speck height for an open class sailplane?

[Curare]

Okay, it's been eating at me.

I've been questioned about the speck height of a glider, some say it's no more than 400m other's say more. (namely me)

Has anyone come up with an altidude of an open class, and 144" glider?

[OVSS Boss]

At the Nats, I had an XC ship at 2300' and the stab was pretty much out of site. Now it's span was 4M, but a bit less cord than most TD ships.

Marc

[Tuomo]

Current F3J planes are much smaller than XC ships. However, it is no problem flying them to 600 meters (1800ft). We do that routinely. My friend thermalled his Stork2 to over 1km (300ft) (and landed succesfully) in a 10 minute competition flight :eek:

We log the flights with Alti2 logger that should be quite accurate.

[Sparky Paul]

I've measured a 2M at over a mile.. somewhere past 6000 feet recently.
All that could be seen was the wing.
Totally clear sky. Otherwise it would have vanished even against clouds.

[nuevo]

Sparky, that photo isn't even close to spec'ed out. We can still see the stabs and fuse. :D Of course, you do have a 200mm lens, so maybe not directly comparible to the eye.

I had my fusion spec'ed out a week ago. It was below cloud base, but was quite far away. No idea on distance or altitude. I could only see a thin line of the wing for about 1/2 of the circles. My vision at distance is better than 20/20.

[Ercoupe Ed]

Spec heigth would also depend on the RC pilots eyesight.
I used to attend the Great Race XC race near Aurora Illinois , been quite awhile back, I guess about 1989 if I recall, maybe 86, but we had our Constellation way up there, maybe close to 4,000 feet, and it looked "tiny".
Joe Wurts flew the race also and his ship was waaayyyyyy up there, I couldn't see it, but he could, so I would say Joe has exceptional eyesight

It can be a real challenge to get one back down from these heights if you don't havbe spoilers or flaps!


Ed

[Sparky Paul]

Sparky, that photo isn't even close to spec'ed out. We can still see the stabs and fuse. :D Of course, you do have a 200mm lens, so maybe not directly comparible to the eye.

...
.
Yup... reduce that 4x to 50 mm.. and then try to find the airplane! :)
The only I could was to look in the direction Tony was looking.

[Joe Minton]

Sparky Paul:

Does Tony work for beer? LOL

Joe

[larry vincek]

A number of years ago we had a Sailaire at 4400' at approximately 30 deg from vertical. Thats roughly 5000' from where we stood. The wing was covered with opaque red Monokote and was the only part of the plane that was visible. There were no distinct clouds that day but a slight haze in areas where I suspect the lift was topping out.

[jbrandon]

I just came in from flying today. Great day, good lift, very light breezes to keep things mixed up. I got my 130” Meteor up to 1845 feet and all I could see was the wings, no stab, and no fuse. Wings and stab are solid red on the bottom and the fuse is white on the bottom. That is about it for me but my eyes are getting older. I can verify the height as I used a RAM II to record the altitude and I was flying almost overhead so that may add 200-300 feet to the total distance. So for me I would say 2000 feet would be specked out and even at the 1800 feet today I was uncomfortable flying as I could not tell what it was doing. I basically down trim and let her fly.

Joe Wurts flew the race also and his ship was waaayyyyyy up there, I couldn't see it, but he could, so I would say Joe has exceptional eyesight
I remember flying with Joe Wurts in Taft many years ago and we actually accused him of faking the flight (in a joking manner, of course), we never did see his plane except for the launch and landing, rest of the flight was “specked out”!

[Lowaltitudephoto]

I've measured a 2M at over a mile.. somewhere past 6000 feet recently.
All that could be seen was the wing.
Totally clear sky. Otherwise it would have vanished even against clouds.

Can you explan the photo in this post? I can't figure out what I'm looking at.

Also, what is the best way to get down from spec heights? I have a flapped bird and am new, so 700 feet makes me nervous. I guess you have to be careful not to overspeed the airframe?

[Lowaltitudephoto]

Oops, now I see the plane (after closer look). Still can't figure out what that blog thing is to the left.

[spatial]

I'm pretty sure it's the TX antenna... but not sure given the bend. is that just optical distortion at the lens edges or a streamer tied to the end

[Sparky Paul]

That's a very well used antenna. Bends come naturally over the years.
Due to the extreme difference in distance from the camera, the antenna gets blurred.

