Mythbusters: 340mph, 6lbs, 4 pigs

[Daemon]

Anyone else catch tonight's Mythbusters?

They were testing a myth about whether canon balls fired from old pirate
ships killed more people directly or by spraying them with
large wood splinters as the ball passes through the thick wood hull.

What caught my attention though, was their second air cannon, shooting
6 lb balls at 340mph. In a familiar neighborhood?

They put a ball through 4 pigs like butter. They put it through 3
inches of white oak followed by 2 inches of pine leaving a pretty clean hole.

Fly carefully everyone. ;)

ian

[Mike the Snake]

How did they deterimine 340mph?

[cynjon]

For one of the rigs, they used a Chronograph--for another they used high-speed photography and filmed the cannonball moving across a grid that was marked in 1 ft increments. They calculated velocity based on the frame rate of the camera and the distance traveled between frames.

[Mike the Snake]

So this means that 3 pigs would NOT be good for a DS barricade?

[slopemeno]

Hmm, lets see, early morning math...Roughly, just roughly- about 118 times the muzzle energy of a .45 auto. Round balls are usually a little low on penetration vs a spitzer shape. How an MC3 holds up on a pig remains to be seen.

Better get another pig or two Mike.

[Frank S]

Hmm, lets see, early morning math...Roughly, just roughly- about 118 times the muzzle energy of a .45 auto. Round balls are usually a little low on penetration vs a spitzer shape. How an MC3 holds up on a pig remains to be seen.

Better get another pig or two Mike.Or a lot more butter.

[Terminator]

I was amazed at the bravado or disregard of personal safety of the eager and anxious crowd at Norco the day 301 was recorded. You would have to see it to believe how close or in harms way some of the on lookers were...like moths to a lightbulb at night....like deers in a head light.While hiding behind DOugs truck a guy that I was standing alongside told me a of him witnessing a planes nose that landed near the top frontside where we were standing and it blew up on the bottom turn backside...It was a MC3 nose...loaded....
I an has a valid point....take cover.

Alan

[slopemeno]

Well, all things considered- driving to the hill is still probably the most dangerous part of a day DSing.

On the other hand- all its going to take is a one serious accident to change things.

I doubt an MC3 would fare so well on a 3" thick white oak hull. But..on a person 150, 200 or 300 mph I think the result will still be tha same bad news.

[ronmeister]

Mispost.

[KingOfTheHill]

I was amazed at the bravado or disregard of personal safety of the eager and anxious crowd at Norco the day 301 was recorded. You would have to see it to believe how close or in harms way some of the on lookers were...like moths to a lightbulb at night....like deers in a head light.While hiding behind DOugs truck a guy that I was standing alongside told me a of him witnessing a planes nose that landed near the top frontside where we were standing and it blew up on the bottom turn backside...It was a MC3 nose...loaded....
I an has a valid point....take cover.

Alan

then don't go.... F3F and frontside are JUST as dangerous..

do you not think that an 11lb ballasted up acacia on a f3f dive in wouldnt kill someone? what about the heavy PSS planes at fermin? its all dangerous... if someone can't live with that fact, they shouldnt join in the fun...

fact is, everything is dangerous... unless your gonna wear a suit of bubble wrap, a helmet and surround your car with foam, dont leave home.

at least the DS guys are gonna make it a quick death :p better than getting nailed with a blunt nose foamie and dying of internal bleeding!. lol

JOe

[slopemeno]

Totally true. That Roan Cliffs video over in the slope forum would have done the trick just as well. Lets all have a collective crossing of the fingers...

[target]

What was the pig doing infront of the cannonball??

Acacia II's are at max legal wing loading before 11 pounds, due to the smaller square inches on the wing.
Still way lethal.

Be Careful, and Lucky!

Target

[Daemon]

Yes, it's all dangerous.

Anyway, I wasn't so much making a point about hitting a person directly,
although seeing a 4-5 inch diameter ball go through 4 pigs was interesting.
Probably anything over about 60mph could do someone in. I was
more thinking in terms of the discussions we've had about DS barriers
in the past. I don't see anything stopping a loaded, record breaking
DS plane short of a big pile of sandbags, or the engine block of a
vehicle.

