FS One !!!!!!! Is it really better than Realflight G3 ?????

[Max Stanford]

I have been reading about FS One from Horizon Hobbies and they claim that the aerodynamics are much more realistic than the ones in RealFlight G-3. Is this true ? They both have great graphics, but I dont buy a RC simulator for the neat pictures, I buy an RC Simulator to help me fly better when I am at the field ! The simulator that imitates the way my plane flys in real life ( some wind, realistic turbulance effects, and non perfect airplanes that do not fly perfectly as it should ). Do the flight physics in FSOne really live up to their claims of being much better than any other sim currently out there ? The prices are about the same, so I want to buy the sim that will be as difficult to fly and act like a real RC Plane so its the same as when I go to the field. You may see this at:

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=HANS2000

[GBR2]

Not sure if anyone really knows as it isn't available yet.

[Tweener]

Not sure if anyone really knows as it isn't available yet.Didn't make the Toledo show myself this year, but talk at the field from those who did attend is that they were "very impressed" with the demo there.

[MSelig]

How good is it? Well, for starters I worked out the aerodynamics for
the airplanes in the sim so I obviously have my opinion.

But to keep my opinion out of the picture, we've recently posted some
new videos to the fsone.com website. All videos are actual footage
from FS One. The first two videos include some 3D Funtana90 moves and
these can be compared to Kyle Woyshnis real Funtana90 here:

http://kyle.macapple.com/Videos/KyleFuntana2_Music.wmv
(slow download)

To highlight the aerodynamics, we've included a lot of aerobatics in
the videos. Aerobatics poses the greatest challenge to modeling vs
flying straight and level where all sims will look alike. 3D flying
is the toughest thing of all. To model the 3D aero correctly means
having to take into account what happens when the flow comes at the
airplane from any direction at any speed. That's not so easy ... but
I've been thinking about aerodynamics about since ... ~1977 which is
when I started flying RC.

Michael

[steelgtr]

Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Max Stanford]

Thanks for the info on FS1 MSelig, and even more thanks for all the airfoils you have given us :p Great graphics and eye candy are great, but the physics and the way the aircraft fly are what is really important. I am sure you did a great job with it, I bet that Realflight G3 will become a mere toy when compared to your simulator. I trust you rememebered to model imperfect air with wind etc that makes the model go all over the place just like in real life ;) .

I hope they included good multiplayer support, that is very important in having fun with any sim.

I will be one of the first in line for that sim when Horizon starts selling them.

Max

[RickDelten]

Does this sim have online multiplayer?

[mswlogo]

I'm not a 3D Flyer or have much interest.

But that Video was really impressive. Wow.

Ok, ok, you have FS1 on my watch list, you happy.

I'll wait until it's released though and see what the buzz is.

P.S. It must have good multiplayer.
P.P.S. You've even peaked my interest in 3D (don't tell my wife)
P.P.P.S. Got anything else besides 3D, getting tired of just 3D demos.

[mswlogo]

Does this sim have online multiplayer?

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=HANS2000

After looking closely at the feature list it doesn't seem to.
Anything to do with multiplay is for recorded playback or buddybox setup.

It's funny though, G3 doesn't list Multiplay as a major feature here.

http://www.realflight.com/products/g3_main.html

[RickDelten]

Well then IMO its a step backwards from previous sims.

[[ o ] cap]

If a sim comes out with more realistic physics than the previous sims then it not having multiplayer is not going to make it a step backward, that's rediculous. Most people still buy a sim to learn how to fly (which is the point of a sim) not play "games" with their buddies online. If it is "better "in the physics department, then come on with it FS 0ne. All it will do is drive all the sims to get better and better. Thats what drives invention and inovation, good competition.

[RickDelten]

Wrong. A new sim should have better physics than all the previous sims and all the same features as previous sims (plus new features). We want it all in a new sim all the features , everything or else why would we bother?

[mswlogo]

I don't consider the multiplay "game-ish" at all. It's one of the most realistic parts of it. In that you can watch other flyers and learn from them, they can give you tips and help you. It's really a 4th dimension. Physics looks really good in FS1, in fact I find it hard to believe that video posted above isn't real, it looks way better than the set posted on Horizon Hobby (but I didn't check out every one at Horizon Hobby). We want both. If FS1 really is better physics and FS1 lacks multiplay it should push each other, competition is good.

