Searching for a proper airplane for UAV project

[Fox2233]

Hi everybody,

I'm new hear and my name is Malte. I hope my English isn't too bad because I'm from Germany and don't speak English very often.

And now to my project. After making an intership at the german UAV producerEMT (http://www.emt-penzberg.de) I decided to build my own small UAV. My aim is a UAV which can fly autonomously (start and landing can be manually) and has a range of 3 miles and a flight time of 30 minutes. It should send two video signals from 2 video cameras (one front and one down looking camera) to the ground station. The average amount of money I have available is 2500$. Do you think this is possible?

As the title says I'm searching for proper airplane first. I think it should have a wingspan around 150-200cm and because of the front camera I need space in the front so it should be a pusher pro or a multiengine. The fuselage shouldn't be too small so that all the components and possibly a little extra payload find place in it.

I hope you know any planes who sytisfys those requirements.

I have looked around all over the internet and found those two planes:
Long-EZ 46 (http://ak-models.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AKM&Product_Code=RM-5&Category_Code=RichModel_GasPower)
C-160 Transall (http://www.raidentech.com/getrcarfniga.html)

What do you say to these planes?


Thanks for your answers!!!!

Malte

[Myron]

Hey Malte,

Welcome!.. There is a wealth of info in these forums. You will probabaly find as many different opinions on aircraft as members that participate here. You will find many guys that scratch build their own aircraft from the ground up and many others that use an off the shelf bird and then make modifications from there. I prefer the flying wings (Walter and Reimer Horton style) over a conventional aircraft.. A flying wing that is hand launchable is limited to less than about 3lbs in payload where as a conventional aircraft that lifts off the ground can be much larger and carry more.
We(www.rpflightsystems.com) have developed both and you can see them the web.
We like the portability of the wing and they are very durable plus you dont need a prepared runway.
As for your video system, do you plan on viewing both views at the same time or do you want to toggle between both cameras via switch on the radio? As for your budget of 2500 US, I doubt you will be able to have a fully autonomous bird. Most AP systems start closer to the $5000.00 USD mark...

Good Luck,
Myron

[macboffin]

I agree with Myron, flying wing is a good way to go; they are very stable and can fly when conventional planes the same size would be grounded.It is the wing which flies, everything else is along for the ride; with a "Wing" the weight and drag of "the rest" is minimal, in other words, high efficiency.With plug-in wings, an easy transport package also. If you are worried about the rear prop,( has been known to catch launcher's hands) put the motor on a pylon over the wing.
Good luck with the project! Mac.

[Fox2233]

Hi Myron,

I would prefer to buy and modify a model than scratch building one. Because i think its not too easy and costs much time so I think its better for me to buy an approved airplane. I'm also more interested in UAV stuff than in building the fuselage and wings.
I'm not sure but for me these flying wings look if there wasn't a lot of space in them and furthermore they lool a bit queer ;)

It would be nice if I could view both video signals at the same time. Then you can always watch where the plane is flying and on another screen you can see what is going up on the ground. In the company where I was thay had also a small UAV which transmitted 6 video signals at the same time. For the downlink they used devices from http://www.bms-inc.com/ Probably the units will be extremly to expensive but maybe theres a cheaper way to cope it.
I will try to "develop" my own autopilot. I have a friend who is really good in programming and stuff and i have not set a time limit for this so we will see what gets out of it. We try to get from a remote control to an autonomous flight more and more. Let's see how far we get.

Good night! (already 3 o'clock in the morning here)

Malte

[Myron]

Malte,

Its only 8:20pm here so I'm just getting warmed up! You know that the Horton brothers from Germany pioneered the flying wing and their designs were way ahead of their time and the current B1 bomber is basically a refined and much larger version of the Horton IX also called the GOTHA 229... IF all you want is video I can promise you that a 50"ish wing is more than capable to suit your needs... I do however understand if your not comfortable with a wing. There alot of guys that are buying a Telemaster and modifying it for a UAV testbed. IF all you need is a 30 minute flight I would go with an electric version..

