflets and radios to people in times of chaos. Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans is a prime example, where you can combat widespread panic by sending them instructions and wireless radios. This could be used in a variety of emergencies, like floods and earthquakes, where the communication lines have been cut and you need to disseminate information to a confused populace.

When it gets more refined, it could be used for delivering medical supplies in a pinch- anything from extra blood, medicine, to remote areas that aren't equipped for regular aircraft visits. It can basically serve as an urgent delivery system for various purposes.

And if it was capable of it, it would be indispensible in sending food and supplies to people stranded in the mountains or at sea. I am imagining that along with providing sustenance, it could also send communication devices. The plus side to using a UAV in a search and rescure operation is resources. Instead of sending out a single rescue chopper to do a sweep of a region, you could send out 20 of these drones to drop flares and communication devices throughout the region, and only have to pay for the little amount of gas these little drones will eat up (well, plus the price of the communication devices).

The reason I had listed such a light payload is because I wanted to minimize the size and fuel consumption. But I think you're right in that 3 lbs may be too small, so let's up the requirement to 10 to 20 lbs.

Also, I wanted to make the plane itself cheap- because it is all practicality and no aesthetics, but it would also be nice to have a U-turn function so that it can return home after it delivers it's payload, so we'd be able to keep reusing them. I imagine this wouldn't be too hard to implement, since all the basic steering and guidance framework is already there.

Macboffin- thanks for pointing this out. I realize that 500 miles is quite a lengthy requirement and will mean interstate/international border crossing, but the reason I want such a distance is: a) For the return flight home. An objective 200 miles away will need 400 miles of fuel. b) Simply creating a large upper bound so as to overestimate complications; If an expert said he could design a UAV to travel 500 miles, then I'm sure it would be able to make a 100 mile voyage, no problem. Of course I wouldn't imagine testing this to such ridiculous lengths without permits and authorization. I'm sure Denver International Airport and the Airforce Academy would be delighted with my unannounced flybys. :) But in answer to your question about the addressee, my aims are to drop supplies and leaflets, and have the aircraft return home.

Thank you both for your replies!

[RCAV8R13]

Forget doing this in the US. The FAA won't let you, or anyone else, operate without a COA. The problem is, when you go to get a COA they say no, we don't have regulations for UAVs. Catch 22.
RCA

[vespa]

If you reduce your range requirements to 20 miles, you can probably do this in about 5 years for less than $10M. And if you use a milk carton for the fuel tank, the cost may be as low as $9,999,972.00

Beyond 20 miles, you're looking at $20M per airframe (not quite disposable) and maybe $500M and 10 years for development. Again, you could save some money on the fuel tank, but if you've come this far, you might as well go all out.

Remember, only the government is allowed to operate UAVs beyond line of sight, and even the military cannot get FAA clearance to fly more than a few miles. You may want to consider just carrying the emergency supplies in a backpack and handing them out in person.

[dalbert02]

Just things to think about:
Collision Avoidance
Terrain Avoidance
stabilization in x,y,z axi
payload deployment at specific GPS coordinate(s) i.e. target acquisition
autopilot / waypoint processing
weather proofing airframe, navigation, propulsion systems
C4I Command Control Communication Computation & Intellegence
.
.
.
This list could go on almost forever. I'd highly advise you join AUVSI and learn what machines are out there, what they can do, and how complex they must be to meet mission requirements. It really is not as easy as you may think. Milk cartons can not be expected to be durable and relied on to deliver life saving equipment. If the payloads are not life saving, then how important is the mission? I think you may want to reconsider your requirements analysis.
-dave

[macboffin]

I guess milk cartons might be suitable for certain vegetable matter or powdered materials. (oops!)

[workshop]

Naw Mac, he just wants to drop spliflettes!... :D

Sorry... couldn't resist... :p Jeff

[tomfoolery726]

Thanks for all your responses.

RCAV8R13: For now we don't need to worry about the legality. For testing we have several hundred of acres available in CO and we won't have to lose line of sight to test it.

vespa: I'm not sure why you think the costs will be so exorbitant. Don't autopilot chips exist as well as RC planes that are equipped for long distance flying? I'm pretty sure that the components I want are fully available. What makes this project so different than others? Doesn't flying a long distance just mean more fuel and therefore heavier weight considerations? Regarding legality, I think this could be used in line of sight cases, and I think there would be plenty of applications for this outside the US.

dalbert02: Thanks for the reference to http://www.auvsi.org/. Aren't all of the issues you listed already taken care of by existing autopilot chips? Protection against collision, terrain, and weather would just be circumvented by proper pre-flight programming and planning.

