Is it Perfect?

[Wing-span]

What is it that makes the Pike Perfect so perfect? I've not flown one, yet, but there is something very appealling about it. Were older generations really that lacking? I thought that model sailplane design peaked around 2000 as they do all tend to look similar after this time. Does flying the latest machinery have a significant psychological effect on the pilot and does this then end up improving flight performance?

It is a nice glider. There are also other nice gliders available from other manufacturers. Is the Perfect the plane to have....this year?

[oakman7004]

yes, parallell to the Shadow, SUPRA, Espara RXL, Radical and the rest of the bunch... ;)

I would say that there are still your skills that are the single most important thing to do F3J or TD well...one should never forget that! Sometimes focus is on what plane a chmp uses...he(she) could be a champ with an entirely different plane. So yes, psychology is important!

My vote is for the SUPRA!

Cheers Jonas Ekman

[roydor]

The perfect is an excellent plane. I have been flying one since march and can say that it has the best L/D of all my privious gliders. It also reacts very well to lift, signalling the lightest thermal. Mine was one of the first and has a slightly heavy fuse in my opinion and its probably safe to say that the new ones will be lighter giving even better handling (which is allready very good). Mine weighs 2250 grams (79 ounce) giving a light wing loading for such a big plane.
I haven't flown a Supra but seen them fly (and explode on launch) in WC in Slovakia, they fly very well but don't out fly planes like the Perfect, Shadow and Espade RXL. This is becouse the Supra suffers from too much wing flex on launch, they loose a lot of altitude due to wing flex. Only Tom Kisling and Arend Borst got decent height out them. This is of course for F3J, TD I don't fly so can't say...

[glderguy]

I dont understand what you are saying Roydor. The Supra loses launch height
due to excessive wing flex? Maybe true, I dont know. Yet you said Borst/Keisling got decent launch height. How? I thought it not possible due to noodle wings?
Thanks, Walter

[Trisquire]

I saw one get about 20 minutes after 6:00 PM back in August. The pilot could have gone longer, but his Pike was getting too high and too far away. It's a very efficient sailplane. It zoom launches high and carves turns nicely.

Tom

[roydor]

In the WC in Slovakia there were about 20 Supras, most were launching 3/4 of the height with alarming wing flex, several fluttered. Borst and Keisling pushed their planes to the limit and I have no doubt they could have got even higher launch height with stronger planes its all about maximizing the performance, they really pushed the envelope while others were flying "regular" model more safely and conservatively for the same altitude (Arend Borst blew one up during launch!).
The glass Supra's, as for august 2006, were capable of fluttering in no wind launches in F3J. Maybe today they're better but I personaly wouldn't take a chance, the risk is to big (expensive) for me.

One more point to make, in the WC 7 out of 12 models flown in the finals were Perfects. Only 2 Supra's, two Icons and one Experience pro to complete the list.

[OVSS Boss]

Not a Supra flier here, but I have seen Borst fly his and his launches are breath taking, literally. I could not believe that the ship would take that kind of flex, like 20"+ per side. ANd he does it everytime, time in and out at the Masters.

Marc

[glderguy]

Hey Marc, ever seen an Insanity launch? Not a whole lot of flex there!
Walter :D

[glderguy]

Question for you Roydor since you were there. Sort of looked to me like Borst was dominating a bit til the fly offs? Mustve caught some bad air or something happened during the flyoff?
thanks, Walter

[Kiesling]

For the record, Arend's Supra failure was at the pod and boom interface. I think this joint saw one too many hard landings. This joint is made by the end user and the method Arend used failed at an in-oportune time. Fortunately for Arend he has a lot of experience with this level of competition and maximized his score in the other qualifying rounds allowing him to tolerate the failure and still win the preliminaries.

As far as being able to launch higher with a stiffer model (so far my bagged Supras have been strong enough - knock on wood), I'm not sure if it would make that big of a difference. I plan on eventually making some Supras with high modulus carbon spars and that should answer the question. Part of the reason I want stiffer wings is to help with controllability on launch. On a crooked throw it is my perception (valid or not) that a stiffer model is easier to get back in line.

The main culprit causing the flutter in the molded Supra's was the servo installation. The light skin required the servo mounting area to be stiffened up. Sub ribs on each side of the wing servos connecting the top and bottom skin seemed to fix the flutter issue in most cases. I don't think this is a unique problem to the Supra. I have seen a Pike Superior SL with the same problem.

I think one of the main reasons there were more Perfects in the finals at the WC was because of the teething problems with the molded Supra. As Roydor points out there is too much at stake in a world championship to take a chance on a model that has had some concerning structural failures. Arend and Rolf, the two "Canadians" ;-), had spent a lot of time and effort sorting their Supras out and understood what was needed to make them work.

Vladimir took an aggessive approach trying to keep the weight down below 1700 grams on the Supra. This is not an easy task for a production sailplane of this size with an airfoil that is only 8% thick at the root transitioning to around 5% at the tip. My understanding is that the current production models have the structure sorted out. However the early failures left an impression.

Samba took a more conservative approach with the Perfect and started heavy and worked their way down. For pilots going to the world championships, this approach gave them confidence in the structure of the Perfect. This combined with an excellent flying model lead to what you saw in Martin.

Just some rambling thoughts

Tom

[OVSS Boss]

Walter,
I have seen Insanities fly, I have one and another on the partially done. The thing made me look pretty good, and since I finally got over the case of cheap I have, and I put good servos in the fuse, it flies even better.

Marc

[roydor]

Conditions in the WC flyoff were difficult, I messed up big time there coming in 12 out of 12...there was medium wind difficult visibility because of heavy clouds and it was more of flying through lift rather then classic thermal turning. I also had difficulties seeing my models and flew another model for almost 30 seconds before realizing and switching back to mine, not something you want to do...especially in a flyoff. I guess Arend suffered as i did form the conditions.
Now don't understand me wrong, the Supra is a fine ship and with time would probably get better, it penetrates surprisingly well considering its low weight. But I feel I would weight for it to get stronger and stiffer for F3J where I don't think a 1700 gram ship has much advantage on a 1900 gram ship and would need ballast in most condition which believe that 200 grams of carbon in the wing would be better than 200 grams of lead.
A teammate of mine flew afull 68 carbun SL Superior with a build up tail I built for him at 1930 grams and did surprisingly well with it in no conditions at all. Had he not over flown a round by a fraction of second our team would have been second in the world pushing the US to third. Unfortunately after he over flew we dropped to fifth place...

[D Hobby F3J WC2]

I thought I would put in my opinion.

I really like the Perfect :)

Great all round model and really strong. The way I like them. Samba always wanted to make a lighter version for me but I preffer the 2200g one I flew in the WC. The double carbon 80g/m wing Samba gave me after the mid air :( in the final flight of the WC is really strong. Huge launches. I have flown it in 20-30 mph wind with full ballast (2650g total, I think) and zero wind.

The next WC in Turkey I will use 3 Perfects. 2 of 2200g with 68g full carbon tips and 80g full carbon centre panel. 1 of 2400g aprox. 80 g double carbon centre panel and double 68 g tips. I fell this combination will be good for any conditions.

