New Thermal Duration Task

[Fly2High]

Guys,

I posted this at the ESL website but feel it might be of interest to those outside the Eastern Soaring League:

I have noticed that many pilots are really enjoying flying in hand launch competitions. One of the interesting things I find is that you are required to do more than one thing per round.

I was wondering if something like this could be adopted for our unlimited thermal duration conpetitions.

For example, lets say a window is offered but it is made say 1-2 min longer than the actual sum total flight time. Also let's say that you will need to complete 2 durations for that round. It could be 2 the same (7 and 7) or one short and the other longer (6 and 12) or what ever.

The extra time in the window would allow for a pilot to go from the landing zone back to the winches. Landing points might count for both flights.

I think this might be an interesting concept to develop. Yes, it has some bugs and we might need to fly with retrievers but this will help to eliminate the 'I had a bad round' comments and it will introduce the need to use the current flight to maximize the subsequent flights. This could still be flown man on man. Maybe since the first guy is giving feedback of where to fly or not to fly based on their performance the window time should not start until the last guy launches. think about it. If 3 guys go up before you and each go in three different directions, they are telling the last guy about the air they are all in. If they are all doing bad, the 4th guy would know to try the last 1/4th of the sky and might do better just because he/she is last.

Also I might suggest letting them launch as often as the window allows or limit it to a fixed number of launches per window.

This could get real interesting. You will now need to read the air for this flight as well as the next!! It would add the possibility for time to read the air you are currently faced with as well.

What do you think?? Can we make this work? How? I think it could add a new fascet to Thermal Duration.

I think this could work. Maybe we won't use it for every round but one or two a day so that we can still get in a number of rounds. Maybe the duration doesn't need to be that long for the two flights or one can be a very short 2 or 3 min. one

Let me know what you think!!!

Here is a link to the ESL posting:
http://forums.flyesl.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=269

thanks

Sincerely,
Frank N.

[rdwoebke]

The thing I would not like about it is at a normal contest a pilot does not have control over the launch equipment. A launch equipment failure could put you in a bind. In hand launch, you have control over all your equipment (your body).

Perhaps instead you could take a lead from F3J. F3J is a 10 (or 15) minute task and you are allowed one relight, but only the 2nd flight would count. This way you could fly the round out, or if a pilot is having a bad flight they could choose to relight.

Just a thought though. It is all good and if you try out the 7 & 7 thing or whatever and it is fun just let us know.

Ryan

[Fly2High]

At our contest we usually have a spare winch. If there is equipment failure at the start - line break, etc. that group must land and restart the group. Otherwise, rules would need to be made to handle the specifics.

Once a round is started, anyone can go to any winch that is available. this way, if a line breaks in the middle there are still enough winches to go around. line breaks would need to be flown once a round is started. The only situation that might require group restart is if the line boggs up the remaining winches.

I think it might be fun. Will have to see if the local club would like to try it one weekend and see how it goes. If it pans out I will keep you posted.

Frank

[jrgospod]

Maybe I do not understand this. I assume you are planning this for unlimited. On any given nice “normal” thermal flying day most super planes would not have a problem achieving 7 min durations because they can almost do that from a good zoom. If you count landing points you just add another chance for the super planes to dork or use a landing arresting device to get extra points. This would give the pilot more launches and landings and less thermal flying. That is the main reason that I don’t fly contests now. On any given contest day I’m lucky to get one hour of flying (read thermal) time. If I read this correct I would get even less thermal time and more launch and land time. I’ll just take my woody and go and fly the next day with friends and have more flying (read thermal) in 2-3 hours than a contest would give me all day.

John

[Fly2High]

jrgospod,
Thanks for the feedback.

What I am hoping from this posting is to see what others feel might be ways to make thermal duration contests more challenging for those, like yourself, that might find the duration portion too easy or too boring. I am hoping to encourage people to post some ideas as to what they might feel would be interesting to add. I know that when I went to a hlg contest and the round task was 1min, 1min, 1min, 5min , everyone looked around and said 'FIVE MINUTES' but after doing it, it was a thrilling fun round. I wasn't pointing out actual times to fly b/c current conditions will dictate that. Maybe it would be a 10 and 20 min flight, I don't know.

