What's easier to thermal 3m, 2m, dlg?

[soholingo]

My only experience thermalling is with dlg, and to be frank outside of keeping the plane up for about 1-2 minutes, and the ODD 4-8 minute flight (that's REALLY odd). I don't seem to catch many decent thermals. And EVERY thermal seems to be a struggle. I mean, I get the plane in the thermal, and then I have to fight it. Once I "fall out" of the thermal its difficult to get back into them. That said is the 2m and 3m easier to thermal?

Thanks...

Jay

[EricSoar]

DLG is the hardest unless you get really good at it. Thermals are hard to work when you are near the ground. It is the purest form of thermalling.

2 metre bungy launch models are great. Cheap, easy, and good. The Multiplex Easy glider is excellent (does not like wind though).

3 metre models thermal well and can have a faster section to penetrate wind and fly a bit faster.

My personal preference for thermal gliders is 2 metre bungy launch pure gliders or 2.5 to 3 metre electric thermal gliders. With the electric, the larger wing span helps to compensate for the power system weight.

I am flying:
- 60 inch on the slope
- 2 metre Ion electric warmliner
- 2 metre (Easy glider) thermal glider (or light lift slope)
- 2.7 metre (Elegant 700) electric thermal glider

My favourites are the Elegant on the flat and the 60 inch on the slope. The first one I would drop is the warmliner. I don't really need it when there are excellent slopes near by. Warmliners are bit like sloping on the flat but its not as good as real sloping!

[Richard S]

I find it much easier to spot and work lift with my dlg's than any of my f3j models.

Your model being much closer to you and it also reacts much more obviously to lift than a larger model, are all factors that aid thermalling.

The difference with a larger model is you have more time to decide if you are in good air or not, and they are more stable.

If you are having trouble keeping your DLG in lift, I would suggest it is badly trimmed.

A few quick questions :-

What model are you flying?
What sort of CG location do you have?
What differential are you using on the ailerons?
Are you flying turns mainly with the rudder?
Have you ever tried using a snapflap in thermal mode?

Richard Swindells

[thelocust]

Thermals tend to be better-formed at higher altitudes, as they aren't "stuck" to the earth at that point, and they are no longer rolling over or being deflected by objects on the ground. So, you could posit that thermalling with something that lives it's life at higher altitude would be easier. 3-meter ships fly better than 2-meter ships, so I'd have to side with the 3-meter for strictly thermalling.

However, *finding* thermals is the domain of the DLG. 4-minute tasks in a handlaunch contest are rare, with the most popular tasks being 2 and 3 minute flights. That isn't often enough time to thermal to altitude, so you have to be adept at finding and exploiting that low-level lift that is, at times, still stuck to the earth or being affected by features on the earth. It's hard! Those thermals won't normally break off and "develop" until they hit something, like a tree line. It helps considerably in handlaunch to learn to trust your plane and "fly it like you stole it" over trees, houses, cars, whatever.

So, for working thermals, the big ships are better. For understanding how thermals work, DLGs are better.

[OVSS Boss]

For many reasons other than just what Ben has pointed out concerning atmospheric considerations, many aerodynamic numbers favor larger ships. The modern DLG is a very capable ship, but you are in a quirky world under 130'. The DLG can teach you alot but any erratic controlls and it is hosed. The big ship gives you dynamics, better LD, min sink, controllability, and the air likes bigger things period. Just the reality of the circumstance.

Marc

[Ollie]

Easy thermal depends on:
1. Flying skill
2. Low wing loading
3. High launch
4. Strong thermals
5. Timing of launch
6. Plane's trim
7. Plane's design
... Maybe later
?. Size

[rdwoebke]

Jay,

I think you need to re-evalute your success. I think you are actually doing pretty well. That, and flying DLG really teaches you a lot about working lift.

Think of it as a sort of "soaring factor". You said you can do 60 seconds with that Photon in "no thermal" conditions (aka, flying straight out and straight back sort of thing). so if you get a 2 minute flight fairly often, you doubled your flight time.

Now take a 3 meter plane. If you winch it or high start it and it can do say 4 minutes dead air, then an 8 minute flight is the same thing as your 2 minute DLG flight.

