Airplane Suggestion for Windy Days

[Glauco]

I have some good sailplanes for light air but I'm looking for a TD contest plane to fly on those windy days, say above 15 mph.

Let's say you flew at the Soaring Masters last year and could have chosen any sailplane for the first two days, would you have started with something different if you knew beforehand the wind would be up as it was.

Most likely F3B planes would be good for these days. Have you flown some on TD/F3J to recommend like the Victor, Crossfire, German Eagle.

The Espada R is one I would consider so let me know if you have one NIB willing to part.

Thanks

Glauco

[Robglover]

Glauco -

I'd not change planes for a windy day. I flew an Icon and a Supra at the Masters and they both did well in the varying conditions. Being able to ballast a model that works well in all conditions is the answer for me.

happy trails - Rob

[glderguy]

For what ever reason ,for me anyway, when I ballast say a 60 ounce plane up to say 80, it just doesnt seem to work as well as a plane that naturally comes in heavier/higher wing loading. Not sure why, maybe just me.
Walter

[davidjensen]

The HN354 airfoil of the Xperience Pro does very well in windy conditions.

[rdwoebke]

For what ever reason ,for me anyway, when I ballast say a 60 ounce plane up to say 80, it just doesnt seem to work as well as a plane that naturally comes in heavier/higher wing loading.

Are you sure you are not inadvertently changing your CG? When I first started to ballast (with my Paragon, granted, not the quality of stuff that is being discussed in this thread) I thought it worked well but the plane did not seem to fly as well. I thought that was a side effect of the ballast thing But then I checked my CG better, and learned I had moved it forward accidently. Addressed this and now it just gives the thing more legs without effecting handeling, etc.

Ryan

[cody303]

I would go with the Espada it is sweet in the wind. The quality is awesome, it can hold a lot of ballast, and it is very strong. Plus there was 2 of them in the fly offs at the masters so it has proven it's self in the wind.

Little Cody

[Robglover]

I would go with the Espada it is sweet in the wind. The quality is awesome, it can hold a lot of ballast, and it is very strong. Plus there was 2 of them in the fly offs at the masters so it has proven it's self in the wind.

Little Cody

Cody -

Does the Espada also perform well in light air?
If so then we have a solution! :)

There are a few planes out there that do pretty well over a wide range of conditions. Then there are some that do well for only one condition. Same deal with pilots. Some of us do well with a plane in good conditions, but we very seldom practice in gale (Masters) conditions. The folks who do well do so because they get out and learn how to fly their planes as well as possible in all conditions.

[cody303]

The R has a wide range of conditions it will do well in. It really excels in average conditions and windy conditions, and it will do pretty well in light conditions but it will get out hung by a Supra or Espada RL by a little bit. In TD you will very rarely have conditions were the Supra or RL out hanging it by a little bit will actually matter. But if you are looking for a real light air plane you should be looking at the Espada RL which also has a wide range of conditions it will do well in. Only it does very well light and average conditions. The RL also flies very well in strong wind, but the R is better.

Little Cody

[glderguy]

Hi Ryan. I usually move my CG forward a tad when adding ballast, maybe too much. Probably more just dont like flying TD ships in gales, launching and hovering in "the wave" til it leaves or following that fast moving horizontal bubble way down wind and sometimes not making it home even w/ballast. I do this stuff for fun and dont find TD flying in gales fun. TD contest or not when the gale blows I wrap it up.
Walter

[rdwoebke]

I have read some pilots actually like to move the CG back when adding ballest.

[jrerickson]

Really? Haven't seen that very often. I like to move my cg a little forward in strong winds. Plane seems to track better.

John

[Glauco]

I understand the ballast point but I'm not looking for the best overall plane.
I have a Superior which I really like and floats quite well on calm days and I'm building a bagged Supra which should get under 50 oz but it looks like every contest the wind is hauling more and more.
Just want one for those days like the Masters. It has to be able to carry a bunch of weight and take a good launch without too much worry.
I really like the Espada R but sorry Cody, both you and Rich Burnoski would do well with several other planes. I do understand both are good pilots capable of chosing good airplanes so a point to the Espada for that.