All I am suggesting is that maybe there are other types of rounds that are possible for a TD event that we might not have explored. My interest is only to see how we can mix things up a bit. Maybe pilots, like yourself, who found regular TD not so interesting/challenging will then want to make a comeback.

Maybe we should expand this thread to include othr readers suggestions for a TD round. I am not saying I don't enjoy it the way it is, I do. I was just wondering if anyone had ideas for other types of tasks.

Either way, thanks for the feedback.

Frank

[jrgospod]

Frank,

If you look on RCSE you will see a current thread on trying to equalize the launch height. That is one pet peeve of a friend mine that will not join the local club. Right or wrong the feeling is that the super planes are buying advantage by having high $ planes with machined airfoils and gorilla spars. Planes that launch to the moon and dork so hard that most balsa planes would be in sticks. One thing that could be done is going back to the lower power winch and lower strength line to limit the strength wars, but this will never happen. With the super planes the need for energy control on landing, and pedal tapping/management on launch are skill not all that important. Add to that the killer accurate airfoils and you have a “non-competition" competition when the supers are matched with the stick-built planes. The argument has been that anyone can buy the technology (Not True for some, not wanted for others) or that the pilots are the best and would win even with a 2M-foam glider. All that can be argued be you can’t argue the fact that it has driven untold numbers to pilots outside clubs and to making the switch to EP gliders that don’t need a club. I still go to club contests for the knowledge I can gain and the fun I can have as a spectator/timer. As for flying, I fly almost every day during the summer except for most contests days. Contest flying is not fun for me. I know that others will take this as a put down of the current TD system. It is not. It is just the acknowledgement of facts that some people like to fly and thermal and are not interested in competing with others. I do more work for our club than most others in it (of course excluding the officers) because I enjoy attending the contest, shooting the sh%@ with the pilots, and timing the flights. I don’t expect then to change for people like me that don’t enjoy flying the format and the disparity in equipment. I just hope that they can accept the fact that others can enjoy the sport in different ways.

What you have proposed may well be very attractive to the current TD set. You often hear that the current contests are “launch and land” contest and adding additional opportunities to compete on those elements will no doubt be of high interest to some. I wish you good luck with you contest format and will watch to see how it all plays out.

Sorry for the long-winded reply.
John

[Chipwillis]

Frank,

If you look on RCSE you will see a current thread on trying to equalize the launch height. That is one pet peeve of a friend mine that will not join the local club. Right or wrong the feeling is that the super planes are buying advantage by having high $ planes with machined airfoils and gorilla spars. Planes that launch to the moon and dork so hard that most balsa planes would be in sticks. One thing that could be done is going back to the lower power winch and lower strength line to limit the strength wars, but this will never happen. With the super planes the need for energy control on landing, and pedal tapping/management on launch are skill not all that important. Add to that the killer accurate airfoils and you have a “non-competition" competition when the supers are matched with the stick-built planes. The argument has been that anyone can buy the technology (Not True for some, not wanted for others) or that the pilots are the best and would win even with a 2M-foam glider. All that can be argued be you can’t argue the fact that it has driven untold numbers to pilots outside clubs and to making the switch to EP gliders that don’t need a club. I still go to club contests for the knowledge I can gain and the fun I can have as a spectator/timer. As for flying, I fly almost every day during the summer except for most contests days. Contest flying is not fun for me. I know that others will take this as a put down of the current TD system. It is not. It is just the acknowledgement of facts that some people like to fly and thermal and are not interested in competing with others. I do more work for our club than most others in it (of course excluding the officers) because I enjoy attending the contest, shooting the sh%@ with the pilots, and timing the flights. I don’t expect then to change for people like me that don’t enjoy flying the format and the disparity in equipment. I just hope that they can accept the fact that others can enjoy the sport in different ways.

What you have proposed may well be very attractive to the current TD set. You often hear that the current contests are “launch and land” contest and adding additional opportunities to compete on those elements will no doubt be of high interest to some. I wish you good luck with you contest format and will watch to see how it all plays out.

Sorry for the long-winded reply.
John
John,

Have you ever flown in a OVSS man on man contest?
It is unlimited class- with that said an Oly II will have a hard time competing against an Icon for instance. But when you get into a competitive plane, the contests are NOT launch and land. OVSS has done a great job of having extended timed rounds and he who launches highest doesnt always win. The landing points excuse is just that. In order to land consistantly you have to practice. Sure the higher end planes can take a dork and not break in half. That is some peoples technique, but I dont think it is everyones technique.