The big lesson I learned in Slovakia is ONE of my 2200g Perfects will have a more nose heavy setting. Flying against Karl Hinch in one of the peliminary rounds in dead air, he crushed me by 1:30 min. It was obvious my tail heavy model required more inputs to fly than Karl's. I still preffer to have a rear CG model in any othe conditions.

Cheers

David Hobby

[Richard S]

It would be even more perfect if I could get one before April!!

[jojoen]

For the record, Arend's Supra failure was at the pod and boom interface. I think this joint saw one too many hard landings. This joint is made by the end user and the method Arend used failed at an in-oportune time. Fortunately for Arend he has a lot of experience with this level of competition and maximized his score in the other qualifying rounds allowing him to tolerate the failure and still win the preliminaries. ....snipp....Tom
Hi guys!
Arend did not use a stock boom on the model that blew up.
In the finals his head was not with him. Maybe he should have had another caller?
David won because he worked lots of small thermals and was percistant in working them instead of trying for another place. Everytime his model signalled something he tried it! That gave him the thermal he needed to finish the last final with the minutes he needed. So what I sasy is that I think David has balls to finish.

BTW I have not been able to brake my full carbon Supra even though I have tried. I have tried to blow up my 68 Perfect too with no luck...

regards Jojo (following RCgroups only now and then)

[Wing-span]

So this is where we stand now with the latest/current crop of 'must-have' gliders.

I wonder what the future holds?

[jojoen]

I forgot to answer the initial question...
What i feel is the big difference on lets say 2000 and 2006 is first of all the circling performance of Pike Perfect and Supra (this is pretty similar on these two models). You can try out lift easier than previous models. There are other issues also offcourse but I feel this is one of the most important for me.
As anote slight differences on these two models though in circling. The Supra is lighter but the Perfect have more punch in the rudder.

Regards Jojo

[Wing-span]

JoJo,
Both planes have large vertical fins with a good rudder area. Do you say that this is what has improved the circling performance?

Maybe Phillip K has somthing to say on his design ideas?

[Kiesling]

Hi guys!
Arend did not use a stock boom on the model that blew up.
Hi JoJo! My molded Supra also had the light boom and it held up fine. I'm pretty sure it was more of a joint failure than a boom failure.


In the finals his head was not with him. Maybe he should have had another caller?
Perhaps a different caller would have helped, but I think his position on the field was a factor as well. The way the weather turned out, Arend was in effect punished for winning the preliminary rounds. They did not rotate the slots for the flyoffs so he was stuck in slot one for each flyoff round. Slot one was on the opposite side of the field from where everyone ended up flying. This distance made it notably more difficult to read the air in the tricky conditions for the flyoff. It also meant you had more distance to cover to get to your spot when returning from the same thermal the rest of the group was flying in.


David won because he worked lots of small thermals and was percistant in working them instead of trying for another place. Everytime his model signalled something he tried it! That gave him the thermal he needed to finish the last final with the minutes he needed. So what I sasy is that I think David has balls to finish.

In addition to his persistance, David is very disciplined in his flying. No loops, no rolls, it's all business at the big comps for him. (although I suspect that mid air in the finals was his way of getting in a spin without appearing to break his show of discipline - perhaps a victory roll of sorts - David? ;) ).

Tom

[jojoen]

JoJo,
Both planes have large vertical fins with a good rudder area. Do you say that this is what has improved the circling performance?

Maybe Phillip K has somthing to say on his design ideas?
Yes and no. It is the whole package that makes the Perfect and Supra turn better than previous designs. Look at geometry and airfoil transition. But the Perfect has a little different rudder than the Supra also...

I doubt you will find Phillip in this forum...
These are all his words... http://www.f3j.com/perfect.htm

[jojoen]

Hi JoJo! ....snipp...
Perhaps a different caller would have helped, but I think his position on the field was a factor as well. The way the weather turned out, Arend was in effect punished for winning the preliminary rounds. They did not rotate the slots for the flyoffs so he was stuck in slot one for each flyoff round. Slot one was on the opposite side of the field from where everyone ended up flying. This distance made it notably more difficult to read the air in the tricky conditions for the flyoff. It also meant you had more distance to cover to get to your spot when returning from the same thermal the rest of the group was flying in.
...snipp...
Tom
I agree. That also made a difference in atleast one of Arend's flights. Dont remember why they did not rotate (I heard why but dont remember).

[becsta]

This discussion has made me think a bit about whether my next big plane purchase would be a Perfect, or whether I should think of something else.

In the meantime, I'm flying a new Icon, and thus am wondering what you guys think of the Icon? There's not a helluva lot of info on here about them. My Icon's maiden on the weekend was sublime - her second winch launch was a Carl Strautin special - and I can't wait to fly her again this weekend in a club comp.

She still seems to be a very popular plane, as I had to wait 6 months for mine.

Cheers,
- bec

[Jurgen]

Wondering what is the exact function(s)/benefits of a droop-nose.
Jurgen.

[D Hobby F3J WC2]

Hi JoJo

I have tried very hard to break the double carbon Perfect. Many of the pilots I fly regulary know, when I receive a new model I explore all of the performance and strength avaliable. I really do not like to have a model that will break in harsh landings, flutter in high speed dives an generally not handle anything I would dish out.

Granted I still have not flown the Supra, much to my dissapointment, so I can not comment.

Mr Kiesling. Beleive me when I tell you, the mid air was not in my plans. :) It broke my wing with the custom Australian flag on it and I ahve never been so drained mentally after the last flight. I have seen som stupid mistakes made when flying aerobatics at the end of a flight, so I try to avoid them, but sometimes I can not help myself. Definatly not in a WC.

The Icon has been a remarkable model. It has been around for years and has led the way for the latest models.

I did not consider the effect of the slots. The lift pattern was quite large and the distances flown were out to my eyesight at least. If you take the flight times on the second round of the flyoff, did the compeditors over slot 6 perform better? I would like to see the stats. :)

After the 2004 WC there was some interesting data released. Does anyone know who did this?

Cheers

David Hobby

[roydor]

The Icon is a very impressive plane... The first time I saw it was in the worlds this year and I have to say I was impressed by its performance. I never expected a glider with such a small aspect ratio to be such a good floater. Made me reconsider Reynolds affects when looking on new planes. The perfect also takes into consideration higher Reynolds in its design but the Icon takes this factor to extreme. The only real problem I see with the Icon is its price, a very expansive plane.

When choosing a modern glider there are many to choose from. All are excellent and can win competitions. In the end availability of the model and of spare parts is the biggest factor for me, not that I intend to need spare parts (nobody plans this in advance). For me the Pike series is available and many of my friends are flying Pikes (Superior and Perfects) so used spare parts can be found if needed and new parts can be ordered with only a short wait.

longevity of the model is also important. When I fly a model it takes me several months to get comfortable with it and to gain confidence with it. if the model is trashed by the time I get used to it, its of no use to me. That's why I like strong models which can take abuse in hard landings, hard launches over time.

Jurgen, the dropped nose is supposed to help to drive the model into the spot without it sliding of. If the nose is 5 deg down, you need to push the nose 5 deg down less in order for it to stop. This way the model also picks up less speed during the dorking of the spot. In the end not a big difference but might help with downwind landings and on slippery ground.

