Which would you buy?

[davidjensen]

Soaring USA is having a sale. So which would you get for all around TD.

The Vision
The Stork 2
The Shadow
The Experience Pro 3.3

The next question is would you get a v-tail or an x-tail.

[trend.ab]

Vision with X-tail. Most modern design, V-tail easier to set up.
Beat

[Radian]

From the list I'd first go with Xtail Vision. Then a Shadow

Another alternative is the Pike Perfect.
This was my personal choice and is now my new contest ship.

Radian
www.phflyers.com

[mfwilliams]

Had to throw in about your new toy.........right.

[Tuomo]

The Vision
The Stork 2
The Shadow
The Experience Pro 3.3


Vision and Experience are modern allround F3J planes. Shadow is different. It is more comparable to Sharon, a floater.

Nothing wrong with Stork2. It has been around for a while, but it is still capable to win competitions. It is easy to fly ;)


The next question is would you get a v-tail or an x-tail.

Your preference. X-tail is more easy to take apart for transport and is in some respects more straightforward to trim. V-tail is simple, light and thus stonger in competition dork landings.

Some years ago x-tail seemed like the way to but now it looks like v-tai is coming back.

[Hoot]

I have the Vision V. Haven't flown it yet but the workmanship is outstanding.

[ThermalBuster]

Get the Experience Pro 3.3. Its got the longest wingspan.

'There is no substitute for wingspan'

:-)

[Jim Frahm]

Hello David,

I own the Xperience Pro v-tail and it's a great flying plane. I compete with it in F3J and TD events. Both the Vision and Shadow are later generations of the Xperience Pro from Mibo. If I was going to own another plane from Mibo I'd go with the Shadow cross tail. Actually the Shadow has the longest span at 3.65 meters.

Jim

Soaring USA is having a sale. So which would you get for all around TD.

The Vision
The Stork 2
The Shadow
The Experience Pro 3.3

The next question is would you get a v-tail or an x-tail.

[Tuomo]

Get the Experience Pro 3.3. Its got the longest wingspan.

'There is no substitute for wingspan'

:-)

So why dont you fly Shadow - 3.7 meters?

EDIT Oops, already said by Jim :o

[Chad Sullivan]

I love my Eraser Extreme. The v-tail version is reasonably priced. I have both the v-tail and cruciform versions. I know it's an old design but it's such a patient design it has it's place. No bad habbits at all, and is a dream in the landing zone. Don't know that Icare ever has these on sale. But it's worth considering.

[ThermalBuster]

OOps. Buy the Shadow. It has the longest wingspan.

I stand corrected!

Thermals

[georgeg]

From your list, I'd go with the Experience Pro X tail. The last time I looked, the Vision and Shadow x-tails weren't available yet, tho there was a Shadow x-tail at the recent F3J championships. If the Shadow x-tail was available, I'd go with it.

[Barnsey]

A friend brought one or two Shadow x-tails to our soaring Nats in August. A most impressive-looking ship and so light unballasted. Can't remember if he used it in the fly-offs, which he won.

John

[Goinav8n]

Were they prototype Shadow X tails. I was told they werent out yet

Jeff

[Shortarse_Yoda]

The experience pro v-tail is without doubt the nicest flying F3j I have ever flown. It's the only model which I have ever setup on the bench and never really touched. It launches really high and turns at range easliy. With it I've been able to completely turn around my flying to the point where I came second in a Eurotour event see http://www.acemodel.co.uk/news.html If you you want a really good solid work horse look no further!

KInd regards to all SY.

[Barnsey]

Were they prototype Shadow X tails. I was told they werent out yetProbably. My friend said there were three in the world at that point, one in the US and I think he had the other two.

John

[jazz8388]

[QUOTE=Tuomo]Vision and Experience are modern allround F3J planes. Shadow is different. It is more comparable to Sharon, a floater.



I've been comparing some of the F3J airframes on the market. Specifically the Experience Pro 3.3 and the Shadow. Is this the consensus that the Shadow is more of a "Floater" or is this just one persons opinion? How would you compared the two? I'm looking for an "all-weather" design. Any feedback would be appreciated

Thanks,
Steve

[davidjensen]

From what I know the Shadow is the newest design and the largest wing. This spells floater to me. The X-tail may not be available here in the US for quite a while. The Experience has a faster airfoil than some of the other TD ships and with the light loading (10+ oz/sq. ft.) making it a great all purpose TD ship.

[hbielich]

The Shadow is very light for its size as well!

[Bro]

David:

At Visalia you can buy:

Experience Pro Vtail
Experience Pro Xtail
Vision Vtail
Tsunami Xtail (nobody mentioned this one, and it should be)
Stork II Pro Xtail UHM (new light layup) way stonger too

At Visalia you can see, and see Fly:

Experience Pro X
Stork II Pro X not new layup
Shadow Xtail.. yes it will fly there, and be in our booth.
Pike Perfect
Pike Superiors
Tsunami X, and maybe Vtail too!

You can decide for yourself, but, they are all good. AND they will be priced right too! ;)

Happy Landings!
Bob

www.SoaringUSA.com

[little flyer]

I cant say I have flown anything you have suggested. Bob just suggested the Pike superior which I have flown. I was truely amazed by the performance of this airplane. It launched high, floated, covers sky, and most imporantly thermaled extremely well. On my third flight with it I was able to get a hand catch, that gives you an idea on how well it slows down. The Pike is my first full house moldie and I cant say anything bad about it.

Jeff Walter

[davidjensen]

I will look you up Bob. The drive down will now be much shorter.

Thanks

[jazz8388]

I appreciate the feedback guys.
Can anyone help me understand the difference between the Pike Superior airfoil (HQW 2.5/8)
and the Experience Pro airfoil (HN354). Do these airframes perform the same,
launch, float, penetrate?

Thanks again,

Steve

[Tony Bermudez]

Bob,

Would love to see some pics of the Shadow X and of what you brought to Visalia.

