Phoenix with Futaba problem

[Cheekers]

I was wondering of anyone had this problem.

When I bought Phoenix last month, I used a brand new Tower Hobbies 6XM controller (a rebranded Futaba 6EXAS) with it. After a few days of use, the radio died quietly while playing Phoenix. No smoke. No noise. Just stopped working and refused to power on.

I assumed I had a bad radio, so I returned the radio to TH in exchange for another one. Took a while to get the replacement back, but when it arrived, I tested it with a real plane I was trimming out and it worked fine. Then I decided to hook it back up to my PC so I could play Phoenix again. It worked normally for a few minutes, then died too.

My system works fine in all other respects with all other USB devices that I use. It's a very good motherboard (Asus) with a very good power supply (Antec), so I doubt that it could be the PC.

Phoenix was kind enough to invite me to send back the interface cable so they could see if there was a problem with it. They claim that if they find a problem with it, they will pay to have my Tx repaired/replaced. Here's hoping that they do!

Anyone else have similar problems with Phoenix and their radios?

[Malc C]

I'm not 100% sure, but I beleive they had a problem with a batch of dongles in the early days, which were recalled... But I'm not sure it was that serious that it caused the radio to be damaged....

[Cheekers]

Well, when I finally do get my dongle back, I won't be using Phoenix with my TH transmitter with it. I hear they are designing a dummy Tx interface so you can use a USB device like the E-Sky. If they don't do that, then I will probably stop using Phoenix altogether.

In between the death of my first Transmitter and the demise of the second one, I have been using Aerofly Pro Deluxe and been having a ball.

[Ade]

i seriously doubt phoenix is causing your transmitter to die. Are you taking the xtal out of the tx? I have seen a few 7c's die for no reason.

there are thousands of people out there using phoenix with their own TX with no problem.

as suggested send your dongle back to phoenix for a check out. Im sure its just a coincedence.

very early dongles had an issue where they would be killed by a quirk of the JR 2610 (aka 6102) hardware no damage to the transmitter just a dongle that wouldnt see the tx. These were replaced very quickly by phoenix.

Ade

[Malc C]

Moral of this story: By JR equipment :D :D

[Cheekers]

i seriously doubt phoenix is causing your transmitter to die.

It wasn't just one transmitter. We are talking about 2, separate, brand new transmitters that both died while attached to the Phoenix interface cable.

[Ade]

i know, but i also know a little about electronics. Theres only 2 connections in the lead to the phoenix dongle. even if you connected the 2 wires to eachother to create a short the 2 wires together its just a signal cable so shouldnt damage anything.

did you take the xtal out of the tx when you were using it on the sim?

send it back and we will know for sure.

Ade

[Malc C]

Following up on Ade's post, most interfaces use just two wires (well one wire with a screen around it) - the screen is connected to ground and the other to the PPM signal being sent OUT from the transmitter. These interfaces get their power from the USB port which can only supply 5v at a max 500mA, the PPM signal FROM the transmitter can be anywhere between this and the 9.6v battery pack, so even IF the supply voltage found its way to the wire connected to the TX it is below the level that could do damage.

When you said it died, do you mean is simply won't power up, powers up but won't transmit, powers up but won't transmit or work with a simulator.. ?? If it powers up but won't transmit, and the radio has a plug in module, try replacing that...

The other thing is that the shop could of been supplied a faulty batch so all there stock could be subject to the same issue. Maybe you should send the interface back to Phoenix and IF it turns out to be a problem with the interface they would be responsible enough to cover the cost of a replacement.

[Cheekers]

Ade, on the first Tx, I didn't have the crystal out; the manual recommends it but doesn't require it. It did work in that configuration for several hours longer than the second one did. I have sent it back to Phoenix. I also know a little about electronics; I build tube amplifiers as a hobby. Yes, USB can only supply 5v and the Tx battery pack is at a much higher voltage, but the trainer ports on this Tx, a computer radio, could possibly be interfacing with onboard components that operate at much lower voltages. For example, your stereo might plug into 110v or 220v AC, but try plugging a 5v source into the Line In. For that matter, try plugging a 5v source into an iPod's headphone jack...

In any event, after the second failure, I used a DVM to measure voltage out of the Phoenix dongle and found no more than a volt here or there. Same with my Aerofly dongle.

Malc, when i say it "died" I mean it won't power up at all. When plugged into the charger, the charger's LED lights up, but the Tx itself shows not a single sign of life. I've tried disconnecting the battery and leaving it off for hours. Still no go.

Is it plausible that this Tx was part of a bad batch? Yes. But the second one was working fine for several hours while disconnected from the sim dongle and both failed only while connected to the Phoenix sim dongle.

[Malc C]

This is really strange, as normally IF you plug something in and its over voltage or shorting out something you would expect it to blow there and then... not hours after working perfectly.