Roy Dor

[Wing-span]

Interesting comments so far from everybody. But which is the 'best' model so far, in your eyes? What do you or are you looking for in the ultimate model competition-glider?
Take into account what ever attributes you wish. What is your top three?

Mine is currently, though it changes on a daily basis, the following:

1. ICON (Though I would like to see a stretch wing version)
2. ESPADA RL
3. XPERIENCE PRO V-TAIL

[mlee8249]

Wing-Span,

You're asking a question that varies with the number of people who answer it. No doubt, someone is going to mention a plane that may not even be made for what type of service you are using it in, but it's their favorite plane. So, I would suggest you try and fly as many of the popular planes as you can, (not buy them, but ask a fellow pilot if you can handle the sticks), and make a decision from there.

Mike Lee

[dhauch]

Wing-Span,
you can, (not buy them, but ask a fellow pilot if you can handle the sticks), and make a decision from there.
Mike Lee

NO!, buy them all and try them all out.
thats what i do, keeps the economy going!
I'm doing my part anyway. :D

dh

[dhauch]

on another note.

you could take six identical planes with six different pilots and you will see drastic different flying characteristics from each plane, from poor to good,
from the same plane.

i've seen guys say they don't like a certain plane, and after seeing how they had it set up, i can see why.
i've taken that same plane and after dialing it in, it flew a hundred times better.

so i don't put complete faith on how each guy likes a particular plane.

then there's flying styles and how your going to use it, and how many other planes you have that fills the void of this particular plane.

not to mention good service where you buy a plane, fit & function , and getting parts. Plus with as many planes i go thru, i look at re-sale value also.

I just love dialing in new planes. :)

dh

[ThermalBuster]

on another note.

you could take six identical planes with six different pilots and you will see drastic different flying characteristics from each plane, from poor to good,
from the same plane.

i've seen guys say they don't like a certain plane, and after seeing how they had it set up, i can see why.
i've taken that same plane and after dialing it in, it flew a hundred times better.

so i don't put complete faith on how each guy likes a particular plane.

then there's flying styles and how your going to use it, and how many other planes you have that fills the void of this particular plane.

not to mention good service where you buy a plane, fit & function , and getting parts. Plus with as many planes i go thru, i look at re-sale value also.

I just love dialing in new planes. :)

dh

Amen brother.

"Fly what you enjoy looking at" is my motto.

:-)

[becsta]

Which, believe it or not, was one of the reasons why I chose the Icon. I _love_ looking at that glider, both on the ground, and in the air.

Ok, ok, the other reason I chose the Icon was her flying characteristics, and in the few flights I've had so far, I'm glad I spent the money.

- bec

[ThermalBuster]

It doesn't get any better than that!!!

[s2000]

A friend of mine who is one of the world class soaring pilots ( I won't mention any names) let me fly his Supra and also his Perfect, (I fly mostly large scale gliders) in my hands, the Perfect blew away the Supra in handling, and stucturally the Perfect seems to have a more sound construction and will be more durable long-term, I would think after many spike landings the Supra stab mount could be suspect, plus the wing mount problem doesn't sound inspiring, needless to say my choice will be the Perfect, plus for scale guys like me the fit and finish of the Perfect wins me over.

[glderguy]

hey Bec. The Icon is the best plane I have flown to date. I had one for a year or so and really liked it. Eventually sold it and bought the much praised
Pike Superior. Going from an Icon to the Superior was disappointing for me
as the Icon worked way better in my hands. I felt it was clearly a step or two above the Superior for my flying style. You cant/wont go wrong w/your Icon - it is a great plane.
Walter

[mlee8249]

DH,

Dude, you crack me up! Keep the economy going....I need to win the lottery!

Mike

[D Hobby F3J WC2]

My thoughts on the best model.


THE BEST MODEL IS THE ONE A PILOT IS MOST HAPPY WITH.

This includes the look of the model, the performance and the price. If a pilot is happy with the model then it increases the confidence of the pilot and decrease anxiety.

I like your line of thought DH. Maybe not the economy quote. Where do you live?

Great weather this weekend in Melbourne. Australia that is. Summer is on the way. :D

Cheers

David Hobby

[dhauch]

I like your line of thought DH. Maybe not the economy quote. Where do you live?
David Hobby

hey david,
just clowning around on the economy thing.
i live in Mich. USA
where the World Headquarters of www.git-r-built.com is located. :)

i do move south in the winters though, to the basement! :)

dh

[trashmanf]

Does the pike perfect have servos molded into the tail group, or do you install yourself? someone told me they came pre-installed and you would have to dremel out the body to get to them.

[Radian]

Does the pike perfect have servos molded into the tail group, or do you install yourself? someone told me they came pre-installed and you would have to dremel out the body to get to them.


No servos in the tail. No servos pre installed.

Very "conventional" servo installation. Two in the nose under the canopy for Rudder and Elevator and then four in the wings. The Servo mounting tray for the Rudder Elevator servo's comes preinstalled.

Radian

[tomcat5109]

I like your attitude dhauch. I'm currently flying an HKM Space Pro 3.35 and it is a very good Texas wind flyer and it looks good too. Next, and currently on my building board is a Pike Superior. I'm trying my best to boost the economy.

Tommy

[dhauch]

I'm trying my best to boost the economy.
Tommy

Way to go Tommy!
we have to keep food on those venders tables.
God bless us!!! :)

That Space Pro is a sharp looking plane.

dh

[Jurgen]

.....i've taken that same plane and after dialing it in, it flew a hundred times better.....From a man with your experience, is there a common erratic factor to find on bad flying gliders in your opinion (for example CG)? Thx in advance, Jurgen.

[Wing-span]

I think some gliders plan forms and tail surface areas make them sensitive to incorrect CG or CG changes when ballasting.

[Wing-span]

Hay this is my 100th post!!! Woohooo!!

Sorry just had to get that off my chest.

[kzimmerm]

Not to sound naive, where does one find an Icon besides private sale?

Kurt

[Richard S]

http://www.mapleleafdesign.com/ :)

[kzimmerm]

thanks Richard.

[dhauch]

From a man with your experience, is there a common erratic factor to find on bad flying gliders in your opinion (for example CG)? Thx in advance, Jurgen.

hi,
just finding that magical combination with, c/g, aileron to flap mix, differential, rudder mix, towhook position, amount of camber that works best, ballast, launch and landing settings, amount of throws, ect....

dh

[Jurgen]

Dhauch, thx for reply, i understand nothing stand out in particular.

"Buy them all, try them all" With this you turned on our addiction even more :D altho its in contrast of available time & income, and i comfort myself with a law that apply for the lesser soaring gods amongst us: "one has to stick with one model for a long time".

Thx for the inspiration you share in many ways.
Jurgen.

[Tuomo]

"Buy them all, try them all" With this you turned on our addiction even more :D

I think the most limiting factor is time. You really have to fly a plane for some time (perhaps one season) to be really sure of its capabilities. Most modern planes fly well enough to win a competition, it is mostly a question of how it handles and how you optimal your trim settings are.

