12-gram BL Outrunner for F3P!

[3d_Crazy]

We (MicroDAN) have been working on a brushless outrunner for F3P (and other applications). Our goal was to keep it under 12-grams. Our first prototypes were just a tad over 12 grams, but we are certain the production versions will be under 12 grams.

The custom curved magnets have finally arrived and we should have some of the first production motors in testing very soon. If everything looks good from the testing, MicroDAN should have these in full production by the end of the month!

I'll update with Power Specs, Pictures, and Pricing in the next week or two.

-Tim
E-Foamies.com
Official Distributor of MicroDAN Motors

[Malves]

Good news, bro. I just hope it will run on 3s.:)

[birdie_in_texas]

why would you want it to run on 3S.? if the KV is high, 2S would be better to keep it light..! which is the point to all this..

[3d_Crazy]

Good news, bro. I just hope it will run on 3s.:)

Anything will run on 3S :) It's just how long until the magic smoke comes out! :D

Seriously though. We probably won't recommend 3S for this motor because if you use the wrong battery you could do damage. BUT.... I did test my prototype on 3S with the 6x3 HD prop and it worked great. This is because the small 340 cells were limiting the amp draw. With different packs that won't limit the amp draw you could possibly damage the motor. That's why we will only recommend the use of 2-cells with the 6x3 HD and 7x3.5 HD props. With these props and 2-cells, this motor rocks! :cool:

Tim
e-foamies.com

[fwilly]

SWEET!!

will there be kits?

[3d_Crazy]

Probably not. :( We are headed down the no more kits route. The MicroDAN motors have such high tolorances that some people have trouble assembling the kits without the right tools. It's just easier to sell complete motors. But we'll see! You never know...

-Tim

[fwilly]

Bet I could get a kit down to 11g :p

[3d_Crazy]

heh... you might be suprised to see everything we did to get it down to 12 grams. This motor isn't like most of the other motors out there.... it might not even have any aluminum or steel in it (well except for the flux ring)! :D

Tim

[Malves]

I was asking about the 3s, because the only 2s pack I have never gave me the performance I needed. I got it used, so it probably is a bad pack and I have the wrong impression.

[Bryan Davison]

Malves,

These motors are designed for F3Ai type planes. Planes that are under 130g. Running these planes on 3cell isnt going to work. Too much weight.

If built at these low weights, a 2 cell will have plenty of power for any kind of indoor F3A type maneuver.

Im glad to see manufacturers making motors for 2 cells...and finally putting the "I need a 3cell" myth to rest.

A 6oz shockflyer will hover on a Axi 2204/54 and a 2cell lipo...what more do you need. Lower the weight down to 4oz, and a 2cell will provide unlimited vertical.

Tim, what is the expected thrust from this motor on a 2cell? 150g?

[fwilly]

Actually, 3 cells could be done just as light. An Atomic 220 3 cell would be a good match for an Etec 300 2 cell. The 3s 220s pulling 4 amps would have as much power as the 2s 300 pulling 6 amps and they weigh about the same. The motor would have to be wound to pull the right current on the given voltage.

Personally, I like 2s, but it can be done either way.

[Malves]

What about flight time wise? This was my biggest disapointment with a 2s pack doing full out 3D. But I am up to try it again with a brand new pack in the future.

[matchlessaero]

Malves, I used to be an 'anti 2s' person, but Fwilly convinced me otherwise. What I realized was that I'd never seen a properly set up 2s powersystem.

However, this motor is for indoor pattern, not for all out 3D.....

[Malves]

However, this motor is for indoor pattern, not for all out 3D.....

Yes, I guess you're right, bro. What are those guys using for the AM presentations?
Sorry for the questions, bro. But I've been in the hobby not long enough, I guess.

[matchlessaero]

Malves, I have been using the Axi 2204-54 for the past 2 years in AM's. A large number of competitors on both sides of the pond are as well.

[Malves]

Oh ok, so I guess I'll just keep my Park 300, then.:) It's been a great lil motor on 3s with a 7x4SF (65w) for my 145g Yak. Thanx for the help, bro.;)

[Bryan Davison]

Yeah, Ive used the Axi 2204/54 as well as many of the local guys on a 2cell for over a year now on anything from F3Ai designs to shockflyers. Never had any need to use a 3cell. All the planes had enough power to do any 3D I wanted to do, even outdoors.