[Sparky Paul]

Getting down... Tony was wishing for spoilers. On one descent the wing did get into flutter, but it didn't maintain that.
If you have sufficient control deflection, spinning works.
But not for too long a period, the descent speed can build up rapidly.
Slight dives with the plane off to the side so you can see the descent rate works.

[green66]

Just got back from a trip to the folks' place in Montana where I got my electrified and bashed Windsong pictured (Windsong wings + MPX Fiesta fuse + own tail) up to 1945' per EagleTree data recorder.

Was in a boomer and having real difficulty coming down (plane has only rudder & elevator control); got panicky and ended up doing loops, sloppy 'spins', etc to descend..... otherwise might have been able to go 2500' before losing it.

Assuming good vision, I'd say for an 11-12 footer with an aspect ratio of around 17, that 2000' is a safe limit; seems to jibe w/ most of the other posts here.

[soarrich]

3400 feet, 120 inch, ~1200 sq in wing, out at ~60* so that would put it about 5000 feet away, the plane was a spot maybe as big as a comma, the next flight was I think 1000 feet higher, (it took 5 minutes to get down to about this high which I was OK with), At it's highest the plane was as big as a period that changed from light to dark so I knew I was seeing the top of the wing or the bottom. The reason I don't have it recorded is the memory was full in the RAM 2. This was using the Berg 4L Rx, great RX. :cool:

[green66]

A 10-footer at 3400 feet :eek: ....besides the heights mentioned in a couple other posts in this thd. Good grief, how DO you people keep the plane in sight??? Do you dare look away to rest your eyes, or do you stay fixed on the plane the whole time? I need a strategy.... starting to feel wimpy at sub-2000' :)

[soarrich]

Do you dare look away to rest your eyes, or do you stay fixed on the plane the whole time?


Look away...rest your eyes.. you got to be kidding, I try not to even blink! Years ago I had sunglasses made that where/are too strong for my eyes, I can't see squat closer that 10 feet with them, but they're great for distance.

[Ercoupe Ed]

I just came in from flying today. Great day, good lift, very light breezes to keep things mixed up. I got my 130” Meteor up to 1845 feet and all I could see was the wings, no stab, and no fuse. Wings and stab are solid red on the bottom and the fuse is white on the bottom. That is about it for me but my eyes are getting older. I can verify the height as I used a RAM II to record the altitude and I was flying almost overhead so that may add 200-300 feet to the total distance. So for me I would say 2000 feet would be specked out and even at the 1800 feet today I was uncomfortable flying as I could not tell what it was doing. I basically down trim and let her fly.


I remember flying with Joe Wurts in Taft many years ago and we actually accused him of faking the flight (in a joking manner, of course), we never did see his plane except for the launch and landing, rest of the flight was “specked out”!


At the GREAT RACE which I don't think is even held anymore, our team flew the fastest course time ever, and about 2 minutes layer, someone said, well some guy from California just beat you by at least an hour.
The course is 42.6 miles long, we flew it in about 2 hours 2o minutes, and Joe comes whizzing around at just over an hour!
He never landed, kept circling,croossed the start-finish line, got back in his chase vehice ( A ford pickup) went around the course again and came in at I belive just under an hour!It is still the fastest course tiime for that race and course.
Not only that he wasn't flying the biggest or fanciest sailplane there.
But a ship he called WILEY COYOTE which actually looked like it had a lot of flight time on it. It was LIGHT GREY in color about a 11 foot span, and how he ever kept his eyes on it, I'll never know.
But I recall Joe and his wife and his helper as some of the nicest folks I ever met!
People in aviation are just that way!


Ed

[Desert flier]

Thought I would share todays flying with you guys . Went over to my mates place with my 2m e glider and had about 40min until my neck was stiff . He then took his Rock 2000 up and was climbing nice when snap the wing broke in two fuse came down like a dart with the wing doing gentle spins until it flutterd to the ground radio gear was still fine the wing broke at an old repair. Next he decided to take the little newtimmer for a flight a great little floater very relaxing to fly. Well it got up a bit turned the motor off and still up it went smaller and smaller all I could see was a spot and my mate could not see it at all I went to the ute to get the bonoculars that I now always cary ( dont ask why ) My mate was getting a bit paniky as he could hear a faint zooming noise every now and again but could not see anything I was searching the sky with bonoculars but was not finding it easy to pick up . Eventualy I locked onto it seeing it dipping up and down in tight circles ( did not want to pull the wings of two gliders in one day) eventualy I was able to guide the glider back yelling out left right and soforth untill it came back into easy sight We were very relived to have it back on the ground without having to send a search party.