[Max Stanford]

cap']If a sim comes out with more realistic physics than the previous sims then it not having multiplayer is not going to make it a step backward, that's rediculous.


You are very wrong o cap,

Your statement reminds me of many years ago Bill Gates saying "the internet will never amount to anything". Difference being, Gates was smart enough to realize his mistake and invest billions in making windows work with the internet well. Every game on the planet is gearing towards online play, even X Box and Playstation have become online machines. Online is what people like, I would not even own a computer if it were not for the internet.

I sure as heck would not buy a flight sim that did not support multiplayer. I want to have fun with it after I learn how to fly. Not including multiplayer capability in the would be a gigantic mistake for any new sim and would severly limit their sales.

Max

[HoverBovver]

in fact I find it hard to believe that video posted above isn't real, it looks way better than the set posted on Horizon Hobby (but I didn't check out every one at Horizon Hobby).

Sorry...to disappoint you but read Mselig's post again.

Here...(I've added the bracketed comments to help)


The first two [sim] videos [on the FSOne/HH website] include some 3D Funtana90 moves and
these can be compared to Kyle Woyshnis real [non sim] Funtana90 [posted] here...


So the video posted above is real life non sim footage which Mselig is using to compare to the sim footage on the FSOne/HH website. Bit misleading if you ask me. The actual sim footage is very ordinary...dare I say...last generation and it doesn't even contain the features of other sims available.

So if you want to downgrade from better sims by all means buy this.

[[ o ] cap]

I think on a lot of levels you all are right with the whole multiplay thing. I for one however have done the online sim play and found it pretty silly . everyone just seemed to be goofing off. I didn't say NO ONE wants multiplay, I simply stated that there are still people who don't need multiplay and would buy a sim for better physics than sub par physics with alot of extra frills. and to support that fact is that AFPD and Reflex sell thousands of units a month.....HMMMM, must be some people out there who could care less about multiplay. If the general feeling when FS1 is released is that it has better "physics", then it WILL become the most sold sim on the market. even without that awesome multiplay. like it or not G3 users it's a fact.

[RickDelten]

cap']I think on a lot of levels you all are right with the whole multiplay thing. I for one however have done the online sim play and found it pretty silly . everyone just seemed to be goofing off. I didn't say NO ONE wants multiplay, I simply stated that there are still people who don't need multiplay and would buy a sim for better physics than sub par physics with alot of extra frills. and to support that fact is that AFPD and Reflex sell thousands of units a month.....HMMMM, must be some people out there who could care less about multiplay. If the general feeling when FS1 is released is that it has better "physics", then it WILL become the most sold sim on the market. even without that awesome multiplay. like it or not G3 users it's a fact.

Hmm, okay so your saying that the physics of Reflex XTR and AFPD could be improved upon? Haven't you stated publically that your models fly exactly like their real life counterparts?? How could this be if the physics were lacking???

You can't have it both ways

G2 and G3 have proven that online multiplayer within an R/C sim work, are a fact and are here to stay.

[[ o ] cap]

Rick , I've never understood why you were so eager to start attacking me. I've never been anything but nice to you. Even when you personally emailed me asking about legal things you were concerned about. I'm not attacking you so why are you so defensive all the time. Remind me not to assist you with any questions again. All I'm saying is that if the physics of sims can improve then I'm all for it even if it does not have multiplay. And We have never stated that our planes are perfect. NO sim is perfect. We simply state that we have invested alot of time and resources to produce a plane that is as close to the real thing that Reflex can simulate. It's the thousands of people who have e maild feedback to us that say our planes are perfect. and if thats their opinion ....great.
Multiplay is proven and will ALWAYS be a great thing. "FOR A NICHE" of users out there. not everyone cares about multiplay. But some people will swear by it. Thats fine. And yes Rick, I am saying that the physics of Reflex, AFPD and G3 can ALL be improved upon (and yes I own all three). You'd have to be a retard not to see that.

and by the way Rick, I personally have always liked your work and hope you continue to do it. I'll always stand behind you on that. I have no beef with you so I don't understand your beef with me. But everytime you start trading posts like this I start to understand why so many people dislike you and it makes it tougher to defend you.