Having said this, I have a Perfect on order. I am 100% satisfied with my current planes (Valmo Models Snake) but (perhaps because of all the hype) I though I want to give the Perfect a try. I will take it to competitions when I am ready to do so. Propably start the season with Snake...

[D Hobby F3J WC2]

Hi Tuomo

I think you will find the Perfect very versitile. Good choice

What layup have you ordered? Samba is now offering the option of carbon tubes in the aileron for extra stiffness. My Perfect in the 2006 WC was just fine. My launch guys tried to rip the wings off (my request) Perfect, but failed :D

I am not familiar with the Snake. Is there a web site I can have a look at.

David Hobby

[bwilman]

G'day Dave, Think the snake Tuomo is reffering to is by http://www.valomodel.com/

Brad

[Jurgen]

Brad, strange that link did not work (forbidden access) from linking out of RCgroups, but it worked by just typing it in a fresh new adress bar.
Snake = corado 5

Tuomo, congrats, i know you took time for serious considering, just a matter of time and you whoop opponents asss :)
Jurgen.

[Wing-span]

Having said this, I have a Perfect on order. I am 100% satisfied with my current planes (Valmo Models Snake) but (perhaps because of all the hype) I though I want to give the Perfect a try.

Samba and NAN/Mibo models have done what I think has not been done before. That is to spend alot of time and money in the near scientific development, mass production and advertising (hype) of their latest models. And I think it is paying off for them.

The Perfect versus the Xperience/Shadow flyoff will be repeated many times over the coming few years. Though this type of business competition will only prove to be good for the model pilot in the end. With increased sales and other companies trying to get in on the act technical development of the aircraft should increase. End result? Better products better planes.

[roydor]

is there a common erratic factor to find on bad flying gliders in your opinion (for example CG)?

I've been flying F3J for over 7 years and have flown a Superior for over 3 years. less than a year ago I bought an X-tail Superior 68 full carbon model. A friend of mine, a very good flyer, bought the same model, even the colors were similar.

You might expect the two models to fly the same but strangely enough they didn't. When my friend turned to me to see why his Superior was giving him a hard time I asked him how he was flying the model and was surprised to hear that he decided to dial in the model according to a setting he found on the net saying that those settings would give the model the best performance and decided to stick to these setting no matter what. He set off to learn how to fly the model with these settings of low differential and an aft CG, no aileron-rudder mix and a default camber setting that made him tip stall very easily. He was reluctant to change his setup until he took a test flight on my Superior.

Flying my model he noticed that it was easier to fly, a bit more sluggish but didn't tip stall, flew much quieter and required less control inputs.
Was my model any different? no, aside from a lighter installation (50 grams in wing harness and wing servo installation) it was identical.
Was my setup better? only for my flying style which turned out to be similar to his flying style.

The setup he copied from the net was from someone who flew F3B models and liked his models fast and aggressive with a neutral stability. If you can fly the model this way, constantly giving small control inputs to keep the model flying, it would turn out to be a good setting for you.

I, on the other hand, am not so quick on the stick and its hard for me to notice those small changes in the models pitch and speed and with this type of setup I would keep stalling the plane and spinning it in a thermal. I need a quiet model, a docile model that would let me fly the air and not the plane, to get into the thermal without having to constantly correct the trajectory of my model. So to answer Jurgen's question, each pilot requires his own setup to fit his abilities and experience and in my opinion most pilots don't take the time to find there own setup, one which will fit their level of flying. Worse, most pilots take on difficult setups and find themselves fighting the model instead of flying the air.

I guess my hand-eye coordination isn't high enough to fly difficult setups and I got to where I am today (WC flyoff) flying friendly setups on my models (Eraser, Superior V, Superior X tail, Perfect). So if you have average hand-eye coordination like I do and don't see yourself as a super pilot, you can try my method of trimming a model:

I set up my gliders with a forward CG, I trim the model for straight and level flight at minimum sink speed and dive test the model at a 30 to 40 degree dive and count 3 to 4 seconds for the model to straighten up (the model might continue to lift the nose up afterwards). If the model is light weight and builds up speed slowly I sometimes let it straighten up in 5 seconds since its easier to fly it with a more aft CG, this would mean the model is a bit less stable. A neutral plane would not raise the nose at all. If you want the model to raise the nose faster, add some nose weight and trim the model again (up trim).

This gives a docile model that maintains speed and reduces work load on the elevator stick. The extra weight needed to get the CG in front is a penalty I live with easily, a lighter and less stable plane would not fly well for me at all. Also, my style of flying is to push down in order to get the model moving and not to fly fast and pull up in order to slow down for a thermal and minimum sink, this is why a forward CG is better for me.

The differential is set to 1:3 (1 mm down aileron for every 3 mm up aileron). This gives me good control during thermal turns (less tip stall). Camber is slightly more on the flaps than on the ailerons in order to delay tip stall(ailerons 3/4 of flaps), usually no more then 2 mm on flaps for thermal, 3 mm max for optimizing gliding.

I always fly with a very small amount of aileron to rudder mix, about 15% of the total rudder movement, in order to insure the model makes a clean roll around the fuse axis. This allows me to turn more cleanly but does not in any way take away from the fact that I have to use the rudder stick during a turn to make a nice coordinated one. For me this lets me fly the model without having to coordinate aileron movements with the rudder and reduces my work load on the rudder stick.

In the end a safer and more conservative setup is easier to fly and lets you maximize glider performance. Start there and than try pushing outwards testing your boundaries and abilities for a more aggressive setup if you wish.

Roy

[Ollie]

Roy,
Well said!!!

[Larry Jolly]

Guys,
Interesting discussion with many good thoughts expressed. I own both models and I have 3 Perfects for next year. I also have a High Modulous Supra ordered which will join the fleet. I called for Arend at the Masters Tournament and was very impressed at how well his Supra performed and just how much punishment it would take. While David is one of my best friends, and I am very happy for his back to back victories, if Rolf had not made the flyoff Arend would have certainly given David a go of it. The Perfect has etremely good handeling characteristics. Very easy to fly and land it is very easy to jump in and perform well with. For flying F3J the models are evenly matched with perhaps the Supra a bit quicker on the Tow and the Perfect a bit easier to see out about 13 minutes in the flyoff round.
If I had to take a critical view I would like a bit more stab area, and more flap for the Supra. Because of the pod shape the Supra will not do well with a passive stab at the center of the circle. These changes would enhance the lower end of the speed range. The Perfect has excellent landing characteristics but in my opinion could use a little more cruise ability. Both these issues can be addressed with proper strategy from the pilot. One of the other models not mentioned that deserves consideration is Lubos's new Aspire one great flying model that I would like to test. These 3 models are truly the Vanguard of the most current approach to F3J and definitely fly better than the models We had 6 years ago. Best Regards Larry

[Wing-span]

Thanks for this input Larry and welcome to this discussion.

It would be really great to get a review of the Aspire some time soon. Maybe you could sort this out??

[Jurgen]

Thx Roy for typing in that long & most advocating clarification i ever saw for stable flight settings. What often is condemned as less performant (CG in front of neutral) you give this area rehabilitation.

Graced be all who share inspiration to those who need it desperately.
Jurgen.