I'd love to see them put some other stuff in front of their new air canon. ;)
ian

[Mike the Snake]

I think hay bails work well.

[Daemon]

I think hay bails work well.

I think that's a myth. ;)

ian

[flystoolow]

Just bring two bags from now on; one for the plane remains, and one for the body.

[Terminator]

Your grasp on reality needs a regrip JOe.
Common sense about saftey does not get thrown out the window just because of the activity you are engaged in. If you have no regard for your own saftey you must respect the safety of others...measured safety practice greatly reduces the odds of accidents. Try it you will like it.
Nothing to do with RC flying but yet related....understand?



Alan

[marfish]

For the most part I see guys honoring the safety/kill zone. :p No one wants to wake up dead, but no one wants to sit in the car all day neither. :( There is usually a pretty good balance. And for this I commend the DS crowd in general.

A quick reminder that F3F racing keeps the plane's nose pointing away from the flight line and those behind it. And things can still go wrong, like last year when someone got hit. That doesn't make F3F more dangerous than DS. It is the safety measures that are practiced by all present that keeps the accident rate down in any venue that has potentially lethal activity mixed with human activity.

Last year I was at Parker and overheard a discussion between a couple fliers. One was from out of state and he had just been asked by the other flier to not stand down in the saddle while the flying/carnage raged on. He insisted that he "could stand anywhere he wanted and should not feel endangered because it is the responsibility of the other pilots to avoid hitting him". Needless to say, he had been standing very close to the middle of the saddle and was making it difficult for newer fliers to feel free to fly, because they had HIS SAFETY in mind. Making a statement like that clearly conveys total disregard to safety and tells us that if we have a problem with that, we can go somewhere else, or straight to...somewhere else. That's just plain NOT SPORTSMANLIKE. We all have to share the hill and look out for one another, but things can go wrong so, stay out of the path of the planes where they cross the hill and our safety margin will go up exponentially.
Lotsa lift,
Marlan

[BeeDee]

Your grasp on reality needs a regrip JOe.
Common sense about saftey does not get thrown out the window just because of the activity you are engaged in. If you have no regard for your own saftey you must respect the safety of others...measured safety practice greatly reduces the odds of accidents. Try it you will like it.
Nothing to do with RC flying but yet related....understand?



Alan


From what I heard you didn't even have the nerve to fly that day... JOe is just saying that for some of these activities you will need to cinch up your skirt.. lol
:D :D :D :D


BD

[BeeDee]

And lest you take that last post too seriously, I am a BIG proponent of ORM and safety, but one mans courage is another mans recklessness, if you felt unsafe you were wise to take cover... If the DS scene is too unsafe in your opinion, stay home.. we won't miss one more guy flying laps.... It's not like someone goes 301 every time we go DS either.. and I can see if you had never been out to a WR spot that it would be intimidating.. but for guys who have been doing this for YEARS, they manage the risks and have fun...

BD

[Terminator]

edit

[KingOfTheHill]

From what I heard you didn't even have the nerve to fly that day... JOe is just saying that for some of these activities you will need to cinch up your skirt.. lol
:D :D :D :D


BD

OH SNAP! :p

Terminator... nothing personal at all... but i dont think i need a re-grip on reality.. life is dangerous, plain and simple.

like BD said... 300mph+ is not common at all.. so its not like that all the time...

Since your one of the Pro F3F crowd i'll use a phrase ALWAYS used against the DS'ers...

Get ready....

"Its not like we have a race (changed for "Going 300mph") every weekend. its only a few times a year"..

How do you like them apples? :D

[target]

Hey now!

Who says Terminator is "Pro F3F" !!!!

Love you both!

Target

[Terminator]

Not sure what you talking about?
I do like apples.

Pro F3f crowd?
Is there a Con f3f crowd?
Could I see your list?
What your a label maker?


Get Ready?
ready for what? 303? Huh?

[cobalt]

...