Two cells for the most part tend to be lighter, and the packs are cheaper. Thats the biggest advantage in my opinion.

Now I agree, for the larger or more heavy planes like 7oz and above...3cells is needed, but then again...these motors were not designed for those planes.

If you havent tried a lightweight 2cell design...you should. You'll be amazed at how well it really does work.

[Dell C.]

I would like to see the specs, pictures, and pricing. :cool:

[3d_Crazy]

;) Gota build up the hype! :D Pictures, specs, and pricing soon to come!

Tim

[racerxky]

Sweet. Now we cant really say the Europeans have the advantage on light motors. Dr Kiwi shows some impressive numbers for the other Micro Dan motors.

[Aio_1]

Whether you run on 2s or 3s is generally pretty irrelevent in itself. It's only when you have the motor specs available that it will become clear which is preferable.
For large planes you may need 3s or 4s to avoid massive currents to get the same power. For very small planes 2s gives you more choice of cells and the ability to minimise the cell weight. 2s seems best for F3P since 3x300mAh cells is a little overweight and 2s 300mAh cells can provide sufficient power. Power is equal to voltage multiplied by current so to get the same exact same power to the motor from 2s you just need to draw 1.5 times the current (assuming the voltage per cell is the same). That'll mean a lighter plane but perhaps shorter flights on 2s if you're comparing the same cells but if you really want the duration you can go to a higher cell capacity and lose the weight savings - say have 450mAh 2s instead of 300mAh 2s. Totally energy available is the same and the weight will typically be about the same. So there's no real disadvantage to 2s at this size but it gives you more choice in cells since 300mAh tends to be as small as most distributers go.

If you need 35W and a 2s 300mAh pack will supply it then a 3s 300mAh pack is excessive weight. If you can find suitable 3s 200mAh cells and a matching motor then maybe that's just as good.

I'm using 3s but for competitive F3P I don't think it's ideal.

Aidan

[Trisquire]

The pilots from the Netherlands are using 3 cells with the $140 Strecker motor. Other than that, it's all 2s.

Tom

[Malves]

Yes, I've checked table this morning. Interesting to see that their planes are among the lightest ones in that list.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Looks good! I'm glad this motor is coming out. I only have one MicroRex for F3P, and it is kinda a pain to get them here into the states if I need more.

[Bert v/d Vecht]

The pilots from the Netherlands are using 3 cells with the $140 Strecker motor. Other than that, it's all 2s.

Tom

The 11 gram Strecker motor (195 03) comes in two winds. The 96 wind is for 3s packs and the 74 wind is for 2s packs. Performance is similar, as is the system weight since the 2s batteries need to be capable of a higher current draw than the 3s batteries.

[Trisquire]

Thanks Bert.

Regards,
Tom

[Malves]

The 11 gram Strecker motor (195 03) comes in two winds. The 96 wind is for 3s packs and the 74 wind is for 2s packs. Performance is similar, as is the system weight since the 2s batteries need to be capable of a higher current draw than the 3s batteries.

Maybe MicroDan could offer something similar. ;) I'd be all over it, and I bet others would, too. :cool:

[3d_Crazy]

We will look into it. I thought at this level most would use 2-cell to save weight.

[Malves]

We will look into it. I thought at this level most would use 2-cell to save weight.

I also like to save weight on my planes. But I am not a contest pilot, I just like to fool around. So there's a point where saving weight is irrelevant to me.
I fly with a Park 300 that weighs 24g, but if I could get a 12g motor than I can use with the TP480 3s packs that I already have, I'd be very happy. :)

I believe offering 2 different winds, may expand the target market for you. :)

[Denile]

Is there an update on the 12g motor. I would like one or two and im sure hoping it's more affordable than the really good Uttam motors, ( cost is the only reason for not buying one yet ). Please don't take this as a bash on Uttams motors they are simply out of my price range.

[3d_Crazy]

Not much to tell yet. First pre-production motors are being built. Once I have one and have done some testing, I'll give all the details!

How much do the uttams motors sell for? We are trying to make the 12-gram motor affordable, but there is a lot of cost involved with the custom curved magnets, and other materials not yet disclosed! ;)

Tim

[fwilly]

IIRC the Mighty Midgets range from $75-90. The biggest weighs 8g.

[3d_Crazy]

I got word from MicroDAN. He ran a test from the first pre-production motor!

On 2 cell - 7.5oz thrust, 5.6A, 7.5V, GWS 7x3.5 HD Prop

More information and pictures to come!

Tim
http://e-foamies.com

[Aio_1]

IOn 2 cell - 7.5oz thrust, 5.6A, 7.5V, GWS 7x3.5 HD Prop
7.5V isn't realistic for a 2 cell pack of appropriate capacity.
As this is specifically a lightweight motor most people will probably use 300mAh, 400mAh or 480mAh packs. Most of these will only deliver between 6V and 6.5V at that current.
If that data is an actual test measurement from a 2 cell pack then I expect the readings must have been taken immediately after throttling up on a fully charged pack or else an unrealistically large pack was used which would show only small voltage drop at 5.6A.

I would usually like to see data for around 6.6V and 10V for 2s and 3s respectively. Anything more seems a little optimistic.

Aidan

[Erik Johansson]

I agree. Measure at 6.5V or so and also try a slightly hotter wing for around 6.5A or so at that voltage. :)

/Erik

[Micro Dan]

7.5V isn't realistic for a 2 cell pack of appropriate capacity.
As this is specifically a lightweight motor most people will probably use 300mAh, 400mAh or 480mAh packs. Most of these will only deliver between 6V and 6.5V at that current.
If that data is an actual test measurement from a 2 cell pack then I expect the readings must have been taken immediately after throttling up on a fully charged pack or else an unrealistically large pack was used which would show only small voltage drop at 5.6A.

I would usually like to see data for around 6.6V and 10V for 2s and 3s respectively. Anything more seems a little optimistic.

Aidan
it was an xpower 620 and those are rather rough numbers.
im sure we will get some realistic numbers as soon.
i still gotta work this day job and its eating up my motor build time :)
Dan

[3d_Crazy]

Darn day jobs! :D

[3Don]

Tim how much will cost these engines?

[3d_Crazy]

Yet to be determined. We are calcuating labor and material costs.

As soon as I know for sure, I'll make a post.

Tim

[Killi]

it's almost like the microrex 3200 motor.

[Shahid B]

I run 2 cell and its fantastic, won't go back to 3 cell now

[mike3976]

Tim, lets put the suspence to rest and provide us with a full blown preview of this little gem via pictures and full specs. Thankyou.

[Malves]

Tim, lets put the suspence to rest and provide us with a full blown preview of this little gem via pictures and full specs. Thankyou.


Don't forget the price!:D

[3d_Crazy]

Tim, lets put the suspence to rest and provide us with a full blown preview of this little gem via pictures and full specs. Thankyou.

I'm not holding out! :D I just received the first two pre-production motors so I should able to release more information very soon now. :) We are still trying to decide which material will be best to use. Once we get this nailed down, we will have the pricing available.

Keep an eye on this thread, more information to come!

Tim
http://e-foamies.com

[3d_Crazy]

Here is a little teaser picture :p

http://e-foamies.com/store/catalog/images/promotion/MD2003F3P_12g_01.jpg

I'll be doing the testing tomorrow night, so I'll post the specs and data soon after.

Tim
http://e-foamies.com

[mike3976]

2003-F3P
I take it that these are 20 mm diameter stators, 3 mm thick, 9 arm ?
For some reason, I thought they would use the 12 arm 25's

BUT they do look nice! Get 'em done!!

[3d_Crazy]

Yep. For light, small motors, a smaller diameter stator is needed. You gain a lot of weight in the flux ring, magnets, and bell, when using a larger stator such as a 25mm.

These MicroDAN® 2003-F3P 12g pre-production motors sport the new custom MicroDAN® Carbon Fiber Ultra-Lite Shafts. Using high-tech machinery, MicroDAN is able to produce these Carbon Fiber shafts to exact specs, holding tight tolerances. These shafts fit precisely in the bell and inside the bearings to create a no slop fit. As good as steel, but lighter! :D

More information to come...

Tim
http://e-foamies.com

[Micro Dan]

that is so cool, i love it!
we are trendsetters:)

[Aio_1]

2003??? they're 3 years out of date!

[3d_Crazy]

2003??? they're 3 years out of date!

LOL. I guess our 2505 and 2510 are well into the future! :D

[Malves]

LOL. I guess our 2505 and 2510 are well into the future! :D

LOL. Very nice job, guys. Motor looks smoking! errr...can't use that word for motors, can I? :o

[racerxky]

LOL. Very nice job, guys. Motor looks smoking! errr...can't use that word for motors, can I? :o


No00os, Don't let the magic smoke out, thats what keeps it running, and light ;)

[Malves]

I'll be doing the testing tomorrow night, so I'll post the specs and data soon after.

Tim
http://e-foamies.com

Where?:D

[NanoDave]

Wow!

Those motors look great! Just what I have been waiting for!
Will there be any hot winds set up for SPEED?

Any information on when these will be available? and what is the expected price?

Sorry if you already posted that information, I briefly looked through this thread and I don't think I saw anything...

Dave

[Bryan Davison]

There was a thread a while back someplace where we were talking about ways to make motors lighter. Carbon fiber was the strongest suggestion. Carbon fiber shafts, bells, and mounts. Looks like someone took the hint. Nice job. Looks like a winner. If it will put out 7.5oz of thrust, thats one spectacular little motor.

Question is...will the carbon shafts hold up to the abuse us foamy flyers can dish out. Me personally, Im willing to use a more fragile motor, if it means better performance.

[Micro Dan]

There was a thread a while back someplace where we were talking about ways to make motors lighter. Carbon fiber was the strongest suggestion. Carbon fiber shafts, bells, and mounts. Looks like someone took the hint. Nice job. Looks like a winner. If it will put out 7.5oz of thrust, thats one spectacular little motor.

Question is...will the carbon shafts hold up to the abuse us foamy flyers can dish out. Me personally, Im willing to use a more fragile motor, if it means better performance.

so far i have found the carbon shaft to be just as durable as steel but it will fracture if enough load is applied.
in comparison the same load applied to the steel shaft will cause it to bend.
Dan

[3d_Crazy]

On a plane that has an AUW of 4oz, I doubt you will be able to break the CF shaft! :) Just not enough mass... but I'm sure there are some that will try to prove me wrong! :D

I didn't get the 2003-F3P motor tested yet :( Been busy boxing up and shipping out orders. I should be able to get it on the stand tonight. I'll post a graph of the actual test data.

Tim

[3d_Crazy]

Ok. Here is some test data. I used my BNB data analizer to record the amps, volts, and watts. I used my trusty Tach to record the RPM. And I have a MicroDAN Thrust stand with brand new scale. I should take a picture of this thrust stand... it sure is a piece of art! ;)

Motor: MicroDAN 2003-F3P
Weight: 12g

Battery: Dualsky Xpower 630 2-cell
Prop: GWS 7x3.5 HD

Thrust: 8.1oz
RPM: 10,600
Amps: 5.88
Volts: 7.65
Watts: 45

Whatcha think? :)

Tim
e-foamies.com

Edit: I know this battery is a little bigger than what will most likely be used. But it shows how good these Xpower batteries are! :) I have some new 300-400 packs from 2dogrc that are 20c! I'll test with these packs as soon as I put a connector on them.

[matchlessaero]

Try it again with, but with the 300 pack you mentioned and get the voltage down to about 6.8v........... ;)

[Denile]

WOW!!! Just what the Dr. ordered. This motor will be great for any small RC creation, from indoor to backyard. Awsome Job.

[FRAMEDNLVS]

gone fishing

[3d_Crazy]

OK. I re-ran the tests with my new PolyQuest 2-cell 300mah "twenty" pack.

Motor: MicroDAN 2003-F3P
Weight: 12g

Battery: PolyQuest "twenty" 300 2-cell
Prop: GWS 7x3.5 HD

Thrust: 7.4oz
RPM: 10,200
Amps: 6.17
Volts: 7.25
Watts: 44.7

Tim

[3d_Crazy]

Motor sounds great.

Me thinks I have a bunch of 3s340's sitting there. Could you prop it down and give us some numbers for the 3s? I would like to see what it would do around 5 amps or so.

Chris

For 3S, you would probably need to run a 4x4 prop or so! Might be good for speed, but not so sure about 3D/F3P.

Tim

[FRAMEDNLVS]

gone fishing

[Mister UHU]

7.4 oz is about 207 grams (2 cell)

8.1 oz is about 227 grams (3 cell)


Very good, but I think Mighty Midget can peak a higher thrust / weight ratio ?

[3d_Crazy]

Both tests were on 2-cells.

[3d_Crazy]

Then you will do it (3x2 up to 4x4)? I could send you some props. Or you could send me the motor for beta testing. I think it might make a real nice motor for small wings, pusher jets or those cox micro warbirds.

Chris

Sure. The only 4x4 prop I have is a GWS one so I ran it up. There was some flex and vibrations (its a very old prop). It was around 18,000 RPM on 3S 620s and around 5-6 amps. I'll test again after I get better props.

Tim

[FRAMEDNLVS]

gone fishing

[Micro Dan]

with a GWS 7x3.5 i get 10000RPM, 5.8A, 6.8V.
i have the following GWS props:
4x2.5, 4.5x3, 4.5x4.
i will give em all a spin and see what happens.
Dan

[peterp1964]

OK. I re-ran the tests with my new PolyQuest 2-cell 300mah "twenty" pack.

Motor: MicroDAN 2003-F3P
Weight: 12g

Battery: PolyQuest "twenty" 300 2-cell
Prop: GWS 7x3.5 HD

Thrust: 7.4oz
RPM: 10,200
Amps: 6.17
Volts: 7.25
Watts: 44.7

Tim

isn't this above this battery's C rating ? what do you get at half and
three-quarters throttle ?

Thanks,
Peter

[Micro Dan]

4.5x3, 13000rpm, 3.1A, 6.95V, 3.5oz.
4.5x4 12530rpm, 3.5A, 6.95V, 4oz.
4x2.5 13650rpm, 2.3A, 6.95V, 2.6oz.
4x2.5 20000rpm, 4.1A, 10.8V, 5.4oz.
im using an adjustable power supply so i can just dial up volts from 0 to 15.
Dan

[FRAMEDNLVS]

gone fishing

[Mister UHU]

7.4 oz is about 207 grams (2 cell)

8.1 oz is about 227 grams (3 cell)--SHOULD READ 2 CELLS=my error


Very good, but I think Mighty Midget can peak a higher thrust / weight ratio ?

UHU

[Aio_1]

isn't this above this battery's C rating ? what do you get at half and
three-quarters throttle ?

Thanks,
Peter
I think these cells are rated 20C continuous and 30C peak which means in theory they should manage 9A for brief bursts - don't know that I'd push them that hard but there you go.

[Micro Dan]

Thanks, very fast responce.

How warm is the motor on the last test (44watts)? I'm wondering just how much more it will take without dropping efficiency.

Chris
After three minutes at 44W the coil temp is 50c and the mag temp is 29c.
Dan

[Micro Dan]

changed timing to 20degree and she picks up 500 more rpm (20500)
with the 4x2.5 prop, coil temp still 50c max.
Dan

[luger007]

Looks like there is a ton of interest in these awesome little motors, when will they be available and are they going to be on par price wise with the other MicroDan motors?

[peterp1964]

I think these cells are rated 20C continuous and 30C peak which means in theory they should manage 9A for brief bursts - don't know that I'd push them that hard but there you go.

all my batts are 20C PQ's 300 and 400 mAh 2/3S's and they get too warm
for comfort at 20C regardless of what the sticker says. Also, at 20C they
sag about 1.5 volts. But weight-wise they're unbeatable.

However, my main interest was in the partial throttle performance of
this motor on the 7035.

Peter

[mike3976]

Looks like there is a ton of interest in these awesome little motors, when will they be available and are they going to be on par price wise with the other MicroDan motors?

Checked in my LHS the other day and , low and behold, there sat two cyclon motors, the single and double, 65 & 69 bucks respectivly!

I left them sitting there, prefering to wait for the MicroDan

French Motors :censored:

[Aio_1]

...French Motors :censored:
Complain about exchange rates and wait for something cheaper if you like but there's no need to start putting in comments like this! If Europeans or Asians started making comments like "American motors :censored:" I have a funny feeling it would get nasty, don't you. Let's keep it civil.

[mike3976]

Sorry, but political motivations got the best of me ;)

[rapghsi]

Micro Dan, can you give us a clue when we will be able to buy those motors?
and can you please tell us how can we mount this motor?
is it a tube mount?
thanks!

[Micro Dan]

i hope to have a limited number available very soon.
the motor will sport an 8MM bearing tube.
Dan

[rapghsi]

what you mean support an 8MM tube?
is that mean i will have an option to buy the microdan with 8MM tube? or i will need to install the tube myself?
and how much it should cost?
is international shipment will be available?
thanks!

[Malves]

It will sport, not support, a 8mm bearing tube. Basicaly, it comes with the tube.;)

[3d_Crazy]

It comes with an 8mm bearing tube. We leave the mounting options up to you. A MicroDAN 8mm motor mount will work, or some of other the 8mm tube mounts will work too. There are also some light weight ways to mount it to shockies using carbon fiber and kevlar string. This is what I figure most will do because it eliminates the need for a wood firewall (extra weight) as well as any type of motor mount (extra weight). Maybe Fuelly can post some pictures, as this is where I got the idea! :D Or I can take some pictures, as I put the prototype on my F3P plane using this method.

Tim

[rapghsi]

so one of my options is jest glue the bearing mount as it is directly to the plane right?
thats sounds excellent if it will work good, almost none add of weight.

[rapghsi]

i have a motor mount for 8 mm bearing tubes but it weight almost 2 gr (!!!) thats alot.
thats why i search another way to mount the motor.

[3d_Crazy]

Exactly.

[fwilly]

here's some pics of my motor mount. It slides over a shock fuse diagonally. With a 3mm shock fuse, it works best with a 7mm bearing tube, but you can grind some flat spots on an 8mm tube. It can be attatched to the plane with strips of tape running the length of the flat rod. This is really helpful when you want to experiment with different motor winds.

[Micro Dan]

sorry for the confusion guys but it looks like we are all on same page now.
just got back from anodizer, it was not a good trip as they messed up the job.
i think i need to plan on doing my own anodizing in the long run.
Dan

[chichisport]

Caustic soda and back again or just forget it . Plain alu is so pretty....

About the mounts , I like to use a longer tube , the bearings(7x3) are well inside the tube ( 8x7 ) and are retained by a separator tube( 6x7) glued to the main tube or fixed by a small wood screw and loctite .
Then the mount is 3mm cf tube with small pieces of cf tube up to the 7 mm of the inner side of the mount an screw with nut will cross the fuse and motor mounts for easy dettaching .The rod and kevlar idea is lighter . With that you can make both by only cutting the extra lenght of motor mount for the rod/thread mount.

Tell me if you want photos .

Cheers.

[Dylwad]

When will i be able to buy one?

[3d_Crazy]

I'll see if I can get an update from Dan.

Tim
http://e-foamies.com

[Micro Dan]

got a few pre production alum bell models on the way to Tim in the morning.
Dan

[Matthew Cotten]

PAYPAL READY!!! PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHERE TO PAY, I REALLY WANT/NEED ONE!!!

Or is there a HUGE line and I am at the back of it. :(

[3d_Crazy]

No line. Once they are in my hand I will open the order button on the website! :D

Tim

[Micro Dan]

maybe we should auction the darn things:) they are such a pain to wind.
such a boring job that winding biz.
all my kids want to do is run the turret lathe, they get bored with the assembly work.
Dan

[3d_Crazy]

Suprised you ain't built an automated winding jig yet! :p

[Micro Dan]

iv been studying on that for some time i just cant get the Queen to fund the project.
im pretty sure i could write the code to get the mill to do it but its a big wast of resources.
i will need four axis control to fully automate it but you could get buy with three if you indexed the teeth manually.
Dan