About half of the people who download planes from us still use dial up. We have customers from dozens of different countries and not everyone is as up to date on technology as the rest of us. Those people could care less about multiplay because they cant resonably use it. Thats what I mean when I say not everyone cares about multiplay.

[mswlogo]

Sorry...to disappoint you but read Mselig's post again.

Here...(I've added the bracketed comments to help)



So the video posted above is real life non sim footage which Mselig is using to compare to the sim footage on the FSOne/HH website. Bit misleading if you ask me. The actual sim footage is very ordinary...dare I say...last generation and it doesn't even contain the features of other sims available.

So if you want to downgrade from better sims by all means buy this.

Ah, thanks for correcting my error, sorry I misread the post.

[MSelig]

We're staying focused on the physics and the graphics which is where
this thread started. I've obviously "staked my claim" to doing the
aero in the sim for the airplanes, and it includes everything I know
and can cram into the computing power of a desktop PC and run in
realtime. The videos that are posted on the fsone.com site are there
for people to judge the sim - in effect a demo. Horizon will add more
eventually, e.g. non-3D airplanes, helis, dynamics soaring, etc. In
this thread I even posted a link to a real video of the Funtana90 for
comparison. For nearly every airplane in the sim we have actual
footage of the real life model airplane and we've used that in
development to validate each model.

On the graphics side we have over 20 panorama sites integrated into
the sim. We have 5 full 3D sites, and at runtime the user can pick
the sky they want from 40 different skyscapes. The demo videos show
this.

So again the focus is on physics and graphics. We're not taking
detours at the moment as we're closing in on the finish line.

There are a lot of things that we want to add and eventually we will
(e.g. multiplayer which Rick asks about here and before). But for now
we're focusing on the top priorities and what's listed on the features
page.

For those interested in the physics, one thing we have that's really
neat and new is a Scaling Wizard where the user can take a plane and
scale it up for down. For instance, this means that the 100-inch span
46% Ultimate TOC in the sim can be made to have, say, a 20-inch wing
span, or ~18-ft wing span like the full scale (or bigger!).

Scaling works with any of the baseline airplanes right out of the box
and in a matter of a few clicks the user can be setup w/ a re-scaled
airplane (no aerodynamics knowledge needed). Everything gets scaled
automatically - aerodynamics, propulsion, landing gear physics, mass
properties, crash physics, graphics, etc. The auto-scaled settings
can also be overridden to tweak things like the power and mass
properties. That's only needed of someone wants to try and match a
real airplane, e.g. a 100-lb AMA experiment class size limit or, say,
something like Sean Tucker's 400-hp Oracle biplane.

We also don't put limits on this, e.g. the jets can be made full
scale and fly at jet speeds (compressibility effects not included).
Scaling up works better than scaling down due to the low Reynolds
number aerodynamics that only gets more complicated as things get
smaller and smaller.

Michael

[HankF]

It will be interesting to see how it does with airframes that are significantly immersed in propwash such as the V-173 Flying Flapjack or the Convair Pogo XFY-1 tailsitter and such items as over/under aileron/flap arrangements. I personally have been looking for a sim that can aid in design work.

Hank

[MSelig]

It will be interesting to see how it does with airframes that are significantly immersed in propwash such as the V-173 Flying Flapjack or the Convair Pogo XFY-1 tailsitter and such items as over/under aileron/flap arrangements. I personally have been looking for a sim that can aid in design work.

Hank

Looking at one of these ....
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/aircraft/flapjack.htm
in any sim would be a multi-year research project probably.

The scaling wizard works w/ things like taking the

33% Edge 540 down to the mini-Edge

or

ParkZone J3 Cub up to a larger gas version

or

36-in Tribute (14 oz) to a 36-in Tribute (@8 oz)

We obviously model "wing in a propeller slipstream" aero in the sim, but it's
not nearly the entire wing! :)

Michael

[RickDelten]

[ o ] cap I am not attacking anybody and I don't need anybody to defend me. I am simply stating that any new sim better have all the features of the old sims and more. That includes physics, graphics, multiplay, plane/heli creation, trimschemes and the ability to make your own fields. Wouldnt you agree?

Right now users can create their own models for Reflex, AFPD and G3, is this going to be true for FS1?