Myron

[Fox2233]

Hi,
Ok, you have concinced me with your flying wings. I have found this uav http://www.lewaerospace.com/images/LEWcCLASS1.jpg
INVENTUS C-CLASS (http://www.lewaerospace.com/uavC.htm)
and it's specifications are awesome. It supports up to 3 pounds payload and has flight times of 2,5 hours with electric power. Such an airframe would be perfect. Do you think it is possible to build a flying wing witch similar specifications. Or are there any similar flying wings available on the market?

Thanks,

Malte

[Airboatflyingshp]

That bird looks like a moulded carbon /graphite Exoshell...........very tricky very expensive and access to your hard ware may be an issue............you might want to save money and use an enlarged version of the SPAD classic Mugi or one of these......links to follow
http://users.netcon.net.au/~maldemo/plans.htm http://users.netcon.net.au/~maldemo/gals.htm
Mugi delta http://www.mugi.co.uk/

find the giant black one down under
The other way is to look at an aircraft like the M55 Mystic, Cessna Skymaster in tubo prop pusher only form, FW Uhu or motorise the WW 2 German twinboom assault glider..sorry Ive forgot at the moment who produced it......if you want to keep to real aircraft types there is also the British Heston a couple of interesting French designs French Like the SO Narval :cool: ......I can stick up 3 views if you are interested. Also the SAAB 21.
keeping scale - Feeling ambitious.......... how about a Armstrong Argosy using 4 geared brush motors. :D


A pusher electric is definately the way to go but keeping to a seperate pod and wing makes like easier for the home builder especially if you can seperate the Airframe flying functions from your mission pod,

There is also a free plan called Big Brother a 2+m twin boom pusher motor sailplane from a French designer.
Simillar but available as a German RTF from Jamara is their lovey almost born to the job easy riser,it will fly for hours on a cheap geared motor or brushless.
I can also show you some neat vintage designs that would fit the job spec and Grosswing also fits the wing + pusher pod but idea with a tail boom and rudder ..PM me if you want me to put up links/plans or pictures :) I can only cope with so many splurges of ideas :D

[Myron]

Malte,

That one is from Lew Areopace and also marketed under SPI Infrared. If your not sitting down, you may want to before you hear its price.... 80,000.00 USD!!! There are many flying wing kits available, however none of them are designed to carry a payload. Most people beleive that a flying wing is for sport or play only. We use them for work! If you visit our website, you will see that we primarily use them for Search and Recovery missions with 3 finds to date. We also do alot of work with local emergency management agencies.
What exactly are your mission priorities? Its always best to start with a good outline of what you expect the aircraft to do.. Extensive planning prevents extensive spending!

Myron

[Fox2233]

Hi Airboatflyingshp,

Thank you for all your posted airplanes most of them look really good.

Hi Myron,

Yes I already read the price for this UAV on another site. But i think the airframe isn't a big part of this price the autopilot and other electronic stuff is probably responsible for the high price.

My mission priorities are more experimental. Witch this airframe I want to try to develop a working up- and downlink with a range of 3 miles and later the autonomous flight, explore the nearer environment and maybe take some aerial photos.
Important for the airplane is that
1. the front is free for a camera
2. flight time is at least 30 minutes (the longer the better)
3. it can take an extra payload of 1 pound ( for a photocamera or a parachute jumper for example)
4. complete flying weight not more than 10 pounds (because of local laws here in germany)
5. electric powered (also because of the laws)
6. not too hard to fly

The Inventus looked great to me because of its lang endurance and large lifting capacity of 3lbs but I'm open to all kinds of aircrafts.

Thanks,

Malte

[kd7ost]

In a development scenario, I mean if you're developing the electronics, it helps to have a flying test bed that that is roomy and easy to work inside of.

It might be better to do as Myron suggested above and use an existing conventional airframe like the Telemaster. Various sizes available at Hobby Lobby. Also a good flyer is the Sig Rascal 110 or Sig Senior. These are in ARF form, easy to modify the interior and are very roomy inside.

It's pretty tough to come up with a final product first time around. Most people gain success with a step by step approach. Buying a pre-existing functional and roomy airframe is a common starting point.

Dan

[Fox2233]

Hi Dan,

In a development scenario, I mean if you're developing the electronics, it helps to have a flying test bed that that is roomy and easy to work inside of.