[marfish]

O.K., I'll take the plunge.

Guys, it appears that some here have a personal quarrel. ;) That's fine, just do it via PM's and other such venues. It's not really necessary to air out dirty laundry or name-calling on this specific thread when the point here is to place into perspective the energy our planes can generate at the speeds we can attain. Plain and simple. This was a very nice and graphic reminder of the primary job of each of us to fly safe, and be observant anywhere we go. Not just on a slope, or DSing.

What seems to be a disregard to safety from some here on this thread, doesn't really happen on the hill. I have flown DS with many here and generally the safety index is up. Let's not accuse others nor get our panties in a bunch over what "the other guy said". If we need a little work on our safety index, let's do it, rather than point fingers back. After all, we're all part of the coolest branch of R/C in the world....Slope. :D

What occurs to me also, is that the DS guys have either been extremely consious of the safety issues and rallied to keep safety up or way too lucky. If there can be a personal injury in F3F racing when the model races facing away from the crowd, it's just a matter of time when sombody will get snuffed on the DS hill unless the safety margin is maintained way higher than at F3F. All we need is for "powers that claim to be" to believe that it's too dangerous to allow DSing, and it'd all be over in a blink.

Keep it safe and in the lift, and I'll see ya on the slope.
Marlan

[concreteman]

Wow guys, I just peeked to see what the 6lbs and 4 pigs was about! Since this turned into a safety scene, just agree there is an element of danger in all flying, hell, sometimes its just the site itself ( bluff cove has shrunk immensely from the days I first flown there- landslides), the measure is can the guy at the helm do what he is intending, can the airframe take it, and pray for no radio malfunctions. If it scares you: hide. If you don't trust the guy: hide. There are many places to fly, head somewhere you can fly in comfort. No reason to bring out old hashed-out dilemmas. Jeez. WD

[marfish]

[QUOTE=concreteman]Wow guys, I just peeked to see what the 6lbs and 4 pigs was about!

Rubber-necker!! :)

[BeeDee]

Alan, we have PM'ed back and forth numerous times.. give it a rest, how come you know so much about safety and DSing yet don't fly... When someone asks you what your PB is they are not asking about what kind of peanut butter you prefer with sammiches.. the whole point is to go fast, as fast as you can without crashing.. You can't stomach flying at Fermin, you are obviously not cut out for DSing either.. Tell me again what exactly you DO fly? What it is it again that you do for a living? I know its not aviation safety.. DSing is safer than the threats you make from the comfort of your keyboard... I can tell you that...

BD

[longdollar]

Has anyone noticed how just when you start to get some good speedly laps in - some cyclist on a mountainbike rides up and parks right at the top of the hill where you are wizzing past his / her head.

They seem to have no concept that this plane is doing hellish speed and could go out of control at any second. They seem to think these things are as safe as commercial jetliners - or safer because I cant imagine them parking at the end of a commercial runway like that. I have my money on the first tragedy in DSing being a mountain biker, not a flyer. But the results will be similar. Shutting down of several sites. Hope you guys all have liability insurance.

[longdollar]

btw: I have to agree with Alan. People have callous disregard for their own safety like moths to a candle. Have you ever watched a world rally championship? Its the same thing, the spectators think that the drivers wizzing by at 200 kmph are totally in control at all times. Its up to the pilots to think about safety. You cant expect others to do this on their own. Just saying 'DS is dangerous - get used to it' is an attitude destined for tragedy.

[Schwemmer]

Back to the original discussion. Cannon balls and pigs.

6 lb cannon balls at 340 mph. Another example of limitations being broken. As in a 1/4 inch diameter arrow shot from a bow at 200 feet per second penetrating a Knight's armor. A heavily loaded DS plane will go through more than you think.

Sherpa

[BeeDee]

Most of the serious DSers are safety advocates, not the reckless speed demons that Alan would have you believe.. If you don't feel comfortable watching, or flying.. don't go on days when the forecast is calling for 40mph +.. stay home and knit, or build some PSS stuff..


