All Robbe @ 20% Off!!!

[Kmot]

Ikarus USA is having a sale!

http://www.ikarus-modellbau.de/onlineshop/usa/index.php?sid=aa901c5650b063452efa6c160732b63c

[Tug Guy]

Sigh Here I sit writing a check to the IRS instead of being able to take advantage of the sale. Its a conspiracy I tell ya.

Don

[green-boat]

I looked it over but could not find how long it was good till, any idea.

[smart_racer]

Wow, and they even ship to Canada. 20% may just cover the exchange rate...ouch!

[u163665]

So, Kmot, what are you buying?

[Kmot]

Copper piping for my house! :o

[smart_racer]

Copper piping for my house! :o
Are plumbing supplies 20% off too?

[Aerominded]

Copper piping for my house! :o

replacing galvanized piping?

[green-boat]

With the prices of copper so high, have you considered using PEX tubing.

[toesup]

Copper piping for my house!

Seems like a fair swap... although whats your house like?... :p

[Aerominded]

With the prices of copper so high, have you considered using PEX tubing.

PEX tubing?

I've heard that CA just made it legal to use all PVC piping... one of the last states to do so...

[Kmot]

I have galvanized pipes. Plastic pipe was tried several years ago, and apparently was a big disaster. Many homes are suffering from it today, and it is being replaced with copper from what I read in my research.

I have the 'classic' symptoms of galvanized piping going bad (45 years old). Low pressure in some areas, low flow in some areas, staining on the wall where the rusty pipe is ready to crumble, etc. I feel the time is nigh, because at any moment a pipe will rupture and if my wife and I are not at home to shut off the main valve, major damage and expense is looming ahead.

My house is 2800 sq. ft., three bathrooms, laundry, etc. It is going to take 3-5 days including patching the drywall. The cost to repipe is $7000. That's a lot of model boats! :(

[smart_racer]

Maintaining houses are fun, good to do the work now, before there is a real problem. I just had to replace my heating oil tank, because your insurance will not cover you if your tank is over 20yrs. old and there is a leak/problem.

[der kapitan]

I have galvanized pipes.
My house is 2800 sq. ft., three bathrooms, laundry, etc. It is going to take 3-5 days including patching the drywall. The cost to repipe is $7000. That's a lot of model boats! :(

Wow! 2800 square feet, that's a LOT of house, Kmot---. :) Ours is less than half that, but then we have a partly built-out basement that adds a bit to the footage.

We bought it as a 14 year old fixer-upper that the previous owners had really run down pretty badly, :eek: but the price was very right. ;) And it has copper plumbing throughout---. :D

[Tug Guy]

Could you be more specific on the disaster? Most new homes today are having the PVC style plumbing installed. I thought it was approved by all states now? Is there something we should be aware of with this product?

Don



Plastic pipe was tried several years ago, and apparently was a big disaster. Many homes are suffering from it today, and it is being replaced with copper from what I read in my research.

:(

[der kapitan]

Could you be more specific on the disaster? Most new homes today are having the PVC style plumbing installed. I thought it was approved by all states now? Is there something we should be aware of with this product?

Don

Don, PVC has been approved in all states now, but some lenders have been known to frown on the use of it. :(

Plastic plumbing has a high rate of expansion and contraction, and as such,
it can literally "flex" itself to death, if not installed with enough room to move.
You can actually hear the pipes move in a sink or bathtub drain line, when the cool pipe is suddenly draining a tub of hot water, and "creaks" or "pops" in its mountings.

It may be a cheap way out, but will cost you in the long run, like a water pipe rupturing while you're away---. :eek:

[Aerominded]

Re: the cheap way out, :censored: , sounds like even our "RTR" houses are throw-away, now! :rolleyes:

[Kmot]

Some things I found:

POSITION STATEMENT ON ALTERNATIVE PLASTIC PIPE MATERIAL
Cal-Coast Repiping will not install alternative plastic piping due to:
A. Lack of Manufactures warranties.
B. Toxic Hazard in fires.
C. Competitive plastics manufactures do not produce the exact same formula.
D. Incompatibility with products such as "Pipe Insulation, WD-40 Lubricant, Roofing Tar, Fiber Oils (i.e. crisco, mazola), 3-M Fire Barrier."

PB piping systems have a very high incidence of failure, not from the pipe itself, but from fitting problems. PB pipe has been prohibited under the Uniform Plumbing Code but it is still listed as approved for both supply and distribution piping under the International Residential Code.