I take it the battery holds a charge if removed from the TX and charged seperatly. Not saying you are overlooking something, but it might be the charger that's faulty and / or the battery pack - Did you plug in the charger whilst the interface was connected to the trainer port ? - I have seen on several sites (Reflex comes to mind) that they don't advise powering the TX from the wall charger when using the interface.

I think this one would of even baffle Sherlock Holmes :)

[Ade]

this is all guess work none of us knows how the dongle works. lets leave it until phoenix have looked at it.

Ade

[Malc C]

this is all guess work none of us knows how the dongle works.

Ade

Oh.. I have a fair Idea ;)

My guess is that its based on a Microchip, probably a 16C745 or the newer 18F2550, a handfull of descrete componets. Whats not known is the protocol encryption used within the assemble code... which wouldn't cause this problem.

Given the fact that we've not seen loads of others jump in with the "that happened to me" I would guess that this is either a faulty batch of transmitters, or a faulty dongle in which the hardware is damaging the TX's, rather than a general issue.

Cheekers, contact Phoenix, request that they cover your expenses and return the dongle and the TX to them for investigation. If its found to be an issue with the dongle then I would suggest they replace the TX and dongle with no additional charge to you.

[Cheekers]

Already did, thanks! ... Although in this day and age I'd be a bit surprised if I found a manufacturer honorable enough to say "we found a flaw in our hardware and will compensate you completely for any damage and losses," particularly when those losses include:

* A brand new transmitter
* Several weeks of not being able to use said transmitter with my real rc plane
* Several weeks of not being able to play a sim I paid for

[Malc C]

True.. the only option left is to put this experience behind you and move on by getting the transmitter replaced (possibly with a different brand or model) and invest in a different simulator if you feel the Phoenix dongle was to blame.

[wsn]

Forgive me for interupting here but I have to add some experience from my side which obviously is on the same battlefield: Futaba radios and interfaces for sims. Malc, you you from the PCB tech side - tell the people what the DSC socket is please. It's nothing more than an bypass PPM signal on any kind of voltage drop (depending on brand and type) at a very low current. To what we all know, there is no way that any harm can be done by shorting that signal line.

BUT: What happens in the Futaba student plug - or in a sim connection? We (the genuine futaba student cable AND all sim interface makers) have that funny bridge to shorten the HF module and prevent the tx emitting a HF signal. That's why you normally don't have to unplug your crystal.

Having a deep look onto some Futaba PCB's showing this kind of trouble, you will find a smelly diode that is writing "malfunction" the indian way with 4 clouds of black smoke. That's the one blowing when you plug in the sim cable. The funny thing is that this diode will be blowing as well when you plug-in the genuine Futaba student cable!

We all know Futaba. A giant japanese company making most of their money with industrial displays. R/C for them is only 2% of their biz and 0.5% of their attention. The PCB design as you have it now is based on technology designed some 8-5 years back. At that time they were experiencing that only a very few percent of their radios were ever used in a student-teacher wired connection. They had no chance to find that mal dimensioned diode. Since quite a few years, the Futaba's are widely used with simulators and only then this mistake pops up.

Just a rough idea ...

[Malc C]

Malc, you you from the PCB tech side - tell the people what the DSC socket is please. It's nothing more than an bypass PPM signal on any kind of voltage drop (depending on brand and type) at a very low current. To what we all know, there is no way that any harm can be done by shorting that signal line.

I can confirm (more by accident ;) ) that taking the PPM signal to ground won't have an adverse effect.

BUT: What happens in the Futaba student plug - or in a sim connection? We (the genuine futaba student cable AND all sim interface makers) have that funny bridge to shorten the HF module and prevent the tx emitting a HF signal. That's why you normally don't have to unplug your crystal....... you will find a smelly diode that is writing "malfunction" the indian way with 4 clouds of black smoke. That's the one blowing when you plug in the sim cable. The funny thing is that this diode will be blowing as well when you plug-in the genuine Futaba student cable!.

Thanks for pointing that out.. I simply recommend the connection to the PPM signal and ground for use with any DIY interface (as that is really all you need) and have always left the link out from the DIN plug.

So if it blows the diode with the genuine futaba student cable, then as this is technically a design fault, shouldn't Futaba replace Cheekers transmitter free of charge. The strange thing is though, given the estimated sales of Phoenix for use with Futaba equipment you would expect to see the forums flooded with people reporting that Phoenix killed their transmitters. Could it be that the diode blowing only occurs on certain models, or is Cheekers simply unlucky ?

[wsn]

" with Futaba equipment you would expect to see the forums flooded "

As I said, this is NOT a particular P-Prob, that refers to all sim interfaces - the dongled as well as the joystick interfaces if they are wired to match a Futaba using the bridge on 4+5 just like the Futaba student cable. Multiplex is using the same technology since 25 years and they never had the problem ... until they released the new Evo some 3 years back. Same thing - same prob - silently solved by MPX service.