[Lee R. Wheeler]

Yea Rick! Good looking out, will it be able to create your own models.

[MSelig]

[ o ] cap I am not attacking anybody and I don't need anybody to defend me. I am simply stating that any new sim better have all the features of the old sims and more. That includes physics, graphics, multiplay, plane/heli creation, trimschemes and the ability to make your own fields. Wouldnt you agree?

Right now users can create their own models for Reflex, AFPD and G3, is this going to be true for FS1?

What you have above, you've said before about a sim.

What I think: Everything is a tradeoff. A Ford Explorer/SUV can haul
more than a Porsche 911, but I'd rather be driving a Porsche anyday.

So all new products do not include all features/capabilities of prior
works. Sometimes they add new stuff not found in the competing
products or they make stuff better. That's our view.

What we do know is that we want to provide support for "moders" like
yourself and the W3 group (whoever), so things like you're asking about
are coming. But for now, we're not going to have in place the ability
for you to add your own 3D Studio Max model, etc. We have online
everything that we do include (it will cover your questions and more):

http://www.fsone.com/Features/

Everything you're asking about is here and been here since ~April.

I'll add that we are going to be open to working with people
interested in making their own models, but first things first. (In
fact, right now we have a job posting out there for modelers.)

ps Moders will be able to do repaints w/ the sim when it ships.

Michael

[HankF]

Michael, is the "Shifted ElevationView" similar to Realflight's "Ground view" in which the horizon is restricted to center of the frame or above? That's always been my favorite view. What would be ideal is to make the horizon position in the frame adjustable to, say, near the bottom of the frame.

Hank

[MSelig]

Michael, is the "Shifted ElevationView" similar to Realflight's "Ground view" in which the horizon is restricted to center of the frame or above? That's always been my favorite view. What would be ideal is to make the horizon position in the frame adjustable to, say, near the bottom of the frame.

Hank

The "Shifted Elevation View" is not the same as what's in G3. For one
thing we don't change the zoom in/out to keep the horizon in view.
That can get disorienting. It works like this. Suppose we kept the
camera centered on the airplane. In this case, the horizon goes out
of view pretty quick as the airplane moves up. So instead what we do
is shift the camera down as the airplane moves up. This helps to keep
both the airplane and the horizon in view. At some point in this
view, the airplane is at the top of the screen and the horizon is at
the bottom. If the airplane moves up in elevation higher, we keep the
camera on the plane ... and the horizon goes out of view until the
airplane gets back down again. The nice part about this camera type
is that it gives pilots some reaction time to when the ground is
coming up. It also seems to be a more natural view. We have lots of
camera views including the traditional keep-the-plane-centered view
and we have a variation of this w/ lag like one gets w/ the handheld
video camera. Most of the FS1 online video demos use this lagged
centered view.

Michael

[Max Stanford]

Its great to see you here on the forum MSelig. I have nothing for the highest respect for the work you have done on airfoils and design. You are an incredibly brilliant guy. I look foward to flying your sim also, it should make a much better pilot out of me.

The one thing you guys are really dropping the ball on though is Multiplayer, its much more important than you guys think. Microsoft even put multiplayer support it in its flight simulator, which was considered a one player sim like you are making.... Every software maker in the world has realized the importance of multiplayer online use and is scrambling to add it to stuff that did not support it before.

You underestimate the importance of Multiplayer support, it would make a huge difference in how much people use your sim and sales also. You guys should make it a priority to add good multiplayer support, it is even more important than some of the other stuff you mentioned.

[TazzyUK]

The 'kyle.macapple' wmv footage is Obviously real. I cant see how anyone could mistake that as being sim footage.
The FSone videos are amazing and extremely lifelike.

'campacking' posted links for the horizonhobby vidoes here in the Simulator section and I for one was gobsmacked.....
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=537477

Having spent many hours in 3DStudio and a little in Maya etc, those FSOne videos were impressive. My thinking is that if they put in that amount of effort into the Physics as they obviously do in the 'asthetics' then I would imagine FSOne being a formidable RC Sim!
I have my G3 Sim ordered and have no regrets but I will be keeping a keen eye on the FSOne sim

I trust that any sign of a FSOne Heli Video will be posted on here pronto!!

[MSelig]

Max - Thanks. The airfoil work is fun stuff! I've got a backlog of
airfoil things "to get out the door" ... which is going to happen this
summer. We'll see.