BD

[threcixty]

Where I used to ds in Vegas, people would be shooting firearms at the base of the hill. Every once in a while, I think they would take a shot at my Electron as you could hear a bullet whistle overhead. On top of that, there were rattlesnakes on that hill and when you moved around on top of the hill trying to find the grove and tripped over a cactus, it really sucked. If you are going to go, you are going to go. It's worth the chance to me.
fwiw.. Maybe there is a use for the 30oz kevlar people sell so cheap.. Make a DS suit!

[threcixty]

Forgot to add.. The mythbusters was cool as hell! The cannon they used at the end was great!

[John Kim]

Isn't a specator considered that he waived any right to liability claim when he voluntarily came close to danger zone?

Is there any legal prcedents and rulings in RC accident cases? DS in particular.

What about a reported helicopter accident in which a spectator was killed?

I understand AMA insurance does not cover DS.

[concreteman]

For Marlan, usually the reason I peek into this forum is beacause I am impressed by the speeds attainable, but I am more impressed by the construction (since I am concreteman) and the thought, theory, and applications guys are putting into their planes. The stuff Joe Manor, Spencer (heard he was a plumber) and the Mclean ships have in them is very impressive, and I am a critical kind of guy, love their work, and its not even in my scope of flying. Just impressived, thats all. WD

[Terminator]

Try readiing the ama rules.
I do not think they apply here but I am just hyper critical draw your own conclusions.


Alan

[BeeDee]

Dean clean out your PM's..

BD

[raptor22]

Actually, AMA insurance DOES cover DS. Although it is "recommended" to fly in a manner consistent with the safety code, you are still covered if you are not doing so.

[Ade]

They put a ball through 4 pigs like butter.

ouch... its always been clear to me that its gonna be fatel if the nose hits you square on the body. but thats a hell of a lot of damage..

that would leave a mess.

Ade

[raptor22]

ouch... its always been clear to me that its gonna be fatel if the nose hits you square on the body. but thats a hell of a lot of damage..

that would leave a mess.

Ade

Yes, it would be fatal. But I think that JOe has an excellent point about the general sloping crowd.

Most of you have seen this picture before, but it is the nose of my "light" 25oz mach dart speared 6" through hardened metal. The airplane was only flying at approximately 60 mph when this was taken.

Pretty much ANY crunchie in good wind would kill a person....frontside or otherwise.

--Alex

[Joe W]

JOe is correct in that an F3F plane collision with a person could still have serious consequences, although it defies logic to place an F3F plane in the same category as a DS plane at 4 to 5X the speed of the typical F3F plane (=20 to 25X the kinetic energy).

I have a pretty long acquaintance with DS... and my opinion is that it is inherently much less safe than front-side flying, including F3F. Look at the data, DS planes are pushing the structural limits, servo limits, as well as pilot skill limits. How often does an F3F plane blow up? What is the typical life cycle of a DS plane? Compare this to the failure rate and typical longevity of an F3F plane.

In strong DS conditions, what is the percentage of DS planes that return intact from a flight? Don't be blinded by the fact that you enjoy flying DS. Pushing the envelope is a dangerous activity, and those parts that go flying uncontrolled after the plane, or a component fails, are dangerous, especially in that the typical DS orbit is in the plane of the other people on the slope.

That said, I applaud the safety measures that many people have taken to reduce the risk/consequence of failures in DS. There have been many close calls in the past, I can just hope that the DS safety record continues to be unblemished.

JW
who is wasting his 100th post on a rant...

[KingOfTheHill]

Joe... pardon my Lacking F3F experiance but i have personally seen quite a few planes getting stuffed because they want to shave that .10th of a second off their PB... flying LOW on the cliff face to hope to achieve it. I have also personally been on one of the flags and have had to actually jump out of the way of a plane... CLOSER to me than any DS plane has been...