I think everyone took my milk carton fuel tank too literally. By it I just meant that practicality in cost takes priority over aesthetics. And it may be completely foolish, but I still see no difference in an RC fuel tank and a milk carton.

But I was still wondering:
What kind of planes are best equipped for travelling distance 500 miles carrying a 10 lb payload? Can anyone link me to the airframe? Which are the cheapest models that could be used for this purpose?
What kind of engine would I need? I'm assuming it would be a gas plane (as opposed to glow fuel). How big would it have to be? Can you outfit a weedwacker engine for it?
How much would the guidance system cost? I've seen RC autopilots for 5 000 USD. Are these capable of doing what I need?
Who are the main manufacturers in RC autopilot systems?

I've noticed that a lot of topics on this forum are actually listing similar requirements to what I'm looking for. I might repost my questions after I read some more and have a better understanding of what the machines are capable of.

I also saw this on another thread, and I thought it was helpful.

1/ first the budget- As cheap as possible, but I imagine $5000-$6000 is a reasonable prototype. I'm hoping that I can get a discount in bulk.
2/ second the country- USA, but for now please humor me and assume that all the legal things are taken care of.
3/ the model making experience- None. But I can hire a local professional/hobbyist.
4/ the electronic making experience- None. But I can hire a local professional/hobbyist.
5/ the desired size of craft- As small as possible but I think a 1-2 meter wingspan would be ideal (depending on the payload- maybe a 1m for a 3lb payload, 2m for a 20lb).

I'm actually writing a grant proposal and really want to know the costs of the components that would be suitable for this purpose, which is a long distance, preprogrammed payload drop, and return flight home. Take off and landing can be manual.

Thanks again!

[dalbert02]

Tom foolery
Meaning: Silly behaviour of no great wit.
Origin: Tom Fool was the generic name for jesters.

You could blow $6k on just the electronic parts.
http://www.u-nav.com/3400autopilot.html

Again, I urge you to do a lot more research if you want to be taken seriously.

Propulsion System (Fuel or battery)
Fuel System
Airframe System
Navigation System
Payload System
Electrical Power System
Telemetry System
Collision Avoidance System

All of these would need to work seemlesly together.

To get the range you want, you need altitude. At altitude, things get cold. Carbs ice up. Batteries freeze and stop working. Check out all the problems these guys had to overcome:
http://www.noskylimit.com/

-dave

[vespa]

Tom,

There are only 3 or 4 nations who have accomplished the incredible engineering feat you describe.

[Hovertime]

And lastly - you have to do your own homework.

[macboffin]

And lastly - you have to do your own homework.

Yes indeed; how do you propose to get backing for a system you cannot describe or understand, and which apart from technical considerations is a can of operational and legal worms?
A BIG can, so research the whole field first.

[workshop]

I'll research his field if he tells us where it's hidden... :rolleyes:

Sorry again... I just can't help it... :D

Jeff

[tomfoolery726]

This IS my homework. I don't know what these machines are capable of. This is why I'm asking. But point taken. I'll come back when I have better knowledge of the fundamentals.

If anyone is willing to talk to me on the phone or through chat please email me, as you can tell I need a lot of guidance, and it would be a great help to have a knowledgeable friend to steer me in the right direction.

Thanks for your constructive comments.
workshop: Who are you? Go away.

[John O'Sullivan]

Workshop:
I guess you must find everything irristable.
Criticism for criticisms sake is meaningless unless you have something positive to contribute.

John

[workshop]

Guys... I'm just having a bit of fun... :p

TomFool's post looks like it is right out of the drug dealer's handbook:

"model making experience- None"?, "electronic making experience- None"?, "500 miles"?, "interstate/international border crossing"?, "drop supplies and leaflets"?, IN TIMES OF CONFLICT??????

Come ON guys.... If you don't see it then you've been smoking too (much/little - pick one) pot! A sense of humor is needed here. :D

Bye Tom! Good luck with your "education".... :rolleyes:

Jeff

[John O'Sullivan]

Workshop:
"Come ON" indeed! Again you chose to ridicule an inexperienced newcomer with only four posts, rather than present "education". Very positive contribution!
John

[Jack Crossfire]

You can build any UAV you want and be flying it next week. It's just a matter of throwing money at the problem. A helicopter UAV kit with useful payload and spare parts can be built in a week with $10,000 of mail order parts. micropilot.com has the electronics. You supply the helicopter.

For $17,000 rotomotion will do everything for you. Obstacle avoidance is done by programming waypoints for a GPS computer to follow. You're not fighting a war with this thing.