DLG flying is a lot different than TD flying because you have multiple flight goals in any given scoring period. Like 5 2s in 10 minutes, 3 3 minute flights in 10 minutes, etc. You need to learn things like how to leave lift and land then relaunch into it, or how to leave lift, land, then know where the next thermal "should or could" be.

All good stuff.

Ryan

[Fly2High]

This is what I have found out about gliders:

I think that it is easier to find lift at a higher altitude than at a lower altitude. That being said, you are at a higher altitude with a winch/ histart launched plane than a DLG/HLG.

nothing says you can't build a light histart for your DLG and get it to a higher than throw altitude.

I like DLGs better b/c they respond faster to inputs. The bigger and heavier the plane the more it is like driving a truck compared to a sports car.

Indication of a thermal is based in part on wing loading and CG location. A light wing loading will indicate better than a heavier one. Moving the Cg back will also help indicate lift better

Again these are my observations

Frank

[Wing-span]

(Have you ever tried using a snapflap in thermal mode? Richard Swindells)

Richard could you please expand on this? and explain the uses, techniques, principals etc?

I guess the idea is to increase the camber for those low down smaller thermal bubbles when you are turning tightly? or am I wrong?

[gustabmo]

Larger wingspan no doubt buys you better overall efficiency. It´s not a coincidence that wingspan is one of the primary distinction between classes, for instance limit of 1.5m wingspan for DLGs, 2m RES classes, 15m and 18m classes for full scale sailplanes, etc.

Easiness to thermal is included in the overall efficiency I mentioned, but it´s not everything.

I started flying F3J in the beggining of this year and only on the day I flew my Sharon 3.7 several times and immediately after got my XP-4 I realized what the larger wingspan, larger aspect ratio, cleaner design, etc means. The XP-4 felt like a brick!!!

That´s not an indication of pure easiness to thermal... the larger Sharon needs finer elevator control during turns, needs more space to turn, is less agile when looking for the thermal core, and, most imporant, the big $$$ involved on a crash makes it very difficul to save the flight at really low altitudes. :D :D

[rdwoebke]

Have you ever tried using a snapflap in thermal mode?



Unless I am mistaken, I think Jay has a 2 channel DLG. He has a Photon and I thought he had the Rudder/Elevator version. If he has the flapped version then I guess he could use snap flap.


Ryan

[soholingo]

Yes my photon is a 2 channel R/E no flaps. I wanted it simple. I also wanted to learn how to controll the plane without the landing control. The plane comes in faster than I want on some landings, and the challenge is gauging whether I am going to have enough speed to go around. That said a flap would make it easier all around.

[rdwoebke]

Jay,

Have you been keeping a journal of your flying? That really helps you assess where you are as a pilot.

There is a really good video that was made by Joe Wurts that really helped me. The 3 R's of soaring. Reading the air, Riding the lift, and Re-Coring the lift. I found at one point I was OK at reading the air, but not really riding it as well as I could be. Then when I got better at that I was not as good at re-coring it if I lost it as I could be. All stuff to work on.

Ryan

[Mike K]

There is a really good video that was made by Joe Wurts that really helped me. The 3 R's of soaring. Reading the air, Riding the lift, and Re-Coring the lift.

Ryan

Where is this video from?

Waded through four pages of google links, nothing comes up.

Oh, and for me, I'd still say my 6 foot modified Drifter II is easier to thermal than my OlyII. Easier to manouver. Still, had 20 minutes last Sunday on one of my OlyII flights, even with all the wind.

Thanks.
Mike K.

[rdwoebke]

Where is this video from?



It was sort of produced by Joe Wurts and John Roe as a fund raiser for the 2000 F3J team. I don't think it is sold any longer.

Unfortunatly, I loaned my copy to some guy that up and disapeared and I never got it back! :mad: :censored:

Ryan

[pocket rocket]

a badly set up, badly trimmed and forward CG plane is difficult to thermal.

a well set up, well trimmed plane with CG almost neutral is easier to thermal because it signals lift better which means you the pilot then knows it is in lift.


also in my experience the experience helps, our someone else's experience helps, so get a tutor who knows how to do it, and fly a lot, more than once a weeek.


