Club bylaws question

[ClayH]

I put this in the Thermal section because 95% of the guys affected by the situation I'm about to describe are sailplane pilots. Our club had it's annual elections for board members tonight. I was running for president because the current president has the long term goal of getting our park rules changes to limit the size and type of plane that can be flown at our field, including limiting sailplanes to 100 inch span. I enlisted 19 people to join our club before the meeting tonight. These were mostly flyers from other clubs who support our glider group. Some were ex-members who had left our club because of the current president. The current president has the support of most of the electric flyers, by a 2-1 margin over the glider group. When he saw the large group of new people show up tonight , who would normally be signed up and greeted as new members as the first item of business, he stated that they couldn't join until after the vote. Much debate ensued, the bylaws were reviewed, and there was nothing in the bylaws stating he had the right to put off their sign-ups. But he bullied the crowd and wouldn't back down, so he won the vote again.

My question is, is it bad form to rally new members the night of a vote like this, and would your club have allowed them to vote? BTW, all members are competitive TD pilots with current AMA and I would have won the vote had they been allowed to vote.

What would you do if you were us?

Clay Hollingsworth
AMA 767511
Member El Dorado Silent Flyers

[rogerflies]

One of the clubs I was in years ago had a provision in the by-laws that prevented members from voting in elections unless they had been in the club for at least six (IIRC) months. The purpose was to prevent exactly what you were trying to do in your situation. I also know of a club that doesn't allow sailplanes of any size at their field.

On the other hand, even though I think it's very unfortunate that the current president and majority of members have an agenda that doesn't work for you, you need to accept the fact that it IS a club and the majority rules.

It's hard to tell what's the "right" thing to do. Are there safety issues with the larger sailplanes? Frequency hogging? Winch lines in the way? Something else?? You and your buddies need to identify the issues and figure out a way to resolve them to the satisfaction of the majority, comply with the restrictions being imposed, or move on.

Club politics is the most unpleasant aspect of this hobby.

Roger

[gwinhh]

My club also has a rule that you cannot vote until you have been in the Club 6 months. And we also ask that dues be paid yearly ($80) No pro-rated memberships. So, since we have club elections in November, and the membership year begins in January, we haven't had any problems.

At my CHURCH, otoh, for the vestry (governing body) election, we had people we hadn't seen in years and some I thought were dead (and who might have been--the bad guys mobilized everybody.

After lots of experience, Children, I have come to the conclusion that politics is politics: company, church, military, academic, model club, swingers' organization, retirement community. (OK, I have never been a member of the next-to-the-last, but I bet it would be the same.)

Please don't report me. Just coming off a suspension.


howell

[ClayH]

The club had new members join our club last month at the beginning of the meeting and allowed them to cast votes on items that evening. That would seem to constitute precident. Also , there is nothing in our bylaws requiring any time period that a new member must wait before voting. It say's that if they deliver an application with the associed fee, and are an AMA member in good standing, that they are in. There is a phrase that says that a member can protest a new membership, in which case the members present would vote on whether or not to admit the new member. That didn't happen tonight.

I understand that the majority rules, and our focus now will be to enlist enough new members to be a majority in the near future.

Our field has had a great safety record for over 25 years.Our field is @ 3 miles from a nearby airport. 3 years ago we had a contest where a full scale pilot flew low over our field and reported that several of the rc sailplanes were too close to him. This incident started the growing scrutiny of our flying and many TD pilots decided to fly elsewhere. I've continued to fly TD there and have become a proponent of learning to fly TD at/below 400 ft. Many of the electric flyers in our club would like to see our field turned into parkflyer haven, and would prefer the gliders go elsewhere. Our president has had meetings with the local park director in which bhe's suggested making changes to the park's current rules. These changes include:

Limiting gliders to 2.5 meters and 64 ounces
Making a permit required for winch use
No pylon racers or hotliners
Flying speed limited to 60 mph
No electric planes over 54", 4.5 lbs and 450 watts power.


He suggested these changes to the authorities without consulting the club membership or the other board members. Now these rule changes are in draft form in the Park Rangers station. They haven't been implemented yet, and may never be. But it's not the point. Our president is acting on his own, not as the club representative he was elected to be.


The nuumber of fields where 3D foamies and parkfliers can fly is growing, thanks to the evolution of electrics. But their are fewer and fewer fields where large gliders and fast planes can fly safely. We'll have to see what the AMA says.