If there is to be a level playing field, then there needs to be a one design class, with a set of rules to itself. I won't go and retype all I did about my ideas on the subject but it is on RCSE.

[rdwoebke]

John,

Have you ever flown in a OVSS man on man contest?

His club (LOFT) runs the Bob Steele Memorial (MOM and part of the OVSS series) in Ft. Wayne. John is one of the folks that helps run the event each year. Ironically, I have never made that OVSS event although I have flown at least half a dozen LOFT club contests. John was also good friends with Mike Remus, who has since passed away and the OVSS season trophy is named after. He has had quite a lot of exposure to MOM contests at the Nats, Bob Steele, and Fall Roundup.

John is kind of anti MOM and prefers the ladder type events or at least open winch events. Ironically once again, I have not flown a ladder event off a winch (but have flown it quite a bit in hand launch). Some day I'd like to make one of the woodcrafters where I know Ray runs a ladder event.

Chip, if you parlay that recent F3B winch you aquired into interest in the F3B event, and if the team selection is held again in Muncie, I suspect you might see John there serving as a helper (he spent at least 1 day at the last team selection helping).

Does this sum it up John? :-)

I personally like the OVSS series and think it has done quite a bit to generate contesting interest in the midwest. JR's support in prizes has really increased the number of folks competing and the series encourages folks to try to attend other events in other states. So I like it. :-) The only OVSS events I have never attended are the Bob Steele and the Gateway. I'm hoping to make the Gateway this year (I say that every year). I really should since it is only about 3.5 hours away from me (southern Indiana).

Anyway, back on topic a bit, I think about any contest format could be fun, and encourage folks to try new things out.

Ryan

[O.L. Adcock]

Frank, I enjoy any format that challenges my skill and those that require some stratagy and decision making, all the better.....

I've been out of the sport for 15+ years so it's interesting to see what folks are arguing over now days. I got into thermal soaring and going back to it cause I like the thought of tape measures and stop watches determining winners instead of subjective panels of judges. The debates between store bought moldies vs meticulously crafted woodies in my eyes coming from the outside sounds like sour grapes to me. Seperate classes was designed to level the performances differences which I fully understand but at the same time part of the challenge is to fly a ship that's competitive in the formats available. I'm a builder...I love to build...I love to fly....If someone moldie can out launch my plane that I built from hand drawn butcher paper plans and Home Depot foam, then I either need better thermaling skills or I need to aquire better building skills...Either way it's on me...Not the format, wench power, or availability of store bought planes. John mentioned the "launch and land" contests.....That's a problem......IMO, any task under 7 minuets (5 for sure) is a contest between planes, not the pilots and the fewer flights flown becomes no better then a coin toss of who's luckiest with the good air bad air. Increasing task times and increasing the number of tasks will sort out the better thermal pilots more so then limiting equipment will....O.L.

[Chipwillis]

His club (LOFT) runs the Bob Steele Memorial (MOM and part of the OVSS series) in Ft. Wayne. John is one of the folks that helps run the event each year. Ironically, I have never made that OVSS event although I have flown at least half a dozen LOFT club contests. John was also good friends with Mike Remus, who has since passed away and the OVSS season trophy is named after. He has had quite a lot of exposure to MOM contests at the Nats, Bob Steele, and Fall Roundup.

John is kind of anti MOM and prefers the ladder type events or at least open winch events. Ironically once again, I have not flown a ladder event off a winch (but have flown it quite a bit in hand launch). Some day I'd like to make one of the woodcrafters where I know Ray runs a ladder event.

Chip, if you parlay that recent F3B winch you aquired into interest in the F3B event, and if the team selection is held again in Muncie, I suspect you might see John there serving as a helper (he spent at least 1 day at the last team selection helping).

Does this sum it up John? :-)

I personally like the OVSS series and think it has done quite a bit to generate contesting interest in the midwest. JR's support in prizes has really increased the number of folks competing and the series encourages folks to try to attend other events in other states. So I like it. :-) The only OVSS events I have never attended are the Bob Steele and the Gateway. I'm hoping to make the Gateway this year (I say that every year). I really should since it is only about 3.5 hours away from me (southern Indiana).

Anyway, back on topic a bit, I think about any contest format could be fun, and encourage folks to try new things out.