We don't want to diminish the importance of multiplayer stuff. It's
definitely on the table as something to look at, and it's not been
ruled out by any stretch.

Tazzy - Horizon will get some heli videos posted at some point. Right
now everyone is focused on finishing things. This project has been
three years in the works and it's finally coming to a close. Gasp!

"gobsmacked" - that's a good one. On this side of the pond,
I had to look that one up!

Michael

[pilotpete2]

Michael,
They refer to more than 30 "high fidelity" models to fly, what are they :confused:
Thanks,
Pete

[campacking]

I don't understand why anyone really needs online multiplay on an RC sim.
You can have 2 people flying on the same computer which is enough.

If I want to play multi online games then go buy a Game.
Want ot learn to fly then buy an RC sim.

Nuff said. :p

[TazzyUK]

But I think what the Pro 'Multiplayer in RC Sims' chappies are saying is that....
They think it's an important part/function/feature of a decent RC Sim and presumably that it's also a good teaching aid and one whereby a flyer can benefit from anothers experience if the other 'connected' player is showing him various moves/tips etc within the sim.
Though i think that maybe more difficult if the 2 online flyers are not able to communicate to eachother via audio.
Do they normally communicate??? Do they have some voip software running as well?
I dont know as my last RC Sim was 'Aerochopper' and my G3 should arrive hopefully soon! as I've yet to try it out (Frustrating really as I have no chopper!!)

Anyway I do both, or will do (I frequently play online with BF2, GRAW, COD2 but mostly BF2)

[mswlogo]

I don't understand why anyone really needs online multiplay on an RC sim.
You can have 2 people flying on the same computer which is enough.

If I want to play multi online games then go buy a Game.
Want ot learn to fly then buy an RC sim.

Nuff said. :p

Because the wife might get a little upset if your buddy came over at 11PM to to start flying planes. The difference between having a buddy over at a scheduled time and going to a virtual field ANY TIME is completely different.

[L0stS0ul]

Well G3 is the only sim to have multiplayer right now and it's buggy as all get out. As a matter of fact it's not even working for me right now. I get connected and then immediatly get dropped. It's never worked that good.

I'd rather have a sim that is top notch now and add multiplayer later. Since G3 is the only one and it's not implemented very well I think the world can wait. :P

[mswlogo]

Make sure you have all the updates. And if you try to connect to someone that does not also have all the updates, you'll have a problem. I've connected to some that just bump you off and others that work fine.

It seems to work for me.

But G3 is a little buggy, but not enough to get too worried yet.

[L0stS0ul]

I have all the updates but I'm firewalled and double nat'd by my ISP and I can't help it. G3 does not like that setup at all. Never had one problem with any other online game.

[campacking]

Because the wife might get a little upset if your buddy came over at 11PM to to start flying planes. The difference between having a buddy over at a scheduled time and going to a virtual field ANY TIME is completely different.

My point is why multiplay at all on an RC flight sim.
I see the purpose of an RC flight sim to learn new things. If you have a friend whos a good flyer then they can show you on FS one in 2 player mode and actually teach you something and you can actually communicate with them. :censored:

If you want to play a game then play a game.
I would rate performance and graphics well over online Multi play.

I play BF2 (battlefield2) which is a good online experience at a much lower cost and as people have said the online multiplayer G3 mode isn't that good. One person said it doesn't work properly and someone else has said in this post or another that everyone is just messing around and there is no control.
Its the same with BF2, there is no control or any way of getting any type of order when it involves multiplayers but in BF2 you can just shoot them with your rifle or send in a missile from afar riding in your air conditioned jet or helicopeter. ;)

[gradbert]

i took a quick look at the fsone web site and it seems to be missing a linux version )-:

I guess I'll stick with crrcsim

[mswlogo]

My point is why multiplay at all on an RC flight sim.
I see the purpose of an RC flight sim to learn new things. If you have a friend whos a good flyer then they can show you on FS one in 2 player mode and actually teach you something and you can actually communicate with them. :censored:
;)

The keyword there is IF...

