Shelley Foss F/G Hull

[Tug Guy]

I was just wondering if anyone was making a 36 inch fiberglass hull for the Dumas Shelley Foss Kit?

Don

[smart_racer]

I have not heard of anybody yet, that would be a good choice for a f/g hull

[Tug Guy]

I know of one lazy old builder that would buy one. :D

Don

[smart_racer]

I would be interested, I have built the Dumas 24" + 36" Shellies, the hulls can be a pain, but I do like the boats

[keith S]

smart racer, I beleive that Ron B has a mold for that size of the Shelly's. Might even be the 48" one. Have to double check.

[smart_racer]

smart racer, I beleive that Ron B has a mold for that size of the Shelly's. Might even be the 48" one. Have to double check.
Thanks - Steve

[Tug Guy]

Please do if he does have one I would like to talk to him.

Don


smart racer, I beleive that Ron B has a mold for that size of the Shelly's. Might even be the 48" one. Have to double check.

[Soar Master]

Me too, I will purchase a 48 inch hull set if he has any, Thanks. :D :D :D

[Tug Guy]

You are in luck then as that size seems close to be the size he makes in this hull. Do you know how to contact Ron?

Don



Me too, I will purchase a 48 inch hull set if he has any, Thanks. :D :D :D

[der kapitan]

You are in luck then as that size seems close to be the size he makes in this hull. Do you know how to contact Ron?

Don

Hi Don,

If all else fails, our pal up in Rochester, N.Y. may have one stashed away. After all, he seems to have at least one of everything else---.

[TugboatTom]

Dumas actually has a 48" of the Shelley Foss. Comes with the F/G hull and plans. Im not sure if they still make it though. They updated their website. Not sure if you will find it there.

[Tug Guy]

Do you think he might have a 36 in hull stashed away?

Don


Hi Don,

If all else fails, our pal up in Rochester, N.Y. may have one stashed away. After all, he seems to have at least one of everything else---.

[Tug Guy]

Dumas themselves doesn't have any fiberglass hulls anymore. The only way you might get a Dumas kit is if someone has one to sell or if you are really lucky and find a store with old inventory.


Don



Dumas actually has a 48" of the Shelley Foss. Comes with the F/G hull and plans. Im not sure if they still make it though. They updated their website. Not sure if you will find it there.

[smart_racer]

Just searching the net for Ron Burchett information. check this out (price) www.superartisticbc.ca - type in "Fire Boat" and click Search, not sure of the language

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Just searching the net for Ron Burchett information. check this out (price) www.superartisticbc.ca - type in "Fire Boat" and click Search, not sure of the language

David Haynes has "exclusive rights" to produce models of the LA fireboat #2, and
he is not afraid to exercise those rights. When I was looking for information, I
ran across John Vanderheiden's website. (http://www.hrfsbo.com/fireboat/). The fireboat was only four months
delivered, and it was all anyone could do to find information on the boat.
Mr Haynes was glad to provide images of his model, and offer to make parts
for a fee. But even as John Vanderheiden and I chatted over e-mail, John
recieved a message from Mr. Haynes stating that John was not allowed to produce or
sell parts for the fireboat. Granted, neither of us were out to produce any
more than a model for ourselves, but it seemed a bit presumptious of Mr. Haynes. :(

Ron Burchett runs a marine tank testing and design service in Ladysmith, Vancouver Island BC.
His focus is models and marine design, not model kits. But the
kits or semi kits he does make available are exceptional.
______________________________

Oh, and if Ron stops in I need a "small" winch, or at least need to verify dimensions of his "small" winch.

[smart_racer]

Ron Burchett built the original from Robert Allen's plans/design? I wonder how many boats David Haynes has sold @ $65,000.00cdn...more than my first house cost!

[keith S]

Don Brown, sent a PM to you this a.m.

[Tug Guy]

Just sent one back to you.
Thanks
Don

Don Brown, sent a PM to you this a.m.

[der kapitan]

David Haynes has "exclusive rights" to produce models of the LA fireboat #2, and
he is not afraid to exercise those rights. When I was looking for information, I
ran across John Vanderheiden's website. (http://www.hrfsbo.com/fireboat/). The fireboat was only four months
delivered, and it was all anyone could do to find information on the boat.
Mr Haynes was glad to provide images of his model, and offer to make parts
for a fee. But even as John Vanderheiden and I chatted over e-mail, John
recieved a message from Mr. Haynes stating that John was not allowed to produce or
sell parts for the fireboat. Granted, neither of us were out to produce any
more than a model for ourselves, but it seemed a bit presumptious of Mr. Haynes. :(

Mr. Haynes sounds like a rather mean-spirited individual, but he may be overstepping his bounds.