Thanks and lots of lift

[ploof]

Hey there, Dave

Speaking of Pikes I got my first winch launch in Sunday here, which wasn't nearly as scarey as I figured it would be, I was totaly amazed at how well that beast takes to the lift. The roll is a little different then what I'm used to with the DLG's, but I think that will just take a little getting used to besides that it's a totaly stabble ride I was getting it down to a crawl with no tip stalling showing up. Here's a couple pics of Russ's Pike, and a couple blurry DLG's the lift was cookin I road that Blaster from about 200' to around 1100' twice.

Take care, Ploof

[Bro]

Tony:
there will be many, no worries...
We already started last week... ;)
Product review coming soon!

Bob

[mlee8249]

Hi guys,

As Bob mentioned, there will be a Shadow X-tail there at Visalia...because I'm bringing it and flying it! It is a large model with 144 inches of wing using an HN504 foil. With camber, it floats lightly yet remains responsive to input. In reflex, she motivates well and retains energy very well. It has a built-in ballast tube in the fuselage, able to hold about 16 inches of ballast slugs. Depending on what you use for the ballast itself, this means you could add some 24 ounces of weight to the model. I have made my slugs from 5/8" brass tubing filled with lead shot, cut into 1.5 inch slugs. This allows me to load 8 slugs which weigh 1.65 oz each, plus a tension spring and end slug for 13.5 ounces of weight ballast.

The total weight of my model is 75 ounces, which translates to a wingload of 9.5 oz/sq-ft, and that's light for this large of a wing. Because I can ballast quickly and easily, I consider this plane an all weather model, and will use it for that purpose. My former bird, the Lazurite was and is a wonderful light day aircraft and I only worry about her when the wind comes up above 12-15 MPH as I cannot ballast her. For that reason, I backed her up with the Fazer. I don't think I will need to do that anymore.

The one thing I want to say about the Shadow is that I have not been this excited about a single plane in a long time. Shadow feels great in the air, handles well and performs outstanding. I rarely will put a new plane into competition within one week of a maiden flight, as we just did, but the Shadow is going to be an exception. I let no less than 5 other pilots fly this model on flights No. 2 and 3 of her first day out, and each pilot was impressed with the performance. Sure, I call the color of the model "peuk" green, but after this first day of flying, we referred to it as green envy.

Am I excited about this plane? You betcha! No, I don't work for SoaringUSA, not am I a sponsored pilot. In fact, if anything, I have been flying for Hobby Club for the past 5 years. Shadow is part of a new generation of planes, which includes the Espada RL and Sharon Pro 3.7. You'll know what I'm talking about when you see a Shadow or Espada ping off the line. See you in Visalia!

Mike Lee

[Gldrpilot]

Hey Mike,

Nice to here about your new Shadow but we want to hear more...and some photos please! I saw the Shadow V-tails at the F3J Worlds...they were impressive but I was unable to get much info since I was at the other end of the field (I was one of the U.S. Team's towmen). I am trying to decide between a Shadow X-tail or a Pike Perfect. I currently fly an Escape which is a nice ship but I really like wingspan...

Any info you can add would be great! How was the Shadow in it's first contest at Visalia?

Chris Keller
'06 U.S. F3J Team Towman
Colorado Springs, CO

[Bro]

Howdy:
I couple of pics of the tools....

Happy Landings!
Bob

[davidjensen]

I got me one of the Experience Pro X ships from Bob at Visalia. I could not be happier with the quality and price. At 131" wing span and possibly <74 oz AUW (10.5 oz/sq ft) this will help me do better next year at Visalia (no more excusses).

[mlee8249]

Hi Chris,

Okay, I promise to post some pics of the Shadow for you. Some closer ones so you can see this beauty! Launches are great, thermalling ability is simply outstanding, and she motivates easily in reflex. She flew very well for me and I'm just excited about this model! Now, I'm really looking forward to seeing what the new Vision looks like in cross-tail...should be good!

Mike Lee

[Gldrpilot]

Thanks Bob and Mike!

I've heard some say that the Shadow is not as stiff (wing flexing) as other comparable ships and that it is only good for light to moderate winds (up to 15mph). Sometimes here in CO, we fly in winds a bit higher...as you may know. Do you think the Shadow would be a good all around ship? I don't have lots of cash to get another ship for windier conditions...although I think my Escape will work well for those times...

Mike, it sounds like it can really move and penetrate when necessary. How do you guys compare the Shadow with a Pike Perfect? Any 'bad' handling habits issues?

I really love the looks of the Shadow but several club members are really pushing me towards the Perfect. I think Perfects will be 'a dime a dozen' (I wish) around here by mid season next year. I'm just trying to decide on my next (hopefully :) ) X-mas present...if only I can convince the boss...LOL!!

Thanks so much for all your help/info.

Regards,

Chris Keller
'06 U.S. F3J Team towman
Colorado Springs, CO

[mlee8249]

Hi Chris,

Well, we were looking to see if the wings would bend by really stressing the launch, and they bent only a little bit. I would say it bent less than my friends Sharon Pro 3.7, by quite a bit. As for the wind, I have yet to put her into heavy wind. She is capable of ballast in the fuselage, and I estimate getting about 24 ounces of steel rod in there. (It just so happens that a 5/8" steel rod works nicely for ballast slugs inside). The way she moves out in reflex, I don't think I'm going to have any problems. I know about your weather....I flew the last two Team Selections out there. My primary birds in both events were not able to carry ballast. You learn very quickly how to reflex effectively in those conditions.

As promised the photos of the Shadow...for your viewing pleasure.

Mike Lee

[davidjensen]

Pics of my new Experience Pro X. This is one of the newer layups with the longer nose and larger raised vertical fin with larger rudder. 131" span, 1007 sq in of wing area and I hope to get in under 74 oz for approx 10.5 oz/sq ft loading.

[Gldrpilot]

David,

What a gorgeous ship! I'm really leaning towards a Shadow...Mibo is putting out some beautiful ships!