[MTT]

My friend thermalled his Stork2 to over 1km (300ft)

Eeeeeh... 1Km = 1000m would be 3280 ft....... :)

[Andy W]

A lot of people are uncomfortable with any size model over 1000' or so. Some regularly fly @ 2500-3000' and have no concerns. My AVA is clearly visible to me at over 2000', but I haven't flown it enough to get it higher yet. My 2m ships ave regularly got up to 2000', and that's about the limit of my "comfort zone" - but it also depends on conditions.

So there's no simple answer.
..a

[Hostage-46]

Getting down... Tony was wishing for spoilers. On one descent the wing did get into flutter, but it didn't maintain that.
If you have sufficient control deflection, spinning works.
But not for too long a period, the descent speed can build up rapidly.
Slight dives with the plane off to the side so you can see the descent rate works.

In a steady state spin, there will be no speed build up.

The indicators of a spin are;

Stalled wing
Steady airpeed
Autorotation about the yaw axis


If the speed is building, your not is a spin, your in spiral, and yes you are in trouble ....

With proper training a spin is nothing to be afraid of, in fact, airmail pilots stuck above an overcast used to spin down through the clouds and recover when they broke out .... I can imagine a 40 psi lip lock on the seat pan waiting to break out ;)

[Sparky Paul]

In a steady state spin, there will be no speed build up.

The indicators of a spin are;

Stalled wing
Steady airpeed
Autorotation about the yaw axis


If the speed is building, your not is a spin, your in spiral, and yes you are in trouble ....

With proper training a spin is nothing to be afraid of, in fact, airmail pilots stuck above an overcast used to spin down through the clouds and recover when they broke out .... I can imagine a 40 psi lip lock on the seat pan waiting to break out ;)
.
Few gliders have sufficient control authority to get into a true flat spin.
Spoilers are a safer method, and useable for other situations.

[Richard S]

This is with a 60" DLG (over 3000ft)

Flown by Martin Godden in the UK

[everydayflyer]

A simple means to determine How High.

http://rcreporter.com/

[Daemon]

I (and several others) regularly spot land 48" combat wings at the bottom of the
mountain we fly from. It's 900 feet down, and 2900 feet out (according to
GPS). Have thermalled 60" hand launches up to "," size which I'm pretty sure is
around 3000 feet. Thing is, most specked out flights aren't vertical
so there's a lot more distance from the plane than just what the altitimeter
reads. Also, the color of the bottom of the wing and whether you're flying
against clouds or blue sky makes a huge difference in how high you can
go. People have often said to me "bottom of the wing appears dark no
matter what color it is, so it doesn't matter.." Thing is, I've found that
any color other than black simply "specks out" sooner. Black offers
the best contrast. I've seen dark red, and blue and kevlar colored wings
all disappear long before my black bottomed wings. I've had flights where
if I wasn't flying against a white cloud, I couldn't see the plane at all, and
had to hop from cloud to cloud to keep track of it. The nastiest
situation is when you're that high and downwind and every time you
point toward home and drop the nose it disappears, and any time you
spin (to see it) it drifts further down wind. Fun stuff.

ian

[Lowaltitudephoto]

I've been flying for just less than a month and 932 feet is my limit. I can still see it pretty good but find it disorienting when I can't tell if it's climbing or coming down. I start to get cold feet around 900 feet as that is about where it 'disappears' looking at it from the back, and it's also where I lose my perception of climbing or not climbing. I guess if I could ever learn to find a thermal I could get it much higher as when I settle it out, turning motor off, I can see it very well even at 900 plus (3 meter bird).

[soarrich]

I can still see it pretty good but find it disorienting when I can't tell if it's climbing or coming down.

I have a 2 meter e-sailplane from Hobby-Lobby that I have ths problem with, it's covered in transparent yellow, I can see it, I just can't tell what it's doing. :o
If you want to see it use any one of my 3 color schemes. :)