Looking for CNC Mill Part I

[balsaman]

I am using solid aluminum couplings.

It seems to me that my 486 computer won't work after all. I looked it up and it's only 20 mhz. Even tho CNCpro says a 25 mhz 486 should give out 5khz of pulses, it's telling me my max speed is .27 inches per minute. That's 1/4" per minute. I am not sure why. On my Plll 900, CNCpro says 180 inches per minute is not a prob. Now I would only run it at around 12, but I can live with .27! Someone care to enlighten me?

Eric

[William A]

I was about to toss out an old 5¼ floppy drive, when I noticed what appears to be some type of stepper motor in it.

Don't know if it would work in the stuff you guys are doing, but if you want it, drop me a line. I'll wait a few days before 'filing' it.

[PanzyPoof]

William A thanks for the offer! my guess it way too small for our use! got any tags on it.
funny thing is price on these motors:confused:
From scrap and dirt cheep to Big ticket items!
Zoltar I never even thought to do a coupler as easy as that hose!:mad: I went and made 3 from brass stock . took a evening to drill tap machine etc. KISS!!!!! should tatoo that on my eyelid.
Here's a pic of it.
Those are nice controlers you guys have there;)
Tree Magnet is building mine and I'm waiting on 10ohm 10watt resistors so he can finish it.
Was @ the Toronto Hobby show today and there was a company call BOTS. Shop for robotics etc.
They had a XYZ For sale $229 Didn't ask any questions will see it again tomorrow.

[balsaman]

Willam A, I looked at an old 5.25 floppy and yes it has a little stepper. It's too small for a project like ours but I have seen on the net a guy made an engraver from floppy drive steppers. It was one that does the laminated plastic for labels etc. It was very small. Kinda cute. If your interested in this sorta thing you might want to remove the stepper just in case.

PanzyPoof, looking good. That coupler will work. I do like the hose coupler but I wanted something more rigid because I am using heavier rod than you guys (1/2-10) and am not supporting the rod at the motor end.

This week I hope to have the machine moving around. That's if everything goes on schedule :rolleyes:

Eric

[Zoltar]

Yes, I did try in the beginning also rigid couplers but this was not satisfying to me. It could eventually break the shaft of your stepper or ruin the ball bearing inside.
Even ready bought nylon ROTEX coplers did not work good enough.

Hera a sample pic of the rotex coupler included. As you thighten the lockscrew the nylon mounting ring start to deform.

Not a good solution!

Now I only use and sell a these hose couplers with hose-clamps.

Centering the Axe on the axe of the stepper has been solved by a little notche of 6,2 mm on the thread-spindle falling a few mm into the (6.35 mm) adapter on the stepperengine. By this its actually dead center and supported!, It still allows a little angle inaccuracy. The Nylon reinforced Air-hose does only do the actual axial -driving-connection. Because of the nylon wires in the plastic-hose it does not axial deform much because of the steppers torque. Its actually not deforming (as it comes back) more like feather.... This feathering effect causes less then 1 step difference.

This Feathering effect is a very important feature on the metal construction I offer, as it dampens the sound very good. In wood resonance or sound amplification wil be not much of a problem I guess.

Good luck to all, on the stepper-connections!

Chris

[Zoltar]

Originally posted by balsaman
Now I would only run it at around 12, but I can live with .27! Someone care to enlighten me?

Eric

Eric,

Depending on what you are milling....

....I always have to do some calculations from mils to inches and back...

Normaly Ply, with a simple tool can be done with 6-8 mm sec so this would be max 480 mm per minute /25,4 = about 18" a minute?

Balsa can be cut at a higher speed 10 or 12mm sec--> 25" a minute a sec (with a decent sharp tool).
Balsa tends, depending on the type of balsa and cutter tool- quality, that if the fibers are not cut properly they can actually turn around the cutter. Harder balsa gives to my experience a nicer, sharper cut.

But, normally, I cut balsa at the same speed rate as the lite ply, by this you give the cutter actually time to do its work.
Its all a bit experimental. Just make a few test-cuts before cutting the real thing!

But you are the Balsaman! ;)

BTW, max speeds I can achieve now are up to 20/25 mm per second- 47" per minute (using the right stepperengines, driverboard with suitable powersupply). This is mostly too fast for a dremel or similar.

Chris

[uscra112]

All:

http://www.mcmaster.com/

I shoulda posted this long ago. McMaster-Carr has just about every known form of hardware, tools, and mill supplies, that a farmer or factory-owner might ever want. Including couplers you might use. ( Although I do approve of the hose trick! ) I'm gonna drive my screws via cog-belts, and this is where they're coming from. They'll sell off the Web site with a credit card, and as far as I know there's no minimum order. If they ain't got it, you don't need it.

They will even sell you real ballscrews if you want to spring for $250.00 per screw! No stepper motors, though, and no electronic equipment beyond multi-meters and the like.

[crankorgan]

Hi Group,
I just noticed someone wrote on their website that roller blade bearing and pipe was not sturdy. I guess they should give it a try!


Cranky John

[crankorgan]

Hi,
Looking for more power? Try a 3/4 HP router to cut out those
basswood bulkheads. This very simple mount took me days to figure out. The Porter Cable has only one 1/4-20 mounting bolt. This made things very interesting! This router will only work on larger machines using sturdy pipe and roller bearings!


Cranky John

[crankorgan]

Hi,
I told Balsaman about DeskNC. The program runs in DOS works great. It plots the GCode to the screen so you can see it before you cut it!

http://deskam.com/desknc_DOS.html


Cranky John

[uscra112]

Hey, cranky, I thought you'd quit us !