Does the Xperience Pro X use the same airfoil as the Nyx?? The Nyx never really seemed to "take off" for TD/F3J use...it seemed like the airfoil was more suited for F3B speed runs or slope racing.

Chris

[georgeg]

David,


Does the Xperience Pro X use the same airfoil as the Nyx?? The Nyx never really seemed to "take off" for TD/F3J use...it seemed like the airfoil was more suited for F3B speed runs or slope racing.

Chris


Apparently, the NYX and XP Pro use very similar (but different) airfoils. According to the listings I can find, the NYX uses the HN 354SR airfoil which is 8.05% thick at 29.66% chord and maximum camber of 1.64 % at 44.77% chord. The Experience Pro is listed as the HN354 airfoil which is 7.88% thick at 29.66% chord and maximum camber of 1.93% at 44.77% chord. The Profili website lists 8 different variants of the HN 354 airfoil.

[davidjensen]

So if I translate that correctly the HN 354 will fly faster than the SR (top speed) and with a slightly larger camber range will float OK as well.

Chris The speed isuue was one of my concerns with the Experience until I watched one fly at Visalia last weekend and spoke with the pilot. He said it can float and range equally well. The flaps seem to work well.

[mlee8249]

Hi David,

I believe you might have spoken to Manny Gomez about his Experience Pro. We didn't get that one dialed in until Sunday, as Saturday was almost the first flights for that model. Once we dialed in, the float was pretty good and the speed was very good. Manny likes to do speed runs, so he was pleased with this one. I have flown both the NYX and the Experience, and I will say the Experience felt more stable in all modes. It was definitely smoother in the turns and I had a lot better rudder authority. About the only thing the Experience didn't do for me was to move slightly in yaw when I stabbed the rudder stick. The longer tail moment dampens the rudder on quick shots. If you lean into the rudder, no problem. I have no doubt you are going to enjoy your new Experience. Oh and Manny's wieghs in at 72 ounces.

Mike Lee

[georgeg]

Hi David,

Oh and Manny's wieghs in at 72 ounces.

Mike Lee

Do you know if that is the all carbon wing or the carbon D-box wing?

[mlee8249]

Hi George

Manny has the D-box version. Despite this, it is pretty stiff.

Mike Lee

[davidjensen]

With the addition of the Experience to my stable (along with the Esprit) I now have the spectrum covered. The Esprit floats well and for dead wind days it can excell. I don't mean to equate the esprit to a RES plane or even a Supra or Thermal Dancer but it has suprised me many times with its ability to float. The Experience should do much better in windy conditions and the speed cability will make it just too much fun. So far in my building experience hitting the weight of the manufacture has never come true. Hopefully this time I can make the 72 oz.

[loic_debisschop]

Hi,

I have a D-Box Xperience pro, cross tail. Weight is 73 ounces. No problem with wing resistance on winch launch. About the airfoil: i think someone measured it and it is 8.2% thick. This is very close to the thickness of the HN507 (used on the shadow) so i wonder if it isn't the same airfoil. Can anyone confirm this ?
Anyway: this glider is very good. Glide ratio is one of the best, and it is very easy to go back from downwind. One the other side, there is less lift available for circling, but the large flaps work well to compensate.
I think the Xperience pro V is lighter and it would be my choice if i wanted to keep only 1 glider.

Loïc

[Wing-span]

I've got an Xperience Pro-V.

The Shadow is great but the Xperience Pro has got a slightly different speed range (higher top speed and but will not float as well as the larger Shadow) Don't get me wrong the the Xperience Pro will still pick up small hlg thermals and climb away with the correct flap settings. (about 3/16" or 4mm for thermal setting).

The Xperience Pro can be used on the slope in F3F and on the flat for F3B when ballasted up. Also it is great for TD and F3J. It is so easy to set up and fly. Just get the c/g to 103mm from the leading edge and it will fly hands off at best L/D to the limits of your vision and then come home with a couple of hundred feet still in the bag.

[davidjensen]

The shadow knows

[torcgolf]

me likes the shadow! :D

hey mike, looks like soaringusa only sells a v-tail version of the shadow. was yours a special order?

[mlee8249]

Hi Torc,

I'll be really, really honest....I did get mine from SoaringUSA, and I was just God-aweful-lucky that this one was the ONLY one they had received and I got it. Bob Breaux a SoaringUSA is expecting more, but does not have a firm date on their arrival. I had heard at Visalia that mine was possibly the only one in the country as of this time. The one pictured here by David is the one I own...proof? Look at the tail letters. (Sorry, but I just had to brag a bit!) (Thanks for the picture, David!)

So, how did it happen that I got the only one? This model is the subject of a product review for Fly R/C Magazine. I'm sure that Bob would not have had a problem selling it to anyone else, but my timing was just right. So, I am very fortunate to be at the right place at the right time. I have no doubt that we will see a lot more of these planes very soon.

Mike Lee

[dhauch]

hey Mike,
i have a few detail questions for you if you don't mind on the Shadow

i see that the linkage is top drive, are there threaded inserts in the control surfaces for horns to thread into from the factory ?

Also, what is the ballast tube like, will it take one big bar like the Perfect, or do you have to use smaller slugs via Pike Superior style ?

How does the harness connect at the wing saddle, any pre-molding from the factory for a connector ?

thanks.

dave hauch

[davidjensen]

I also heard the Vision X-tail may make an appearence early next year. Very light with a 3.2 M wing.

[mlee8249]

Hi David,

Answers to your questions:

All control horns need only be threaded into the anchors inside the wing. Those are installed by the factory. You will have to make your own clearance holes in the skin and trailing edge to allow the pushrods to clear, but that's about it. Take your time, measure twice, cut a little and try it. And if you look closely, there are some covers on the horns. These are not stock. I added them to clean up the airframe.

