Is Standard Class (100" span) dead and gone?

[fly1milehi]

Okay lots of fantastic 3 plus meter moldies and 3 plus meter ultra light, ultra strong composites..... Some nice 2 meter moldies and composites as well.. but
BUT.. Where have all the 2.5 meter (100") gliders gone to?
Seems like in wood there is the Oly II, III, Kestral, Big Bird. (and maybe someday the Airtronics line again) In sheeted foam I have seen and own the arthobby Thermik. And in molded or composites I havent seen much at all....

So is the Standard class sailplane dead and gone or am I just missing some manufacture's offerings?

Just wondering whats wrong with the 100" sailplane

Greg

[mlee8249]

Nothing wrong with them....I love them! And if I could find a cherry lookig Sagitta 900 like Larry Jolly did a few weeks ago, I'd be in Standard Class heaven! But, you can blame the demise of Standard Class on Open Class giants. There is no substitute for square inches when it comes to thermalling.

Mike Lee

[Andy W]

You're right. I've been on the lookout for a good 100" sailplane for NEAC sport sailplane. There is very little selection in this size..
..a

[fly1milehi]

I understand the no substitute for wing area and Aspect Ratio since I used to fly F3B and have had serveral awesome 130 inch thermal birds too. BUT I also see the need for smaller planes on smaller flying sites, planes that dont break the bank and planes that pub building it yourself back on the map.

Just seems like maybe we have overlooked the joy of building your own plane without the need for foam cutting, bulk epoxy resin buying and measuring individual rib weights.

[histarter]

Check out Appendage.

Bigger machines satisfy the larger volume of air to be played with. Having events that cater to smaller machines may be the spark to inspire more entusiasts. :D

[pmackenzie]

Nothing wrong with them....I love them! And if I could find a cherry lookig Sagitta 900 like Larry Jolly did a few weeks ago, I'd be in Standard Class heaven! But, you can blame the demise of Standard Class on Open Class giants. There is no substitute for square inches when it comes to thermalling.

Mike Lee

It is not on the web site, but Star Flight (http://www.jutstar.com/sf/) is selling ARF versions:
Sagita 600 $350
Sagita 900 $375
Don't know if that is $US or $CDN.
Contact info for Alex is on the web site.

[daveosoar]

My local club wanted a simple RE model to try a simple summer evening comp. Sort of electroslot but one design. 5 up ,30 sec motor run ,last down to win.If more than 5 to fly a second round exactly the same. Fly off between the winner of each round.
Simple? Here in the UK 5-8 minutes would be good with a 10 min limit.
So go buy 10++ models at 100in with a 600 motor!! 3 month's later we found ONE having checked every European manufactuer/supplier. Tell you more when we tried them.
Daveosoar

[bobby legue]

No its not dead at all. Skybench has the Oly ll for sale and its popularity has not dwindled. There is even a version with a 3014 airfoil thats pretty hot. It is however not as popular with the manufactures as it used to be as a lot of people want larger planes. The bigger planes fly better theory.
I have in my hanger 4 100" planes. Some days I like to get the 2 and 2.5 meter planes and go fly just to relax.
Bob

[Richard S]

In the UK many pilots fly a 100inch RES model called the Tracker.

It is a fully molded model and can take VERY strong F3J launches.

I cannot offer any more information at the moment except that it is either designed or produced by a guy called Bill Dulson.

I can possibly put in a bit more research about this model if it is of interest

[Wing-span]

I agree with you Richard, the Tracker is a great plane. I'm sure it would suit American T/D competitions down to the ground.

Is anybody familiar with it over there in the States?

I would love to see the wing stretched to 3m, with a flapped polyhedral wing.

[Resurgam]

With due respect, I think Wing-span sums up the problem. 100" planes are great, and they'd be even better if they were bigger ... :)

[fly1milehi]

Okay.. the Tracker is a 100" RES moldie? RnR had a 100" moldie for a while but at the moment I cant remember the name of it. Regardless I am not seeing much in the range of build it yourself and fly it yourself. I for one would love to see seem updated Sagitta type kits.
yes I understand that composite bagged foam or molded is more accurate, stronger and can be more "fluid" in the drag department.
BUT......
How about a more simple to build 100" bubble dancer type plane? Long live the Standard class!!!