I completely agree to you with this statement. I thought there is maybe an ARF airplane similar to the Iventus C-class.
The problem with the Telemaster and Sig rascal is that they have their motor and prop in the front so it would be difficult to place a camera there and I don't which flight times you can reach with those models and an electric motor.


Malte

[Airboatflyingshp]

Take a look at a the Australian UAV Endurance link I posted in the Catalina Island UAV thread ...........and get creative. Take a look at http://spadslopers.desertsites.net/
Now take a big wing glider and add twin or more electric pushers to the trailing edge or a single motor twin boom like big Brother /Easyriser but fit a wider flatter nose pod aerofoil shaped if you want.....check out the Grosswing layout ..I added by edit.

Keep your wing load low- large enough and you can soar/coast having gained altitude if you get it right.....


Have you ever seen the real thing ....look up the Edgley Optica.

[kd7ost]

Hi Dan,
I completely agree to you with this statement. I thought there is maybe an ARF airplane similar to the Iventus C-class.
The problem with the Telemaster and Sig rascal is that they have their motor and prop in the front so it would be difficult to place a camera there and I don't which flight times you can reach with those models and an electric motor.
Malte

I understand. That just minimizes your "off the shelf" choices and will raise your cost as you get into more specialty aircraft.

Unless you do like Airboat suggests and just scratch build your own plane. I'm thinking you might not want to go that route though?

Some people take existing conventional aircraft and modify the nose for camera gear and put the motor on a pod.

This stuff isn't cheap if it is easy.

You're not going to get hours of duration, massive interior size, etc in common planes. You will have o pay a high price for that or roll your own. I made the plane in my avatar because I couldn't find one that would do what I needed.

Dan

[Airboatflyingshp]

:cool: Can we see a close up of that one please Kd7 I have a soft spot for twin booms. There are larger RTF skmasters out there you could start with one but they are a based on two motors.
A simple SPAD based structure would allow you to experiment without a conventional build time.

[kd7ost]

You bet,

I designed it for agriculture photography. It has a Fuji BT32A, (32 cc 2 Cycle gosoline engine) and a span of 102 inches. I have used it for 2 years now and the on-board GPS shows an accumulation of 2,280 miles.

Dan

[Blue Sky]

Don't forget the Multiplex Easy Star!
Very stable and easy to fly.
Durable, easy to repair and modify.
Readily available from multiple sources.
Pusher design meets your camera needs.
Non-intimidating looks do not draw unwanted attention.
One of the most popular planes for AP and FPV so plenty
of information available on modifications.
Two piece wing makes for easy transport.
Inherant stability means you can use simpler autopilot design.

-Dave

[Airboatflyingshp]

Very True but Im wondering if its going to be large enough for his plans.
This little job is called a Wizard its simple and scale:D

[Fox2233]

Hi,

@Airboatflyingshp:
These Big Brother and Easy Riser airplanes would fit very good if there wasn't the problem of the tight fuselage. It seems as if they were full when you put some batteries in there.
Is this flying wing in your second post purchaseable or have you any details of it?

@Dan:
Really nice UAV you have build. That's the thing I'm searching for it's only a little bit too big for me because of the local regulations here it is not possible to fly fuel powered planes and for an electric version I would need tons of expensive batteries.

I think the thing I need is a Easy riser with a bigger fuselage or a smaller version of Dan's UAV or a Flying wing like this red one on the photo :rolleyes:

Malte

[Myron]

Malte,

Do you have any experience scratch building? You may want to consider buying a wing kit for an off the shelf model and just building your own fuse. Do you have the tooling available to scratch build? I know a large portion of the guys in this forum build their own stuff. You could get wing cores and other parts from "nasty toes aviation" and just build your own flying machine!

Myron

[Airboatflyingshp]

Myron has made a good point find a supplier of foam wing cores..have a chat find if they have a nice long broad wing that fits you needs....building your tail is simple flat sheet and as the little Wizard shows a couple of simple booms and your a long way to being there.
The other option is scour your local EBay/swap meets for suitable parts- Its worked for me on more than one occasion

[Fox2233]

Hi,

I have no direct experiences of scratch building airplanes but I have lots of building experiences of other models like cars etc. I have some tools available and a little cnc-miller. The only thing I never worked is this foam stuff so i would prefer to build the airplane from wood or glass fibre.
do you think it's possible to put a larger fuselage on the easy riser for example without changing its flight qualities?