If the fireboat in question was purchased with public funds, (tax money) it by definition belongs to the people, not some arrogant bully with a lawyer. So what are his "exclusive rights" to public property?

[Shaun Hendricks]

The city can control things such as 'exclusive rights' for commercial production. Mr. Haynes would probably need an exclusivity contract stating that specifically though. You should be able to demand a copy of that contract from him.

For personal use (you just create the model for yourself and never sell it), you can make LA Fireboat #2 all you want. It's just like a painter can paint a picture of some copyrighted picture. It's your interpretation of the ship. The arguments to stop you get stupid after a certain point. You can claim yours is not a model but a real, functioning fireboat that is only intended for small fires. You are honoring the firecrews of Los Angeles by painting it up like LA Fireboat #2. Now, how stupid would the lawyers look fighting that assertion? Of course, the assertion is stupid in the first place but you could demonstrate the boat's firefighting ability for a court. You could send a 'thank you for your service' letter to the crews of the LA Fireboat #2. So your point would be totally proven- dumb as it may be.

This is just one of many ways around Mr. Haynes ridiculous assertions that he can somehow control a person building a model for themselves. Paramount has tried this with Trekkies and various Star Trek stuff. It blew up in their faces. Now they embrace the Trek clan and their creativity. They've even encorporated some things back into the series. The only thing they can control is production of items for sale, not personal use.

[Kmot]

That is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. A 'modeler' has exclusive rights to a boat that he did not design or build. Yeah right. If I made parts for sale, I would like to see that clown try to stop me!

[LtDoc]

der kapitan,
Two ways of 'looking' at that. First one is that all places 'owned' by the 'public' are not public areas. There are 'public' areas and 'private' areas no matter who owns them. After satisfying a few requirements, most public areas are open to the general public to use. Not so for private areas 'owned' by the public, without very specific and 'good' reasons.
The second is that no matter what the 'property' owned by the public, there are a number of reasons why it may not be legal (or a good idea) for the public to reproduce that property. One such property, other than the fireboat but in the same catagory, would be vehicles owned by a 'public' company/city/state/whatever. That could depend a lot on who or what the public entity bought/got the thingy from. As in a contractual agreement.
Having said all that, I do agree that the designer/builder of the fireboat is being sort of 'anal retentive' when the fireboat was being duplicated by an R/C modeler! If the 'scale' was going to be something close to 1:1, or 'superfragilistickily' exact, then I'd have to agree with the designer/builder, but I don't think that was the scale intended. (Uh, was it??)
- 'Doc

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Apparently there was an incident with the designer of the LA Fireboat #2.
And there are apparently Non discloser agreements surrounding the incident.
All anyone can really say, is that Robert Allan LTD marine architects used to
be more than willing to sell plans to boat modelers. However one such exchange
to a modeler led to the plans being sold to a Chinese shipyard, and the
shipyard began construction of boats using proprietary information and plans.

For that and other reasons, today it is next to impossible to get plans for any
modern tug in the industry. I am sure Mr Haynes was sensitve to this issue.

[Shaun Hendricks]

So the shipyard sent a full copy of the actual builders plans to a modeler? Wow... that would be a significant breach of Intellectual Property security.

It's one thing to send a modeler a 3,4,5 or 6 view. Let the modeler determine the interior configuration. To send something with all the bulkheads and diagrams laid out is entirely different, at least in my opinion.

I could see publishing builders plans of older or less important ships and boats. A modern boat that a company needs to keep their trade secrets in... I wouldn't expect a company to send anything but external view shots.

Maybe you could just ask for pictures instead of plans?

[keith S]

Used to be easy to get a hold of those plans as the companies and architecs were happy to see a model of their work. As Umi stated, 1 incident screwed it up for the rest of the honest modelers ( although I have my ways some times to gain access).

[der kapitan]

So the shipyard sent a full copy of the actual builders plans to a modeler? Wow... that would be a significant breach of Intellectual Property security.

It's one thing to send a modeler a 3,4,5 or 6 view. Let the modeler determine the interior configuration. To send something with all the bulkheads and diagrams laid out is entirely different, at least in my opinion.

I could see publishing builders plans of older or less important ships and boats. A modern boat that a company needs to keep their trade secrets in... I wouldn't expect a company to send anything but external view shots.

Maybe you could just ask for pictures instead of plans?

Shaun, If the shipyard sent out a full copy of builders' plans to Joe Doaks, they should be nominated for the Darwin Awards. :D A very careless move, especially in this age of Chinese plaigiarism, :eek: as Umi pointed out.

What the heck, all a guy wants to do is build a model fireboat! :confused: And then he gets some person claiming exclusivity threatening him with a lawsuit. :(

As has been said here in this thread, any legal action initiated by Mr. Haynes or other parties would probably be dismissed by a court of law as a joke.