[roydor]

I use my Superior for average to windy conditions and it does rather well even without ballast. I usually don't add more then 250 grams but when the wind really picks up I don't feel I need more then 450 grams. Usually I prefer being a little on the light side in order to climb better in the thermal and use the altitude to come back faster, rather then being heavy and fast. Its a matter of habit.

My Perfect is also quit good in winds but has to be ballasted correctly. it has a much better L/D than the Superior so when ballasted correctly it will out glide the Superior in windy conditions both in time and distance. But again, it has to be ballasted correctly and this requires some practice in windy conditions. The only problem I see with the Perfect in windy conditions is that it pulls really hard and needs thicker lines so not to tare them.

Roy

[rdwoebke]

Really? Haven't seen that very often. I like to move my cg a little forward in strong winds.

Most recently I heard that suggestion from Tony Esteep. He alluded to it here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=609327

I have been trying to keep the CG the same on my Paragon and Allegro Lite when adding ballast (well, since I first noticed I had inadvertently moved it on the Paragon).

Of course, you are a well known top competitor too, so I'll heed your suggestions in this area as well.

Ryan

[tonyestep]

Actually I take care to set up my ballast so that the cg doesn't change. My previous post was in response to a question about the Challenger, whose entire ballast box is forward of the cg. The plane would be really nose-heavy if heavily ballasted, which would make penetration difficult since the plane would balloon every time it hit a gust. If you fly with a relatively conservative cg, as I do, it can be easier to penetrate if you move it back a little in the wind. JE, having better eyesight and coordination than me, probably already has the cg so far back that I wouldn't be able to fly his plane.

Glauco, what you really need for wind is a V-tail Superior. I know where you can get one that has very low mileage, only flown by a little old lady who pulsed the winch all the way up.

[Lowey]

I can vouch for the Perfect also. I had the chance to fly it at one of our premier competition here in Oz recently in 7-12mps wind. For those that know our conditions, that includes wind gusts to over 25mps too. I hadnt flown it in these conditions yet, normally reverting to the F3B models.
The Perfect not only launched exceptionally well (mono line, anything less then 1.3mm it will break), but covered the sky really well ballasted.
At a flying wieght of 3kg's it was able to penetrate easily, and came home from waaaaay down wind when it had no right too.
I was flying a standard lay-up, but there was also a double carbon lay-up been flown by David Hobby. Full pedal launches all the way to the top on mono line in 7mps wind plus... awesome. His Perfect launched as high as any of the top F3B models and better!

As was previously mentioned in another post, the Superior will also handle most conditions too and carries ballast really well.
I think you will find that most of the new F3J toys are designed and built to handle all conditions now, if ballasted correctly ;)
We're spoilt for choice!

Cheers,
Matt

[cody303]

The Perfect is a great plane, but I am not sure I would recommend it as a high wind plane... The ballast tube is small for such a big plane.

Little Cody

[Lowey]

The Perfect is a great plane, but I am not sure I would recommend it as a high wind plane... The ballast tube is small for such a big plane.


Interesting. For those that dont know the Perfect ballast system, it is basically the same as the Icon - drop your ballast bar weight of choice into the fuse, screw down the holding bolt and fly. Nice and simple.
You can make bars to suite the various weights you need to carry for different conditions. The ballast tube is built looong too, so you can cut your ballast bar length to suite your preferred CG.
Flying at 3kgs the Perfect was surprisingly comfortable in high wind

Matt

[cody303]

The Icon Ballast system will hold 44 ounces, but the perfect holds around 20 ounces with the factory brass ballast bar you would be able to get a little more weight if you made it out of lead, but I still think the tube needs to be bigger. The perfect is an awesome plane and DH proved it at the worlds. I just think there are better planes for high wind.

Little Cody

[OVSS Boss]

One ship not mentioned is the Fazer, a bit small on span, but I have loved flying mine in these conditions, starts at 75 ounces and can go over 90 with brass. Even weighted up can work tough air and cover a lot of ground.

Marc

[Silent-AV8R]

If I had the WSM to do over I would have flown my NYX. 80 ounces empty and 96 with ballast. It would have been a much better ride than an empty Sharon!!! I had it with me but REALLY wanted to fly the Sharon. Another bad decision. I love the Sharon, but it does not excel in high winds (unless MS is holding the TX apparently).