Clay

[ZAPPA FAN]

move on! i wouldnt care to fly there if i wasnt wellcome

glider pilots will always be a minority .thank god ! .i love the fact that i dont have to listen to a bunch of crap when i fly and the parlflyers are bothersome too

seriously ,why stick around with the morons ?

zf

[georgeg]

Clay, as much as I hate to say it, I'll have to agree with Zappa Fan. Its time to find another flying site. Your club president is acting on his own agenda without consulting the club. He's got enough of the existing, active members supporting him to get away with it. Even if you replace him, the damage is done, the restrictions have been suggested to the Parks people and won't be forgotten even if they aren't adopted right now. I think you need to find another flying site and/or club and go there. I would suggested finding or forming a club for gliders only as you'll have fewer conflicts that way.

[mrfski]

Clay,
Most Bylaws incorporate Roberts Rules of Order as the methodology for conducting meetings and handling issues and matters such as you described. If it where our club then the vote on the use of the field would have been under Old Business and the induction of new members under New Business. Since Old Business (normally acting on a matter that has been brought to the club's attention at an earlier meeting) comes before New Business on the meeting agenda per Roberts Rules, the 19 new members would not have had an opportunity to vote on the matter.
I'm sorry to read about the strife in your club. It is too bad grown men playing with toy airpalnes can find ways to create situations like these, but it has happened in other places too.
Good Luck
Mart

[glderguy]

I have my own one man club, no BS/politics/protocol/schedules/etc.
other than I require myself to be an AMA member(most of the time anyway)
when I do fly its all about flying. Lifes waaay too short for BS especially when we are talking a "hobby."
Walter

[fnnwizard]

see below, my daughter hit the post button before I was finish :eek:

[dlgdude]

move on! i wouldnt care to fly there if i wasnt wellcome

glider pilots will always be a minority .thank god ! .i love the fact that i dont have to listen to a bunch of crap when i fly and the parlflyers are bothersome too

seriously ,why stick around with the morons ?

zf

`cause there`s no place else to go.

Southern California has been a hotspot for RC soaring development since the 70s. Growing cities have put a premium on open space land that can be used for Soaring activites. The SC squared circuit used have 10 clubs, all hosting events through the year. Because of club field losses, we are down to 4. ISS, SWSA, TOSS and TPG. Gone now are PSS, SULA, EDSF and HSS. They are not gone due to lack of interest, they are gone because flying sites have become impossible to keep....

[fnnwizard]

I agree that members should have to wait a period of time to vote. However in this case there was no such bylaw in the club charter to follow.
As a matter of fact no bylaws were followed at this particular meeting.

What hasn't been stated is the fact that this club, EDSF, was started by Sailplane pilots to fly sailplanes. Over the years, the "glider guys" allowed flying of other models. It just seems that the electric flyers want the field to themselves. For the record I am also an electric flyer as most sailplane flyers, we are RC flyers. I don't discriminate on the type of flying and I also don't think the majority of RC modelers do either. However, I can't say that about the current president and those who vote for him.

I guess the club's bylaws were never written to prevent someone like the current president from going rampant and acting out of line.

This recruiting of AMA members into the club to vote for a new president was an attempt tor the "soaring guys" to "get back" their club. But I can assure you these "soaring guys" would fight to allow flying of all models within park reason.

I see some of you write that the Soaring people go find another field.
1st, being in Orange County CA, that is very hard with the population density as it is. It's impractical.

2nd, the way the current President is acting... in most likelyhood the end result will be no flying of ANY models in the park if he doesnt do an about face. I dont want to see that happen... would the "electric flyers" want that?

If only you guys can see the list of names who came out to support the new president. An idiot would not have these supporters. That attests to the character of the new running president. I think eventually EDSF will sort itself out... we just need supporters of good character modelers who want to see the park being use by diversified pilots... not those belonging to one group or another.. and I think that is the majority of the people here... not the minority.

TDL

[machild]

Most Bylaws incorporate Roberts Rules of Order as the methodology for conducting meetings and handling issues and matters such as you described. If it where our club then the vote on the use of the field would have been under Old Business and the induction of new members under New Business. Since Old Business (normally acting on a matter that has been brought to the club's attention at an earlier meeting) comes before New Business on the meeting agenda per Roberts Rules, the 19 new members would not have had an opportunity to vote on the matter.
I'm sorry to read about the strife in your club. It is too bad grown men playing with toy airpalnes can find ways to create situations like these, but it has happened in other places too.