Let's argue about gantry machines!

They do take a different mindset, because the gantry tries to skew and pitch fore-and-aft like crazy. But I've worked enough on full-size ones to know how Cincinnati Milacron and Ingersoll make 'em work, so mine is indeed a gantry. They do have the advantage (if you need it) of being able to do very long parts, like tapered spars or fuselage sides. I'm thinking of wing moulds, even. ( Someday )

Still don't have a digital camera so no pictures yet . . . Slow progress, too - may not be up & running until after Xmas now . . .

[uscra112]

Wiiliam A:
On some other thread someone was advocating converting hard drive motors as micro brushless flight motors. Don't chuck it 'til ya check that out. . .

[Zoltar]

Welcome back, Cranky John!

And the show goes on...........;)


I guess you where visiting my website

- www.rcmodels.net/cnc -

I am truly honoured!

Anything new?

I wish to come back on your last subject:

Quote by Mr C:/ -GANTRY SYSTEMS SUCK-

And I do think you are (as always) perfectly right!

Gantry systems would really suck if I would be build them out of wood and use ballbearings for guidance..............

But, may I remind you that most > pro-build (metal) routers< are gantry systems.

All these designers, engineers and company's selling those systems cant be wrong ?

Can they?


BTW, There are mostly more solutions and idea's to a problem. If that idea or solution may not be yours, it still may be all right.....

Learn to live with those facts, otherwise its a poor life.

Ski you later!

Chris

[crankorgan]

uscra112,
You are right about gantry styles they have several flaws built in. The big kicker is during the adjustment phase. Since
all three axis are on one assembly, any adjustment to one throws another out. The YAW problem does not show up under light cutting. My first machine was a gantry, I moved on to easier to build and adjust machines. The 7th Sojourn is very easy to setup compaired to a regular gantry. All my info here is for a homemade machine, not a kit!


Cranky John

[crankorgan]

Hi,
Check out this one using bearings and pipe!

http://www.frontiernet.net/~salterc/cnc.htm


Cranky John

[crankorgan]

William A,
In 1984 I built a Radio Fax machine using stepping motors. You hook the machine to a shortwave radio that has SSB
and you can receive weather charts and news photos from around the world. It used paper that was conductive. If you put 30 volts through the paper it turned black. It was my first stepper motor project. I was the first person to use steppers instead of AC synchronous ones. The station would send a series of beeps that came once per second. This is where you would hit your sync button.

Crankster

[crankorgan]

Hi Gang,
Here is a guy who built a machine out of old printers. It
mills circuit boards so it will also do balsa.


http://www.geocities.com/fneagu/cnc_engraver.htm


Crank it out!

[balsaman]

Cranky glad you are back. Lets try and get along.:D My couplers will be solid, but my motors will be rubber mounted. I have an aluminum plate, 3/4" rubber isolation mounts, then a heatsink with the steppers bolted to it. I will post a pic when I get time. If there is a little wiggle in the couplers, the rubber mounts will take care of it.

Eric

[balsaman]

Here is a pic. You can see the two shafts where the coupler will go. I have one like this for each axis. I was just going to put the rubber mounts on the motor, but my motors from stepperworld.com came with a big warning about heat sinks on them soo......just to be safe. Plus, it looks cool!

Eric

[crankorgan]

balsaman,
Is that where the heatsinks go? I have only seen the ones that fit over the body of a stepper. The X and Y motors run cooler than the Z axis. During normal operation the X and Z are moving more than the Z axis. I don't run heatsinks here, I think Russ is running those motors hotter. I think he mentions it there on his website.

Crank

[balsaman]

Cranky,

I made my own heatsinks. I cut them from a chunk of aluminum heat sink material. Russ says he runs his motors at 125% of rated current. The resistors I got from him are only 2.5ohms. That's one for each motor, with both winding going to one resistor. I have not done the math, as I figure what he sold me will work. If they still get hot, I can add more heat sink material. I did consider one that would clamp to the motor body. Here is a pic of what I made.

Eric

By the way. This darn CNC better work. I got a fair bit of effort in it now.:rolleyes:

Eric

[Zoltar]

Eric,

You do have a flex on your stepper! but only placed it somewhere else.

That good thinking!

Chris

[uscra112]

Careful there, Balsaman - that mount has softened up the resolution path for the reaction torque from the motor. It may affect the way the thing works. My guess is it would miss steps more often. Pushing against a soft mount lets the motor body rotate backward, keeping the rotor from getting "over the hump" to the next step, so it falls back.

Oh, heck, try it anyway! Nothing ventured, nothing gained. An awful lot of good inventions have come from things that looked like mistakes. If it doesn't work, well, we've all learned something.

[uscra112]

Cranky, I think you're right - that heat-sink won't gather up the heat from where it's being generated, which is in the coils which are in the cylindrical body. It'll dissipate some, but not nearly as much as fins on the body. These things draw max current when they're holding still, right? But the Z doesn't need all that much torque, so why not just increase the ballast resistance to cut down the current in the motor?

[PanzyPoof]

What about water cooling? >DC wobble pump etc

[crankorgan]

uscra112,
You can reduce the current on smaller 50-60oz motors with a little speed and torq loss. Higher torq motors will start losing steps. Mounting the motor on rubber or using rubber to joint the two shafts allows for poor alignment of the parts. Alignment within one thousand of an inch is tough to achieve with any homemade design. Some of my designs use a floating drive nut. The drive nut can move side to side or up and down. There is no play in the back and forth direction. You can also allow the end bearing to float. Not spin! Float.