Now im NOT going to make this a DS vs F3F thing because im also talking about frontside flying in general... i have been around very very unsafe flyers that were flying frontside at a rate of speed with a plane heavy enough to easily kill someone. I personaly saw a 80+ oz (Think it was closer to 100+oz) on a HIGH fast pump at fermin lock its aileron servo out and fall straight out of the sky, impacting the ground at around 80mph... this was maybe 3-4 feet off of the sidewalk where there were people walking... now im in no way saying it was Timmig's fault.. it was servo error... but im just trying to get to the point that DS is not any more dangerous than all other types of flying.. the DS'ers are just the black sheep that always get the "Better be careful" posts that IMO are not needed because we are already aware of the risks.

JOe

[joe manor]

In my opinion, DSing is way more dangerous than any other type of R/C hobbies that I have been involved in or even witnessed for that matter. Im getting more and more scared the faster we go that someone of myself might be hurt or killed. It has been on my mind a lot lately. It is a horrible thought but I cant get it out of my head. I think just the speed factor alone is enough to deem DSing more dangerous than other types of flying. If I had a choice I would rather be hit by a plane going 100mph than one going 250+.

[Bill L]

maybe it's time to build a portable barracade, or something like what was used at vincent for awhile.

I know whgile watching others ds, I have taken cover on more than one occasion

B

[KingOfTheHill]

maybe it's time to build a portable barracade, or something like what was used at vincent for awhile.

B

we already have that bill... OOPS... maybe you didnt notice that we hide behind you :D

[Bill L]

I am guilty of hiding behind other people, I usually pick the largest person...................JOe


B

[KingOfTheHill]

I am guilty of hiding behind other people, I usually pick the largest person...................JOe


B
just because timmig hasnt been around lately :D

[Bill L]

yup

[joe manor]

:p :p :p

[Joe W]

JOe,

Your discussion and examples appear to have the logic of: all activities that have any danger are of equal danger. I'm not sure that I have the same conclusion.

[target]

At least the DS spots are remote, compared to places like Fermin...
For that, I'm thankful.
Y'all be careful now (DSer's and F3Fer's!, and PSSer's...)

Target

[KingOfTheHill]

JOe,

Your discussion and examples appear to have the logic of: all activities that have any danger are of equal danger. I'm not sure that I have the same conclusion.

Joe, yes they are all dangerous... what im getting at is, your typical 4-8 guys at a DS hill DS'ing fast and then there is 15-20 people at an f3f race going fast.. 25 or so pilots like tomorrow at parker's f3f race.

i'll admit.. DS'ing is more dangerous.. but its a lot of hill with less targets. F3F and some frontside regular flying typically has more targets in smaller area's.

is riding a streetbike more dangerous than driving an SUV? YES... but less people riding streetbikes = less total deaths througout a year because there are less riders than drivers

JOe

[John Kim]

Dean clean out your PM's..

BD

Right. We can't send you any more PMs. Your allocated space is full.
He must be busy lately. He has not appeared here all week.

[Craig Toutolmin]

then don't go.... F3F and frontside are JUST as dangerous..

do you not think that an 11lb ballasted up acacia on a f3f dive in wouldnt kill someone? what about the heavy PSS planes at fermin? its all dangerous... if someone can't live with that fact, they shouldnt join in the fun...

fact is, everything is dangerous... unless your gonna wear a suit of bubble wrap, a helmet and surround your car with foam, dont leave home.

at least the DS guys are gonna make it a quick death :p better than getting nailed with a blunt nose foamie and dying of internal bleeding!. lol

JOe

The prosecutor of a wrongfull death suit would love this defense! Not only will you have to pay $$$ for your defense but also $$$$$$$$ (everything you got) for the settlement.

This thread and many others before will be part of the evidence.

[KingOfTheHill]

The prosecutor of a wrongfull death suit would love this defense! Not only will you have to pay $$$ for your defense but also $$$$$$$$ (everything you got) for the settlement.

This thread and many others before will be part of the evidence.

i'll wave to you in the courtroom them buddy :rolleyes:

[target]

I hear that the highest speed the AMA covers is 200mph, but I don't think it would cover DS anyway...

You missed some fun at Parker today, both of you.