Any 500 mile solution would require a gasoline engine. 500 miles sounds excessive for humanitarian efforts. If Bin Laden destroyed Calif*, that would be 500 miles. More likely, he's going to destroy Road Island. 50 miles.

If you want to minimize cost, it could take longer and be harder. Forget about fixed wings.

Anything over $40,000 and you're better off flying an ultralight.

[kd7ost]

If you want to minimize cost, it could take longer and be harder. Forget about fixed wings.

I'm pretty curious to hear about the justification for this comment.

Dan

[macboffin]

I'll research his field if he tells us where it's hidden... :rolleyes:

Sorry again... I just can't help it... :D

Jeff
There are interpretation algorhythms available which can analyse U.V. pics of foliage below and determine the species of weeds growing; should help your quest! Beware the ack-ack fire though!

[Jack Crossfire]

For humanitarian missions in a disaster area, you need to be able to drop off payloads and pick up payloads without a runway. You need to access people living on their roofs in a sea of poisonous flood water. You need to navigate urban areas with no open spaces. You need to fly in 0 visibility, rain, and high winds. All roads lead to the helicopter.

[kd7ost]

For humanitarian missions in a disaster area, you need to be able to drop off payloads and pick up payloads without a runway. You need to access people living on their roofs in a sea of poisonous flood water. You need to navigate urban areas with no open spaces. You need to fly in 0 visibility, rain, and high winds. All roads lead to the helicopter.

Understood. That's a mighty fine RC copter. ;)

I think in conditions as described the last thing to do is to send anything other than a RC Tug boat out. I don't think the authorities would want anything flying in 0 visibility with rain and high winds. But I didn't realize Helicopters don't have problems with those conditions.

Best of luck with it.

Dan

[Hovertime]

Yeah it sure can fly fine in such conditions, as long as its pretty hefty.
Black hawk comes to mind as a perfect airframe.;)


OK guys, have fun here, I'll be leaving this thread now.

[Dog8]

Tom Fool,
You need to take time and do some research so that you might be more specific in your questions. The fact that you do not know who "Workshop" is indicates that you have not even taken the time to read through this forum. If this is a homework project may I ask what grade you are in?

[kd7ost]

Also,

It's great to have lofty goals. It gives you something to work towards. An end goal guides your research.

But when you have such a large goal you need to establish manageable steps along the way. This provides tangible real world knowledge that are building blocks to move on from.

First, does anyone in your group fly RC? That would be a first step. Getting the plane on and off the ground in one piece is a huge step to start with.

Then getting it to fly a GPS course within a short range. There are distances to waypoint that need to be made good for sequencing to occur. Do you use arrival or departure sequencing? It's a laundry list of things to accomplish. The best questions are the ones that come up because your team has met an obstacle. The best answers come when your team solves that problem.

What you’re talking about can be done of course. But it takes a lot to do it. Anyone that can do it now has huge budgets, engineers and perhaps more important, many years of experience behind them.

Dan

[workshop]

When planning mission goals for UAVs (especially UAVs that are still in the planning stage), one should first consider if the mission can be accomplished by general aviation better, faster or cheaper.

IMO, mission goals should take advantage of the specific capabilities that UAVs have over GA (ultra low altitude survey, location specific AP, SAR, remote fire detection, toxic air sample collection, IR crop survey, etc.).

Start with a job that can't be done with a DeHavilland Twin Otter or CH-47 Chinook.

Constructive Comments:
Workshop: 1
John O'Sullivan: 0

Jeff :)

[John O'Sullivan]

Well workshop, I'm glad that you have overcome your snide elitist previous posts. I never doubted your ability to contribute, but you did not have to crap on someone who has just discovered the art of UAVs.
I think your idea of this being a Workshop vs John O'Sullivan thing is a little childish. I contribute positively where I have expertise, but as I have not yet flown autonomously, I am therefore reluctant to give advice on it.
John

[workshop]

I wasn't snidely crapping on anybody John. I just though it was funny that he sounded so much like a drug dealer. :) It seems your “expertise” is as misplaced in this thread as are my childish comments.

One more bit of advice Tom; One should have a sense of humor whilst tackling huge projects.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
--Hamlet (III, ii, 239) :rolleyes:

Jeff

[John O'Sullivan]

Touche!
Let's move on - up, up and away!
John

[SST32]

I'll research his field if he tells us where it's hidden... :rolleyes:

Sorry again... I just can't help it... :D

Jeff


heh heh, you hippie!


:p