Ballast tube: It uses slugs for ballast. In mine, I figured out that I can use anything 5/8" O.D. for slugs, cut up into lengths of 1.5 inches long. So, using this, I slip into the tube a 1.5-inch spring (just any nice spring will do), then add my slugs, and the last slug to go in will be a 2.25 inch wood dowel. This will compress the spring, and then the top of the dowel will be pressed against the forward former that is glued to the end of the ballast tube. It all stays in place. Using this system, I can get 8 weight slugs, plus the spring and dowel slug in there. My current ballast slugs are made from 5/8" bass tube filled with #8 lead shot, (shotgun shells), and epoxy. Each slug weighs 1.65 oz each, and that allows me to put in about 13.5 oz of weight. More weight can be derived from cutting up 5/8 steel rod and that brings the ballast up to about 24 oz. I don't know how much weight brass will pick up. Haven't tried that yet.

The wire harness. It uses a DB-9 computer connector glued to the wing and the wing saddle. So, you mount the wing and the wires attach with it. The wing and wing saddle are molded to accept this connector. Use only a gold plated DB-9 connector if you want a long life, trouble free connector. And be very careful about the way the wires are soldered to the wing side connector. The wing is not thick enough to be sloppy with solder joints and all joints must be angled away from the connector so that it fits. It is tight, but you can do it!

Mike Lee

[dhauch]

thanks alot Mike for the detail information and pics.

dave

[dhauch]

hi,
don't know if you can on your model without seeing it, but i run the spring up front when possible, this gives it some shock absorbtion on hard landings.

then i run the wood slug in the back with a piece of foam attached to it, or just run a high dense foam plug in the back that's a little over size so it holds in place.
both are easlly removed if need be with a dowl with a drywall screw mounted to or a flexable cable with a screw added to it.

this pic is from my Stratos 6.

just throwing some ideas out there for the class. :)

dh
www.git-r-built.com

[Wing-span]

Great idea dhaunch. This way the ballast won't shift back with the acceleration at launch which would result in a shift of C/G. Not what you need at that critical time!

[dhauch]

thanks,
you usaully need a spacer in the rear to adjust your ballast over the c/g.

dh

[tewatson]

Great idea dhaunch. This way the ballast won't shift back with the acceleration at launch which would result in a shift of C/G. Not what you need at that critical time!

On tow, your CG is at the hook.

Tom

[rrdiaz30]

Here's a good metal weight calculator to help you with ballast calcs.

http://www.bostoncenterless.com/weightcalc.htm

Rick

[davidjensen]

Does anyone know what is at the back of the balast tube? I assume a wood plug of some type. I had a friend with a 2M blade on the slope that had the wood plug pop out on hand launch and all the slugs slid into the back of the fuse. It was not pretty.

[dhauch]

Does anyone know what is at the back of the balast tube? I assume a wood plug of some type. I had a friend with a 2M blade on the slope that had the wood plug pop out on hand launch and all the slugs slid into the back of the fuse. It was not pretty.

sometimes wood, most of the times it's just glassed or carbon end.

that is the reason i use a foam plug in the back, i don't like letting heavy ballast slugs pound away at the rear of the tube.

dh

[Gldrpilot]

Mike,

I'm still drooling over those shots of the Shadow! I have a couple of questions...I notice that the red tips are outlined by yellow. Is the model painted in the mold like that or did you add the yellow trim yourself?

what is the red tape/wrap at the base of the vertical fin? Is the fuse strong in that area? I have see so may cross-tail models break right in that area even with moderate landings.

How is the Shadow in the landing zone?? How does it handle at slow speeds for approach and hitting the target?

What about assembling the Shadow?? Does it come with servo/pushrod covers? What about all other necessary hardware? Are you able to run your rx antenna in the fuse without any range issues?

I went to the monthly RMSA (Denver club) contest yesterday and already there were at least 7 Pike Perfects...but not many had heard of the Shadow...that's why I am really leaning towards the Shadow...I guess I like to be a little different.

Chris Keller

[mlee8249]

Hi Chris,

Hmmm.... a bunch of questions, so here we go:

I notice that the red tips are outlined by yellow. Is the model painted in the mold like that or did you add the yellow trim yourself?

A: I added the yellow trim as a way to get some better contrast between them and a more pleasing effect. I used 1.5 mil vinyl tape (pin stripe tape) because it is very thin and won't disturb the airflow.

what is the red tape/wrap at the base of the vertical fin? Is the fuse strong in that area? I have see so may cross-tail models break right in that area even with moderate landings.

A: I looked really closely at that red stripe, and it seems to cover a mold seam where the tail is attached to the boom. The Sharon also has such a mold break. I find no problem with the strength of this area, having had a few guys get on my case at Visalia on a particularly "heavy" dork landing I did in practice. It was one of those nose in landings that got the attention of a a few people when they heard the "Thwack!" of impact. No damage at all. In fact, a similar landing with my Lazurite had caused some wrinkling of the leading edge of the outer panels due to the panel flexing forward and crushing the LE at the joiner. (Sems to be the weak spot on the Lazurite and Onyx series of planes, as they all use the same outer panels.)

How is the Shadow in the landing zone?? How does it handle at slow speeds for approach and hitting the target?

A: Shadow does very well at slowing down. What I will advise anyone on this will be that the CROW set-up needs to use only flaps and elevator comp for the initial set-up. This will make for a very slow approach and slow descent. If you want a faster sink rate during CROW, then add the UP aileron to the CROW mix. But, I like a floatie approach using the flaps to determine the speed of the approach and then just plop the bird on the target by sucking up the flaps at the right time. It will weathervane a bit with that tall rudder, but it also responds well to rudder input, allowing a very controlled crab to the spot. It is steady and fairly input free once she is headed to the spot. I did have to adjust my timing for this bird, as it approaches slower than my Lazurite, and so I was consistently late on landing until I adjusted the timing. Having at least 80 degrees of flap will give you some serious airbrakes, and if so, you need to watch for the sudden stop in mid-air. Simply ease off the flaps and she will start flying again. As for hitting the target....I got 4th at Visalia. You're not getting into the top 10 if you can't hit the target.