[tonyestep]

Ben Clerx's Fazer kicked butt at the WSM. Marc, you've also flown a NYX, I think(?) How would you compare the two? Which would you recommend for Glauco? How about a Tragi?

[glderguy]

Did Arend Borst fly a ballasted Supra at the WSM? How did he do there with it?

[F3X]

Look at the X 21. Very good in windy conditions and holds enough ballast to fill 3 other F3J models.
Tragi 705x is sweet also. Super handling. Large ballast tube.

[glderguy]

I thought the Icon had sliding tube type ballast system making it very adjustable, the "perfect" ballast system. I think more versatile than loading ballast bars.
Walter

[tonyestep]

Arend Borst did indeed fly a Supra at the WSM. I heard him tell JW that he had 24 oz. in on the last day (the day when the wind dropped). I don't know how much he had on the first two days. He and Mike Reagan were successful with Supras in the wind; many, many others were not.

[Robglover]

My Supra can hold 40 ounces+ of tungsten ballast. I cannot imagine ever needing that much. It seems to need about half the ballast to reap the same benefit as some other popular planes. Low drag helps.

[Glauco]

My Supra can hold 40 ounces+ of tungsten ballast. I cannot imagine ever needing that much. It seems to need about half the ballast to reap the same benefit as some other popular planes. Low drag helps.

I hope so and I'm really curious to see how a 48oz Supra flies with say 10 to 20 oz ballast but other than the low inertia compared to the molded Supras I don't see much advantage. That is the main reason to find an airplane for windy days.

[OVSS Boss]

Tony, I had a Nyx for a while, but in my books, the Fazer is a better thermal ship. But Aresti is not off in his call, I would feel really on my own with an unballastable ship, and the Nyx verges on F3B type numbers. It would work too.

Marc

[Robert Burson]

Glauco,

You don't need a great windy day ship, just a great timer. Hope you get your Supra finished, green right.

The Best
Robert

[Jim_Marconnet]

My Supra can hold 40 ounces+ of tungsten ballast. I cannot imagine ever needing that much. It seems to need about half the ballast to reap the same benefit as some other popular planes. Low drag helps.
Just being ornery, but think what you could get in there if you could find some depleted uranium! :D

[Glauco]

Glauco,

You don't need a great windy day ship, just a great timer. Hope you get your Supra finished, green right.

The Best
Robert

Bob, you noticed this thread is about finding a good airplane for those windy days since that is what I need. If I needed a great timer it would be called "How to find a great timer".
Fortunately I do have a great timer that unfortunately has a questionable taste for airplane colors. Actually I can't say much since I just took the Supra fin off the bag and it is a perfect sky blue color. I do like challenges and finding this plane on the sky will be one of them :D

Back to the subject how does your pink Pike Giant performs in the wind? No one mentioned a Giant so far.

[OVSS Boss]

Actually Jim, if anyone here on this list could, Rob glover would be the one.

Marc

[Robglover]

Just being ornery, but think what you could get in there if you could find some depleted uranium! :D

That would probably cause herpes in California or something equally bad.

[Robglover]

Actually Jim, if anyone here on this list could, Rob glover would be the one.

Marc


Not me Bubba. Jim works in the other end of the same building I'm in. I think his group has all the DU. ;)

[davidjensen]

We are going to Eagle Butte on Sunday and I will finally be able to test the XPro on the slope. I have 27 oz of available ballast. Winds are forcast at Pasco to be 12 to 15 which translates to 20+ at the hill.

[Robert Burson]

Back to the subject how does your pink Pike Giant performs in the wind? No one mentioned a Giant so far.

Since Jojo, is the expert on Giant Pikes, maybe he will chime in. The Gaint has those huge flaps, and a flexed airfoil in its molded position, same as the Supra. The trick is to find the cruise setting for a given CG, with the flaps drooped a little ( how much of a little is the question ). I watched Jojo, launch with a large amount of camber, maybe .75 of an inch. Well after moving the hook all the way back and still not getting the launch angle I am looking for, it finally dawned on me why he used so much flap. The Giant is a great ship, with a steep learning curve for settings, you really have to work to find the sweet spot. Flew over Christmas, and got great performance increase with some simple changes. Steady 10mph which is the average for winter time in the midwest.