Allow me to clarify some points that might have been lost or misunderstood:

First, our president DID NOT observe Robert's Rules of Order. The election was new business. He moved directly to elections after calling the meeting to order. The president is out of order.

Second, per Robert's Rules of Order, any old business needed to be addressed first followed by new business (which would have necessarily included the election of officers). That being the case, the president is out of order here, too.

Third, our bylaws make no provision for a probationary period during which "probationers" are not afforded due privileges. That being the case, denying new memberships and due privileges is a clear violation of the bylaws as they stand. Again, the president is out of order…

Fourth, any memberships that are opposed must be taken to a vote of the general membership. A simple majority (51 percent) is required to accept or deny a membership application. This did not happen. The president ARBITRARALY and UNILATERALLY denied new members' applications. Guess what the president was? (See a familiar theme emerging?)

Finally, the numbers clearly favored the presidents opponent. When this became apparent before the start of the meeting, the president took the actions he did. Clearly out of order…

We are currently awaiting word from the AMA on its position on the issue. Discriminatory practices are not tolerated nor are practices where rules or policies are enabled through the denial of due privileges.

Just wanted to clear some things up.

Mark C.

[s2000]

I guess this post will give away my age but there was one more club lost around 20 years ago, the the good old Pacific Soaring Association (PSA) home field Magnolia High School in Anaheim, (which happened to possess an extraordinary number of talented soaring pilots) of course not to electrics but the growing influx of illegals. I also was at the meeting at Eldo last night, yes I will admit that the soaring pilots were trying to join and vote, I hope what I saw was a silent majority (RC soaring pilots) finally saying enough is enough and taking a stand, soaring has always been the largest group of RC flyers, but scant attention is paid by the AMA, that needs to change, all the soaring pilots did join after the vote, and they will be back In January, and I hope Feb. March and so on till truth and justice prevail.

[ClayH]

As stated by a few other locals, El Dorado Silent Flyers has a long history as a soaring club in Southern California. In running for president I was hoping to reverse the exodus of soaring pilots from the club that has been a direct result of the clubs current president. We aren't looking to hurt the electrics or restrict them in any way. We just want to fly our planes within the current rules and be good club members.

There are very few places in Southern California where 3 meter ships are allowed to fly, and our field is even more special in that we actually have grass to land on. And it's not just the 3 meter gliders that are being targeted for removal. The president has also recommended a 60 mph speed limit, ruling out hotliners and pylon racers, as well a a 54" wingspan , 4.5lb., 450 watt limit for electrics. This is a result of a large group of retired gentlemen that fly every morning at the field who fly only slowflyers.They feel that if they restrict flying to only those types of planes, that there will be a better chance of the club avoiding an incident that will get us shut down. Now, that logic is sound, because if we all flew 7 ounce foamies it would be hard to do too much damage. But there are dozens of places within 15 minutes of our field where one could fly those planes. We have to maintain our ability to fly at this field as we do today. Unless wecan reign in our renegade president, that won't be the case.

Clay

[OVSS Boss]

For once, the wide open midwest is looking really pretty good. I am sorry to see you fellows having these issues.

Now I am saying that when it is about 23 degrees outside right now and the wind blowing 25-30, but we do not have these issues to contend with.

Marc

[jrerickson]

Clay,

From your club bylaws, Section 2 Removal

"Any officer, elected or appointed, may be removed by the membership whenever, in their judgement, the best interests of the club would be served. This will be done by a majority vote (51%) of the members at a regularly scheduled monthly meeting, after 30 days notice has been given in writing to the general membership."

I suggest you get it in writing that you want the President removed. There is nothing I can see in your bylaws that states members must wait any period before voting. If the President pays no attention to the bylaws than the AMA should step in, although they do not like to get involved with club politics. You can't let this guy take over, especially when he's not paying any attention to the constitution of your club.

John

[QUOTE=ClayH]As stated by a few other locals, El Dorado Silent Flyers has a long history as a soaring club in Southern California. In running for president I was hoping to reverse the exodus of soaring pilots from the club that has been a direct result of the clubs current president. We aren't looking to hurt the electrics or restrict them in any way. We just want to fly our planes within the current rules and be good club members.

[dawg]

So the glider guys did become new members even if too late to vote right? So loyal glider guys are the clear majority of current members right? If yes, "checkmate", the glider guys have won if you don’t get soft and do something stupid. I don’t even see an absolute need to impeach the president. These park flyers have other places to go so don’t go soft, it’s time to take your club back.