Target

[marfish]

Joe, yes they are all dangerous... what im getting at is,

is riding a streetbike more dangerous than driving an SUV? YES... but less people riding streetbikes = less total deaths througout a year because there are less riders than drivers

JOe


I totally agree. We need to turn that statistic upside down and have way more bikes than SUV's and other gas guzzling autos. Having mostly bikes on the road would mean way fewer deaths from auto vs. bike accidents. :p

[daboz]

I was amazed at the bravado or disregard of personal safety of the eager and anxious crowd at Norco the day 301 was recorded. You would have to see it to believe how close or in harms way some of the on lookers were... a guy that I was standing alongside told me a of him witnessing a planes nose that landed near the top frontside where we were standing and it blew up on the bottom turn backside...It was a MC3 nose...loaded.....
Alan

I was the guy standing behind Dougs Truck with Alan. I also found Joe Mannors Opus-MC3 nose a few days prior. I cannot count how many planes I’ve seen wrecked at Norco! I watched my own plane blow up go over my head and splatter a few feet from the cars. DSing CAN BE extremely dangerous for onlookers and pilots. Stand on the edge of the saddle, (as pictured) as I have and will, and you are at risk of serious injury or even death. I know that sounds nasty but its true… YEA, I’ll stand there,, lol, not for long and mostly when I’m flying. Don’t get me wrong in my sports I take risks and have been injured more than most, but I like to know the risks the consequences and how to lesson them. This is one of those things, accidents should be rare but could be huge in magnitude. If someone, someday gets hit in the head or chest with one of these planes or a heavy part, its lights out for them.

Check this pic out… I tried to picture a possible DS loop with the red line as best I could. Notice in this picture taken on the 301 day, Doug’s car and his 100” Extreme (R.I.P.) to the right, Joe Mannor and Bret center and a bunch of guys standing on the peak near the DS loop. Just past the guys standing on the hill the terrain drops into a saddle. Most of the planes fly over the saddle area right after punching through the shear. The lower left of the frame where the red line is missing is where my plane blew up. From talking to Joe his plane blew up on the bottom turn too. If you take a line from the guys standing on the hill and run it in front of Dougs truck and keep going as far again right, down the front side, that’s where I found Joe M’s OPUS-MC3 nosecone. Joe told me that he and his friends spent most of their time searching the backside of the hill not the front side!! So this mulit-pound, stout, Led/carbon, bullet shaped projectile traveled over their heads and over their cars at speeds approaching 300mph,,, unnoticed! THE shear at Norco hits the planes at the bottom left of the red loop, if you’ve been there it’s easy to see. Check out the 301mph video below. Also, planes in erratic DS loops seem to be at their most out-of-control at the bottom turn too. So far, stressed planes I’ve seen blow at the bottom turn and start coming apart as they head for or past the crowd. Heavy shrapnel as it breaks up will travel tangentially in the direction of the on lookers and over the cars. It’s a crap shoot… An accident waiting to happen!

That’s what I was talking about to Alan that day. All that said I’m still going to fly Norco so don’t bother telling me not to go. BUT I will keep this in mind as I hope anyone else going up there does.

Would be nice to have a large Lexan bullet proof barrier up there… Or maybe even pile up a few large rocks, there’s no shortage.

Be safe…

Here's the vid. of Doug's 301.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93MJvPrZs_E

[raptor22]

I'm at school burning off some time between classes, and I took a look at the cost of lexan. A 6x8 panel of 16mm stock costs about $200. Considering that you may have to double up to get enough stregth, that would get expensive pretty quickly.

I think the best solution could just be a bunch of plywood nailed together and mounted at an angle....just like the one that was at vincent except much thicker. I highly doubt that an airplane would penetrate 3" of ply if it was mounted at the right angle.

[Daemon]

I think the best solution could just be a bunch of plywood nailed together and mounted at an angle....just like the one that was at vincent except much thicker. I highly doubt that an airplane would penetrate 3" of ply if it was mounted at the right angle.