What about assembling the Shadow?? Does it come with servo/pushrod covers? What about all other necessary hardware? Are you able to run your rx antenna in the fuse without any range issues?

Assembly is fairly fast. Pushrods to the tail is done for you and you need only hook up the front end to the servos, plus install the ball link on the rudder. There are servo covers for the flaps and ailerons, but the blisters on top are too shallow for the servo arms I used on flaps. I made new ones on a Mattel Vacu-Form. Ailerons are not a problem. I have not worked with the rx antenna yet to see if I can run it inside. When we arrived Visalia, this plane had only been trim flighted. I will be doing rx testing this week to see if we can get the antenna inside. Other things: You need to buy a DB-9 connector for the wing wiring, the servo tray they provide may not fit the servos you use, and you may have to open up the wing servo opening a bit to allow the Greening Servo mounts to fit inside. It took me two long nights to put her together from start to finish, including balancing with about 4-oz of weight in the nose.

Hope that helps you out. I like the Perfect, but I think I have something that will beat the Perfect. If I remember correctly, I don't think a Perfect beat me at Visalia. Not that I'm dissing the Perfect...it is a great aircraft. And maybe I got damn lucky. But to take a bird that had less than 30 minutes of flight time on it before going into competition says a lot for the aircraft.

Mike Lee

[davidjensen]

"But to take a bird that had less than 30 minutes of flight time on it before going into competition says a lot for the aircraft."

It also says a lot about the pilot - Nice work.

[davidjensen]

Mike

I have a Q for you. I have been trying to get my rudder linkage setup at the rudder ball link. I am only able to get about 15mm of right rudder when the ball link contacts the rudder wiper. I can force the rudder to about 18mm. Left rudder has lots of room. What did you do and how much rudder throw does the Shadow have. Can you post a close up pic of the rudder link when the rudder is at full deflection.

Thanks

[Jim Frahm]

David,

Let me know when you test fly your plane. I own the Xperience Pro and really like it, I've been looking at the Shadow, but never hit the "buy Now" button. Look forward to see it in person.

Thanks,
Jim

[davidjensen]

Jim I hope to have the ship flying in 2 to 3 weeks. I'll let you know. Do you have the V-tail or the X-tail? If you have the X-tail can you take a pic of the rudder linkage.

[Gldrpilot]

Mike,
Thanks for the quick response! Do you know when your review will be published in Fly R/C? I will definitely be looking forward to it. Awesome job at Visalia!!! I agree with Dave...It also says a lot about the pilot!

[Jim Frahm]

I have the v-tail. I read your post earlier about your rudder binding, but I don't think you'll need more throw than that. I have an Escape X-tail with the same type of pushrod connection and the same amount of throw, it flys just fine.
Jim

Jim I hope to have the ship flying in 2 to 3 weeks. I'll let you know. Do you have the V-tail or the X-tail? If you have the X-tail can you take a pic of the rudder linkage.

[davidjensen]

So tell us more about the HN 354 airfoil.

[mlee8249]

Hi David,

The rudder ball link is terribly close to the rudder itself, and I know what you're talking about with the throw. So, I relieved the rudder wiper to allow more right rudder movement. I'll try and remember to shoot some photos of that tonight and post that up for you. But, I did manage to get about 30-degrees of rudder both directions by relieving the wiper. In flight, you may not not need 30-degrees of movement, but I also know that if you NEED RUDDER, like on a bad toss for launch, and prior to wiping out the guys next to you, I would rather have it available for that occasion instead of wishing I had it. And I appreciate the compliments on flying.

As for the date of the review, I cannot say for sure as this is decided by the Editor. But, if you wish, I can send you my text by email. Photos as well. Email is:

mlee8249@msn.com

Thanks!

Mike Lee

[davidjensen]

Removing some of the rudder wiper was my next choice. I agree you cannot have enough rudder in most planes (I want to try some stall turns and snap rolls with the new ship :D ). I'm having a hard time finding servo frames for the wing servo's. I ordered some from Esprit Models today (that fit the HS 85 which is the exact same size as the 368) for the aileron servos but cannot find frames for the 3421's I will use for the flaps yet. So far Craig from servoframes.com has not respond to e-mail requests. I called Bob B but he is out until Thurs. Tonight I build the servo tray for the fuse and the balast tube bulkhead.

[mlee8249]

Hi David,

As promised, shots of the rudder wiper where I trimmed it to make clearance for the pushrod. Just take your time and do it neatly, and nobody will ever know what you did. As for the servo frames, I have to wonder what happened to Craig. It may be he is on vacation in his Native country, Australia. He does go back about once a year. Using the 3421 on flaps is a great choice. The size of them flaps dictate a strong and reliable servo. Okay, photo for you.

Mike Lee

[davidjensen]

Thanks Mike Craig is back. He said he has been very busy and will send me the frames soon.

[mlee8249]

Hi Guys,

Somebody asked me about the antenna routing, inside or outside of the Shadow fuselage. I had said that I had to conduct some tests to find out, as I was only running the antenna outside for now. So, to whoever asked that question, I did do the testing last evening. You will definitely have to run the antenna outside the fuselage. I was testing a JR R790S PCM receiver with a JR 9303 Tx, and when the antenna is run inside, the best distance we got was about 70-ft. The average was only about 45-ft. When run on the outside, the distance tripled in all cases. Because this is such a drastic difference, I would say there is little chance that you would be safe to fly with the antenna inside in this model, and flying at normal thermal distances.

Thanks!
Mike Lee

[Gldrpilot]

Hi Guys,

Somebody asked me about the antenna routing, inside or outside of the Shadow fuselage. ... ...there is little chance that you would be safe to fly with the antenna inside in this model, and flying at normal thermal distances.

Thanks!
Mike Lee

Hey Mike,

That was me who asked. I usually try to run the antenna inside unless range issues prevent it. I seems that a lot of the new ships require some antenna routing gyrations to be sure you get good range.