Make sure the new glider majority shows up for all future meetings and put forth motions to make the rule changes to get things back to normal, back to a soaring club. Key glider guys hold a pre-meeting to get strait on all the proposals you’ll make and put to an immediate vote at the next meeting. Make a rule that says no power planes of any type allowed – GLIDER ONLY. (at a later date you could allow motor gliders, but for now go pure and clear.) You have the majority, it will pass. March through the bylaws making changes as needed to protect the historic soaring club. Be sure there is a bylaw change that will clearly limit the President’s power and force all things to a vote in the future, vote the new glider majority will win. Heck, if you want to remove the President, you could give the 30 day notice at the end of the meeting as the grand finale after he suffers through all the passing rule changes by the glider guys.

That rule which says something about new members can be challenged and kept out of the club will work to your advantage. The electric guys may try to rally friends to the next meeting to sign up as new members but it’s too late, you glider guys have the majority to keep them out. Do not let any more in. Vote down everyone you don’t know to be a loyal glider guy. You may even want to change the bylaws to say that to be considered for new membership you must be the owner of a sailplane of 3 meter or greater span and LSF level 1 (you can always loosen this back up after things cool down).

If/when the park management gets involved just shake your head and make the point that propeller planes that can chop you up are obviously more dangerous than these harmless gliders. Tell them the membership is in the process of impeaching that crazy rouge president they’ve been talking to. And the altitude thing is a non-issue because there is no way to measure it, just use common sense and keep it safe guys.

Checkmate – now show no mercy and cut out the cancer.

[flying_flip]

Allow me to clarify some points that might have been lost or misunderstood: ...

One thing that I think was missed in the meeting is this.

The President himself, at one point, made a motion to have the current membership vote as to "whether or not the new members would be allowed to vote in the election." That motion was quickly seconded by an Indian gentleman in the front row (sorry, I don't know the man's name.)
Discussion ensued, and no vote was held regarding the motion on the table.

The President unilaterally decided that the answer was no.

Phil Lutz
(flying_flip)

[flying_flip]

Make sure the new glider majority shows up for all future meetings and put forth motions to make the rule changes to get things back to normal, back to a soaring club. Key glider guys hold a pre-meeting to get strait on all the proposals you’ll make and put to an immediate vote at the next meeting. ... ... March through the bylaws making changes as needed to protect the historic soaring club. Be sure there is a bylaw change that will clearly limit the President’s power and force all things to a vote in the future, vote the new glider majority will win. Heck, if you want to remove the President, you could give the 30 day notice at the end of the meeting as the grand finale after he suffers through all the passing rule changes by the glider guys.
I like the way you think.
Although some of it is a little too extreme.

I like the idea of raising all the various sections of the by-laws and getting them re-written. (tighten things up). Putting restrictions on "presidential power" would be the first items to add to the bylaws...
And ALL the decided upon amendments will need to be retified in the meeting.

I didn't see anything about a "review period" of changes to the bylaws. You could probably get all items addressed in one meeting. (read fingers crossed)

Ousting the current Pres is definitely on the top of the list for me....

Phil

[schrederman]

I believe that the bylaws need to state that the club is run under Robert's Rules. In such a case, the president isn't allowed to make motions. He may only entertain motions from the floor. Dawg is right, get your glider membership up and make it a glider-only club. Allow no form of propulsion other than a winch, or a high start. You could make exceptions for a tow plane if you do aero tows. I joined the Ft. Worth Thunderbirds and was allowed to come out and watch, but couldn't put out a high start... I didn't stay but one month... and that was 1973...

While not a model club, Texas Soaring Association wouldn't allow members to hangar their private planes at the airport, unless it was a glider. Logic was we were a glider club. Fly in and fly your glider if you like, but fly back out at the end of the day, unless you wanted to sleep in the clubhouse. Then you flew out at the end of the next day.

Ousting the pres is definitely a first step. These guys have come in and tried to take over a glider club. Show them that it shouldn't happen that way. If you have a majority, kick 'em out!

What a shame...

I will say that the Clovis club... all power but me... has welcomed me and I really like those guys. We tolerate each other... and watch out for each other... so far. I wonder who'll jump up and down if someone runs into my high start and crashes. We're far enough from the airport that teh 400' deal won't bother us... for now...