Ryan
Ok, so I get the gist of anti man on man. No problem.

The other viewpoint is this. I have flown in contests wtih open winch and the major problem I have with that is the amount of sandbaggers waiting on someone else to find lift. This happens in MOM too.. where one guy hits a boomer and suddenly everyone is there too, but at least with mass launching the air for that flight group is the same. When lift cycles thru and you get tasked to launch into a bad period as may happen with open winch, then it makes it more up to pure luck in scoring in my opinion.

I have flown ladder in DLG contests and love it! It is very fun and would be great if it were feasable to include a round long enough that you had to land twice and continue for instance. Then you run into the huge logistics problem of winch line retreival, etc.

I respect those people who hand craft their airplanes, no problem at all with that. If there is a class for that, then maybe I would participate as well.

The problem is that of the classes themselves, that is why I have been speaking of a one design contest to level the field.

To me, if you enter an unlimited class event, then you can say nothing about someone spending 2500 for his launch to the moon plane and can land by flying it vertical to the spot. If the current rules allow it, then it is fair game.

Nostalgia and RES classes are there for those who choose to participate.

Standard class is all but dead.

2 meter class... I can't speak for it.

I would love to have 15 min rounds all the time, but only in MOM format.

I figured out average sink for dead air for my Shadow. It is around 100 fpm. Get a 600' launch and that is 6minutes. Typical morning rounds where lift hasn't developed may tend to favor the guy launching highest. I was launching 450 feet at the fall round up and way below the other guys with my Ava. I am not going to complain about it, because that was what happened and that is what I was flying. The wood planes were on the ground first. Now had it been all RES or NOS class, then the spread from launch height would be narrower.

Maybe the solution is to have more RES/Nos contests?

I am throwing out ideas, and I really want to reiterate, that flying in contests is alot of fun. Hell, I have been in the top 10 and had great fun, or be in the bottom 10 and had just as much fun.

I think we may be forgetting that at times.

[O.L. Adcock]

I'm all for different classes based on design/materials...within reason....Classes and formats are published so if I show up with a knife to a gun fight, I'm not going to complain about the outcome! :)....O.L.

[Fly2High]

One thing that I have been noticing is that planes are getting lighter. Maybe we should set a weight limit so to remove some of the benefit of flying the newest, latest and greatest. Weight is a factor in many sports and so maybe it should be in ours.

Maybe it should be wingloading. I don't know. All I am looking to do is add a bit more fun and , if it is possible, to make the format more competitve. Adding more rounds does help eliminate certain factors but it becomes a problem for Sunday contests when you want the last round to start no later than say 1 or 2 pm to allow out of towners to make it home at a reasonable hour. To me the only thing left is to make the rounds more challenging. Look at golf. Limits are placed on the ball and clubs to make the sport still a challenging sport. I don't know if weighing jockeys are done for this reason but maybe it is (I don't know). Baseball has limits on bat stiffness and bat weight I believe. Maybe we have had enough technology to now require it in our sport as well. I know some old planes still in our club that would be made more competitive if their heavier weights weren't the reason they're not used for competition anymore.

I appreciate all the viewpoints and comments. It is fruitful to hear what others have seen and done.

Thanks again.

Frank

[O.L. Adcock]

Maybe so Frank???? But at what point does limits stiffel innovation and creativity?? Got to keep the fun in it but for some the search for lighter, faster, higher is part of the fun. Personally I enjoy watching a nobody show up and enter a 2M in the open class and take home all the marbles! :).......O.L.

[rdwoebke]

Personally I enjoy watching a nobody show up and enter a 2M in the open class and take home all the marbles! :).......O.L.

I'd love to see that too. But at least in my neck of the woods I have not seen a person enter a 2 Meter in an open class event and win it in at least 6 years.

Last year, I was flying a 2 meter in open class events, and did not crack the top half. :-) But I keep trying. If the rain lets up at all this weekend I'll fly said 2 meter with the speed 400 configuration.

Ryan

[jrgospod]

John,
If there is to be a level playing field, then there needs to be a one design class, with a set of rules to itself. I won't go and retype all I did about my ideas on the subject but it is on RCSE.