I don't have a friend that's an expert in 3D, Heli, Glider, etc. etc.
And if I did, I don't think he'd want to come over at 7AM with 5 minutes notice or Midnight till 3AM. Or every day at 9PM for a couple weeks. Maybe your "friend" doesn't live nearby. It opens up a very wide pool of resources to you. Just flying with a very large variety of other folks is educational.

[campacking]

The keyword there is IF...

I don't have a friend that's an expert in 3D, Heli, Glider, etc. etc.
And if I did, I don't think he'd want to come over at 7AM with 5 minutes notice or Midnight till 3AM. Or every day at 9PM for a couple weeks. Maybe your "friend" doesn't live nearby. It opens up a very wide pool of resources to you. Just flying with a very large variety of other folks is educational.

And you really think that if you use G3 your going to be able to achive this.

Not from what I have seen so far you won't.
Bad and buggy connections with lots of people just doing there own crazzy stuff!
If you don't know any experts to teach you then how are you going to find one on G3 as you can't communicate with anyone and what makes you think they will want to spend all there time teaching a perfect stranger.
Come to think of it, whats an expert going to be doing playing a flight sim online anyway?

I'm sure you don't need someone sat next to you every second for you to learn something do you? Or do you?
Well, good luck with the learning.

Sorry if this sounds negative but I think at the moment its the way it is.
To put it bluntly I don't think Online play is a major selling point for a RC flight sim.

[RickDelten]

That couldn't be further from the real truth campacking.
Their are sessions you can join all the time online. Their are some dedicated sessions like RCMAC that have lots of flyers working together all the time. I have been practicing moves (with others) online for over a year on a regular basis now. And yes you can communicate with others through a variety of means, the chat box, VOIP, TeamSpeak or just the good ol telephone. I have also had many "private" one on one sessions with a real Pro who has offered to work with me on some of my problematic stuff. One guy spent hours with me and has spent hours with others helping guys work out the more advanced 3D moves. They are able to sit back and watch your moves on the controller on their screen and then give you instant feedback on how to improve. I know a guy who was taught by someone else how to do perfect rolling harriers on G3, he spent over 8 hours helping the guy. And lastly not everyone has problems with joining multiplayer, I am behind a router and 2 firewalls and can join and host sessions with no problems.

[Tweener]

Sorry if this sounds negative but I think at the moment its the way it is.
To put it bluntly I don't think Online play is a major selling point for a RC flight sim.I'll second that. The number one issue to me is: does it mimic more closely than any other sim the actual flight characteristics of the models represented for any flight situation? If the answer is "yes", then that's the one I want to help me polish my skills. All the rest is just window dressing. :p

[TazzyUK]

Their are sessions you can join all the time online. Their are some dedicated sessions like RCMAC that have lots of flyers working together all the time. I have been practicing moves (with others) online for over a year on a regular basis now. And yes you can communicate with others through a variety of means, the chat box, VOIP, TeamSpeak or just the good ol telephone. I have also had many "private" one on one sessions with a real Pro who has offered to work with me on some of my problematic stuff. One guy spent hours with me and has spent hours with others helping guys work out the more advanced 3D moves. They are able to sit back and watch your moves on the controller on their screen and then give you instant feedback on how to improve. I know a guy who was taught by someone else how to do perfect rolling harriers on G3, he spent over 8 hours helping the guy

THAT I can see an advantage with, especially with audio communication. A Teaching Aid. It could be a very useful addition to advice and tips given on forums like this

But if it's mostly used like how some people play BF2, where dozens of people are running around like headless chickens, shooting anything that moves and playing with little or no teamwork, (The RC parallel being dozens of RC Flyers, playing online, with no communication, having no relation to eachother, just doing there own thing!) then I can see why an RC Sim producer wouldn't want to implement it!

And yes, the number one priority must be the physics and wether it handles as close to the real thing as possible!

[MSelig]

Michael,
They refer to more than 30 "high fidelity" models to fly, what are they :confused:
Thanks,
Pete


So far all we're really talking about is what's posted online in the
gallery area of the FS One site. This means we don't want to over
promise outside of saying 30+ models and some are still in development
(finishing touches/no show stoppers).