Fitting
The primary concern with PB plumbing has been the fittings, which connect the 10-foot or shorter sections of pipe. The original acetal resin-based fittings are suspected of deteriorating when exposed to chlorinated water. In addition, crimp rings, which apply pressure to the PB pipe seal the PB to the fitting, made this section of the system more susceptible to failure when the plastics deteriorated. The industry first blamed all problems on faulty installation, but lately has acknowledged that the plastic fittings have been a major problem. The original barbed insert fittings made with an acetal resin and the type of fitting and crimp rings used have undergone numerous changes. The original aluminum crimp rings were changed to copper; the crimping tool was redesigned several times; and the acetal fittings were replaced with the copper and brass fittings that are still in use today.



Piping
Though the primary focus of the debate has revolved around the fittings, PB pipes have also undergone modification to produce a stronger, more durable product. Premature deterioration and failure of the pipe has occurred.

There are many theories on the cause of the premature deterioration and failure of the pipe. One theory is that when the piping is stored outdoors for a period of time or exposed to sunlight after installation, ultraviolet (UV) radiation from sunlight adversely alters the chemistry of the plastic, causing deterioration. The second theory for the premature deterioration and failure of the pipe is a reaction to oxidants (e.g. chlorine) in the drinking water. However, no studies or information can support those theories at this time. The manufacturers, even today, continue to maintain that the failures with the PB tubing are due to installation errors and/or misuse rather than product failure.

There are lots of arguments about using plastic piping. Lots of issues about premature failure, health hazards, etc. There are no arguments about using copper, except the price!

[Aerominded]

Well, if I can't pour leftover crisco down the drain... :rolleyes: ;)

When I thought I heard PVC was approved in CA a couple of weeks ago, I have to admit, I kind of cringed- Make mine copper too-

[Kmot]

There is new plastic piping called PEX. Supposed to be the 'new' thing.

Well, I don't expect we will ever have to re-pipe again in our lifetimes, using copper. Oh, and if we do, the contractor we are using gives a lifetime written warranty that covers labor and materials. And we can transfer the warranty if we ever actually sell our home.

[Tug Guy]

Our water comes from our well. It is very acidic water so much so it will eventually dissolve copper pipe, which we currently have. I had to replace a small section of it a few weeks ago due to the effect of the water. It actually eats away at the inside of the pipe. This appears to be a common problem in this area. That gave us notice we needed to do something with the current system.
If we repiped in copper we would also need a water treatment sytem to neutralize the water. Those alone are $3500.00. Because of that we were considering going to a plastic piping. It is good to know the pitfalls as you researched.

Don

[Rex R]

pvc(&cpvc) work well in domestic water systems. some time back some devlopers/builders were cutting corners and using some cheap plastic pipe(iirc some type of styrene) that turned excessively brittle over a period of time(5-10yrs).

[Aerominded]

Our water comes from our well. It is very acidic water so much so it will eventually dissolve copper pipe, which we currently have. I had to replace a small section of it a few weeks ago due to the effect of the water. It actually eats away at the inside of the pipe. This appears to be a common problem in this area. That gave us notice we needed to do something with the current system.
If we repiped in copper we would also need a water treatment sytem to neutralize the water. Those alone are $3500.00. Because of that we were considering going to a plastic piping. It is good to know the pitfalls as you researched.

Don

:eek: a treament system might be a good idea! If your water is dissolving your house's copper pipes, think about what it could be doing to your pipes! :eek:

[bigford]

the big thing on long island is a cloudy white plastic pipe
might be that pex the odd thing is the fitting is a slip over
pressure type thing. the tool is $500.+. i had the plumber install
a section in my house where we installed a door they scraped out
a sectoin of pink foam inbetwen the foundation and the slab ran
the tube and sprayed in new foam

[Tug Guy]

:D "Bout the same as a vintage wine I hope.

Don



:eek: a treament system might be a good idea! If your water is dissolving your house's copper pipes, think about what it could be doing to your pipes! :eek:

[Tug Guy]

Pvc & cpvc isn't the same stuff as the PB piping Kmot is referring to?

Don


pvc(&cpvc) work well in domestic water systems. some time back some devlopers/builders were cutting corners and using some cheap plastic pipe(iirc some type of styrene) that turned excessively brittle over a period of time(5-10yrs).

[Aerominded]

:D "Bout the same as a vintage wine I hope.

Don

Mmmmm, a fine Cab will do no harm! :)

[Rex R]

in a word, no. the pvc & cpvc are completely different plastics than the stuff Kmot was refering to, that stuff was more like a cheap garden hose(hosepipe). while I wouldn't suggest pvc for vent pipes(transmits noise far to readily) I would have no problems in other applications, provided that it is installed correctly. heh I've even heard of an instance where plastic pipe saved a building from serious damage from fire... seems the fire started under a pvc supply line... by the time the fire dept got there it was mostly out all they had to do is turn the water off :)

[Tug Guy]

My thoughts exactly. At least that is what I tell the wife. :D

Don


Mmmmm, a fine Cab will do no harm! :)

[Tug Guy]

Kmot was talking about the flexible hose type piping that uses clamps on fittings? I have seen that in industrial labs. I didn't know anyone considered using that in a house. We have been getting bids on a cpvc install.