Malte

[Airboatflyingshp]

As long as you keep the Cofg the same..the balance in other words and you don't overload the structure you should be fine ...what sort of payload are we talking about?

SPAD can include foam but it usually at this size means Corrugated Polypropylene plastic very tough and all you do is fold it round a wood strip simple spar. You need to take a look - it might suit you and the plans are simple and free.

There is also a simpler kind of all sheet wing called a Jedelsky it can work well if the lower surface is covered in film over the lower surface ...normally it is left open and is less efficient as an aerofoil but....this gives it a useful boost at little cost in materials time or wt.

[Myron]

Malte,

Check this link out for a possible supplier of parts...

http://nastytoesaviation.com/

[Fox2233]

Hi,

I have however decided to buy an ARF kit first. I will try to build up my own airplane of the whole electrics work correct in the ARF model.
This is the thing i have choosen:
http://ak-models.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/LIGHTNING%20DART.jpg
Lightning Dart (http://ak-models.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AKM&Product_Code=RM-24&Category_Code=RichModel_GasPower)

There is not too much space in it but I think I will come along with it and I hope to get long flight times.

But thanks for all your good advices and links!!!

Now I have to look for a good and effective Lipo / Brushless combination.


Malte

[Airboatflyingshp]

Malte,

Check this link out for a possible supplier of parts...

http://nastytoesaviation.com/

What a great fun concept , do you think they would add floats or a stepped hull fuselage?:cool: ..........#

As you've gone for a 70" wing you can still add a longer pod to the wing when you've had a play ..you could even turn it into a Canard....increase payload area and spread the load ..smooth out the low speed flight.

[Myron]

Malte,

That Wing looks awesome!.. It looks like it flies with a .15 glow motor.. I would suggest an AXI 2814-12.. this little motor is what we use on our 4+ lb wing and it flies awesome.. We do run it with a big 5000Mah lipo...

Myron

[Fox2233]

Hi,

Nice idea Airboatflyingshp. I will look how much space is in there and ad a bigger fuselage in the middle if necessary. Maybe the batteries can be but into the wings to have more space in the fuselage.

On the ak-models hompage they write that it flies with a .46 motor. I think it will be around 6lbs ready to flight.
Do you think the AXI 2814-12 has enough power for this weight or should I take a bigger motor?
And how long is the flight time you get with the 5000mah lipo?


Malte

[Airboatflyingshp]

As a half way measure you could fit a belly pod keep the cofg the same ...............as for the motor choice I don't know enough about Brush less I'm a fan of low tech Ivan lots of geared cans and fly for a half an hour or more on 3,300Nimhs .... but if you use a folding prop and you can glide with less drag.
On a glow if you want to extend the range, swing a bigger prop and reduce the noise you can fit a diesel head conversion by someone like Davies.

[Myron]

Malte,

I am having trouble with the link so I could not see specs on this bird.. I can tell for sure that our flying wings that have a 55-60" wing and weigh about 4.5 lbs that AXI is plenty of power for hand launch and a steep climb out. IT will fly for about 40 minutes or more with good throttle management. We have actually flown them for upwards of an hour with some thermal activity and glide/climb/glide flying..
It appears that this wing is build up balsa construction? I would be a little hesitant in going that route since you will be expiramenting with your electronics.. If that bird crashes, your gonna be doing alot of time consuming repairs... If you go with a foam core wing, you can litteraly crash it into trees with little damage and all you need to get back in the air is some hot glue or packing tape... If I was you, I would look in the "flying wing" forum here to see the abuse some of these things are subject to.. Balsa built up stuff would NEVER hold up!...

Myron

[libelulamodelos]

we got the terraco.

[clolson]

we got the terraco.

I'm not much of an aircraft designer myself, but I spent my entire academic career (kindergarten through grad school) drawing airplanes and space ships and extravagent space ship battles in class (when I should have been taking notes or doing school work) ... so I have strong opinions about what aircraft designs I like and don't like.

So with those credentials in mind, I will say that I *really* like the design and lines of your Terraco ... you guys did a great job with it!

Curt.

