Another winch build and modification

[jbrandon]

I have exchanged ideas with rogerflies on many occasions and truly admire his engineering, fabrication and design theories. He has inspired me to take the standard Ford long shaft powered winch to a new level. As with any good discussion we do disagree on a couple of points, minor though they are. But disagreements most always lead to new inspiration!

He inspired me to build a winch with an outboard bearing supported drum and to use a clutch to release all drag when using a retriever. To use the clutch the drum must be supported on both ends, thus this exercise in rebuilding my winch. Once proven I will attempt the clutch effort.

Long story short, here is a gallery of the rebuild session (http://theshope.net/hobby.aspx).

As a side note he made me buy and new (old) lathe because I felt inadequate with the one I had! I have to justify it somehow!

[ThermalBuster]

JB,

If I understand you correctly the clutch may be a bad idea. When retrieving there must be a braking action to keep the winch spool from over running and creating a snarl. Retrievers are very hard on winches because they spin them backwards so fast and require that the brake stop them very quickly to keep them from over running. Current belt braking methods work well but it sure doesn't look pretty while its happening!

Hope this helps.

[Miami Mike]

From http://theshope.net/Winch%20Redux/pages/salilplane%20winch%20043.htm:

I tried the sound option but it makes a sound every time the foot pedal is pressed and I found it very annoying when launching so I removed it.jbrandon,

if you like, I'll be happy to work with you to figure out what you're doing wrong here, but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't give people the impression that my winch solenoid safety buzzer normally behaves like this, because it doesn't. As long as your two solenoids energize and deenergize together, there will never be any sound from the buzzer. If there is sound, it means that for some reason one of your solenoids is staying closed longer than the other one is, which is normally an indication of a potential problem.

What kind of foot switch circuit are you using to control the solenoids?

http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/index.html

[jbrandon]

ThermalBuster: There is still a brake band on the drum and it would be engaged when the line is slack. The clutch works as rogerflies has done it and done it very well. He has links to a video of the clutch and brake at work. Maybe he will chime in here and post it. My problem is just the engineering to mount with out cutting the motor shaft. Been thinking hard on that one.

Miami Mike: In no way did I imply your sound option did not work. At the time I did not even know you had designed the light and buzzer option. I did this one on my own before I found Cal’s site and ordered a kit. Maybe you should have put this in an email. Check this out (http://www.theshope.net/Winch%20Redux/pages/salilplane%20winch%20046.htm). Once I had the kit I found the error in my ways. Every winch I build from now on will have at least the sound option. Not too sure the lights are all the visible (but does give an indication of which solenoid had failed) but you cannot dismiss the sound although I wish it was a little louder. One thing I notice about flyers – all they are interested in is getting up the line, they will not look at the winch for a light, proven fact.

The foot switch is 2 -15A micro switches wired in series – never had one fail.

The kit I purchased from Cal was installed on a winch and last fall we were out stress testing the winch (bearings and drum) by doing repeated hard launches. We took a break as some spectators had come over and I powered off the winch. When we were ready to resume flying I tuned the winch back on and the buzzer sounded. We had not heard or not remembered the buzzer before taking a break, not the buzzers fault. Now everything was new, maybe 50 launches total on the winch. Got the meter out and the front solenoid was stuck. Tapped it and it released but did not trust it and it is long gone.

While you are here something I would like to try is to get the light and buzzer on or in the foot pedal where they would surely be more noticeable. Preferably mount the LES’s on the solenoid and have the buzzer in/on the foot pedal.

[rogerflies]

Here's the link to the video of two versions of the clutch winch:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/winchman/Videos/th_Winch-1.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/1003/winchman/Videos/?action=view&current=Winch-1.flv)

The red winch has a solenoid-operated belt brake on the clutch rotor. The black winch has a one-way bearing on the outer end of the motor shaft.

As far as mounting the clutch on the Ford longshaft, I'd leave the shaft like it is. Make the adapter for the clutch rotor to fit on the end of the shaft, and drive it with the 1/4" pin. Support the clutch rotor on the outboard bearing. The clutch coil can be mounted to the support for the outboard bearing. The drum will have bronze bushings that ride on the motor shaft, so it can move sideways as the clutch engages.

There are several ways to stop the drum after the retrieve. You can put a one-way bearing in the clutch rotor beside the outboard support bearing. Engaging the clutch will stop the drum since the rotor won't be able to turn in the reverse direction.

You could also put a solenoid operated belt brake on the clutch rotor or use the "plugging switch" I described in an earlier post, which applies power the motor just long enough to stop the drum. Both of these require the clutch to be engaged, which takes advantage of the inertia of the motor armature.

The advantage of all of these arrangements is that there is no modification to the motor itself. You'll be able to swap it out without having to do any machining.

I've already proven that each of these braking systems will work. The thing I haven't done is use a clutch winch in conjunction with a retriever. There's no reason it won't work, but it'll require a modification to the control circuit so the drum brake is armed when the retriever is in operation. I'll be happy to help you figure that part out.