I did see some of that info and agree that it sounds like a good idea. Ray is doing a one class woody contest at WoodCrafters this year and if I had the shop area and the Paragon I’m working (stalled) on done I might consider it. It would be fun to all fly the same planes even with Don H. (multi LSF level V achiever) already committed to fly in it.






His club (LOFT) runs the Bob Steele Memorial (MOM and part of the OVSS series) in Ft. Wayne.
Ryan

You forgot the co-sponsor of the fall roundup. Lots of Ft. Wayne people are helping make that happen along with the Muncie club.






John is kind of anti MOM and prefers the ladder type events or at least open winch events
Ryan

I think you missed that one a little bit. I personally don’t like to fly MOM but see the value for the hobby. Face it. That is the thing that is keeping this section of the hobby from extinction right now. Without Marc G. and OVSS the participation in Midwest soaring would be almost nonexistent. I don’t have to enjoy the contests by flying in them to enjoy them. My hope is that woodcrafter type of soaring events will make a revival (w/o the MOM, you know, the fun fly part of WoodCrafters where nobody give a rats hind quarters much who “wins”) so the people that just enjoy going to the field and flying for the fun of flying will have as many venues as OVSS.

Ryan is correct that I prefer open winch over MOM because I believe that part of soaring is picking your air. Sure others can follow but if that is what gives them enjoyment then more power to them. Everyone knows who found the lift and that person gets the respect. I like the WC ladder events even more than the open winch. You can fly whenever you want, as much as you want, and for as long as you want. I have over flown my target minutes many times just because it was too good of air to leave and I was having toooooo much fun. Now that is soaring for me.

The one thing that Ryan didn’t mention is that avoid winches. I don’t like winches much. I’ve never set my mind to learning them. It may be because I see them as unnecessary and only adding to the super plane strength wars. I can and have launched from then (I’m not real good at it). I spend all my practice time using and optimizing my planes for hi-start even with a club winch in my possession. Just call me crazy.


John

[rdwoebke]

You forgot the co-sponsor of the fall roundup. Lots of Ft. Wayne people are helping make that happen along with the Muncie club.


Actually, I had not. But I was not 100% sure you always went down to FRU to help (I seem to remember you being there at the one I attended in 2005). I was pretty sure you did though, so I left some of this for you to chime back in about.

:-)

Either way, I sort of took the this thread OT, so to the thread starter, please accept my appology.

Ryan

[Fly2High]

Someone suggested to me that if we were to do this as an open winch, you might be able to do a multitask round.

The way one could run it would be to tell a heat that they have a duration of time, say 1/2 hr to complete a 10 min and a 15 min duration. This would leave 5 mins to return to the winches, repair if a prob. occurs or line break and read the air.

With this senario, air reading skills will be tested.

Frank

[Fly2High]

Ryan, no problem.

[jrgospod]

Someone suggested to me that if we were to do this as an open winch, you might be able to do a multitask round.

The way one could run it would be to tell a heat that they have a duration of time, say 1/2 hr to complete a 10 min and a 15 min duration. This would leave 5 mins to return to the winches, repair if a prob. occurs or line break and read the air.

With this senario, air reading skills will be tested.

Frank


I kind of like that approach. You can read/sample the air from the ground or from flight. If you don’t believe me go watch Phil Barnes. fly DLG multi task windows. Watch the circle of the field he makes before landing and look for the bumps/thermals he hits. Then watch where he launches. It is real fun thing to watch. He finds the next air if it is out there and times the countdown for landing all in one final pass. Magic to watch!

John


P.S. don't limit the # of launches so the new flyers can fly the full window/time. That way even if they don't make good times they still get stick time trying.

[OVSS Boss]

Mr. Adcock I like your attitude, and all of us have shown up at a sailplane event and felt that way. But once my Oly II stuck the guns too.

I think many would try most contest formats, I have been to about them all. The only one that I really do not like is Triatholon, just makes me kind of grind to land earlier than what is my max attempt in a task. I enjoy ladders, as long as it is a somewhat reasonable day, and open winchis a blast as long as you have a tight window and not enough time to stand an stare. I think from whati read here is that if you have a winch hichup, you could be screwed. Now, here in the midwest, we have gotten to the point that after the first round of a weekend, there are no broken lines or pop offs, just low launches. Now, if there is a real malfunction, a guy gets the relight, but not for any other issue in most events.

Keep thinking guys, there are more out there for all of us to have fun.

Marc