[tonyestep]

Roy, your post was very striking to me because I went through exactly the same trimming exercise with my V-tail Superior. I bought one of David Hobby's WC04 planes and set it up as JoJo recommended, but I didn't like it at all. I moved the CG forward a little and increased the aileron-flap coupling, which eliminated the plane's tendency to tip stall. Then a little bit of rudder coupling, and it was a different plane - at least to me. In particular, its performance in a thermal circle smoothed out; no more tendency to speed up on one side and balloon on the other.

I'm sure that JoJo's setup is perfect for him, but it didn't work for me. I think that the key is in learning exactly what results each change in setup will produce. This is not as simple as it sounds!

For Mark Drela's incisive comments on aileron-flap coupling, see RCSE post #143892. For his views on aileron-rudder mix, differential, and more see: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=552660
Roy's version of the dive test works perfectly for me, too. Try it -- you'll like it.

[jojoen]

Most settings are very pilot deppendant. But a dive test is of zero use for thermal flying. Especially with a all moving tail.... A dive test will show you all your trims, camber and lift of the airfoil together with the CG.

Look more to handling when adjusting the CG. It is a fact that the Superior can fly well at everything from 103 to 119mm (only as far as apx 112mm on the V-tail). How you want the model to react and handle and what conditions you fly in is the deal. Dont do any other adjustments while you test CG. All pilots should test different CG's on their model. Should atleast give them confidence on their model

Try dive testing the Perfect. It will not give you the same feedback at all. Initial testing and calculations showed a CG of 120-125mm. So the first month I flew it there. But I ended at 109-113 for most flying. Then again I can just as well fly at 118mm since the difference (to me) is not that huge.

[roydor]

A dive test is relevant only if you trim the model for minimal sink, otherwise you might get a tail heavy behavior. This is true both for full flying tail and conventional, and also for a V-tail. You must fly the model for several straight lines to determine its ability to keep the speed constant in order to verify the trim.

Furthermore, for a conventional tail and v-tail you must change the incident of the elevator so its kept symmetrical at the minimal sink trim or else the pitching behavior might vary with speed.

Today I fly my Superior with a CG at 104 mm and the Perfect at 107-108 mm without ballast. Ballast moves the CG about 2-3 mm backwards but that is not from choice but a result of my ballast system. It doesn't matter much for me because I add ballast only when the wind really picks up and then I fly more aggressive and the CG position isn't that important since minimal sink isn't what I'm looking for during such conditions but more penetration.

[glderguy]

Before a lot of you TD guys here in the US blindly start throwing lead in your nose, remember something. In TD you usually pick a plane to fly for the day, and unless you render it unflyable, thats the plane you fly with all day, regardless of conditions. Unlike F3J, you are not allowed the luxury of pulling out a different plane depending on conditions. You need to learn to fly that one plane in all conditions, so what option do you have if you choose your plane for anticipated conditions and they dont materialize? Disregarding ballast or lack of, which is pretty obvious, you need to tune your plane to the conditions at hand. How is this many times done? I would go w/Cg/trim changes for starters. Not going into all different types of conditions, but say
conditions happen to be really light that day, everybody is really scratching for lift. Fly a way forward Cgd plane and I would be willing to bet you are going to many times fly thru some useable lift. Why? Your plane will be too
stable/not active enough for the for the current light conditions. As such it wont indicate lift as well and you very well may fly thru useable lift that could get you that little bit of extra time needed to put you in the wood.
I say be flexible w/Cg, learn to tune AND fly your plane in/for all different conditions/Cg settings.
Walter

[Jurgen]

......For Mark Drela's incisive comments on aileron-flap coupling, see RCSE post #143892. ....Maybe i'm not familiar enuf to fine-search on the 143892 number but it was a pain in the @. Did find an article i think you refer to:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158021
as post number 3

Thyx for the tip Tony,
Jurgen.

[roydor]

Walter,

I don't compete in TD but can tell you that in F3J I don't choose a model to fit the conditions. I don't believe in a special model for a specific type of weather, in my opinion you need a model that is versatile and that you can master in all weather condition otherwise you might not get a chance to train and be good enough on that model in the "special weather" that almost never happens. Its wiser to fly "all-weather" models that can take strong launches in strong wind and are light enough for light conditions.

Sometimes its a hard tradeoff because light is not as strong, so you can't be really light and so you have to stay at a wing loading of 30 grams/sqdm or higher.

That's why I personally never had a "super light" model. I actually did very well with normal weight model (Superior v 2150 grams, Superior x 2100 grams, Perfect 2250 grams) against "super lights" in EC 2005 and WC 2006, probably because I know my models well and get the best possible performance out of them due to the fact their stable enough to be flown without mixing the sticks all the time. Knowing a model well is usually better than flaying a "better model" you have little experience with.

As for signaling thermals, I usually identify thermals and light lift through roll and better then pitch so CG doesn't hurt me much. Rate of decent is also a big signal when conditions are really weak and your scraping seconds.

BTW, sometimes F3J guys do have a specialty model but its a super strong one for higher launches in windy conditions (instead of ballast).

Again, this works for me best and might not suit others.

[glderguy]

Yes, it pays to know ones model well. Look at Mike Smith, hes been flying that Sharon it seems like forever and as one result among many others seems to do very well with it. Yes one can get carried away with too rearward Cg,
cross over that fine line and drag penalties out weigh any benefits. Again, you need to fly your plane a lot, in many different conditions, different Cgs and learn how far you can go with it. Like was said, its a personal thing,
dependant on the pilot. I know my planes Cg changes quite a lot from early morning calm to afternoon breezy conditions. I couldnt tell you what my Cg is
as I never bother to measure it after initial flights but do know how much weight to add/subtract to suit me for varying conditions. BTW, dont really like flying with ballast that much unless conditions get pretty nasty, prefer to try and deal with it using Cg/trim changes. There does come a point though at which its ballast time.
Walter

[OVSS Boss]

Walter,
The primary/secondary ship rule in AMA is gone as of 2007, so your assumption is now got to start being like F3J. This applies for all TD events, HL on up.

I am kind of surprised also that you change CG as the day's conditions change. I would think you would be chasing trim changes all the time. But if it works for you , then more power to it.

Marc

[Wing-span]

I've been thinking of using the available memories on my PCM 9X II to store duplicated model memories which are 'trim tuned' to different weather conditions. ie light air trimmed, medium air and heavy/windy air trim pre programmed in. These model memories will have the trim set up to be adjusted for the different amounts of ballast these conditions may require.
So all I have to do is look at the weather and say hum? X wind speed today Y lift about, so I will try the medium air setting. This should get me in the ball park to have the model dialled in very quickly and easily of any given condition.

Does anybody else do this or do you guys think this is not really needed?

[jojoen]

I've been thinking of using the available memories on my PCM 9X II to store duplicated model memories which are 'trim tuned' to different weather conditions. ie light air trimmed, medium air and heavy/windy air trim pre programmed in. These model memories will have the trim set up to be adjusted for the different amounts of ballast these conditions may require.
So all I have to do is look at the weather and say hum? X wind speed today Y lift about, so I will try the medium air setting. This should get me in the ball park to have the model dialled in very quickly and easily of any given condition.

Does anybody else do this or do you guys think this is not really needed?
That`s why you have those lovely digital trims for each flightmode ;-) Well 10 hours to a real balls event. Weather forecast says 20m/s on the coast but good weather (well ok winther with snow on the ground....) so I will be flying F3J 3 teams 9 people tomorrow (the hard core). The THICK lines are in the car!!! And yes I go forward CG in windy conditions but not more forward than to F3B speed settings (if I fly that F3B model). And thats still far back. If I fly the Perfect it will probably be around 110mm (dive test will show far forward in neutral camber I guess).

[Wing-span]

Sure JoJo,

But each flight mode can be pre adjusted to the weather conditions. It would save one having to make 5 different flight mode trim adjustments. ie all flight modes would be ready to go.

I'm sure this would be of help as I know my models all behave differently in different wind and lift conditions.

PS. If you don't fly the Perfect does this show a limitation of the plane? What would you fly instead, a Giant maybe?

[glderguy]

No kidding, more than one plane can be used next year in TD? Will that be the standard for all 2days now or just the Nats? I usually fly a pretty
rearward Cg with a very "active" plane. Will fly that way as long as conditions warrant. If it goes to the point I am constantly having to chase plane around w/excessive control inputs then we adjust Cg/trim a bit. Not really difficult, a simple trim adjust isnt all that hard to do especially if you are familiar with your plane. I just personally like to fly a rearward Cg.
Walter

[OVSS Boss]

All events are now multi ship in 2007, including the Nats, but it is not exclusive. At least in our area, when folks have deferred the Pri/Sec ship rule, no one hardly ever changes.

And ya, I fly rearward too, but that applies day in day out, I get the ship set and fly it.

Tomatoe/tomahtooo, either way works.

Marc

[jojoen]

Sure JoJo,

But each flight mode can be pre adjusted to the weather conditions. It would save one having to make 5 different flight mode trim adjustments. ie all flight modes would be ready to go.

I'm sure this would be of help as I know my models all behave differently in different wind and lift conditions.

PS. If you don't fly the Perfect does this show a limitation of the plane? What would you fly instead, a Giant maybe?
I always use my trims. The conditions are never equal so the trims are my best friend. In and out of different air I do a few clicks.

Yes the Giant is the preffered choice when the going gets tough and I need to penetrate hard winds. About 4 hours away ;-)

[Wing-span]

Good luck JoJo. Sockittoum! :p

[jojoen]

Good luck JoJo. Sockittoum! :p
Thank you but it was too much wind :mad:

Only 4 people flew as a practice day in sunshine and with the snow dissapeared (travelled a bit south for this) but high winds (10-15m/s with 20 in the gusts. That is 22-33mph and gusts 44mph). The competition was not started. Some carnage. A Graphite built up broke a joiner on launch and a Pike Perfect went down in turbulence at low altitude behind some trees.
The starts today on 400m mono (200m to turnaround) was extreme and cool. We flew Brio, Crossfire, Pike Perfect, Graphite and X21. All held up fine and all was bending good.... except the Graphite offcourse.... VERY nice day for me and had a lot of starts with both thermal and speed practice.

[Wing-span]

Well done to all the pilots. Shame about the casualties!

My next competition is on the 10th December. Wish me luck as I hate the cold!!!

[davidjensen]

One thing I use for CG trimming was taught to me 2 summers ago. When flying your ship in moderate winds at moderate speeds and turning off wind to start your circle, how much elevator do you need to hold up the nose as the plane moves through the varying air speeds (downwind). I found the farther back I went the better the circle became. I then found out that I was so far back I had some distrubing tuck under in a dive. I did find a fine line between the two and my 7037 airfoil works great in light to moderate wind conditions. This sound just opposite of what Roy is advocating.

[joefj]

regarding Arends Supra exploding on launch I was one of the team members (the third Canadian also flying Supras) the fuselage tailboom interface did separate but on close inspection I saw what apeared to be a dry layup in Kevlar used in the wing which was looking like a limp rag. It was hard to say if the wing letting go took out the tailboom or the other way around! in hindsight I believe that Kevlar has no business to be in a hollow molded wing aside from perhaps skin hinges for control surfaces. in this regard I believe that Jojo's aproach to the all carbon construction makes more sense!
As for those who were really watching launch height... I am sure that Rolf Oetter was usually close to the top launchers in his heats wing flex or not! his line pretension was HUGE and my arm was really loaded up!

joefj

For the record, Arend's Supra failure was at the pod and boom interface. I think this joint saw one too many hard landings. This joint is made by the end user and the method Arend used failed at an in-oportune time. Fortunately for Arend he has a lot of experience with this level of competition and maximized his score in the other qualifying rounds allowing him to tolerate the failure and still win the preliminaries.

As far as being able to launch higher with a stiffer model (so far my bagged Supras have been strong enough - knock on wood), I'm not sure if it would make that big of a difference. I plan on eventually making some Supras with high modulus carbon spars and that should answer the question. Part of the reason I want stiffer wings is to help with controllability on launch. On a crooked throw it is my perception (valid or not) that a stiffer model is easier to get back in line.

The main culprit causing the flutter in the molded Supra's was the servo installation. The light skin required the servo mounting area to be stiffened up. Sub ribs on each side of the wing servos connecting the top and bottom skin seemed to fix the flutter issue in most cases. I don't think this is a unique problem to the Supra. I have seen a Pike Superior SL with the same problem.

I think one of the main reasons there were more Perfects in the finals at the WC was because of the teething problems with the molded Supra. As Roydor points out there is too much at stake in a world championship to take a chance on a model that has had some concerning structural failures. Arend and Rolf, the two "Canadians" ;-), had spent a lot of time and effort sorting their Supras out and understood what was needed to make them work.

Vladimir took an aggessive approach trying to keep the weight down below 1700 grams on the Supra. This is not an easy task for a production sailplane of this size with an airfoil that is only 8% thick at the root transitioning to around 5% at the tip. My understanding is that the current production models have the structure sorted out. However the early failures left an impression.

Samba took a more conservative approach with the Perfect and started heavy and worked their way down. For pilots going to the world championships, this approach gave them confidence in the structure of the Perfect. This combined with an excellent flying model lead to what you saw in Martin.

Just some rambling thoughts

Tom

[jojoen]

regarding Arends Supra exploding on launch I was one of the team members (the third Canadian also flying Supras) the fuselage tailboom interface did separate but on close inspection I saw what apeared to be a dry layup in Kevlar used in the wing which was looking like a limp rag. It was hard to say if the wing letting go took out the tailboom or the other way around! in hindsight I believe that Kevlar has no business to be in a hollow molded wing aside from perhaps skin hinges for control surfaces. in this regard I believe that Jojo's aproach to the all carbon construction makes more sense!
As for those who were really watching launch height... I am sure that Rolf Oetter was usually close to the top launchers in his heats wing flex or not! his line pretension was HUGE and my arm was really loaded up!

joefj
I did not see the launch.
I guess I am the only one with no kevlar on the inside layer. I was a bit hard on Barry and Vladimir on this but I got them to make my wing with glass layer on the inside instead of kevlar. I am pretty sure my wing is much stronger than the others. Kevlar probably makes the wing durable but not strong in torsion. A simple glass layer is in my opinion much stronger. I completed my wing during the first days of the WC and flew it in the competition. Maybe a bit stupid of me.. but anyhow even if I tried to break it I did not manage that. I had so much pretention that my runners complained that they wanted other handles on the turnaround ;)
Rolf and Arend had good launches. But Arend was sometimes dangerous as when the tips twist and lost power (torsion twist) his model wiggled from side to side sometimes. I did not look close to so many other launches as I mostly tried to take some time off...
The same thing happens to the Perfect but then the wind is well above the F3J limit (12m/s). Tested with single carbon 68 version.