Thanks AGAIN!!

Chris Keller

[mlee8249]

Hi Chris,

Okay, that helps, as I almost was thinking I had lost the gray matter again.

As for the newer planes and the antenna subject, I do understand that a significant carbon content in the material will block RF from getting to the antenna. What is strange is that the fabric used in the Shadow appears to have no more carbon in it than my Fazer has, and the Fazer has no problem running the antenna inside. Maybe I'm wrong about the carbon content???!?!?! All I know right now is that I won't risk running inside with the Shadow...not after it proved to cut the range down by 2/3rds!

Now, get this...I heard you're not supposed to run an antenna parallel along the top of an all carbon boom, either. Yet my Danny has exactly that, and no problems.

Maybe I've just been lucky so far?!?!?! (no, I'm not Irish.)(My wife is, but I'm not).

Mike Lee

[dhauch]

i've never had problems with carbon fuses, it's the carbon/kevlar weave fuses that causes the most problems.

dh

[davidjensen]

Some of the pilots here in the NW (using JR 790 receivers) are doubling the length of the antenna and running it down the fuse and exiting the tail throught a small hole. About 16" of the antenna is left to dangle out the back end. Not prety but it works.

[Wing-span]

Different manufacturer i know, but check out the Samba web site (the PIKE SUPERIOR makers). They have a good section on aerial installations that work.

Wing-span ;)

[glderguy]

A question on the Shadow for Mike Lee. First off, congrats on 4th place at Visalia. I read somewhere in this thread you stated you felt you had with the Shadow, a plane to beat the Perfect. Was wondering if you came to that conclusion by having time on the Perfect as well? I know you are an excellent pilot and was thinking perhaps your great performance at Visalia was maybe more you than the plane you flew. A similar case in point would be DP cleaning up on everybody for like three years running flying his Insanity.
The Insanity is just a sort of a simple, more low tech bagged wing plane.
Yet I think because of his excellent skills he was able to clean house w/it?
Thanks, Walter

[mlee8249]

Hi Walter,

I made that statement based on my experience watching, very very closely, the performance of the Perfect at both the Soaring Masters and at Visalia. I was going to buy one. In both cases, I was not satisfied with the penetration of the Perfect, even when ballasted. Case in point: At the Masters, two were airborne in the finals and one was ballasted with the other one clean. Both landed at about the same time and both short of the LZ, with the ballasted one about 50-yards further. Okay, coincidence. You had two of these fine ships in the top 10 of the Masters. On the other hand, where were they in Visalia when it really wasn't that windy? Both pilots are excellent, world class pilots who normally clean up on the field. I don't consider myself that good a pilot, but I do try to get everything I can from an aircraft. (Thanks for the compliment, BTW). I do think that I can recognize the finer qualities of a ship, given half the chance to wring it out, and in the case of the Shadow, this plane was put into the air for the first time only 4 days before Visalia. For me, this is far too early to consider flyng a ship in heavy competition, as my normal train of thought dictates having a few hours in the air to figure the plane out and get used to her. But this plane felt "right", and we immediate made the decision to fly her at Visalia despite my previous ride, the Lazurite, being in fine condition and with an extensive history of winning local contests. If you ask most of my club members about what I say about my flying and the planes, you'll find they will almost all tell you what I say: "It's the plane, not me!"

Do I feel I can beat the Perfect with Shadow?

Absolutely....I just did!

Just my opinion....your mileage may vary.

Mike Lee

[glderguy]

Thanks Mike. I was asking because I am/was really serious about getting a Perfect, but am not totally sold on it. Having owned a Superior, I know Pikes are well built and am certain they probably arent going to blow up on you on a launch, even in wind. The Shadow sounds good as well, I just worry about launching a plane hard and having it stay in one piece, hopefully it will prove to be robust over the test of time. Sounds to me like the Shadow probably has good legs as well. One of my major gripes about the Superior, having previously flown an Icon, is it just couldnt come home like the Icon would.
I was thinking the Perfect would be better in this dept. Anyway, think Ill keep a serious eye on the Shadow. Thanks for all your good input on the plane.
Walter

[Lowey]

I was thinking the Perfect would be better in this dept. Anyway, think Ill keep a serious eye on the Shadow. Thanks for all your good input on the plane.
Walter

Hi Walter,

The Perfect is a fantastic model, a clear step up from the Superior in just about every way. One of the things that has amazed me about the Perfect is its performance in windy conditions. Not only will it take a solid winch launch on mono line and F3B winches, but it will come home very well in any conditions even empty.
For me the transition to the Perfect was because I needed that extra hang time in calm air, and the Perfect offered all of the flying characteristics of the Superior with this added advantage. Whilst the Superior is a great all round model, it does not hang as well as the likes of the Icon and Sharon when they are set up right, and in the right pilots hands.
I maidened my Perfect on a windy aussie day, flew it empty and was very surprised at how well it travelled the sky, better then anything else I have seen.
Since that time, I can vouch for its ability to hang in nothing, handle big winds, and launch like the best of them.
The general concensus at the recent worlds was the that the Perfect was the stand out model, with the Supra's also performing very well. Many comments were made on the Shadow and Xperience wing flex on launch which was concerning. Whilst the Shadow performs very well once in the air, it does give up launch height to the Perfect (as does the Sharon) which is where it can be won and lost with all of the current F3J models being within 5% of each other.
As always though, it comes down to stick time and setup.

Cheers,
Matt

[glderguy]

Thanks for the info Matt. More fuel to the fire! Sounds like you really like your Perfect. I know they are strong, no doubt. At this point Im almost ready to just fly my bagged Insanity for a while/just step back and watch all the stuff out there for a bit. Perfects dont penetrate, Perfects do penetrate.
Shadows have noodle wings, Supras wings/stabs rip out of their mounts, oh no, now they dont- lots of things to consider here!
Walter

[mlee8249]

Hi Walter,

There is a lot of concern being passed around about wings flexing on launch. I'm not so sure that this should be of such concern. I have watched the AVA, Danny, and similar RES types go up an F3J launch, bending like mad and not blowing up. I watched the Sharon, my own Lazurite and Breeze models go up and I was really scared about the Lazurite, but they held up when other moldie's were blowing up right next to us.

What I'm saying is that it may not be such a bad thing for the wings to flex on launch, as it may be relieving excess stress on the wings and actually preventing the wing from breaking. Yes, the Shadow bends, but very similar to the Sharon Pro. We have flown the Sharon in very poor windy conditions with alarming amounts of wing bending and she comes back everytime! We will be doing the same with the Shadow very soon. We want to make sure it will handle the stress now, and not worry about it later on. If it's going to blow up, lets' blow it up now rather than at the big contest.

But in the overall scheme of life, there is nothing wrong with flying the Perfect. It is a very fine aircraft...very fine! You will not go wrong with it. I like the Shadow and Sharon right now, as they fit my style of flying. Lazurite was very good, but the few shortcomings it had have been answered by the new planes. Lazurite carried me to 6th place at the F3J Team Selection, and it led the 2004 and 2005 Visalia event until I hosed her with my crappie decisions....both times. These are tough events, and the plane that should have exploded did beautifully all through the events. I'd like to hear from other guys about wing flexing and see what they think about using this to possibly shed load.

Mike Lee

[glderguy]

Hi Mike. Id like to hear some comments on wing flex as well. I know the Supra wings are said to flex a bit on launch and that is normal. Maybe Dr Drela could give us some insight on this?
Walter

[dhauch]

lets say you have two planes that will handle any load throw at it on launch.
one has a real flexy wing and the other is stiff.

wouldn't the stiff one out launch it everytime ?

for all the sports i've ever been in, the stiffer your equiptment ment the more energy you got out of it.

dh

[markdrela]

Wings break because of structural defects, not because they flex too much.

A carbon spar with proper shear webs and no stress concentrations should be able to withstand a sparcap stress of 150 ksi with some margin to spare. A glider wing with this "safe" level of sparcap stress will have an absurd amount of flex, even with high-modulus carbon.

To stress the Supra's spar to this 150 ksi stress, it would have to be bent approximately into a semicircular U-shape, with the tips pointing straight up. If it was made from high-modulus carbon, it would flex only half as much, which is still way more than what most people call "alarming".

The bottom line is that for all current composite RC gliders, how much the wing flexes tells you very little about how close it is to failure. What really matters are the structural details --- in particular the shear webs, secondary bonds to the joiners, lack of stress risers, etc.

Then there's flutter. Here again, bending stiffness doesn't directly indicate flutter resistance. What matters is the stiffness/inertia ratio of the moving surfaces, mass distribution on the wing, and also the servo and linkage stiffnesses.

[markdrela]

lets say you have two planes that will handle any load throw at it on launch. one has a real flexy wing and the other is stiff.
wouldn't the stiff one out launch it everytime ?
Not necessarily. With the same materials, the stiffer wing will be heavier, and won't zoom as high as the flexy wing. And the lighter plane will sink slower, so if you're talking dead-air duration rather than launch height, the lighter flexy plane looks even better.

[roydor]

A stiffer model definately zooms higher, so does a heavier model. A heavier model has more inertia so drag affect is reduced, if you simplify it:
(D+mg)/m = D/m+g = deceleration (assuming 90 degree zoom)
If the mass is grater, deceleration is lower and the height is higher.
The only problem with a heavier model on the line is the abbility to pick up tension and speed, a heavier model needs stronger wind or tow to reach the same conditions for the zoom as a lighter model.
The ideal wing loading for an F3J model is in my opinion 30-32 grams/sq decimeter (9.8-10.5 ounce/sq foot). This gives a model strong enough for full tows in strong winds and low sink for light conditions. Too light a model and it doesn't keep good speed during a glide, the model becomes sensitive to changes in pitch and performance start to degrade rapidly becouse of changes in renolds no. an additional 1 gram/sq dm at 26 is a lot less significant than one at 35 because airfoil performance is more sensitive at lower reynolds, this means that a slightly heavier model will have a better L/D so sink is not affected by the weight ratio but rather a fraction of it.

[roydor]

I have been flying a Pike Perfect since march. I bought it for flying in light conditions in the F3J WC in Slovakia knowing my two Superiors were good enough for strong winds. Due to some delays I received it with little time to learn how to fly it well in all conditions and concentrated on light condition flying and noticed right away that it has better L/D than the Superior at mid to high Cl. Unfortunately It feels more dragy at faster speeds.
This means the model penetrates well but needs to be ballasted more correctly than my Superiors. Even so it can be flown at lower wing loadings in the same wind because of the Perfects better glide ratio. The Perfect definitely penetrates well but needs to be flown correctly using camber to reflex the wing, it feels as though it doesn't penetrate as well but always comes back with higher altitude than my Superior...a definite advantage that I used in order to get into the finals at the WC where I flew the Perfect on 8 out of 11 preliminary flights.

As for the Shadow, I haven't flown one but can say it glides very well (better than a Superior but less than a Sharon) and has a fair launch for its size (middle of the group at the most). It seems to be a good light conditions model but seems a bit flexy and I wouldn't fly it in strong winds, its too light and big, it will be thrown around and would be a poor choice in my opinion for such conditions. In this regard the Perfect seems to be a much more versatile plane.

My suggestion to you is to get a plane with a broad spectrum of performance, in various conditions. The Perfect is such a model for me and my style of flying. Don't get a "super model" for the type of conditions that are rarely there, that kind of model is not good as a primary and should be used as a third model only, that is why I never buy a "super light" model, I get along just fine with a regular one.
And if possible, take a test flight on a model before you get one, its hard and not always wise to pay so much money without knowing if the plane is right for you and your style of flying although its hard to go wrong with a Perfect.

[markdrela]

A stiffer model definately zooms higher, so does a heavier model.
D+mg)/m = D/m+g = deceleration (assuming 90 degree zoom)
If the mass is grater, deceleration is lower and the height is higher.
The only problem with a heavier model on the line is the abbility to pick up tension and speed, a heavier model needs stronger wind or tow to reach the same conditions for the zoom as a lighter model.
For a given towline pull, the line has a fixed amount of elastic energy. For the fixed line energy, a lighter model will have more speed at the start of the zoom. This is the crucial difference. Unless you go much lighter than what's actually flown, the larger zoom speed of a light glider more than overcomes its smaller ballistic coefficient.

My sims indicate that a typical 3.1m F3B glider without wind launches highest at about 1.1-1.3 kg (35-46 oz) total weight, depending on the assumed drag coefficient in the zoom. For a typical 3.4m F3J glider, it's about 1.2-1.4 kg. Actual gliders are of course heavier than these optimum weights. From what I hear from F3B fliers, the lighter the glider the higher it will launch, which matches these calculations.

[roydor]

My personal experience shows that its true only for very light to no wind conditions and when the wind picks up to about 5-7 knots (light enough not to use ballast) a 2 kg model launches better than a 1.7 kg model.
Besides, a 1.4 kg model is unrealistic in F3J if you want a model that will have a decent life span, the skin is soft and the model starts to disintegrate after a short period.

[regis]

What a great discussion! Thanks to all. Regis

[glderguy]

I wasnt there but was talking to some of the competitors at the USA
F3J team trials and from what I gathered, TK and his Supras were out
launching most of the stuff at the trials. Maybe I misunderstood but if I
didnt then perhaps the performance of the Supra/TK at the trials somewhat
supports Dr Drela/lighter/higher. Until I heard this I too always believed a stiff wing/heavy plane would out launch a lighter/more flexy plane. Im leaning towards saying I was wrong.
Walter

[markdrela]

I ran the numbers on my Supra, assuming it weighs a more typical 60 oz. Its tip deflection at the design 200 lb load is 20". I considered a double-stiffness spar, with a tip deflection of 10". This increases the span efficiency under tow from 0.88 to 0.95 . But it also requires adding 8 oz to the glider.
According to my launch sim, the effects on launch height are:

1) +0.5 meters from launch efficiency increase (0.88 to 0.95)
2) -4.6 meters from the increased weight (60 oz to 68 oz)

So the penalty from the larger weight more than offsets the gain from the lower wing flex.
The above numbers are not affected much by including a 10 mph headwind. The smaller-flex benefit is still +0.5m, and the height penalty from the larger weight is -4.0 meters. But the biggest difference is that the lighter glider will have roughly a 6.5% better still air duration, among other advantages in working lift and landing.

The bottom line here is that stiffening a wing by piling on more carbon does not improve performance in any meaningful way. Quite the opposite.

[mlee8249]

Geez, I guess I called for some opinions.....and we got it from some heavy hitters!

About the Supra and TK at the Team Selection...if memory serves me correctly, these were not Supras as produced on the production line. These were hand made models by Tom and friends. A lot of difference there. Did he launch pretty high? Yes he did. I beleive my Lazurite was next lightest of the bunch at just under 63 ounces, while TK was 60 and under. (I think). I didn't get the highest launches, but I was nowhere close to the low guy on the totem pole. And at 63 ounces, we were able to hang longer than almost anyone else...save for TK. Now, when the afternoon breeze picked up, sure, I switched to my Fazer for better effect. But again, the Lazurite with it's flexy wings and all, held up nicely for everything else; it launched nicely, and it did a good job. This seems to fall in line with what the Dr. Drela indicates. So, I say again, I don't think wing flex is a bad thing. I still believe it allows excess stress to be shed without placing the structure at risk. And thanks to those people who have contributed to this very interesting thread.

Mike Lee

[roydor]

Mark,
Have you ever given thought to the bending of the flying surfaces in a flexy wing?
Do they bend without twisting and warping or do they have deflections that change the preset of the flaps and ailerons?
Seems to me as though the fact that the flaps are bending while deflected forces them to bend at a bending line which is the same bending line as the wing. This means that they are forced either to straiten out and reduce camber or bend forward and increase the stress on the flap\aileron skin. The end reasult is probably some warping which might change the optimal launch preset. Also one would expect them to stress the servos more then a stiffer wing might.

There might be a Psychological aspect to wing flex: "my model flexes so much its probably going to break, better get of the line... oops, I'm at 3/4 of the altitude, the heavy ships out launched me again..."
My older models used to flex more and I can say that its really hard to push them to the max when they start to look like they don't appreciate the strong pull, it makes you want to get out of the line earlier. Today I push them much harder and when I see them flex I know the line is about to break...

[dhauch]

great informations guys.

okay lets take the difference in weights out of this, which does throw alot of variables into this, launch height verses hang time, ect...
(which i do understand, and plays a big role in all of this, and has to
be considered)

lets put the two planes at the same wing loading.

i was curious about the mechanics on launch height from a flexy wing compared to a stiffer wing, at the same wing loading.
Just how much it makes a difference ?

dh

[mlee8249]

I dunno.....

Paging Dr. Drela. Paging Dr. Mark Drela. Please pick up a white paging phone. Dr. Mark Drela.

On the other hand, a decent pilot is going to find lift, no matter what the winch height between the two. And don't ask me....I'm indecent! (oops)

Mike Lee

[davidjensen]

If the wings ant a flexin your not a pedelin. :D

[Kiesling]

Dave,

The first part of Mark's analysis answers what you are asking:

1) +0.5 meters from launch efficiency increase (0.88 to 0.95)

[dhauch]

Dave,

The first part of Mark's analysis answers what you are asking:

Oh naturally, that part i didn't understand. :)
that's okay though, i better leave this discusion to the brighter crayons
anyway. :)

thx,

dh