C r a n ky

[Zoltar]

Eric,

I do not think the rubbers will be a problem aslong as they are not too soft......

CHRIS

[uscra112]

Cranky:
Yah, motor-shaft to screw-end alignment is a known problem in the stuff I used to do, too. Ballscrews 4" in diameter and 15HP servos can create big trouble if they're not lined up. Major stress on the bearings. But we never used Oldham coupling or any kind of sliding universal joint there. Those types give you a sinusoidal error between the two shaft angles as they rotate, if they're not perfectly lined up. So if you're depending on knowing motor angle to know the slide position, you're suffering lost accuracy. Never mind the inevitable backlash. With the fine pitch screws we are using, though, those errors are too small to be worth thinking about.

For position encoders and resolvers we often used the metal "bellows" couplings you can see in the PIC catalog. They were invented specifically to get a coupling that would stand some misalignment but wouldn't create a sine error, and even more important had zero backlash. Your hose coupling is an awful darn good approximation of that, so stick with it, I say, so long as you use a fairly stiff kind of hose. The braid-reinforced kind in your picture should be great!

Chris, I'm thinking that Balsaman's mount may resonate in torsion at some stepping rate or other. It's surely got a natural frequency below 1 kilohertz. Probably in the low hundreds, and that's too close to what the steps frequencies might be. But I'm just speculating, given that I don't know the stiffness of his rubber. It'll be fun to find out. If it does buzz, it'll be easy to change it.

Cranky, just what size bearings DO you find in a NEMA 23 or 34 motor? The shafts on the NEMA 34's I bought are 3/8", which means they must have a reasonably good-sized ball bearing in there. Maybe they can take the load after all?

[DICKEYBIRD]

Originally posted by Zoltar
I do not think the rubbers will be a problem aslong as they are not too soft......
;) ;)

[crankorgan]

uscra112,
Good software has backlash comp in it. So I put all my efforts into coming up with ways to hide alignment problems from first time builders. The rubber tubing and floating nut hide all alignment problems. If you use 1/4-20 threaded rod with a floating nut any backlash is small. The proof in the pudding is when I started selling circuit boards milled on my machines. Alot of nay sayers went running. Balsa is alot easier to mill than PCBoard. DickeyBird is using a machine that was designed to drill circuit boards. He had the vision to use it to cut out balsa parts.
Alot of first time builders worry about speed and backlash for some reason! A basa part out by .005 would look perfect to most people. Some will argue that! I tell people...lay out a part. Cut it out, decide if it works. Then measure it! Parts that work fine may be way out! Some CNC people spend weeks trying to cut out a perfect circle. Perfect circles are made with bores for a reason.


John

[crankorgan]

uscra112,
I have only seen floppy drive motor bearings. I never had a NEMA23 motor die on me, so I found no reason to pull one apart. If you push the shaft of a NEMA23 in and out you will feel a spring action. There is a wavey washer on the back of the rear bearing. This allows the bearing room to move as the motor heats up. This play will do you in, unless you use a bearing on the opposite side of the leadscrew. If you mount the motor on standoffs and joint the leadscrew to the motor with a flexable coupler. You can put the bearing on the motor side. The end of the leadscrew can then float free in the drive nut to a greater degree.

Crankorgan

[uscra112]

Aha ! So even if it can handle the radial load, there'll be a mile of backlash from the thrust bearing, and it'll vary with motor temperature.

Are you suggesting tensioning the screw by pulling on it with the bearing at the other end? If the wave spring is compressed by pushing the shaft in, that might work because it would pull the motor shaft against the hard front bearing.

I would advocate putting SOME tension on, anyway. We always did. On a 1 1/2" diameter screw 5 feet long, we'd stretch it by maybe .050" or so with the takeup nuts on the ends. This made it a whole lot stiffer in tension, and made the whole servo system more responsive. Obviously we can't do that much in our structures, but within our limits tension ought to help, eh what?

Hmmm, but that puts the Kiss of Death on using the motor's bearings - now you have to carry the tension thru the coupler, which means the hose coupler isn't really viable. So you were on a better track all along.

And you're also absolutely right - all we need is +/- .005" or so for accuracy. Heck, it's WOOD. It'll probably vary three times that in size with moisture content anyway!

I wanta tell ya, this thread has been a blast! I've uptaken some basics about these steppers, which I never considered before, and it got me going on my own router that I'd been dreaming about but wouldn't do because DC servos (which are all I knew) are too bloody expensive. When I'm done here I'm gonna do my milling machine, too.

[crankorgan]

uscra112,
The motor is conected to the threaded rod (leadscrew)
with black auto vacuum line tubing. The opposite side of the threaded rod sits inside a bearing with a nut on each side. The nuts are tightened against each other traping the hub of the bearing. Two turns of copper wire are wound into the threads. This builds up the threaded rod so it fits tight in the hub of the bearing. The bearing takes the force in two directions. The motor never sees any pressure except for turning! A very simple cheap design! The vacuum line allow the threaded rod some movement. The 1/4-20 rod is also flexible. Add to that a floating nut and you won't see any binding unless your parts are way-way-waaaay out!

John Cnc Kleinbauer

[uscra112]

Ah, NOW I get it. You're taking ALL the thrust on the far end of the screw, and letting the motor end hang on the coupler. So the radial load on the screw at the motor end IS taken on the motor bearing. I can be dense at times . . . .