But I'll add a bit more here related to how many (copied from some
stuff I said on another forum) and the scaling stuff that I posted
before in this forum:

"The scaling feature embodied within the sim can turn every airplane
in the sim into any size plane you want. For instance, we have a
Funtana 90, which we've turned into an electric 'mini Funtana' (36 in
span at 21 oz) and a version that's an ultra-lite mini Funtana 90 (31
in span at 9 oz). Also, we've used the Scale Wizard to create a full
scale Funtana (Kantana) at ~960 lbs. We've done the same sort of the
thing w/ the Hangar 9 Cessna 182 Skylane (stock @ 95 in span and 15
lb) and the BVM Bobcat jet (66 in span @ 22 lb). For the Cessna, the
variations go down the the E-flite electric Skylane all the way up to
33% scale. With the jet, we've scaled up to 120% which matches the
BVM Kingcat, and then again up to 150% (~$30,000 jet in real if you
could find one to buy). We've taken the entire group of scale
airplanes and equally scaled them to 33% size to make them all match.
So you can tow up the Swift aerobatic sailplane w/ the Pawnee both at
33% scale. And the list goes on. If you want your textures on the
models (tga files), then you can repaint the planes to your favorite.
If you don't like the size, then change it."

Sorry to get off topic ... as this one is sliding into this
multiplayer thing. :)

Michael

[mswlogo]

How good is it? Well, for starters I worked out the aerodynamics for
the airplanes in the sim so I obviously have my opinion.

But to keep my opinion out of the picture, we've recently posted some
new videos to the fsone.com website. All videos are actual footage
from FS One. The first two videos include some 3D Funtana90 moves and
these can be compared to Kyle Woyshnis real Funtana90 here:

http://kyle.macapple.com/Videos/KyleFuntana2_Music.wmv
(slow download)

To highlight the aerodynamics, we've included a lot of aerobatics in
the videos. Aerobatics poses the greatest challenge to modeling vs
flying straight and level where all sims will look alike. 3D flying
is the toughest thing of all. To model the 3D aero correctly means
having to take into account what happens when the flow comes at the
airplane from any direction at any speed. That's not so easy ... but
I've been thinking about aerodynamics about since ... ~1977 which is
when I started flying RC.

Michael

Ok, after I flubbed the comparison Micheal suggested I though it might be interesting to compare a G3 video in that mix. I just saw this on the G3 support forums. You be the judge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50lriI66CtA

[pilotpete2]

Michael,
The scaling sounds great, so I could scale down an Extra 300 to match my Goldberg Extra, including the weight? That's what I miss in AFPD that I am using now.
Regards,
Pete

[campacking]

Ok, after I flubbed the comparison Micheal suggested I though it might be interesting to compare a G3 video in that mix. I just saw this on the G3 support forums. You be the judge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50lriI66CtA


But does FS ONE have an opening canopy????
I mean, its got to be a must have in any flight sim.
How ya going to get out of the plane otherwise? ;)

[nose-over]

But does FS ONE have an opening canopy????
I mean, its got to be a must have in any flight sim.
How ya going to get out of the plane otherwise? ;)


Good point campacking! This sim would surely be a step backward if you couldn't open the canopy. :p

And that video by Rick Delton hows exactly why I got rid of G3. It's almost funny to watch. Nice video comparison, Point FS1

[mswlogo]

Regarding the canopy, that's not part of any G3 plane. That was a custom plane and someone decided to add it. I thought it's pretty powerful that you (the end user) can even add anything like that.

[RickDelten]

Good point campacking! This sim would surely be a step backward if you couldn't open the canopy. :p

And that video by Rick Delton hows exactly why I got rid of G3. It's almost funny to watch. Nice video comparison, Point FS1

I didn't make that video :confused:

[mswlogo]

The Video (Pilot) was Evan Johnstad, I assume he was thanking rick for his plane.

The Pilot may not have been as good as the pilot in FS1 or G3 is more realistic (don't know). The video compression may be higher (this was not a professionally done video from G3). But the physics on both simulators look pretty good. But of course you can't really tell for sure until you fly both.

[nose-over]

It's the physics of the G3 video that i'm talking about. Not Ricks models. Ricks models look great. G3 doesn't simulate inertia and momentum very well at all. I used it for almost a year and that was my biggest gripe about it. It seems like all the planes have a pole through the center of the plane and the plane just spins freely around the pole with no representation of inertia and momentum. the video shows it clearly. The flying and plane were fine.