What else would make the 100" class more interesting? Limited power winches? NO Skegs for spot (DORKED) landings?........ yes Im trying to stir the pot of controversy a bit

[fly1milehi]

If the wing span is the "problem" why are 2meter models still more "available"???

[BMatthews]

If the wing span is the "problem" why are 2meter models still more "available"???

Because they still have a faithful contest class following. I remember even when I went to the US Nats in 89 that Standard class had only a few entries while 2 meter and Open were crowded. So even back then it was a dwindling class.

If you're just looking for a smaller and more managable size of model there's some options in the 100 to 120 inch size class.

[Resurgam]

I think one problem is that there aren't enough thermal enthusiasts to support 2m, standard, and open classes. Next, while 2m and open class planes are very different animals, there's often not a lot of differentiation between standard and open, but bigger planes generally fly better. Unless one is really cramped for space, standard has few if any advantages over open (may be easier to spot land, I guess). So IMHO standard is kind of stuck in the middle without a compelling reason to exist.

[Batmanwpg]

http://www.rnrproducts.com/airframes/gliders/summa.htm

Take a Sig Riser 100 and beef it up. Mine was a great standard sailplane and had several victories over the moldies. Very easy to fly.

[histarter]

http://www.rnrproducts.com/airframes/gliders/summa.htm

Take a Sig Riser 100 and beef it up. Mine was a great standard sailplane and had several victories over the moldies. Very easy to fly.
Well said. I too had several victories over the Summa with an Oly, Shuttle, and a friends Riser. :)

The Summa huffed and puffed on the histart, and also launched a bit low on the sport winch - but if it broke into the upper air; it then gave me a hard time forcing me to max (or else!). :eek: :D

[fly1milehi]

Resurgam,
Well said and a good point about the difference between standard and Open class performance. 2M and Open are very different and take a different approach to fly them well whereas the standard and open classes even fly similarly.

I do wonder though if we applied some of the new materials and building techniques to Standard class planes if they might fit a niche and gain some popularity again?? Just thinking out loud
Greg

[fly1milehi]

The SUMMA!! thats the RnR plane I couldnt remember.. thank you HiStarter.

Sounds like it wasnt the ultimate 100 RES . I looked on the site at RnR but looks like its not offered anymore.

Greg

[Tim Wolff]

I have a Summa that I mothballed a couple of years ago. There are a few issues. Most have to do with quality assurance on the fuse. Really crappy execution for the final product. The imported open-class moldies have rasied the bar very high on our expecations of a molded sailplane and the workmanship on the Summa didn't measure up. My issues with the plane were more or less "poo-poo'ed" by RnR.

It does fly great. The energy retention compared to an Oly-II is unbeleivelable. Had to have spoilers to force it to land and I fly my Oly-II w/o spoilers.

[Batmanwpg]

The SUMMA!! thats the RnR plane I couldnt remember.. thank you HiStarter.

Sounds like it wasnt the ultimate 100 RES . I looked on the site at RnR but looks like its not offered anymore.

Greg

Like I said in my previous post http://www.rnrproducts.com/airframes/gliders/summa.htm
still available
If I were to build a new standard class airplane I would get a Art Hobby
JK Thermic 2.5 or RES version. I have the 2M Boar and with a few mods it is one heck of an airplane!

[fly1milehi]

I have a JK Thermik already. Its a nice plane but it just doesnt make me want to go out and fly. Cant really put my finger on why I feel that way about it but if I try to describe it I would say its "too sterile" Very predictible, needs better glide path control for landing, seems a little fragile in the tail section, doesnt do anything bad,,,,,,, but doesnt seem to do anything great either. Its hard to explain but its like it doesnt have any personallity.