[crankorgan]

uscra112,
I think you got it! But you wrote something else! The bearings in the motor see no end thrust because there is flex in the tubing. The bearing mounted on the opposite side of the threaded rod from the motor sees all the endthrust.

But you can mount the bearing on the same side as the motor. Same two nuts on each side of the bearing. The motor sits off the bearing plate on standoffs. The motor is hooked to the threaded rod with the same tubing. So one end of the threaded rod is sitting free inside the drive nut. It can move up or down, right or left depending on bearing play.

Some designs use two bearings. They are adjusted against each other so their endplay is removed. KISS


John

[balsaman]

Hi cncer's,

Regarding the heat sinks. They are aluminum. The body of the Steppers are aluminum. Aluminum conducts heat readily! They will pull heat from the steppers. If the windings on the stepper are hot, the whole stepper will be hot. Perhaps the heatsink would be most effective on the body. It is also the toughest place to install one. The body of the stepper is round. I am cheap! I can make a flat heat sink free. My info from stepperworld says mouting the motor to a chunk of metal is sufficient. They just don't recommend mounting it to a chunk of wood, or if you do, put a chunk of metal between. I will monitor the heat and let you know.

Also, I think the Z axis will require the most torque, at least on my machine. It has to lift a router. The other axis just move around. No gravity to fight against.

The rubber mounts are fairly stiff. I mounted them a bit away from the motor to add some resistance to twist as the motors have less leverage on them the farther out from the shaft they are. I think they will be fine. if not, out they come!

Thanks for all the input guys. Too bad I don't listen. :D I like to try my own way first, then I listen when its not working. :p Great to have all the view points tho.

Gotta go. Start the wires today.

Eric

[balsaman]

Dickeybird,

Last time I checked, my coupler was workin fine.

;)

Eric

[crankorgan]

Hi,
Cheap couplers for 1/4" to 1/4" shafts can be found at:

only $1.25 each.....enter coupler in their search engine. They are rubber and cast aluminum. I bought them and then sold them on Ebay. I was afraid if I used them on a design they might be hard to find in the future.

http://www.meci.com/


John Cranky

[PanzyPoof]

Hmmm ya gotta order min $20 of stuff. 3 couplers don't cut it.
Interested to get in if a order goes down.

[crankorgan]

PanzyPoof,
The vacuum line works just as good. The Meci couplers are three parts that fit together. Meci sells suplus at higher prices than other people. It's no shock they have such a high minimum order. The couplers also hit the hump in the aluminum channel. In order to use them I had to cut a piece of the aluminum channel out. The extra stiffness of the Meci couplers over the rubber tubing gets divided out by the 1/4-20 thread. The 1/4-20 threaded rod has only one drawback! It make the machine run slow. But since we are using a Dremel and a Dremel can only handle a small load, speed is not a problem.


John

[PanzyPoof]

John it's true I really don't need em. End up in the Junk/Parts Drawers collecting Dust. I've got a extensive Dust collection going already:D

Just looking and this thread already 6300 reads and 340 posts, Whow quite a interesting subject.
Wait till we start making something :rolleyes:

[crankorgan]

Originally posted by PanzyPoof
John it's true I really don't need em. End up in the Junk/Parts Drawers collecting Dust. I've got a extensive Dust collection already:D

I sell off what I don't use on Ebay!!! Then I buy something else. I started buying steppers 10 at a time. I bought 10 from Canada like the ones you have. 6 Volt dual shaft 80oz. Customs took them out of the packing. For over a month Ebay had tons of them. Someone somewhere found a boatload of them.

John

[balsaman]

All this talk about couplers made me nervouse with my solid ones. I found these at work in a bin. They should work. They are flexible so if I need to mount the motors solid I will be fine.

Eric

[uscra112]

Man, you do fall into it. Those couplers are worth about $30 apiece new.

[PanzyPoof]

Oh great now I'm the odd one with solids.
YThose look fancy/overkill, Any product # see if we can find them online:confused:
Posted same time: You guys got a garbage bin at work, is it in a secure area:cool:

[crankorgan]

Originally posted by balsaman
All this talk about couplers made me nervouse with my solid ones. I found these at work in a bin. They should work. They are flexible so if I need to mount the motors solid I will be fine.

Eric


Don't be nervous, the one you show in the picture is ideal!!! It flexes without any backlash, unless you over load it and in that case metal fatigue will cause it to break in two. Looks like work has all kinds off goodies around. Looks like the coupler is anodized gold like BMX parts.

John

[balsaman]

Panzypoof,

No, no part number. They were off some encoders that were removed from production. They have 1/4" holes on both sides. I had to drill out one side to 3/8" to fit my lead screws.

I don't think the solid ones will be a problem on the 14-20 rod. The rod is pretty flexible itself. I am using 1/2 - 10 rod, and it doesn"t give much if there is some wobble. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.

The only reason I didn't go to hose is because I had to go from 1/4" to 3/8", otherwise I would have. That is still an option for you as well.

I am betting your solid ones will be fine.

Eric

[uscra112]

Panzy - go to www.reidtool.com and look up Ruland shaft couplers. Page 3 of the "Power Transmission, Bearings and Linear Motion" section.

[balsaman]

The factory I work at is 15 acres of floor space. We have tons of high tech equipment, robotics, "pick and place" gantry style material moving equipment etc. Like I said, the equipment changes and parts are left over. I look around all the time for goodies. When I see something shiney, I salvage it before it goes in the scrap, even if I don't need it. Sometimes I find a use for it. When I build a project, I look even harder. We have obsolete equipment stored waiting to be cut up. They come with huge torches and a magnet crane and fill huge trucks and hual it away. I go over it and save the cool stuff.