So, Kmot, Umi, et al, go ahead and build if you want to. Whomever plaintiff chooses to sue, he will either go broke in legal costs, or die of old age waiting for a settlement---. :D

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

I think we're ok, As long as we don't "Sell" any parts. ;)
I have given away Fire monitors to several people. But they are not
"Los Angeles Fire boat #2 monitors". They are Skum Monitors from the Netherlands ;)
No need to sell them,... I could use a good 2-1/2 wide winch though... :p

[killick]

It could get even worse...

Don't try and sell any pictures, decals, or custom painted "scale" reproductions of ANY "Union Pacific" locomotives, cars or equipment! This was recently a major topic on several RR forums: you must now pay UP "royalties" before marketting any items bearing their logo or "Company Livery". Imagine having kitmakers having to pay Chris Craft, Donzi, Scarab, etc --and being forced to pass the costs on to us modellers!

Ain't life fun?

Paul.

[Kmot]

It has become the new thing. The lawyers have run out of schemes to heist us for money so now the latest buzz word in lawyerland apparently is manufacturer and logo schemes to heist us for our bucks. Even things that were paid for with public tax dollars, such as the old WWII planes are now part of this scheme. Lockheed is shucking off bucks now from anyone that wants to make a P-38 for example.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4806

[der kapitan]

It has become the new thing. The lawyers have run out of schemes to heist us for money so now the latest buzz word in lawyerland apparently is manufacturer and logo schemes to heist us for our bucks. Even things that were paid for with public tax dollars, such as the old WWII planes are now part of this scheme. Lockheed is shucking off bucks now from anyone that wants to make a P-38 for example.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4806

There is a limit to what lawsuits and judgements can do. For example, the
Brown and Goodman families won a monetary judgement against O.J. Simpson, but have yet to collect a nickel. For all their threats and arm-waving, the lawyers have not been able to tap into his resources.

The corporations can threaten with dire consequences, but that takes money,
legal expertise and time. What fools would go after little guys like Kmot, or Umi, or myself, where there is no hope of extracting big bucks, but a big potential of generating bad press for themselves?

I have had threatening letters from attorneys on various subjects in the past,
and have either responded harshly or ignored them. Failing to achieve the desired reaction, they eventually went away---.

[jeepers1940]

killick - "Ain't life fun."

Yeah, thanks lawyers!
Bill

[RCheroske]

If you really want to blame anybody, you can blame Harley Davidson. HD was struggling for a while and discovered that they could make money selling licenses to their trademark. Nowadays, most of the money that they make is off their trademarked items and licenses. Brilliant marketing strategy since not everybody can afford a Harley, but they can afford a Harley do-rag to wipe their noses. So now everybody is copying HD trademark policies.

If Mr Haynes purchased the rights to the Fireboat #2 trademarks then in order to protect his rights, he has to aggressively protect his rights or he will lose them. Now there is nothing wrong with making a model of Fireboat #2, anybody can do that but you just can't sell it or distribute it. Not even on Ebay.

Guess how I found out. I tried to sell an item on Ebay that had a beer label on it and the beer company came after me. Did a LOT of research and with the help of a lawyer, got the beer company to leave me alone. I proved that the item was commercially available and that I couldn't be held responsible for something that I bought in a store.

Another thing, Dumas has a license to use the Chris Craft logo. But if you scratch build a model of a Chris Craft and try to sell it on Ebay, you could be liable. Same for Garwood or any other trademark unless you're absolutely sure that the trademark is public domain.

[killick]

---And once upon a time, all these companies were just happy to have "Exposure" ---*sigh*.

[Kmot]

What beer label?

Budweiser? (http://buy.ebay.com/budweiser)

Miller? (http://collectibles.search.ebay.com/Miller_Breweriana-Beer_W0QQcatrefZC12QQfromZR40QQsacatZ562)

Coors? (http://buy.ebay.com/coors)

I am really interested in your story of why a beer company went after you for selling an item with their beer label on it. As you can see, thousands of people do it every day on ebay.

[der kapitan]

Cheroske has shown that the bullies and their little wimp lawyers can be beaten. Isn't
American justice great when it is in it's pure form?

I learned a long time ago that the best way to discourage a bully is to stand firm, and smash him in the chops with all you've got.

[RCheroske]

Kmot, Yes, thousands of people sell LICENSED items on Ebay, the beer companies have banks of lawyers who have nothing better to do but sit there and scan Ebay looking for items that are not in their database. The original manufacturer of my item apparently didn't have a license and I got tapped. The reason I'm not mentioning the item or the beer company is because it costs me $40 for my lawyer to answer the phone everytime they call me. They read these forums.