That's assuming the plane behaves itself just after it has fluttered
a servo or horn loose and continues on a trajectory which ensures
a glancing blow. Nothing prevents it from turning straight into the barrier.

ian

[daboz]

Three-quarter-inch-thick Lexan is rated as bullet-proof against small arms fire... A pile of rocks would stop a lot of plane, you’d still get parts flying around. A small rock wall added to the existing rock outcropping with or without a “small” Lexan top section could make a bad nightmare just an airplane crash and a rush! :eek:

We could start just by piling a bunch of rocks in the ?”right place”?

[THUREN]

Even if it does bounce off a shield, it's still going somewhere else at almost full speed..

Everyone just has to watch their back and be cautious of whats going on...

It's like shooting a gun straight up in the sky. Yeah the bullets gonna come down, but what's the chances it will come right back down where it's shot from... I guess you could take every crash that way..

[Daemon]

It's like shooting a gun straight up in the sky. Yeah the bullets gonna come down, but what's the chances it will come right back down where it's shot from... I guess you could take every crash that way..

Cept I don't purposely point the gun directly at myself and all the
spectators with my finger on the trigger, every 5 seconds or so for the
whole day. ;)

ian

[target]

I highly doubt that an airplane would penetrate 3" of ply if it was mounted at the right angle.


It better be anchored well, or the barrier could do more harm than the plane...
Not to mention that it could end up pissing off the residents if it ends up in someones back yard.
Something to think about.

Spoiler,
Target

[THUREN]

Cept I don't purposely point the gun directly at myself and all the
spectators with my finger on the trigger, every 5 seconds or so for the
whole day. ;)

ian

Good point.... :p

And with you waiving the gun around I'd feel better behind a rock or a car or something... ;)

If someone "was" waiving a gun around all the "spectators" would be hiding. I think if you aren't flying(waiving the gun :p ) more people should hide. I know I do...

[ai3]

Wait, I thought there was suppose to be only 4-8 f3f guys monoplizing the hill while 15-20 guys wants to DS. Hmmmm......

Well, at least your argument proves which Joe has a Phd in aeronautics and well ... the other doesn't.



Joe, yes they are all dangerous... what im getting at is, your typical 4-8 guys at a DS hill DS'ing fast and then there is 15-20 people at an f3f race going fast.. 25 or so pilots like tomorrow at parker's f3f race.

i'll admit.. DS'ing is more dangerous.. but its a lot of hill with less targets. F3F and some frontside regular flying typically has more targets in smaller area's.

is riding a streetbike more dangerous than driving an SUV? YES... but less people riding streetbikes = less total deaths througout a year because there are less riders than drivers

JOe

[KingOfTheHill]

wow ai3, i feel so honored that the only posts you have ever made in the Slope/Ds forums have been threads i have started so you can try and knock me around... hmm.... personal grudge maybe? did i give you a haircut at some point in time? i bet your from Norcal or an F3F'er too..

get a life and quit thread stalking me.

JOe

[Joe W]

JOe,

I dunno, ai3 might have something in for you... but, he has a valid point. I suspect that ai3 might have the same disease that I have. It is a bit of a dichotomy, an intolerance for intolerance. Guess I should start a flame war with myself!

I also tend to get annoyed when people manipulate numbers conveniently in order to buttess their viewpoint. Without using accurate data to define and describe a viewpoint, it is just another opinion, and everyone has one of those...

PS I cannot lay claim to having a "Piled higher and Deeper" degree. I jumped into industry before getting too specialized!

[daboz]

Even if it does bounce off a shield, it's still going somewhere else at almost full speed..

Everyone just has to watch their back and be cautious of whats going on...

It's like shooting a gun straight up in the sky. Yeah the bullets gonna come down, but what's the chances it will come right back down where it's shot from... I guess you could take every crash that way..

If you keep shooting sooner or later that bullet will land on your head… lol

There’s a lot of room between standing directly in the line of fire every few seconds and relaxing behind a perfect wall. Have you stood at the peak at Norco with planes going over head @ 280? They're hittin 250+ every time I go! It’s awesome, but standing in a different area will definitely lesson your risk.