Eric

[crankorgan]

PanzyPoof,
If you use STOREBOUGHT couplers then you will have to cut out part of the hump in the aluminum channel. You may be using that part to mount your end plate.

John

[balsaman]

It's built! I just need to wire it all up. If I stay up late, I could have it moving! (I don't think I will)

The main concern I have after completing the mechanical part is will the little motors be able to move the axis. The axis' are pretty free to move on the rails, but there is some drag in the delrin nut. It's a bit tight yet. I can grab the screw with my fingers on the threads and move the axis by hand but I feel the drag. The machine may loosen up a bit once I have it running for a bit. Z axis is the the best, y the tightest. x is in between. I could retap the delrin if need be. Time will tell.

I can feel no slop anywhere. Nice and tight. I can flex the long y axis "bridge" a bit if I put some muscle behind it (twist). I put one 4" wide MDF brace along the back of the bridge, like a "t". I should have gone with two to make a "c". I think that it will be fine until I try cut aluminum or something else heavy. I can beef it up if required.

Question about switches. I will mount 6 switches on the ends of the axis' for over travel. Cranky said something about home switches, but my controller has no such thing. I was going to move the axis' to zero-zero manually, reset the counters in the software, and cut from zero, zero as the home position. Is that how it's done?

Here is a pic of the machine.

Eric

[balsaman]

Oh, and I forget to mention. This thing is heavy! I cant pick it up! Maybe thats a good thing, since its a cnc cutter. I feel guilty about it. "Build light" has been pounded into me for so long. I keep telling myself....it doesn't have to fly Eric....:D

Eric

[crankorgan]

balsaman,
60oz motors are tough to stop with your fingers when they are running slow. Your motors have even more torq! Just make sure there is some oil on the leadscrew. Nylon and Delrin are self lubricating to a point. A little oil lets them run cooler, so they don't expand and grab.

You have to decide where you want HOME X0 Yo Z0 You
made the machine so you can put HOME where you want. The
machine starts from the HOME position. Make HOME where you
can load you material easily. The switches go where home is. When you send the machine HOME each axis hits the HOME switch and resets. L@@king Down on the machine. X0 is to the left. A command of X4.5 makes the machine move right 4.5 inches. Y 2.5 makes the maching move up and away from you.
The Z axis goes down with a Z-1.5 Notice that cutting is a negitive number. You only need three switches for HOMEing the machine. Limits can be programed into the software.

You can cut balsa without limit switches. You JOG the cutter out to the lower left hand corner of the material. Lower the cutter ti 1/8" over the material. RESET the controls...then start the program. The program is set to cut a little deaper than 1/8" (Z-.125) deaper (Z-.135)


John

[balsaman]

Ok,

But there is no provision on my controller for the xyz home switches. I could solder them right to the board on the proper LPT port pins I guess....

Eric

[crankorgan]

balsaman,
You need a switch and a pull-up resistors. The top of the resistor goes to +5volts. The bottom of the resistor goes to one side of the switch. The other side of the switch goes to ground. The output comes from where the switch and resistor are connected. The switch can be NO or NC (Normally Open) (Normally Closed) You can set this in the software. The output from the switches goes to a pin on the Parallel connector. (Set in
Software)

Sometimes you can leave the pullup resistors off. They
are on the computer port allready!!! Buy then sometimes!!!
1K to 2K 1/4watts work great.

No pullups on the controller? Bogus! But knowing what I know! You can leave them off. Most people never get as far as you have! They just spin the motors. Asking about switches is a level few people make it to!!! Even though you did not buy my plans....I am proud of you!

John

[DICKEYBIRD]

Lookin' good Balsaman! You did well by not trying to hurry up in the final stages...you need a nice relaxed Saturday to take your time & finish up.

My controller came wired for homing switches but I got in a hurry and didn't put them on. 4 yrs. later I've never had a problem. I just jog everything to 0, reset the software and go. If you draw up a "virtual worktable" in CAD, position your parts within the perimeters of that area and convert to G-Code from there, you won't have a problem. Now if you start writing your own code, LOOK OUT! A misplaced 0 or decimal point here or there will have an axis trying to drive all the way to Kansas! Don't ask how I know that!;) Additionally, I never actually start a cut without 1st doing an on screen preview of the code....a function that should come in your controller s/ware.

Post some pix of the chips flyin' when you get her running and I'll raise my glass in your honor. Of course I usually raise my glass for just about anything these days!;) ;)

[balsaman]

Don't congratulate me yet.....now to see if I can make it move.......stay tuned.........

Eric

[DICKEYBIRD]

Hey Eric....by the way, when you get yours up & running, one of your 1st projects has to be engraving a brass plate with your machine's name on it. I named mine in honor of my dad who was nicknamed "The Great Robert L" and was THE consummate tinkerer and builder of miraculous machines out of nothing but castoff junk. I would give anything if he was still around to enjoy this stuff with me! He passed away in 1980 before we knew anything about computers or software.

Cranky's built so many that there probably aren't enough names to go on all of 'em! ;)

ps: Check these out:
http://propellers.us/rcu.htm
http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread.php?threadid=77019&perpage=20&forumid=63&pagenumber=1

Go Cranky go!!

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
All those expensive parts and that blue paint hit me with the name. The Blue Max!

Crank it Up!