Roger

[Miami Mike]

Miami Mike: In no way did I imply your sound option did not work. At the time I did not even know you had designed the light and buzzer option. I did this one on my own before I found Cal’s site and ordered a kit.That's interesting. Do you mean that you invented a sound circuit of your own to detect a stuck solenoid? I'm interested in hearing how you did it. You still need to clarify that on your site at http://theshope.net/Winch%20Redux/pages/salilplane%20winch%20043.htm though, since most readers will interpret "the sound option" to mean my circuit.

For clarification, I didn't invent the two-LED light circuit. That was the work of Andrew E. Mileski, who describes it on his web page at http://isoar.ca/~andrewm/rc/winch/. What I invented is what you and Cal Posthuma are calling the "sound option", but I've actually named the Winch Solenoid Safety Buzzer (http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/).

On March 19, 2005, Cal Posthuma emailed me asking for permission to sell kits to build my circuit, and I told him I didn't mind. I've never actually seen one of his kits though.Once I had the kit I found the error in my ways. Every winch I build from now on will have at least the sound option. Not too sure the lights are all the visible (but does give an indication of which solenoid had failed) but you cannot dismiss the sound although I wish it was a little louder. One thing I notice about flyers – all they are interested in is getting up the line, they will not look at the winch for a light, proven fact.Yes, that's the whole point of the buzzer. I don't know what part Cal Posthuma is supplying with his kits, but the buzzer I recommend on my web page (http://www.vvsss.com/buzzer/[/url) seems easily loud enough for everyone to hear during winch launching at a typical flying site.

While you are here something I would like to try is to get the light and buzzer on or in the foot pedal where they would surely be more noticeable. Preferably mount the LES’s on the solenoid and have the buzzer in/on the foot pedal.LEDs are not going to be very noticeable no matter where they are when you're outside in the sunshine, but they don't need to be. They only need to tell you which solenoid is stuck after you already know there's a problem. In a contest, many fliers won't know what the lights mean anyway, but a strange sound will certainly get their attention.

If you really need a louder buzzer, you can use practically any 12 volt noise-making device you can find. The contacts of the relay I recommend are rated at up to 1 amp.

[Mark Miller]

If I recall correctly the LSF used Cal's LED setup on all of the NATS winches the AMA has. They were all new this past year. I seem to remember them working great except some of the LED's apparently burned out because of a reverse voltage flow when the line was brought back by the golf carts. It seems the residual magnetism in the field shoes wwould put enough into the armature windings to turn the motor into a generator. It did not affect the operation of the ninches but the saftey LED's would not work. I didn't know there were buzzers too.

Mark Miller

Mark

[jbrandon]

That's interesting. Do you mean that you invented a sound circuit of your own to detect a stuck solenoid? I'm interested in hearing how you did it. You still need to clarify that on your site at http://theshope.net/Winch%20Redux/pages/salilplane%20winch%20043.htm though, since most readers will interpret "the sound option" to mean my circuit.
Disclaimer put in the description of the picture. And yes, in this case I did “invent” (your word) this sound option however it did not work the way I wanted it to or the way yours does. I did not use a relay and after giving it try abandoned the project, found Cal’s site and bought the kit. I will not respond to this issue anymore online as it seems all you want to do is pick a fight.

As a reference I have been flying sailplanes for almost 40 years. I’ve seen a lot of things and people come and go. In the 80’s we had a winch solenoid weld and pulled the plane into the ground. It was not my winch but I did run home and start thinking about how to avoid this in the future. My solution was to use two solenoids, check them every flying day and replace them yearly. Did I invent this, no, I just found a different way of doing the same thing. Then we were using the cheap Ford solenoids and they did fail often and usually with disastrous results. You always kept a hammer handy close to the winch so you could pound on the solenoid if it did stick, this would usually work but not every time. And today if you were to fly with my equipment you will still find that same hammer close by. Even way back then I had lights on the solenoids to indicate their condition but no sound. The lights were on all the time and only went out when energized but still gave an indication of the condition of the solenoids.

[Miami Mike]

Disclaimer put in the description of the picture.You also changed "the sound option" to "a sound option", which provides additional clarification.

Thank you, that's all I wanted. I certainly never wanted to "pick a fight".

[superskeg]

I don’t know who or when the first solenoid warning lights and buzzers appeared but it was a long time ago probably by multiple “inventors” at multiple venues to address a common problem. I remember many years ago discussing the problem that some senior pilots could not hear piezo buzzers and the need to switch to mechanical buzzers. In 2003 I sent a solenoid buzzer schematic in a private email that was subsequently posted here http://www.bayrc.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=227&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=mccann&start=15

Kudos to Cal and everyone who contributed for making the solenoid warning kits available.

[Miami Mike]

Interesting link! It looks like they were close back then, and they might have gotten it if they had only worked on it a little more.

I added a post of my own to the thread:

http://bayrc.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=27619&sid=2deebcdd87c7f05ae2084e97258cafda#27619