Don




in a word, no. the pvc & cpvc are completely different plastics than the stuff Kmot was refering to, that stuff was more like a cheap garden hose(hosepipe). while I wouldn't suggest pvc for vent pipes(transmits noise far to readily) I would have no problems in other applications, provided that it is installed correctly. heh I've even heard of an instance where plastic pipe saved a building from serious damage from fire... seems the fire started under a pvc supply line... by the time the fire dept got there it was mostly out all they had to do is turn the water off :)

[green-boat]

Here is some info on PEX tubing and suppliers. One of my local Lowes now carries it.

http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html

http://www.pexsupply.com/

http://www.pexsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=31&brandid=

http://www.plumbinggoods.com/

I know of a guy that used PEX on his new house of 5000sq. ft. He saved thousands over copper and had it all plumbed in 2 days vs. 9 days for copper.

[Kmot]

Posted before I saw green-boats links.

[Tug Guy]

I didn't see anything there that told me how much water pressure the piping would take. Do you know off hand? we run ours at 45 PSI. Thanks for this information.
Don



Here is some info on PEX tubing and suppliers. One of my local Lowes now carries it.

http://www.ppfahome.org/pex/faqpex.html

http://www.pexsupply.com/

http://www.pexsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=31&brandid=

http://www.plumbinggoods.com/

I know of a guy that used PEX on his new house of 5000sq. ft. He saved thousands over copper and had it all plumbed in 2 days vs. 9 days for copper.

[green-boat]

Here you go http://www.pexsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=517&brandid=

45 PSI is no problem. I started looking into this years ago for use as a underfloor, in-between joist radiant heating idea. The Europeans have been doing it for years with no problems.

[Kmot]

Yikes! My walls are getting ripped open right now! It's kinda strange, but there is an 'odor' from it. I'ts not a bad odor, but I suppose it is the smell of 45 year old air getting let out of the walls.

[Aerominded]

Yikes! My walls are getting ripped open right now! It's kinda strange, but there is an 'odor' from it. I'ts not a bad odor, but I suppose it is the smell of 45 year old air getting let out of the walls.

Any empty beer bottles or the like hidden in those walls? :p ;)

( :o not that I know anybody who would have done anything like that when they were sheetrocking... "dude, like, time capsule!" :p )

[Shaun Hendricks]

My friends new house was done with the PEX tubing. I'm still leery about those joints where it goes from tube to hard plumbing. Just little compression fit rings and such. Our pressure around here is very high. It is almost 120psi native and we have to run pressure regulators to get it down to 85psi. If a regulator fails and 120psi hits those compression joints.... it could be a mess.

So, I'm still leery of the PEX system but I can see its advantages. I'm just hoping that it has the durability of copper and doesn't 'blow' at the joints- images of an uncontrolled fire hose come to mind. :eek:

[Kmot]

Bugha!! :eek:

What was interesting, was that after opening up the walls we saw copper pipe at the shower controls. As is typical with this old house, repairs had been made in bits and pieces, helter skelter over the years. Right next to the copper, is galvanized pipe. Anyway, the first day is done.

Are we still talking about a Robbe sale at Ikarus? :p

Just a couple examples of the openings in the walls.

[Aerominded]

Robbe sale, what? :confused: Piping, I think...

:p ;) ;) :)

This thread went even further astray than the "cruising" one! :eek:

British cars with copper pipes anyone? :rolleyes: ;)

[green-boat]

Cash all that copper in and buy up the Robbe stuff.

[tugboater]

Well, it seems as though Robbe's new sale is also including Copper piping! Geez Kmot, bought it all just a bit too early. Haha.

[green-boat]

Sorry if this off track again but I just had to post the following. This is the stuff to stay FAR away from, polybutylene. I had a house years ago with this in it. I started having leaks from fittings, clamps and tubing that would crack and let loose after 3 years.

http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

and the class action lawsuit that goes alog with it.

http://www.spencerclass.com/notice.htm

[jeepers1940]

Hello Green-boat,
We have been in our house for almost 9 months now. The house is about 10 1/2 years old.
After reading your post, I got a flashlight and looked under our kitchen sink. Sure enough, the hot and cold water feeds are by sections of dull gray "Qest" polybutylene tubing connected by brass fittings. Ouch!
I guess tomorrow I'll have to go on a "search and discover" mission throughout the house to try to get some idea of the extent of our exposure to this problem.
No obvious problems from what I can see preliminarily, but forewarned is forearmed.
Thanks (I think) for the warning. I hope you other readers are luckier.
Bill

[green-boat]

Let's hope that the rest of your fittings are brass or copper. It was the Acetal (plastic) fittings that were letting loose first then the tubing. Oh how I remember the sound of water running and why does it happen in the middle of the night or when you are not home.