During a DS failure, pilot or equipment, most of the airplane stuff is going to leave its path close to tangentially so you know where “most” of the highspeed stuff is coming from. If a plane hits the earth at an adequate angle its energy is dissipated quickly. The ground can stop a plane real fast! :eek: The Extremes wreckage didn’t cover much area, I think Doug estimated it was going 250+. Sometimes parts fly around, turn, but were talking most of the stuff most of the time. Maybe an earth berm with a small wall could be made natural looking out of local stuff. It could for the most part already exist.

It’s not going to stop me or most people from going just because its dangerous so anything is better than nothing. It would be nice to know the guys standing at the point are safer.

I'll be looking differently at the landscape next time I go.

Chris

[ai3]

JOe,

why does it have to be 'or', why not a f3f'er from Nocal. Maybe, from Colorado, maybe from Oregon, OR even a DSer that just flies faster than you ever could with a mini-blade. I could be from Europe or South America, its all the same. You seem to think you're right about everything. Using statements which you contradict in later posts. Its like this everytime I come on here, by the way is not very often. I'm just putting out the facts.

What do you consider a 'life'. I'm not the one with 8000+ post, probably double that with old accounts.

[BeeDee]

JOe,

Its like this everytime I come on here, by the way is not very often. I'm just putting out the facts.

What do you consider a 'life'. I'm not the one with 8000+ post, probably double that with old accounts.


Well as a guy with only a quarter or so of JOes posts I have to take exception to that statement... JOe contributes alot around here, even if it is high blood pressure to the F3F guys... I must concur that the only times I have seen you post are in response to JOe.. seems to me that you have an axe to grind, and if that is the case take a number... JOe has a special knack for pushing a couple peoples buttons and then safety wiring them in the "on" position... All in all, I would prefer to see him on here rather than people who only post stuff to make trouble.. :eek:

BD :D

[KingOfTheHill]

JOe,

why does it have to be 'or', why not a f3f'er from Nocal. Maybe, from Colorado, maybe from Oregon, OR even a DSer that just flies faster than you ever could with a mini-blade. I could be from Europe or South America, its all the same. You seem to think you're right about everything. Using statements which you contradict in later posts. Its like this everytime I come on here, by the way is not very often. I'm just putting out the facts.

What do you consider a 'life'. I'm not the one with 8000+ post, probably double that with old accounts.


http://i10.tinypic.com/29nufyd.jpg :D

[invictarocks]

JOe, you're bowing that thing all wrong... Between the bridge and the finger board... BETWEEN THE BRIDGE AND THE FINGERBOARD!!!!

[marfish]

JOe,

why does it have to be 'or', why not a f3f'er from Nocal. Maybe, from Colorado, maybe from Oregon...

Lol!! I thought he meant as in, "an F3F'or" :D

[KingOfTheHill]

JOe, you're bowing that thing all wrong... Between the bridge and the finger board... BETWEEN THE BRIDGE AND THE FINGERBOARD!!!!

sorry... the cutie little asain chick tutor i had for violin didnt get to teach me much... i was fingering her bridge insted of the violin :D

[JustinONE]

Yes, it would be fatal. But I think that JOe has an excellent point about the general sloping crowd.

Most of you have seen this picture before, but it is the nose of my "light" 25oz mach dart speared 6" through hardened metal. The airplane was only flying at approximately 60 mph when this was taken.

Pretty much ANY crunchie in good wind would kill a person....frontside or otherwise.

--Alex
I remember back in the 90's when everyone use to fly at Hughes hill, there was a guy there flying 110" unimited ship. He was up real high getting ready for a speed run, when suddenly he lost all radio control. The plane flew way back into Loyola Marry Mount, and crash into a big Oak tree.. After an hour of searching we finally found the plane, the nose originally was 10" long, when we pulled the nose out of the tree we measured it penetrated into that oak 4.5" deep. The nose was solid lead for balancing. I would gues that it must of been going 85 mph before impact.

I also remember guys would hit those small birds doing speed runs on the ridge, there was nothing left but feathers and pink mist, lol, so you DS'rs better keep an eye on those new pilots and watch out for the old crazy ones with slow reflexes. :eek: