foreward facing wing

[b-29er]

has anyone ever seen or built an rc plane plane with a foreward facing wing and canards like the su-47? im looking to use them in a small homebuilt plane, since ffw's provide greater lift, and canards in the nose provide a lower takeoff spee, quite possibly a seaplane. has anyone built any plane with canards o a foreward facing wing??

[capncrunch]

yes, many! it's better known as a Forward Swept Wing. try searching the forums for "forward swept" and/or "FSW". You'll find everything from FSW flying wings to scale models to foamies.

-barrett

[avianaut]

This caught my attention. Many years ago I scratch built a control line model with forward swept wings and full flying canards in a 'V' config, powered by a Cox .049 pusher. Forward flight was a series of loops untill ground contact. It actually flew a little better backwards! Hehe.

Seriously though, forward sweep works when done right. Just be sure to build a stiff, rigid wing. There is a tendancy for the tips to wash IN (increased A of A) when flexed upward, this can lead to flutter, or failure.

Cheers.

[willin]

The Blu Funder has several examples of FSW You will find that thread in the foamies under electric aircraft.

Robert

[Troy]

I'm not so sure a forward swept wing equates "more lift." It has maneuvering advantages and stall advantages over a standard wing plan form. As someone else mentioned, there are also torsional loads not usually seen on standard straight wings which require careful engineering to keep from washing in the tips. I'm even less excited about canards knowing some of their idiosyncracies but that is just me. They look great!
http://www.gundersonaerodesign.com/products/sailplanes/s1/
http://www.gundersonaerodesign.com/productgallery/s1/DSC_0003.JPG

[b-29er]

thx. anyways, the reason im lookin at fsw's is because im trying to build a slow flying fsw seaplane, 44 inch wingspan, 33 inch length, 3 ducted fan, and i've heard fsw's are more aerodynamic and lift more than other wings. i was thinking about an all foam wing, but if there is fluttering in weak wings, i may need to put a tip on the wing. is this idea possible? if so, waht can i put in the tip of the wing to prevent fluttering, im looking for a strong, light material that's not very flexible that i can put in or over the wing tip. if not, what do i need to mod to make it work?

[capncrunch]

im trying to build a slow flying ... 3 ducted fan ... and i've heard fsw's are more aerodynamic and lift more than other wings.

I tend to try not to rain on parades when we get the "im going to build x-and-such crazy plane" because the posters usually can't spell or talk well enough to convince me that they have any chance of actually following through with anything more than daydreaming about the project. usually around post #10, we discover we are talking to a 12 year old. You on the other hand don't seem too crazy, so I thought I would take the opportunity to rant.

set yourself up for success. you want to build something original? scratch build a conventional plane. then do another, and change one thing. but don't try to do all the cool looking stuff at once. someone here said last week that "cool looking" and "efficient" are inversely proportional.

There are many who will be angry with me for attempting to suppress your unlimited creativity and energy. "what's wrong with the kids doing what they want?" they holler in unison. Well, for starters, the time and effort spent building such a two-headed cat could be dashed into smithereens so quickly as to turn the young lads (and lasses?) away from further attempts.

What are your REAL goals (requirements)? slow flying? seaplane? 3 ducted fans? foam wing? some of these things do not play well with the others.

-barrett

[Mister UHU]

What are your REAL goals (requirements)?

slow flying? seaplane? 3 ducted fans? foam wing?

some of these things do not play well with the others.

-barrett

I agree this sound like a difficult mix to get to work.

[b-29er]

im really looking for a seaplane with a low takeoff speed that uses canards and can take some wind.. i can downsize, use a rsw, a prop, 1 jet. it's only a design right now, nothing more.

[Troy]

You said homebuilt and I was thinking homebuilt as in a man carrying experimental aircraft. :p

If it's a model then go nuts. If you want low speed, a "jet" or ducted fan doesn't work efficiently at lower speeds and may have issues creating the low end grunt to escape the grip and drag of water. Building light and keeping the wing loading low is the key. Do you have a design or inspiration from one?

[capncrunch]

in any case:

Because the canard reduces the lift of the main wing, it reduces the lift-induced drag of the wing, lowering the overall drag of the aircraft. ...In order to achieve longitudinal stability, most canard designs feature a small canard surface operating at a high lift coefficient (CL), while the main wing, although much larger, operates at a much smaller CL and never achieves its full lift potential. Because the maximum lift potential of the wing is typically unavailable, and flaps are absent or difficult to use, takeoff and landing distances and speeds are often higher than for similar conventional aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canards

the first part (reduces overall drag) is why you see them on experimentals like Rutan's Long-EZ: reducing overall drag means an increase in operating range for a given size of aircraft. but the reduction in drag comes at a cost of reduction in lift, which is what you need for slow flying and short takeoffs.

-barrett

[Mister UHU]

im really looking for a seaplane with a low takeoff speed
that uses canards and can take some wind..
i can downsize, use a rsw, a prop, 1 jet.

it's only a design right now, nothing more.



If you are brave, you could post some drawings here.

But I don't know if every comment will be constructive,
there are a few argumentative souls on RC Groups,
and plenty that think they know much more than they really do.

As a model you can do lot of wild things that would be impossible on fullsize,
but if you try, then be prepared to spend a lot of time, a bit of money,
and a lot of frustration on getting it to work well.

For the basic design and layout, you can do some very simple experiments
with "quick and dirty" glider mock ups.
These don't even need to be radio controlled, just hand launched free flight.
(there are some free flight and hand launch forums on RCG)

Once you have spent a few hours getting a basic canard glider to fly,
then you can improve the design of your seaplane.

Good luck !

[Troy]

i was thinking about an all foam wing, but if there is fluttering in weak wings, i may need to put a tip on the wing. is this idea possible? if so, what can i put in the tip of the wing to prevent fluttering, im looking for a strong, light material that's not very flexible that i can put in or over the wing tip. if not, what do i need to mod to make it work?
It depends on how much forward sweep you put into it. If you are going to have a modest top speed (50-70mph) then you can just build the wing using standard techniques. Here's a fairly high performance pusher that's epp foam:
http://www.edgerc.com/bop.htm
If you go extreme like the X-29 or SU-37 but keep the aspect ratio within reason, you can still build with standard materials (nothing too exotic). Foam with strapping tape or good quality covering is suprisingly stiff.