[Batmanwpg]

I have a JK Thermik already. Its a nice plane but it just doesnt make me want to go out and fly. Cant really put my finger on why I feel that way about it but if I try to describe it I would say its "too sterile" Very predictible, needs better glide path control for landing, seems a little fragile in the tail section, doesnt do anything bad,,,,,,, but doesnt seem to do anything great either. Its hard to explain but its like it doesnt have any personallity.

Do you have the kit tail feathers on it? Nice finish on those planes by the way!

[histarter]

Resurgam,
Well said and a good point about the difference between standard and Open class performance. 2M and Open are very different and take a different approach to fly them well whereas the standard and open classes even fly similarly.

I do wonder though if we applied some of the new materials and building techniques to Standard class planes if they might fit a niche and gain some popularity again?? Just thinking out loud
Greg
More food for an experimenters class as an appendage to current events. ;)

Standard stimulation, along with flying wings and things while nursing newbies into competition. :D

[fly1milehi]

Batmanwpg,
yes the kit supplied V-tails are on the JK thermik. I just happened to photograph it from the right angle to make them look kind of out of place. The covering is just ironned on Ultrakote. Im thinking its time to sell it a build something Im in love with... maybe a 100" version of the Bubble Dancer? ..

Greg

[Batmanwpg]

Sent you a pm

[fly1milehi]

got it Batmanwpg.. thanks for the input

[Tim Wolff]

I have a JK Thermik already. Its a nice plane but it just doesnt make me want to go out and fly. Cant really put my finger on why I feel that way about it but if I try to describe it I would say its "too sterile" Very predictible, needs better glide path control for landing, seems a little fragile in the tail section, doesnt do anything bad,,,,,,, but doesnt seem to do anything great either. Its hard to explain but its like it doesnt have any personallity.

Darn near an identical description of some girls I dated before I found "the one". :D Esp. "fragile in the tail section" and "doesnt have any personality". LMAO!!

[fly1milehi]

OMG!! I love it.. would you care to describe your idea of "Fragile in the tail section"?.... my wife is still laughing after reading your post Tim!!
Greg

[Tim Wolff]

Not in a "family" forum :)

[Batmanwpg]

Darn near an identical description of some girls I dated before I found "the one". :D Esp. "fragile in the tail section" and "doesnt have any personality". LMAO!!


Quick, someone forward this to his ex-girlfriends! :eek:

[fly1milehi]

Funny thing is.. Im not sure which part is worse.. the fragile tail section or the lack of any personality.....

Maybe Tim is a 'Wolff' in sheeps clothing??? Har har.

Maybe we should get back to finding any good reasons to have 100" sailplanes besides the obvious need to compare their ass sets to our other most loved hobbies..
greg

[bobby legue]

You guys make laugh outloud. I gotta get a life!
Bob

[alstrahm]

FYI, I contacted Alex at Star Flight and he informed me that he had one small run of Sagitta's in April and is all sold out and has no plans to import more at this time. What a shame!! I sold my Sagitta 900 in April this year and have been regretting it ever since. Oh well on to my quest of finding another one.
Allen

[fly1milehi]

Im kind of without words on the sagitta's 'availability'. To my knowledge the rights and licensing etc belonged to Dreamcatcher Hobbies until recently when it and most of the Airtronics line was sold to http://www.aerosphereonline.com/index.htm

SO .. Im confused as to who was 'kitting' it and when? Interesting it was being imported to Canada.. from where???

[Ercoupe Ed]

Sagittas were originally kitted by Airtronics.
Recently I saw them offered as an ARF, but don't recall the name of the outfit.
Later Dream Catcher, until Roy retired and sold out to Aerosphere.
Still waiting to see when they get geared up and selling kits again. Until then I guess if you can get some plans and scratch build one, or one pops up on Ebay, or one comes up for sale in this forum you'll just have to wait.
For now I'd keep an eye on Ebay.
Ed

[fly1milehi]

I have the sagitta 600 and 900 plans from RCM so I can scratch build one any time I have time.. Allen (alstrahm) posted their were available from a supplier in canada for a time.. so I was just trying to figure out how "kits" got "stocked" their when they are supposed to be unavailble......
Since original NIB Airtronics kits go for pretty big dollars on Ebay it doesnt seem likely that the supplier had a pile of long lost airtronics sagitta kits so Im wondering what their origin was?