Your faithful timer,
Robert

Let me guess, light blue,Dark blue, yellow, and maybe a little green. These kids from Brazil are so predictable. PICTURES..PICTURES...PICTURES. Sitting here waiting for the snow to stop, so I can go fly my X5J event.

[Glauco]

Let me guess, light blue,Dark blue, yellow, and maybe a little green. These kids from Brazil are so predictable. PICTURES..PICTURES...PICTURES. Sitting here waiting for the snow to stop, so I can go fly my X5J event.

Yes, you got it, it is yellow and blue but actually baby blue since was hard to get the correct shade from the KlassKote website. Not as pretty as the Superior nor Brazilian at all but it is my baby. I hope to start a thread soon showing how this second stab and fin were built. More than 100 pictures to show.

[dhauch]

i always like a plane i can get double duty out of it.
a good windy day t/d plane and a f3b plane/sloper.

then your other t/d plane can be for lighter air and you never have to chance them in heavy winds, since most of these speciality light air planes are hard to get anyway.

going with a f3b plane you get a stronger model over just ballasting up your light layup t/d plane, and you get to fly some f3b task when you get bored poking holes in the ground. :)

plus a f3b plane is a whole lot of fun to fly for sport flying.
nothing more boring to me then having to BABY my light weight twig down from 2000 feet. :)

i've been flying a Stratos 6 and works great for what i'm talking about here.
other good choices have been mentioned like the X-21, Tragi's, Giant, a f3b layup on a Espada R.

dh
www.git-r-built.com

[aeajr]

If you are going to have a calm air plane, a normal air plane and a windy day plane, then I would be interested to hear if the wing loading or the air foil is the more important factor in selecting. Or do you end up with a heavy wing loading on an airfoil that is optimized for penetration over lift?

[Jim_Marconnet]

How about just having two different wings for your plane. One for calm days, one for windy days. Design them so the plane balances at the same CG location with either wing, or at least at the desired CG location for the condition the wing works best at.

Would that not be the very best of all worlds?

Of course you could decide you need 3 wings, or 4 wings, or.... Where ballast can easily come in different weights, use some or all of it.

[tonyestep]

Dave's suggestion of the Stratos 6 seems like a good one, Glauco. You wouldn't necessarily have to get the carbon. Airfoil very similar to Fazer, but the plane is a leetle bit bigger. It may also have the added advantage of actually being available.

[Gordysoar]

Hi David,

In the context of flying contests, the statement about an airfoil doing well, or a model doing well doesn't have any actual meaning.

Think about it. What does "does well" mean?

Other models went out but didn't get back, which resulted in the Exp Pro winning the contest...would mean something in the way of information.

In fact all current models are clean enough to do well in the wind. ALL

Heck I just watched an AVA fly right along side a Perfect and a Ballasted Supra in 15+mph winds in Orlando.

There is a GREAT reason to have a Crossfire, German Eagle or the like....cuz you want to fly one and because now we can...we can fly anything any round and any mix...and that's fun. Will it help our scores in the end..NOPE, not once has that been the case at any contest in the USA.

Will it make it more fun for the pilot ? Yep, I know cuz I own maybe one of the best fast ships for TD out there today...The Pike Giant..and I love it in the wind...and even more in calm :-)

And by the way have flown the Experience Pro, and you are right it works well!
Gordy
Now with 4 LSF 5 wins in 2 months :-)

[rdwoebke]

How about just having two different wings for your plane.

Actually Glauco, that is a really good suggestion Jim poses above. I have always felt it is most beneficial to have airplanes where you can mix/match parts (although have never (yet) had such a situation in TD). In hand launch, it was always useful to be able to have 2 fuselages and several wings (in case of a problem at a contest, problem with shipping, etc). It also really helped me understand the differences in how my planes were setup (aka having 2 fairly identical models and they don't fly the same leading to investigating why that is).

You could build another wing for your Supra (perhaps just a different layup). The non peformance reasons I could see for having a different windy weather wing (Gordy summed the contest stuff up pretty well) would be durability and saftey on tow. I have not handled a Supra wing, but flying in windy conditions can sometimes lead to not quite so perfect landings, so perhaps it would make sense to go with a bit heavier layup on the skins for your "windy weather ship"? Or do something heavier on the spar to give a person even more margin for error on launch? Dunno, I'll leave that for the experts, I'm just throwing out ideas.

Ryan

[SOAR-Steve]

I am real impressed with the FAZER's performance in the wind. Ballast and Skill is very helpful, which I was lacking both of at the WSM. However I was able to borrow some ballast from Jim McCarthy.

My Supra is not as tight as I would like it for heavy wind conditions. Have had the tip flutter once. Possibly from an aileron servo breaking loose. I do not have the recommended mod that is installed on later models.

Steve Meyer
LSF IV

[Robglover]

My Supra is not as tight as I would like it for heavy wind conditions. Have had the tip flutter once. Possibly from an aileron servo breaking loose. I do not have the recommended mod that is installed on later models.

Steve Meyer
LSF IV

Steve -

I'd managed to flutter ailerons a couple times with my old glass Supra as well. I had to work pretty hard to do so, definitely exceeding the speed necessary to get back home on a windy day. Fun, but not necessary. The first time I did it was launching on mono on a windy day, the zoom was awesome and noisy. :D

I flew my new all carbon Supra in a good breeze yesterday. It seems to be flutter proofed so far. 10 ounces heavier unballasted, but pretty solid. I did one real nice rapid descent from pretty high back to ground zero that would definitely have fluttered good old #37. #191 was unfazed. Looks like the mod works, I may have to retrofit #37.

happy trails - Rob

[dhauch]

there's a new Supra Race version.
he's picking up his first ones next week.

same Supra, but added bigger spar, and ballast tubes in the wing.
also stiffer boom available.

designed for f3f racing, but might be perfect for having that extra wing for those windy day t/d, or f3b flying too.

check with Barry for more info.
www.kennedycomposites.com

dh

[Robglover]

there's a new Supra Race version.
he's picking up his first ones next week.

same Supra, but they gutted the insides, and added bigger spar, and ballast tubes in the wing.
also stiffer boom available.

designed for f3f racing, but might be perfect for having that extra wing for those windy day t/d, or f3b flying too.

check with Barry for more info.
www.kennedycomposites.com

dh

Dave -

What is there to gut from the insides?

[dhauch]

Dave -

What is there to gut from the insides?

okay, bad wording, i changed it.

they added a bigger spar, and not sure on what they did on layup, have to ask barry for details.

dh

[Glauco]

This new Supra version could be a good option since I'm building a light one and could make my fuse bolt pattern to match the molded one.
The same would apply to a Giant that shares the fuse with the Superior so more spare parts.
But logic does not always work and I think a two piece wing looks so much better. On this category the Stratos 6 does look good and is a good candidate if I can't find my favorite, the Espada R.
Dave H, you mentioned the F3B layup on the Espada. I know the regular F3J version flex a bit for F3B but I understand the F3J version still strong enough for good launches, correct?

[dhauch]

yes, the f3j version Espada R will hold up from what i seen first hand at the f3b Team Select.

i seen them loaded up with ballast and put some very serious loads on them with mono and they held together.

thats amazing on a 63oz airplane.

the f3b layup Espada R's where night and day difference on stiffness.
I built a few of them and they where around 68-70oz. AUW.

dh

[dhauch]

I'm really impressed with my Stratos 6.

I picked it up just needing a f3b plane, and wasn't expecting alot.
but i was very surprised on the quality and it's flying performance.

quality is on level with a Tragi.

has a keel fuse which i love, and a nice easy loading ballast system, which i demand from any plane i own.
also love the ease of slamming together a 2 piece wing, i just can't get a plane together fast enough when it's time to fly. :)

this is the highest launching plane i've ever own.
it has nice big flaps, and really slows down great even with ballast.
it hangs really good using camber , and makes the prettiest thermal turns, i must have got lucky on the set up. :)

this is one smooth flying plane, with no bad habits at all.
which is why i love it for f3b, because i have enough bad habits of my own. :)

i've been going to sell this plane a few times, to try something else, thats what i do.
but i can never get myself to do it, because i know i'll miss it badly.
just like i do with Espada R i sold.

just thought i would share my feelings on this plane.
plus i'm stalling so i don't have to go back to work. :)
dh

[Glauco]

Dave, you really love your Stratos 6. Are you selling it?