Looking back at the WC I dont think it would have mattered what I flew since I did some simple stupid mistakes anyhow. But my second Perfect will arrive for Christmas I hope. I have not ordered a new Supra. Have considered several times to sell the Supra but it is a very fun model on small places with a bungee. It is also so similar to my Perfect that practice with that will give me confidence flying the Perfect also.

[glderguy]

That was a very politically correct method of dicing the Supra JoJo, have you ever thought about becoming a politician? :D
Walter

[jojoen]

That was a very politically correct method of dicing the Supra JoJo, have you ever thought about becoming a politician? :D
Walter
Well cant say it is crap since it is not... I have a lot of models (6 F3X models all good to go and 3 new ones on order...) and the Supra is right now my number 2 model of them in F3J.

Personally I dont seen any other contenders on the market that does what the Perfect and Supra does in F3J/TD. Though I cant speak for new models not seen by me up untill now.

No way I am going for politics ;-)

[Silent-AV8R]

I do not have a Pike Perfect, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night (OK, I didn't - but I have seen several fly. Pike Perfects that is, not Holiday Inn Express').

I have a Sharon Pro 3.7. I like it very much. It is VERY ORANGE. I can easily say it is the best TD plane I have ever owned. It suits me. But, it does have a couple of small items that could be better. Based on what I have seen, the PP fixes those. The biggest problem is the vertical on the Sharon needs to be bigger. It takes LOTS of rudder to counter the adverse yaw. Not a problem, but just more than usual. And it IS more drag when you flop the rudder hard over. Like I said, he Pike Perfect appears to be a Sharon Pro with the minor flaws fixed.

But be that as it may, this is yet another example of the search for the Uber-plane. What I know is this. While I am not as good a pilot as some, I am better than many, and sorry to tell you folks, once you are in a certain ball park of planes, it REALLY is the pilot.

Case in point. At our last monthly contest at TPG there were 13 or so pilots. There were 6 or 7 Sharons. Mike Smith was there. Aaron Valdes was there. For those not keeping score that is 2 out of 3 of the US F3B Team. Along with the usual group of other So-So TPG pilots (read as the guys that will be in the top 10 at most big contests). It was damn near a One Design contest there were so many Sharons. In the end, it came down it pilot skill. I sincerely doubt that the plane made the difference. The Dude with the TX made ALL the difference. (Except for me - I had two long flight targets in legendary bad air and due to bad timing I missed a couple of landings - Smith and Valdes will do ANYTHING to win!!).

I guess what I am saying is that unless you are among the group that was in the top 15 or so at the Soaring Masters it really does not matter what you fly once you are flying a certain level of model.

It is all well and good to get hung up on the latest greatest, but that misses the point that most of us (I meant YOU) really can't fly well enough to know the difference. While it is great fun to get caught up in intellectual conversations about which plane flies the best, and so on, it really amounts to little more than mental masturbation for most of us.

Bottom line is pick a plane you like and fly the crap out of it. Learn what it does in every possible part of the flight envelope. Fly it until it is a part of you. Then, maybe, you will be at a point where WHAT you are flying is more important then HOW you are flying it.

Then look at the fact that Mike Smith won the NATS, the Soaring Masters, and made the US F3B team flying a Sharon (Yes, even after too much Sake at the Sushi bar I know he did not fly a Sharon at the Team Trials). Why?? Because he knows what the plane will do before even it knows what is happening. Trust me, he is not that good! (OK he is, I just can't help but say nasty things from behind the key board).

OK, end of rant. Find a plane you like. Fly the crap out of it. Beat your friends badly once you can. And thank your lucky stars you don't live near me. I am no threat, but I get to fly all the time against Wurts, Perkins, Smith, Jolly, Valdes, Reagan, and on and on and on. Honestly, I am thinking of moving to Ohio. Maybe I could beat Marc -"I'm on 71" Gellart once in a while!!! But probably not!!

And yes, I have been drinking, thank you very much!!!!! :p

[jojoen]

True and not true not matter what condition you are in :rolleyes:

There are differences on models today. But can you meassure them on just looking at scores? no. But you cant that on what wheels they use in rally either. Though the only one with one brand does come in to service with blown up tires every day... He cant change because his team is comitted...

[OVSS Boss]

Despite his state of mind, or lack there of, Aresti is right in 98% of the cases. Yes, ships improve over time, and major leaps come every now and again, the Falcon 880, the Icon, etc. But a lot of guys could be flying Sapphires and flying just as well today as the moldies they fly, and I am including me in that group.

Just as AM, I fly my Insanity and have a good time and keep learning.

Marc

Hate it when I agree with AM, but such is life...

[jojoen]

But have you guys tried the handling of a Supra and Perfect? (Set up right offcourse). Here is the largest evolution. No not only rudder... Also consider that a model will perform in many conditions. Sorry the Sharon and Insanity will have some problems in F3J in some conditions. Especially in the start... And yes I have both flown against the Insanity and ALL the versions of the Sharon. I even had the old version (5 piece wing) Sharon they sold from Jasa model with extreme marble design (piece of art).

[Silent-AV8R]

Hate it when I agree with AM, but such is life...

Buck up. You'll get over it. :D

[Silent-AV8R]

But have you guys tried the handling of a Supra and Perfect? (Set up right offcourse).

Marc really got it right (he agreed with me, so I have to agree with him -think about it). What we are saying is that it is true that there are highly refined airplanes out there. And yes, maybe even some that offer advantages over another, BUT, only a very few around are talented enough to really notice and utilize those advantages. For the rest of us the group of models that offer us more than sufficient performance is a bit larger (like anything that does not have Monokote on the wings).

I see so many guys that change models so often that they have no hope of getting to know how it really performs. This costs them more than any possible increase they may get from chasing the current Uber-model.

One final thought. I hope they got it right with the Pike Perfect. Since it IS perfect they have nowhere to go ;) What can possibly follow it :confused: The Superior Pike Prefect Pro or something like that??

[jojoen]

Yes, yes you have to agree with one that... ;)

But NO. all will feel the difference and have a better time flying for example a Pike Perfect compared to a Sharon. The Pike Perfect is easier to fly and therefore easier to achieve a better result with because you feel more comfortable and can spend more time looking at the more important air around the field!

The price is the same also (ok local differences maybe). So why buy a Sharon instead of a Pike Perfect?

The Insanity though might be a cheaper choice that still flies great. But it does not offer the same finish.