[RCheroske]

Yep, Der Kapitan, but the best way to fight fire is with fire. If you have any questions about trademarks or infringments, then see a lawyer. A pretty lawyer saved my bottom. :D

[Kmot]

Wow, this all just seems so bizarre to me. Sorry for the trouble RC.

[killick]

It's easy to stand up and face a "Bully" if you know how....The schoolyard is one thing;
but buying something, then selling it on eBay--then having some Big Company's Lawyers pounding on you --, is a w-h-o-l-e new Ball game...

Cherokee isn't being paranoid, BTW-- a small rural high school put a "Yosemite Sam" cartoon on a poster promoting a Sports Day: Would you believe they got a "Pay up, or cease-and-desist" call from Warner Bros????

(They "desisted".....)

[der kapitan]

It's easy to stand up and face a "Bully" if you know how....The schoolyard is one thing;
but buying something, then selling it on eBay--then having some Big Company's Lawyers pounding on you --, is a w-h-o-l-e new Ball game...

Cherokee isn't being paranoid, BTW-- a small rural high school put a "Yosemite Sam" cartoon on a poster promoting a Sports Day: Would you believe they got a "Pay up, or cease-and-desist" call from Warner Bros????

(They "desisted".....)

Yes, a school board is bound by local rules, and would have to cave in under such pressure.

It makes one wonder what price tag Warner Brothers would put on a little
harmless school poster? And with all their millions, why pick on a small rural school?

Probably their lawyers had nothing else to do, and wanted to justify thier
fat salaries and miserable existence, so they selected a soft target---.

This "victory" must've made them feel really big.

[Shaun Hendricks]

It's easy to stand up and face a "Bully" if you know how....The schoolyard is one thing;
but buying something, then selling it on eBay--then having some Big Company's Lawyers pounding on you --, is a w-h-o-l-e new Ball game...

Cherokee isn't being paranoid, BTW-- a small rural high school put a "Yosemite Sam" cartoon on a poster promoting a Sports Day: Would you believe they got a "Pay up, or cease-and-desist" call from Warner Bros????

(They "desisted".....)

LOL! Only because they didn't know the law. Schools are exempted from copyright law under the "Fair Use" clause in Title 17. They could've made Yosemite Sam cupcakes and sold them at a bake sale and no court in this country would've even blinked at it. The negative press alone would've killed WB. Unless the school REALLY crosses the line, they can copy just about anything. Ever notice how it's okay to photocopy ANYTHING at school (textbooks, novels, posters) for 'education' purposes? If you can tie it to licensed education, you can copy it.

[der kapitan]

LOL! Only because they didn't know the law. Schools are exempted from copyright law under the "Fair Use" clause in Title 17. They could've made Yosemite Sam cupcakes and sold them at a bake sale and no court in this country would've even blinked at it. The negative press alone would've killed WB. Unless the school REALLY crosses the line, they can copy just about anything. Ever notice how it's okay to photocopy ANYTHING at school (textbooks, novels, posters) for 'education' purposes? If you can tie it to licensed education, you can copy it.

Thanks for that point of law, Shaun. Now, all each of us have to do is become a small private educational institution---. :D

What a good idea--- ;)

[Aerominded]

It could get even worse...

Imagine having kitmakers having to pay Chris Craft, Donzi, Scarab, etc --and being forced to pass the costs on to us modellers!




But, they do! :eek: I imagine Dumas' license to use the C*C name didn't come free, for example...

[Shaun Hendricks]

Thanks for that point of law, Shaun. Now, all each of us have to do is become a small private educational institution---. :D

What a good idea--- ;)

Trust me... if there was a way to get away with it we'd all be the school of something... :rolleyes:

Just pointing out that even in the captialist capital of the world, there are exceptions to just about everything. I'm all for intellectual property rights and such but sending a cease and desist for a school election poster is stupid beyond all belief, especially when the copyright lawyers should know better. Talk about justifying your own existence in a company... sheesh.

[stockneley]

Dumas actually has a 48" of the Shelley Foss. Comes with the F/G hull and plans. Im not sure if they still make it though. They updated their website. Not sure if you will find it there.

I just purchased a 36" kit direct from Dumas as they are closing them out ($96). I inquired about a 36" or 48" f/g kit and they said they do not have any nor will they.

[Tug Guy]

You may have not known this but Dumas stopped making any F/G kits a while back. E Bay is your only chance now for a hull unless you want a larger scale hull. I believe one is made by Ron Burchett.

Don



I just purchased a 36" kit direct from Dumas as they are closing them out ($96). I inquired about a 36" or 48" f/g kit and they said they do not have any nor will they.