[crankorgan]

DICKEYBIRD,
My Dad died in 1984. We used to build all kinds of things. In the cellar there was his shop and there was my shop. He was a toolmaker by trade. It was nice to be able to have a spindle shaft made by him. Now I have to work around hard to make parts. He used to call CNC machines automatics. Rather than buy something, he would try to build it first. That used to frustrate me! Now I have become just like him!

John

[balsaman]

It works!..lol..I made some imaginary parts! At 12 inches per minute it seems pretty good. CNCpro wont let me try faster. My x axis is a tad stiff, so it's set at 10 so far. I may retap it if it doesnt get looser on its own. Very smooth! I am so excited! Dickeybird, ya your right those steppers just sorta mosey along. I can count the turns.:cool: I feel the need to cut a part! I better go get that router this weekend.

Gotta hate that CNCpro quitting just when you're getting started. I better register it. It seems to work quite well. Better than Kcam as I could hear it miss steps. I will try a few more softwares and let you all know.

Panzypoof thanks for inspiration. Keep going it will be worth it!

Cranky, Dickeybird, Zoltar thanks for all the great advice!

I need to clean the shop now. What a mess.:D

maybe later.

Eric

[PanzyPoof]

Congrats on getting it working:D I'm Still is slow
gear here, But putting along.
Tree magnet just got his Foam cutter all 4 axis working also so that's 2 machines IN CANADA eh:cool: So now you got to build a plane rember that's why ya built it. Whatta ya gonna Build?

[balsaman]

You are not in slow gear! You had to make everything. I was lucky and had the rails and slides done. Keep going. Keep us informed.

Make? I never thought of that:D . I want to fool around a bit first.

Eric

[balsaman]

Hey CNCpro is $199.00?? Whats with that?


How do I make turbocnc jog my mill faster? I dont see a jog speed in the setup. Everything else is working.

Eric

[crankorgan]

balsaman,
First you have to use the W and Q to step through each axis. Then top speed is in the MOTION section. There is
a conference for TURBOCNC. Also try DESKNC it is cheaper than
CNCPRO. CNCPRO is still the best. There is a Windows program out there that people are talking about. I won't say it's name because the people who use it bad mouth the rest. The truth is there is no perfect CNC program. They all have some bugs.

John

[crankorgan]

balsaman,
I just put TURBOCNC on my Win98 machine. It loses steps if you use a DOS window. On the shutdown screen select
reboot in MSDOS mode. The JOG in TURBOCNC is very different
than CNCPRO. You select the amout of the JOG or you can enter in the amount.

John

[DICKEYBIRD]

Hey Eric....congratulations man! What a feeling of power eh? Man exercises his ultimate power over machines!:D

Type in some circles....a G03 command, I think, and listen to the beautiful sounds the steppers make....ahhh, music to the ears!:)

P/Poof is also building a PBY, I think, so he has a good excuse for not finishing his yet.

TGIF!!! I got 1 new plane finished and another needs a couple hours tonight to finish it but the %!@# weather's going bad for the 2nd weekend in a row!:mad: I love test flights!

[Tree_Magnet]

balsaman i use master5 cnc its a windows base program and need a p2 266 or better I run a p200 mmx and it runs pretty well. the programs 100 usd (but if you tell him your canadian he might give it to you for 100 $cdn. i like it all his support is free and fast check out his demo.

Tom

[Tree_Magnet]

another cnc program that works is stepster i started out with that one and its free

http://www.metalworking.com/shareware.html

kelly ware is all right to
http://kellyware.com/kcam/index.htm

Tom

[crankorgan]

Tree_Magnet
TurboCNC is alot like Stepster. Stepster did not like my P133 when I tried it. I found DeskNC was quite good at the time for $85. I then played with TurboCNC then CNCPro. CNCPro and TURBOCNC will run four motors just in case you want to drive the X axis with two steppers. None of the Windows programs are smooth on any of my computers. I can't see paying $900 for a faster computer when you can buy TurboCNC for $20 and it will run on almost any computer. I bought CNCPro when it was $150.
I don't think it is worth $200. I wish KCam ran better, I really like how it is setup. KCam is $100 there are other programs out there!!! Very buggy. Some people like tinkering. I only like tinkering with mechanical parts. I have enough problems with Windows 98 as it is!

John

[PanzyPoof]

Ya I'll keep at it Just today I built a Balsa Drawer for the Bench 16X48X6 sick of storing it in unsale places. Now who gave me that Idea:D Thanks.
And ya I'm working on my PBY! it gave me the insperation to seek a router table.
I didn't want to have to do this see pic by hand. OK it's now for the next model and I'll just feed the machine the lumber:D

[Zoltar]

Congrats Eric!

Master5 CNC software seems to be a fine option at a $100?

Any known bugs?

It also can convert bitmaps to vector paths.....

Scan and cut?

Can you tell us some more about this CNC prog, Tree_Magnet?


Regards

Chris

[balsaman]

Ok the chips have been flying! Here's the proof. I tried balsa and MDF. No problems so far at 6" per min. When I get more confident I will try 10 or more. I need to make a program to drill a hole every inch square on the bed. I plan on putting a bed an inch over the one you see will the holes for clamps. I will put blind nut in all the holes. I think 10/24.

Eric

[balsaman]

and another

[balsaman]

oops

[crankorgan]

balsaman,
Here is the clamping method Steven Manzer uses on his Pipe Dream. "Tee" slots made with two passes of a router.

Cranky

[balsaman]

A couple more pics. This is just the biginning!

Cranky,

I can't call it Blue Max, it's actually grey, as can be seen in these pics with a bit better lighting. I was thinking "Skippy":D

Eric

[balsaman]

And another.