Jack Womack

[tw126a]

I'm the only glider flyer in our club too but they're a great bunch of guys, we all get along and make room for each other. Its my first year there so they are getting used to me too but we have lots of room to fly from. At the last meeting I brought along 6 kits that I was thinking of selling, 4 of them sold that night, maybe I won't be the only one next year.. :)
Tom

[mwhitman]

I've seen one too many recommendations for the glider pilots to move on and fly somewhere else. Hell no! Fight to keep the glider park! This is our hobby as well and not just the sole domain of a rogue club president who is under the impression that he is making the world a safer place by trying to place restrictions on planes that have been flying there for years.

For those of you who haven't flown at El Dorado, it is one of the few urban public parks in Southern California that not only allows RC aircraft but also has a relatively large area set aside for it. The glider park is open 7 days a week from dawn to dusk. The loss of this field would be a loss for everyone. Yes, everyone.

Unfortunately, I see only two possible outcomes. Either the current groups (gliders and electrics) are allowed to fly or you risk losing the use of the field altogether. As others have pointed out, the city or the department of parks and recreation won't want to play babysitter and look into every possible violation of "the rules." It would be simpler for them to simply shut it down.

So, it's in everyone's (electric and glider pilots) best interest to work together for the benefit of the RC community. If El Dorado becomes an electric-only park, who's going to support them when the city or parks department starts talking about repurposing the field for something like soccer? Not the glider pilots. The same thing applies if electric flyers are prohibited in favor of gliders only. We are losing more and more fields to soccer these days simply because they have the numbers. If we split on issues like these, it makes it easier for those groups to move in. Look at what's happening at 60 Acres in Seattle where the soccer association is trying to take over this public piece of land exclusively for soccer. There are a number of groups (non-RC) that use that field and they are in support of the glider pilots who are fighting the soccer association and King County.

Do not stand down. Do not walk away. Solve the problem.

Mike

[xtc]

all else fails ,,get out the weapons lol seriously ,i think some of you guys should try SANKA

xtc

[ZAPPA FAN]

in the long run ,i think the glider guys are NOT the losers ,,i was in a similiar club but with glowheads and after they lost there field i starting flying DLG from the local school yard

THANK YOU GLOWHEADS move on to a new form of glider as the parkflyers guys are more likely to keep battling about something or the other ,,who needs it!


fz

[glderguy]

"Send lawyers, guns and money, the s@#t has hit the fan!"

[dharban]

If, indeed, it can be demonstrated that the leaders of this club failed to follow their own rules and/or the rules of the entities that charter them (AMA, state and local jurisdictions under which they are incorporated) there are likely two immediate consequences:

1. The action they took is not valid and/or enforceable.

2. The parties responsible for those actions are probably legally liable for any damages suffered by other parties as a result of their wreckless and/or illegal actions.

It is amazing that this uncivil action has proceeded as far as it has. It should serve as a lesson and warning to clubs that get together for the "fun of it" that they are no less liable for the consequences of failing to follow their own rules of governance and the rules imposed upon them by state and local jurisdictions than the big evil companies that bedevil our working lives. Rules of governance provide a large measure of guidance and protection for organizations and their leaders. NOT TOTAL PROTECTION. Fuller protection requires measures of wisdom, decency and civility (clearly lacking here). Today, ultimate protection also requires a little luck. It looks to me like the guys that kicked this mess off are going to need some.

Don

[fnnwizard]

Let's also give the current president and/or any of his supporters the opportunity to chime in here... I would welcome his/her response to the FACTS.... I doubt if they will to respond...

I am one of the new members EDSF, as of 12-6-2006 but have been an AMA member since 1988 or 89. I support Clay. I invite those that support the current president to come out and tell us why... I would like to hear the otherside.

If you feel what you have done is "right" there is no need to keep silent... unless you are ashame of what you did... I am not ashame.. how about the "other side"?

Clay, maybe you can state your mission here. I get a sense this is becoming an E-flight vs Sailplanes... which is not really the case, it's more like one rogue president who has gotten on a "power trip" and those who fly with him got that mob mentality... once they realize they may be the minority they probably will disappear.

[s2000]

And by the way, for folks that weren't at the Wed. meeting, what some suspicious member of the club (the president maybe) is trying to do, limit max wingspan to 100 inches, limit weight to around 4 pounds, ban the use of winches, and several things aimed at mid to high powered electrics. Sure seems to me that someone is really gunning for the glider flyers, meanwhile what I understand Clay wants to do is be all inclusive, making everyone welcome. I know which side I am on.