I had a "manufacturer liability case" here in Germany. Same story. Who is responsible? The sime maker because he is inserting strange things. That story went endless between lawyers until in finally went to court. You should have seen the other lawyer going pale when I destroyed a brand new manufacturer sealed radio with the original and approved student cable. This end user was trying to charge me for the blown radio plus his 1/4 scale F3AX model which he lost when using his blown radio in the field.

[StarmanDXE]

Well, this is all deeply unsettling to me. I have a 7CAP on the way and was planning to use it for SIMs... I suppose that I'll be looking for other options now! Don't really feel like destroying my Tx :(

[Ade]

i know of a whole bunch of futabas working fine here on phoenix. 6, 7, 9 and 14mz all working fine.

very strange.

Ade

[Malc C]

Simple answer is to remove the shorting link inside the connector that plugs in from the sim, leaving just the PPM signal and GND connections just to be on the safe side

[wsn]

Come on, we are not talking about a mass problem, we are talking about something that CAN happen and it happens quite rarely. The sim community is a little more sensitive to this problem because 100% of their customers use radios but only some xx% of the radio customers use sims or student cables. The Futaba decision is as good as any other decision.

[StarmanDXE]

wsn:

I don't understand the meaning of your comment. Any chance you could clarify?

Thanks!

[Cheekers]

True.. the only option left is to put this experience behind you and move on by getting the transmitter replaced (possibly with a different brand or model) and invest in a different simulator if you feel the Phoenix dongle was to blame.

Already did that. Been using Aerofly and Clearview with my Esky controller.

I actually liked what little of Phoenix I did get to see ... too bad.

Futaba makes a $50 buddy box, I wonder if it'll work with my Phoenix dongle ...

[Ade]

got a link to that buddy box cheekers? i cant find it on the futaba website.

Ade

[Pinecone]

JR also has a buddy box, I asked Phoenix if it would work, but never got an answer.

And it took 3 tries to get an answer to my first question. Then they answered a couple of quick questions, then silence.

[Cheekers]

got a link to that buddy box cheekers? i cant find it on the futaba website.

Ade

I think this (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLV14) may be it.

Well, Phoenix has just responded to me telling me that they have found nothing wrong with my dongle after 24 hours of testing. :confused:

So I currently have no working radio for the airplanes I've just bought. And I still have no way of playing Pheonix right now (BTW, the second most expensive piece of software I have purchased in the last 18 months, the 1st being Aerofly, but that has proven to be well worth its purchase price). So far, trying to get into this hobby has been expensive and extremely frustrating. Perhaps I should quit while I'm ahead ... oh wait a minute, I NOT ahead; I'm down several hundred dollars and several weeks of my time.

[Ade]

if the dongles are ok, the transmitters are faulty. get them repaired under warrentee.

At least they failed on the sim and not when you were flying your pride and joy.

according to this it has a DSC port so will work just great with the phoenix.

http://www.futaba-rc.com/radios/futj40.html

its worth noting that its 4 channel so you wont be able to assign a switch for throttle hold.

Ade

[Malc C]

I had a "manufacturer liability case" here in Germany. Same story. Who is responsible? The sime maker because he is inserting strange things. That story went endless between lawyers until in finally went to court. You should have seen the other lawyer going pale when I destroyed a brand new manufacturer sealed radio with the original and approved student cable.

Come on, we are not talking about a mass problem, we are talking about something that CAN happen and it happens quite rarely.

Wolfgang, I'm a little confused (easily done :rolleyes: )

On one hand you state that this is not a mass or common problem, but on the other you show you had the confidence that taking a genuine manufactures part and pluging it in to a new transmitter would blow it and prove your case.

If it's not a common problem then how would you know that the shorting link in the cable would blow the TX, if it was not for the fact that its a common issue... Or are you a gamblim man and kept your fingers crossed when you plugged in the cable ;)

Cheekers,

No hobby is cheap.. last year my son wanted to take up fishing and seeing a kit for £30 I thought that it was an ideal low cost hobby... I would hate to calculate how much we've spent on extra bits and bobs, more rods, hooks etc. Its the same with this hobby, yes basic kits are fairly cheap, but you constantly add to it, have crashes, break things up and have these sort of issues where you would never actually resolve the issue as to what actually cause the TX to fail.

There are so many varibles here, the TX, the interface, the PC, maybe even the condition of the local power supply (spikes on the line) that could each have caused the TX or dongle to fail. - At the end of the day, like I said before, put it down to experience and seek an alternative (which you've done).

The one good thing this post has hi-lighted is the possible damage having that shorting link conencted can have.. Maybe sim manufactures will take note and leave it out for future batch runs - just to be on the safe side.