[balsaman]

I am using rotozip bits in my flex shaft. The dremmel hangs from the ceiling. I had to cut the bits way down. The come about 2.5" long. Too wobbly way out there. I cut one so the cutter part is about 1/2" long. Much better. The flex shaft is mounted there temporalily, as can be seen. There is too much play in the dremel bearing IMHO. I am looking for a trim router. What model did you buy cranky? Is it variable speed?

I am also building a DC motor spindle drive. I am waiting for the timing belt and pulleys (on order). It should be much quieter.

If I did it again I would change a few things. I would put the x axis bridge supports facing backwards, so they don't interfere with the axis and/or create a pinch point. It had them face forward because I wanted the weight of the router etc. to be centered above the center of the supports, not hanging way out ahead. I figured it would be more ridgid. Also the table would be more accessible for laying, clamping the sheets down etc. I would also put the y axis motor at the back. I put it at the front so I could slide the machine into a back corner of the bench. I am finding I want it in the front corner, easier to work on. I may still move that one.

I did achieve my goals. I wanted a full 12"x24" cutting, I can cut a tad over that, and to be able to jog at over 12" per minute. I can do that on two axis. I need to retap x axis to loosen the nut/screw fit, and that will be fine too.

Overall I am happy as a lark!

Eric

www.e-zflight.com

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
Mill a large square half depth. This will check for depth problems. You may want to do a 3D project later on. I like the large Z cradle with the flex line on the side. What's driving the flex line? Don't like The Blue Max...Hmmm

How about "Swag 2002"

LOL

Cranky

[balsaman]

Ahh cranky the depth is good. I measured when I was building:D I put the cutter in the z axis and jogged it to a hair over the table. I then jogged the table to its limits in the x and y and it was very close. I guess you could put in a big cutter and then "machine" the entire surface of the table if it were out a bunch? I am within 1/32" or better.

Eric

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
Is that flexshaft new? Too much flex! I guess than the Dremel is the best way to go. I bought a Porter Cable trimmer router $99 at Home Dupa. The model is 7310 3/4hp 30,000 rpm no speed control. Easy to mount see the picture I sent a few days ago.

Push past any changes you may want to make! You have a working machine. Zero in on software for now. Plan your next machine a little at a time.

Crank

[balsaman]

It's an old flex shaft. I am not planning a new machine any time soon. LOL

Eric

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
For balsa parts your machine is great! Getting a machine in close depth wise is the harder part. You are right you
can mill the bed or shim a sub-bed level. Now you can cut holiday
decorations. Santas and little trees. Don't forget bird feeders. My
largest group of customers make 3d plaques and signs.

Cranky

[balsaman]

Ya, my wife has a list. She wants me to make a liteply name for each kid in her class (she is a grade 4 teacher) to give to them as a gift to hang on the tree. Hence the liteply "Kyle" I made as a trial. It was the shortest name in her class.:D

Eric

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
So it starts! I had a guy bugging me to make tiny plastic clips so he could sell them. He had all kinds of big ideas as long as someone else did the work! He failed to see my path so I stopped answering his calls. If you can handle CAD you are all set. Very few people know how to draw. I took four years of drafting. I keep up my skill until learning TurboCad. I like the way you kept all the letters hooked together, very artsy!

Crank

[balsaman]

I wrote the text in Corel draw, converted the text to curves, save as dxf, open in Autocad, move the letters so they overlap, offest the letters for the tool diameter, fool around with layers etc. peice of cake:rolleyes:

Hey I finally got turbocnc to work. I didn't have the motor enable bits set. I can jog it now. I hate the jog function...why not just make it move till you let go? I set the increment small and its almost like that but you get it accelling, decelling for every increment. On a positive note, its way smoother than kcam (which is what I have used up to now) I can now move at 15 inches per minute with no missed steps at all, even on my stiffer x axis. I haven't tried faster. I could only get 10 on the x in Windows with kcam.

I NEED cncpro......:mad: Too much $$$. I only have about $300 USD invested in the whole machine. I am not spending $200 on a 1.5 MB dos program.

Turbocnc it is for now.

Eric

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
KCam has a TUNE function. This helps a little. Windows is the problem. It is very hard to control motors under Windows.

In Turbocnc there are three number The Max Start-Accel and Max speed. (I renamed them here) The Max Start is the fastert you motor will go from a dead start without missing pulses. Max speed is how fast the motor can go! Accel is how
fast the motor goes from the slow to the fast pulses. If you increase the Accel the motor will ramp-up and down faster. This is the only number to play with. My max is 800 my Accel is set at 1000 my Start Max is 200.

Don't forget DeskNC! It is more like CNCPro. I think it is still $85.


Crank

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
Here is a program that just became FREE!


http://www.mecsoft.com/freevm.htm


Crank

[senna12625]

Hi All,

I've been following along in the background... enjoying the dialog and accomplishments... I just have to chime in. I started my machine about a month ago... it's another one of Cranky's designs... this one is called the 'BRUTE'. I figured to go minimal while exploring this hobby and this machine fit the bill. It'll be a 'proof of concept' vehicle for me... just to see if I can actually build something that works and learn CAD/CAM well enough to incorporate them into my RC hobbies.

I put in several enjoyable days out in the shop and turned out numerous parts. Like you PanzyPoof ... I slightly altered the BED design. The 7th Sojourn uses the same basic design for the Y & Z axis. The 'BRUTE' uses it for all 3 axis... X, Y, & Z. I'm working with 1/2" UHMW material and had the thickness to incorporate the side GUIDES with a simple compound dado cut into the underside of the BED. (See Pic) Cranky has already seen this mod and was encouraging about 'imagineering' his design.