[tw126a]

Esprit Model had both the Sagitta 600 and 900 as an ARF for awhile last spring, imported from the Czech I believe. Don't know what happened to them. Take a look at the Bird 3000, remind anyone of something? I bought one a couple of years ago, on the box it says Bird of Time. Hmmm, welcome to the murky world of licencing.
Tom

[Aerosphere]

We have full laser cut woody kits for the Sagitta 600 and 900 in the pipeline.

These are the real deal and not cheap ARF copies.

No time estimate for release yet. F/G fuselages will follow the woody release.

Drop us a line at info@aerosphereonline.com if you have any preferences you would like added to the kit.

-Scott

[pmackenzie]

Believe it or not, someone (who IMO needs to get a life) reported my post about Star Flight selling ARF Sagittas.
All I did was post something that was in my Club newsletter.
How would I or could I know that there were any copyright issues involved?
What's next, report anyone building from kit plans?
There are many who feel that buying a kit only entitles you to build only one plane.
Pat MacKenzie
P.S.
Aerosphere, you might want to check the rules about excessive advertising.

[fly1milehi]

Well try to make a living designing and you may feel diferently about seeing your designs "plagerized, borrowed, copied or stolen" Intellectual property is just that property! Model airplane designs are indeed copyrighted property. Dont think so? Just try copying any of the popular electric ARF by Great planes or Horizon and see how long it is before you get a cease and disist order. This subject has been debated here in R/C groups before and there are those who understand it is stealing and others who think its "no big deal, cause' its not really hurtin' no one" I STRONGLY disagree with those who think its no big deal.
There are many independent manufactureres who not only read these forums they also contribute greatly to them in knowledge, research and bringing new products (ie kits, ARF's etc) to our doorsteps to enjoy building and flying.

Interesting side note. Even the Wright brothers ended up having to sue and file law suits to protect their designs in the 1900's!!

P.S. Im not the one who reported anything but I sure as heck will defend anyone who has taken the trouble to create plans, kits, complete models or anything else related to the R/C Hobby.

greg

[pmackenzie]

Fine, but why would I be reported?
Someone asked where they could get one.
The week before there was a blurb in our club newsletter, so I passed along the information.
I don't sell them or make them.
I do know Alex a bit, but only see him at the odd contest or fun fly.

If the standard is that you can't even discuss the availability of something without first checking that all of the rights are secured by a third party,
then there are forums on here that should be completely shut down. Micro helis being one example, any form of scale models being another.



Pat MacKenzie

[alstrahm]

Pat, I am so sorry, I am the one that inadvertently reported your post. All I was trying to do was follow thru on your post by contacting Alex to see if he had anymore Sagitta's, and he asked me where I had read that he even had any to begin with and I sent him the link to this thread. It was not until our 4th e-mail that I found out about the copyright, or , ownership issue and apparently he was contacted by Aerosphere about this issue and had promised not to sell anymore. I did not know about the right's to plans issue and am sorry for stepping on any toes.
Allen

[LVsoaring]

http://www.rnrproducts.com/airframes/gliders/summa.htm

Take a Sig Riser 100 and beef it up. Mine was a great standard sailplane and had several victories over the moldies. Very easy to fly.

DITTO! I had a Riser 100 that flew absolutely superb! Sadly, it met its end when a wing mount bolt failed on the winch, but prior to its demise, it was an excellent flyer, especially for a gasbag. I reinforced the spars, upper & lower with 1/4x.007 cf from root to tip, replaced the standard steel joiner rod with drill rod, and she didn't flex at all (that I could see) on launch, even with a heavy foot on the pedal. I have another one on deck to be built, and I'm gonna mod the wing by adding upper and lower sheeting forward of the spar. Would like to hear any comments, for or against this idea.

Cheers!

Rick

[pmackenzie]

Pat, I am so sorry, I am the one that inadvertently reported your post.

Accepted. Thanks.
Pat MacKenzie