Philip

[will_newton]

Jay, think of it this way. LAUNCH HEIGHT!!!!

handlaunch +100 ft
hi-start + 200 ft
winch launch +300 ft

It's not necessarily a matter of which thermals better, but of the increased chance of finding viable thermals.

My main thought is this. On your long DLG flights where you feel like you can thermal for days, it's one heck of an accomplishment just to get up to an altitude you can do that. Launch a 3M off the winch and the same flight is almost Ho-hum...

My favorite flight has been coming in for a landing with my DLG, feeling a bubble at 15-20 feet and riding that sucker to speck height. Only coming back because you're worried that the batteries going to die. Then finishing off with a sweet hand catch. It's rare and beautiful and leads to jumping around and yelling "WOOHOO!"

It's hard to do and that's why I love flying DLG more than anything. It's hard and frustrating, but when it clicks.... WHEEEEEE!

[soholingo]

It's hard to do and that's why I love flying DLG more than anything. It's hard and frustrating, but when it clicks.... WHEEEEEE!

I think that sums up my thoughts. It IS hard and it IS frustrating. My first intro to dlg's was at polecat a few years ago, where I was watching MASTER'S fly. They REALLY make it look easy. I was at that contest with a FLING (the old version that needed a high start) and thought well if I get a better plain I will be able to fly. I flew Allan's Gambler, and I Dr. Drela's original super gee. I then bought two blasters and an xp3. And after getting frustrated that it wasn't as easy as I thought, I decided to back track and get the photon. After seeing someone win the sportsman class with a poly, I knew that ship was simple enough yet good enough to teach me what I needed to know whithout the complications of camber, ailerons, etc...

Now that I am starting to get it I want to do better. I have a 2 meter and an electric 3 meter, and I am wondering if I wouldn't be better served learning to thermal on those. That said I am getting in more flights, launching higher and my flights are getting longer with the photon so I must be doing something right.

[rdwoebke]

Now that I am starting to get it I want to do better. I have a 2 meter and an electric 3 meter, and I am wondering if I wouldn't be better served learning to thermal on those.

Use all 3.

There will be days when you don't have the field option to fly a hand launch, but you might have the field option to fly an electric glider. And having multiple gliders going at once you might notice something about one ship that is a bit off or something that makes one fly better, try the same trick on the other. Then you are really learning.

Ryan

[will_newton]

Jay, the folks I know that fly every kind of glider tell me that none of large gliders help them fly DLG, but that DLG helps them fly everything else. :D

BTW you should come on down for the East Coast Handlaunch Festival next weekend here in NC. Next Friday, Sat and Sun!

[screamin' eagle]

Jay, are you flying at the same spot every time?

I found that flying my Photon at the local park was an exercise in frustration. Too much unbroken grass and not enough sources of lift. I had to "fly it like I stole it" over buildings, trees, etc to try and find lift. My best flight there is still only in the 8 minute range after 4 months.

The other spot I fly near my home is a clearing in a small canyon. Practically every flight there is 3 minutes at least, and I got my now-famous 31:08 flight there (and only came down because I was late for work). Man was that Epic.

By the way, I'm going back to the Photon. Great, great, great ship.

[imack]

Jay, the folks I know that fly every kind of glider tell me that none of large gliders help them fly DLG, but that DLG helps them fly everything else. :D I would second this sentiment. To thermal a DLG, especially at low altititude, often requires a great deal of patience. You need to hang in with those thermals that are just in the process of being formed, and this usually involves going MUCH further downwind, down low than you would normally have to off a winch or hi-start launch. I know I never tried to do it with bigger gliders before flying DLG, but with DLG it's a must. If not for DLG, I don't think I would have developed the skill/nerve to do this.

As has been stated, the thermals are much easier to find and larger higher up. If you really like the way your hand lauch flies, just put a hook on it and use a hi-start to get it up a bit higher.:D

Ivan MacKenzie.