[Kmot]

I believe I saw that article before too. Another reason we did not go with any kind of plastic.

We originally had galvanized in our lawn system. We now have PVC in our lawn sprinkler system. How long will that stuff last underground?

[green-boat]

I can't say how long it will last underground but with a lawn sprinkler system, it is not under continous pressure. Outside you have yearly freeze/ thaw cycles putting strain on glue joints, inside the temp stays pretty constant. Here in the Midwest, most lawn systems are done in the black Poly tubing with clamp rings.

[Aerominded]

I can't say how long it will last underground but with a lawn sprinkler system, it is not under continous pressure. Outside you have yearly freeze/ thaw cycles putting strain on glue joints, inside the temp stays pretty constant. Here in the Midwest, most lawn systems are done in the black Poly tubing with clamp rings.

Freeze/thaw? What's that? Do you know what he is talking about Kmot? :p ;) :) :p

(hee hee!)

[green-boat]

I didn't forget that Tom was in Ca. I didn't want to single him out.

[Aerominded]

Hee hee, I'm just teasing! ;) the freeze / thaw cycle is an important consideration, for sure! good advice! :)

[Kmot]

Freeze/thaw? What's that? Do you know what he is talking about Kmot? :p ;) :) :p

(hee hee!)
Yeah, I sure do! That is what we used to have to do to our refrigerators twice a year. But that was a long time ago. All the refrigerators for the last several years have been 'frost free' types. :D

[Tug Guy]

So that is what PB is. Thanks for letting us know. Definitely not the stuff you want behind your house walls.

Don





Sorry if this off track again but I just had to post the following. This is the stuff to stay FAR away from, polybutylene. I had a house years ago with this in it. I started having leaks from fittings, clamps and tubing that would crack and let loose after 3 years.

http://www.polybutylene.com/poly.html

and the class action lawsuit that goes alog with it.

http://www.spencerclass.com/notice.htm

[der kapitan]

So that is what PB is. Thanks for letting us know. Definitely not the stuff you want behind your house walls.

Don

Amen on that, and any other kind of plastic plumbing. Kmot is smart in spending the extra money on the copper.

Freeze/thaw? Here we've had the "freeze" part for well over a month, with no signs of "thaw"---.

[Kmot]

We had our water shut off from 9AM till 4:30PM today and my wife was having a fit without a toilet. :p

We have the water back on and in at least one place I know of that had really low pressure it kicks butt right now! :D

[Kmot]

Ahhhhhh................................ :p

First reeeeaaally good shower in 11 years in this gyp joint! :D

[der kapitan]

Ahhhhhh................................ :p

First reeeeaaally good shower in 11 years in this gyp joint! :D

If you haven't had a shower in 11 years, I imagine your friends will be VERY happy---. ;) :p :D

[Tug Guy]

Friends? Heck I bet the wife is happy!

Don



If you haven't had a shower in 11 years, I imagine your friends will be VERY happy---. ;) :p :D

[Kmot]

:p ;) :D

[Aerominded]

If you haven't had a shower in 11 years, I imagine your friends will be VERY happy---. ;) :p :D

Hee hee, the Hansen Dam Irregulars will never be the same... :p :p ;) :p

Funny how the little things like water pressure make the costs of projects like this worth it! you are probably asking yourself why you waited so long! :)

[Kmot]

Yep!

Another significant change: The hot water to the kitchen sink. Used to have to run the hot water tap wide open and wait about three minutes before the water got what you could call 'hot'. Now, it takes about 30-45 seconds. I also noticed that because the new pipes running in the attic have been covered with insulation, the hot water that was previously run stays quite hot in the pipe. I noticed that several hours later I turned on the hot water in the kitchen and it was still decently hot, and I just let it flow and after a while it cooled off. Like the insulated portion ran out and the new uninsulated water came through the tap. Shortly afterward the water got hot again because it was the 'new' hot water coming through.

More: The water in the master bathroom has so much pressure now if I open both hot and cold taps fully it literally splashes out of the sink! Never did that before!

Flushing a toilet, it takes 30 seconds to refill. Used to take about a minute or so.

So yes it is nice. But we will be a lot happier when the holes in the walls are patched!

[Tug Guy]

I'll alert the media! :)

Don

[Kmot]

Thanks Don! :D

lol...