[Sparky Paul]

Hi,

I have however decided to buy an ARF kit first. I will try to build up my own airplane of the whole electrics work correct in the ARF model.
This is the thing i have choosen:
http://ak-models.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/LIGHTNING%20DART.jpg
Lightning Dart (http://ak-models.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AKM&Product_Code=RM-24&Category_Code=RichModel_GasPower)

There is not too much space in it but I think I will come along with it and I hope to get long flight times.

But thanks for all your good advices and links!!!

Now I have to look for a good and effective Lipo / Brushless combination.


Malte.
I like that! Almost got out the VISA to order one! :)
But... if you're a newbie at flying r/c, wings are not good choices unless you fly other wings, like a ZAGI, before this one to get used to the very real orientation problems at distance wings have.
A conventional plane is easier to see, easier to fly, and has more room inside.

[Fox2233]

Hi,

I like that! Almost got out the VISA to order one!

Nice to hear this!
It would be nice if there was another person with a Lightning Dart who I can talk to ;)


But... if you're a newbie at flying r/c, wings are not good choices unless you fly other wings, like a ZAGI, before this one to get used to the very real orientation problems at distance wings have.
You are right but I don't expect to be able to fly this wing within a week or two. I will train a lot with a simulator at the pc and maybe I can find a more advanced r/c pilot who flies in teacher mode with me. A colourfull paint would maybe help for a better orientation

Here is the link again maybe it worls this way
http://ak-models.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AKM&Product_Code=RM-24&Category_Code=RichModel_GasPower

And the Specifications:

Wing span: 70 in / 1778mm
Wing area: 877.3 sq in /56.6sq dm
Flying weight: 5.3 lb / 2400g
Fuselage length: 22.9 in / 582 mm
Engine Required: 2c .46 cu in
Radio Required: 5 channels,6 servos

malte

[Myron]

Malte,

Although that wing looks really great, I think its size and construction material arent the best choice for a first time project with new electronics. IF something goes wrong and it crashes, your going to be doing alot of reair work.. If you go with a foam core unit, you can make repairs quick and easy.. Just my .2C

Myron

[Fox2233]

Hi Myron,

you are right this model is really not the best for hard landings and crashes. Bur I have already ordered it. Maybe I can find some cheap foam wing for the first tests.
What do you mean with the size isn't the best? Should it be bigger or smaller?

Malte

[Myron]

Malte,

You can actually go much smaller for what you want to do.. Our 48" flying wing can carry 1lb of payload in addition to the stock electronics.. If your only testing the electronics then you can go much smaller than a .46 powered model.. You should be flying something that is more in the range of 3lbs.

Myron

[aerogel]

How about one of these

Queen Bee 100 inch EPP Flying Wing
http://www.windrider.com.hk/products/product.cfm?id=9
huge wing!

or
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/skymaster.htm
This one looks promising for single engine use lots of room to put stuff in.

[macboffin]

Nice pics, nice plane! Thanks for posting.
Mac

[Airboatflyingshp]

How about one of these

Queen Bee 100 inch EPP Flying Wing
http://www.windrider.com.hk/products/product.cfm?id=9
huge wing!

or
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/skymaster.htm
This one looks promising for single engine use lots of room to put stuff in.

That foam skymaster is over wt and needs both motors there are larger ones but they cost ....................there are free plans for a simple version ..I can point you to and theres a spad version.
But you would need more wing and less wt to keep this plot aloft for any time, MacB did you get my reply PM?

[libelulamodelos]

I'm not much of an aircraft designer myself, but I spent my entire academic career (kindergarten through grad school) drawing airplanes and space ships and extravagent space ship battles in class (when I should have been taking notes or doing school work) ... so I have strong opinions about what aircraft designs I like and don't like.

So with those credentials in mind, I will say that I *really* like the design and lines of your Terraco ... you guys did a great job with it!

Curt.

Thanks mr. clolson :)

[Unterhausen]

Thanks mr. clolson :)I agree with Curt, it's a very impressive plane. I watched your video a while back, very nice work
Eric

[Brandon Crash]

hi there guys, can one of you point me to plans for the "big brother", as i couldn't open the zip that Airboatflyingshp posted.

Thanks in advance.

Brandon.