[balsaaddict]

Jay,
I agree with every thing said previously. I am not an expert on DLG, but have a suggestion. Try to go to a free flight meet and watch the guys pick air to launch into. It probably won't help much with contest flying (I haven't flown in one yet, next weekend in NC though will be my first). It is neat to watch the thermal indicators some use - mylar streamers on poles, bubble generators and the ever popular "cat tail fluffies". Most will launch into thermals everytime. I'm not talking about the power guys either, but more on the rubber and glider types.
On days you are just flying for fun and practice and you can wait to try launching into good air, it may just ease the frustration. Also, and you may already realize this when you feel the wind pickup, you can launch and immediately go downwind and pick up the thermal that just passed through.
Just my two cents - it is fun and frustrating. It wouldn't be as much fun if we specked out on every toss, now would it? :)

[soholingo]

BTW you should come on down for the East Coast Handlaunch Festival next weekend here in NC. Next Friday, Sat and Sun!

I was planning on making that my last contest of the year, but my wife scheduled me for a wedding. No worries I will be out next year and this time the contests will mean a lot more.

Eagle,
Glad you getting back on the photon...31 minutes??? SMOKES me... my best is still under 10.

Also, I fly in one primary field. Its big enough for me to range the photon out, and has enough variances to keep it interesting, ie diitches, tree lines, tall grass, short grass, empty street, etc... I can see what each one does to the photon. What's killing me, is that I want to rebuild my photon as it has the control rods on the outside, and quarters taped on it, but I can't bring myself to change it...

[GaryO]

I keep telling myself, with my dlg, it's not the long flights that are important. It's when you can make the 2 min and not get over 30 feet from the ground :)

Now if I could just catch the darn wing tip :(

[xtc]

i dedicated this past season to flying DLG along side of the normal bungee fliers and i know for sure!! i spend more time in the air than the winch guys

my flights are much shorter except for the odd 30 min flight but the glider is probing all the time


call it power learning!!


also ,i totally disagree with switching gliders often ,, i learned this from fullsize DONT keep jumping around between gliders STICK with one and get dialed in otherwise you never really get to know any one glider


xtc

[Jurgen]

It was sort of produced by Joe Wurts and John Roe as a fund raiser for the 2000 F3J team. I don't think it is sold any longer.

Unfortunatly, I loaned my copy to some guy that up and disapeared and I never got it back! :mad: :censored:
Where is the Dave Thornburg video, where is the Joe Wurts video ??
We (new kids on the soaring block) need those more than the ever available woodywoodpecker films.
RadioCarbonArt is good but we want Dave and Joe also. We want it ALL :)
Someone please distribute them on DVD.
Jurgen.

[dr.E]

I have both videos :D I'm just not computer savy to copy vcr onto dvd format.....

One day I'll send them to Jay ;)

[soholingo]

I have both videos :D I'm just not computer savy to copy vcr onto dvd format.....

One day I'll send them to Jay ;)

I can do the transfer just let me know...

[screamin' eagle]

Eagle,
Glad you getting back on the photon...31 minutes??? SMOKES me... my best is still under 10.



The funny thing about that flight was that only the first thermal was difficult to core - after I was at 350 feet or so, there were thermals everywhere, and it was practically mindless - circle anywhere and the plane would go up. At the 20 minute mark I dropped down to about 150 feet and was getting nervous, but by minute 23 I was back up to 400 feet. I could have hit 60 minutes if I had enough battery power and enough time, but my neck was getting stiff and frankly - it was getting a bit boring. :eek:

[screamin' eagle]

BTW Jay, the Photon that Clay H is building for me will have pushrods outside instead of inside like my last one. Clay says he builds every plane that way, and my understanding is that there is much less slop/play in the linkages that way since you can support them the entire way back to the tail.

I never believed how much difference this could make in launch heights - but when my stupid GWS Pico rudder servo locked up and put the Photon into a spin, I swapped it for an HS55, and got an extra 15 feet on every launch from there on out due to the increased holding power.

Another example is my Encore - rudder linkage was horrible and launches weren't even 40 feet. I taped the rudder to the vertical, and got it to 90-100 feet on the very next launch. Stiff rudders matter a lot.