I'm laid up at the moment... foot injury! :mad: I can hobble out to the shop... I just can't DO ANYTHING!!! :( Sitting here at the computer and following everyones post's & progress helps... but I can't wait to get back to work. I'm more inspired than ever!!!

Senna

[senna12625]

X-axis with the Y-axis channel sitting atop.

[PanzyPoof]

Thats nice I like:D hmmm! And my store frount Alum Channel don't have that extra step. KISS
Mind if you don't have access to a mill plans version is the only way to go. Later one could mill such bases. I gonna follow and copy you.
Keep posting.

Whatta think Tom? Rudy's mill is getting Dusty since you finish you're foam cutter. Ya maybe I'll
bug him this week.
Indoor Flying Fri get ready.

[senna12625]

I knew I had another more recent photo somewhere on the harddrive of my BRUTE progress. This shows the X & Y axis storefront channels, the UHMW BEDs & GIBS, and two size 23 Vexta steppers mounted. These steppers are SMALL in size but if I read the Vexta chart right... they're rated at 55 oz-in of torque. I plan to over current them so they should be powerful enough. According to my figures I'll need to use 4.6 ohm, 18.4 watt power resistors @ 12 volts. I'll also have to mount the resistors to a fairly large heat sink. I'll probably just use a big piece of aluminum plate. BUT... that's down the road a ways AND after this foot gets healed up! :p

[PanzyPoof]

senna12625
Again Real nice. ? How did you mount motor end plates to Alum Channel?.

balsaman
You'll have to change you're handle to SawDustMan;)
Have you tried to copy off and scale (+or-) from a set of Plans Yet?

[balsaman]

Great job senna, get well soon. I am building my bed on a bed today I hope. It will be 1/2" ply with a 1/2" spacer between it and my MDF bed. I will drill 288 holes in it and install 288 blind nut for clamps every inch. I can also easily convert it to vacuum table this way.

Panzypoof,

I have only fooled around so far! I have had no way to clamp anything properly so I have been using packing tape! Once I get the bed made I will try some serious stuff. I need to make a former/motor mount for my Giles and I have been waiting for the cnc to be done so I could try an actual part.

Cranky, I will try that software you linked to. I havent got to try that desknc because I cant figure out the parallel port pin setup screen. It just has like 8 blank spaces to fill in....with what? and in what order? When I get some more time I will work on it.

Eric

[senna12625]

PanzyPoof...

The motor mount end plates are not completely fixed in place as yet. They are only secured at this point by two machine screws that thread into the 2 circular slotted portions at the bottom of the channel extrusion. Once I get back at it... they will be finished mounted with 1" aluminum angle tabs pop riveted to the channel and machine screwed through the motor mount end plates. Cranky uses plastic ANCHORS for this and cautions about distorting the aluminum channel from overtightening. I had the aluminum angle on hand and dont' foresee a distortion problem with pop riveting. I'll drill the end plate mounting holes through both the UHMW plastic and the aluminum angle at the same time so as not induce alignment problems that would possibly distort the channel. That kind of distortion would bind the beds.

BalsaMan... with how quickly your machine came into being... THAT was true inspiration!!! I too have access to ALL KINDS of MOTION goodies! My second machine will be quite a bit larger. So far I've gathered up from a VERY GENEROUS source (thanks PAT) all the items in the following pic...:D :D :D

Trissel, tressel, trussel, trone... time for this one to go home!!! AND HEAL UP!!! ;)

Senna

[crankorgan]

balsaman,
DeskNC requires bit numbers instead of Pin numbers.
I think KCam has them next to each pin number in the advanced
setup section. They are Digital to Dec numbers. 1-2-4-8-16-32-64 etc. Pin 2 of the Parallel port is D0 or 1 Pin 3 is D1 or 2

A real nightmare to setup. I just stole the numbers from KCam
if I remember correctlly. Forget DeskNC, stay with TurboCNC and join the conference.

John

[balsaman]

Cranky,

Ya i seen that it was bit numbers so I put some it but there are just blank space, with no x dir, x step , y dir y step etc. just 8 blanks. I tried once and it didn't go, then I gave up. I will try again. I don't think having to remember what all 26 letters of the alphabet do in a program is good programming practice. Whats wrong with a menu and mouse support? Or even just a menu. Crazy.:rolleyes:

Eric

[crankorgan]

Balsaman,
Playing with CNCPro first is the problem! It works like you think a program should. Use the TAB and BACKSPACE to setup DESKNC after hitting "M" Make sure you select STEP/DIRECTION the program defalts in PHASE. I will play with it again later! I wanted to see how joging is done, Its been awhile and I can't remember how it is done. I bought CNCPro because it was the only program at the time to run four motors at once. It turned out to be a good buy. I only spent $149 for the full version. I think it is worth that yet! I am not sure $200 is worth it. Alot of people are using that Windows program. It's only $100 now! Give it time! CNCPro was $75 when it started. All great program start cheap. My best bargain so far was TurbCad.
I found it at Staples last year for $30. An older version but still worth $30.

John

[senna12625]

With that assortment of linear bearings, shafts, rails, cars, steppers, etc. I posted a pic of eariler... I'm hoping to build a fixed gantry CNC router. I've had quite a bit of free time lately and I've made some drawings. I'll try posting them as a JPEG and see how that goes.

Senna