If you had a Stratos 6 and a Espada R in front of you and you had to pick only one to live with you on a remote island what would be your choice and why?

[dhauch]

Dave, you really love your Stratos 6. Are you selling it?

If you had a Stratos 6 and a Espada R in front of you and you had to pick only one to live with you on a remote island what would be your choice and why?

does that island have slope, f3b winch, or a landing tape on it ? :)

i'll call you and we can talk all these options over.

dh

[tonyestep]

[QUOTE=Robglover]
I'd managed to flutter ailerons a couple times with my old glass Supra ...

----------------
The thing that is cool about the Pike Superior is that you can get it as high as you want, point it straight at the ground, and let it rip, get it going maybe 120 mph. It makes a scary sound, but nothing wiggles. Actually, my Pike (and maybe other Pikes too) is pretty noisy even at slow speeds -- on a calm day you can hear it whistle when you're circling in a thermal.

[Kaan]

No body mentioned Vision here :)

I have a v-tail version with d-box layup. My launches are not so hard since I prefer a bit less tension and more speed :) I made full pedal launches several times with F3B winches with calm winds. If you careful you may realize little bend during towing.

Last weekend I went slope with Vision. Weather report was showing 10-12knots. My Vision is almost 2100gr and needed no ballast. Penetrated well, according to me :), in both normal and thermal modes. Even in higher winds at the flat field I added only 200gr ballast to make it fly at normal speed.

Anyone here tried Vision?

Kaan

[Robglover]

[QUOTE=Robglover]
I'd managed to flutter ailerons a couple times with my old glass Supra ...

----------------
The thing that is cool about the Pike Superior is that you can get it as high as you want, point it straight at the ground, and let it rip, get it going maybe 120 mph. It makes a scary sound, but nothing wiggles. Actually, my Pike (and maybe other Pikes too) is pretty noisy even at slow speeds -- on a calm day you can hear it whistle when you're circling in a thermal.


My carbon Supra does this maneuver well also. Not so much noise though :D

[glderguy]

I have a newer glass Supra with all the mods and have yet to experience any flutter, even in a high speed dive although I admit I never put it in a vertical full speed dive from 1000 ft. Come to think of it I dont even do that w/my double/triple carbon slope planes!
Walter

[tonyestep]

[QUOTE=glderguy]...I dont even do that w/my double/triple carbon slope planes!
-------------------
Well, it's probably not the smartest thing to do, but it's kinda fun. When you pull up, you can keep climbing from treetop height all the way back to launch height, which is neat to watch. The noise it makes adds to the effect.

BTW, to bring this back to the point of this thread, rumor has it that Glauco found the windy-air plane of his dreams.

[Glauco]

Tony is correct, I ordered an Espada R from Skip Miller and will explain why.

First I was already a little biased towards the R since last year from watching Burnoski flying his. I also liked the way he launched the R on contests and even on a bungee. At the masters I watched the best launch I have ever seen. This plane flown by Paul Sherman kept going up and up. Once he landed I learned it was a Espada R.
It is a plane that handles the wind well but is also light for more everyday flying in case I need it for that.
Jaro construction and attention to details is top notch and since I'm extremely picky about details I know I'll be happy.
I wanted a two piece wing and there is nothing easier than that. Just plug the wings, stabs and go fly.

Should mention the Stratos 6 was a big contender on my list. The only point against it was the weight once compared to the Espada but if I'm going to ballast them anyway is not a big issue. On favor of the Stratos 6 is that it is readily available from Bob at soaringusa.com and I've heard he provides great customer services.

Thanks everyone for your help on this thread.

[onemetre]

It was related to me that some good pilots at the WSM with perfects would have flown their fazers had they had them available. Evidently they weren't brought.

Rob

[tonyestep]

One who did bring a Fazer was Ben Clerx. He flew it to the flyoffs and, if I recall right, 4th place. As Glauco can attest, it thermaled in the wind better than a ballasted Pike Superior. Randy McCleave also brought one but I think he flew something else instead.

I timed Rich Burnoski on one of his flyoff rounds, and Cody on one of his. In their expert hands, the Espadas were splendid.