OK I know it all comes down to personal opinions so I think we should stop here and instead find some faults on the Pike Perfect (According to the title). Is there any? Yes Samba are still making changes as they always do. Samba listens and if we can find things in this discussion that needs to be refined I am sure they will do the changes if they can.

[OVSS Boss]

If I was to buy a new moldie right now, it would be a Perfect, it is a nice ship. But I am cheap and bagged Insanities and second hand molded stuff works. I realize that at the hard core end of the world, I am not loaded, but will do the best I can with what I got. In my world, the enemy in the mirror gets in the way of success way more than any of my old airframes.

Marc

[dhauch]

But I am cheap and bagged Insanities and second hand molded stuff works. I realize that at the hard core end of the world, I am not loaded, but will do the best I can with what I got.
Marc

Marc, you need to be saving your money for a f3b plane anyway!!! :)

dh

[mlee8249]

Wow, what a variety....just like the common sphincter muscles....we all have one.

My philosophy has been fairly similar to AM. Select a plane that is hopefully as good as you think and spend the time to really get to know it. Or, as I used to write in my column, get to know that plane intimately. That means you take the time to set it up correctly, balance it to your style of flying, tweak it to roll, pitch and yaw the way you like it, get it to fly the best it can for all conditions including camber and reflex, and then practice, practice, practice. Only after you have done all this work can you honestly evaluate the plane and find out if it is truly doing the job for you. I only recommend going to another plane if you feel the plane you have is not capable of doing something for you that you need it to perform. By the same token, you better be able to take advantage of that capability and use it, or you simply wasted the time and money.

An example of this was my flying of the Lazurite. Nice plane and it certainly did it's job of winning contests for me. It floated like I wanted, it thermalled easy, it landed like I wanted...but it could not cover as much space as I wanted to when I asked her to. I looked around for quite awhile and jumped on the opportunity to fly the Shadow due to the large size and light weight combined with a reasonably fast airfoil. This plane gave me what I wanted without losing what I had with the Lazurite. That paid off in the first contest it flew. I was very lucky with the Shadow as mine was the first one to show up in the U.S. with a cross tail, (that I know of). Now as I continue to work with the Shadow, and others are now starting to fly it as well, I find my tweaking of my Shadow is far more advanced than the other Shadows coming to my field, and I find myself helping out the other guys with the set-up. Make no mistake about it, if you don't take the time to make the plane fly at the best that it can, you may never find out what it is truly capable of doing. And you might think the plane is a complete pile of guano. That being said, I have no doubt in my mind that any pilot flying a Sapphire, and knows it well, can easily fly head-to-head against any moldie in a TD contest and win. You cannot buy your way to the winner's circle. Skill and experience with complete knowledge of your plane is going to give much better odds. I didn't say you were going to win everytime. I said you had better odds. The Perfect is very good plane. Very good! But, the best plane does not win contests. The best prepared pilot with the best prepared plane is going to win.

Mike Lee

[Jim Frahm]

This is a great thread with tons of information. I’m relatively new to soaring and I subscribed to dhauch’s theory of, “buy them all”. I started out with a Graphite and Mistral. Both were pretty good planes. I later purchased an Escape from Lenny K. and built an Xperience Pro (MIBO) once my skills improved. Towards the end of this season I purchased and built a Pike Superior. I was competing in a local contest with my Xperience Pro and after day one was 600 points out of forth place. All three pilots ahead of me were flying Superiors. On the second day I maiden my Superior before the start of the contest and then asked the director if I could switch planes and he said no problem. I flew the Pike for the remaining rounds and ended up only 200 points out of forth. No, I didn’t win, but I was flying a new plane in a contest and I made up 400 points. That’s how good Samba models are. Now for something new… I just took delivery of a Mueller Espada RL and a Pike Perfect. I plan to fly all three planes next year and then stick with the one or two I like best. The Espada RL is an awesome looking plane, can’t wait for the first test flight and of course the Perfect is just what you’d expect from a plane with that name.

Now if the weather would cooperate, I could get some stick time. I plan to attend the SWC in AZ the second weekend of Feb, but I’m not sure if the Espada or the Perfect will fit in a Sport tube. I may have to mail both planes to the event. What’s the best way to ship these things?

Thanks for the great info,

Jim

[OVSS Boss]

"Marc, you need to be saving your money for a f3b plane anyway!!! :)

dh"

I know man, I got a Fazer back in the quiver, and that is step one! It can do double duty for a start.

Marc

[Wing-span]

Which models are regarded as competition for the Perfect currently? I'm guessing Philip K designed this model to best all the rest but there must be other planes out there that give it a run for it's money. What about the other plane that won the world championships this year? Are there other viable alternatives with the performance for those that want just to be different? Every body has a choice.

[jojoen]

If the Sahdow now comes with a X-tail (As mentioned here) that would be a choice.

Espada is also interresting but can be a handful for some like The Pike Giant. But both are not for fresh pilots. But good choices ranging many conditions.

[Mark Miller]

Evolution XL. Kolb did the wing like on the Perfect. Has a blend of MH032 and Philip Kolb airfoils.

Mark Miller
Isthmus Models

[Wing-span]

Espada is also interresting but can be a handful for some like The Pike Giant. But both are not for fresh pilots. But good choices ranging many conditions.

Jojo. Do you think this is because of the wing secton in use on these plane or simply the plan form of the aircraft that makes them a handful? I have a friend who flys the Giant and finds it hard to find the optimun flap settings, yet he is very experienced (35+ years) Th Giant needs some positive flap all the time for regular cruising right? and no reflex?

I like the look of the Espada RL and I personally think it does give the Perfect a good run for its money. I could possibly be a better plane. Did Cody R get more points than David H in their flyoff's? Or does this count for little...possibly?

[jojoen]

Evolution XL. Kolb did the wing like on the Perfect. Has a blend of MH032 and Philip Kolb airfoils.

Mark Miller
Isthmus Models

Evolution seems like a good model. But for the record the Perfect does not have a blend from MH-32 and it is not the same airfoils.

[Chipwillis]

JoJo... what is your reason for saying the X tail Shadow vs. the V tail?

I know the X tails have more control on landing, but what else?

[jojoen]

Jojo. Do you think this is because of the wing secton in use on these plane or simply the plan form of the aircraft that makes them a handful? I have a friend who flys the Giant and finds it hard to find the optimun flap settings, yet he is very experienced (35+ years) Th Giant needs some positive flap all the time for regular cruising right? and no reflex?

I like the look of the Espada RL and I personally think it does give the Perfect a good run for its money. I could possibly be a better plane. Did Cody R get more points than David H in their flyoff's? Or does this count for little...possibly?

Yes. planform and airfoil changing outwards thru the wing, elevator AND rudder makes the Perfect more easy to fly.
I fly my Perfect 90% of the time with 3mm camber (meassured at flaps). But this is what is very good on the Giant. You can change the camber according to the conditions and see the reaction of the plane almost immediately. With many other planes you need to wait for the speed change for a longer time to see it.

The Espada RL also does have some issues in circling. (atleast how I see it. Dont hang me for it)

You can not look at Junior rounds and compare to Senior rounds. This is why we have finals. SO that you are flying in the same slot as the others. All other (prelim, TD, etc) is just qualification to the finals.