[RickDelten]

Lets not forget that all the sims are constantly evolving. nose-over did you get rid of your G3 prior to the latest update? If you did then you may not realize that MAJOR changes to the physics took place, these changes for the most part made it fly very similar to AFPD. I have AFPD also and it gets updated also and have never tried Reflex so I cant comment on it. Even Clearview gets frequently updated and I am sure FS1 will go through a similar evolution after it gets released.

My original opinion of G3 was very bad, but the makers of G3 have been listening to its users and making changes accordingly, its still not anywherre near being a perfect sim.

Now the question "FS One !!!!!!! Is it really better than Realflight G3 ????? " cannot be answered untill FS1 gets into the hands of the users. I for one hope it raises the bar.

[nose-over]

Yes I've used it through all the updates. Just doesn't feel right. Like I said they have'nt addressed the inertia and momentum very well. Thats just my opinion. I do agree with you that none of the sims are perfect and I also hope that FS1 raises the bar. If it does then all sims should take note, If it doesn't then someone else will down the line I'm sure.

[MSelig]

Michael,
The scaling sounds great, so I could scale down an Extra 300 to match my Goldberg Extra, including the weight? That's what I miss in AFPD that I am using now.
Regards,
Pete

Yes, users can do that ... but it would have to be the next closest
thing in FS One -- an Edge 540. We've taken the baseline Edge 540
(33% scale in the sim) and rescaled it down to the mini-Edge 540 size
and also up to the new AMA size limit of 100 lb (turns out to be a
13-ft span).

To do that, all a user needs to do is type in the scale factor and
everything on the physics side is scaled down automatically. The
myriad examples are worked out this way.

Supposed that once the plane is automatically scaled down, the scaling
makes the new plane a bit too heavy as compared with the real model,
then the user can do all the scaling but with one override on the
weight (i.e. the user make the weight equal to whatever they want).
When a user gives those two pieces of info (size scale and final
weight) then it's all taken into account and all the other physics
stuff scales accordingly. If after that, it's got a bit too much
power, then the user can override that as well and the rest is taken
care of automatically, etc.

It is a very quick operation and works right out of the box as easy as
I described it above. I realize this sounds like snake oil ... but
truthfully I'm baffled that it all works out.

But like a lot of things, users can customize things if they want,
e.g. weight tweak, motor tweaks, prop tweaks.

Michael Selig
www.fsone.com

[Neil Walker]

Despite the odd flame, this is an interesting thread. And I definitely look forward to seeing what FS One ends up being.

I probably have a somewhat odd view of what an R/C sim should be. Start with the fact that I've played all the video games in my life that I ever care to - the net result being that an R/C sim for me is strictly a training tool. Something to learn new maneuvers on, something to help develop muscle memory and to practice on when the weather is bad.

One might think that I would be after the ultimate in accuracy, but that's not so. What I need a sim to be is convincing and complete. The convincing part is sort of obvious - for any sim, if it doesn't at least do a half decent job of suspending your disbelief that you are really sitting in front of a computer and not really doing what the sim is simulating then you aren't going to use it. I guess it's a mental thing - to make myself practise and use it to hone my R/C flying skills it has to be somewhat immersive, otherwise I just won't use it. So this is a combination of graphics, sound, camera angles, and other somewhat subjective qualities that go into the general feel of the sim.

The "complete" part is a bit different from the "ultimate physics accuracy" that everyone seems to want. Personally it is not important to me that some specific model flies exactly like the real thing. Take my helis - I have a Trex and a Logo 10. I'm not using a sim to learn how to fly a Trex or a Logo 10, I'm using a sim to learn to fly a helicopter. So what matters to me is that the sim is complete; that it does a reasonable job of modelling all of the significant physical properties of a flying helicopter. It better model translational lift. Retreating blade stall. Vortex ring state. Same with planes - it should model things like processional torque. So if I pull a loop with full power, as I do the upline I expect to have to put in some aileron to counteract the roll reaction that a real model would have. Likewise it should model pitch and roll coupling. I don't really care if it's not the same amount as my plane, because I'm not learning to fly my plane.. I'm learning to fly *a* plane. I don't even care that much about how all these aspects are modeled, how much of the math is highly accurate and how much is fudged a little bit - as long as the fudges are well-chosen.

Furthermore I really don't think you can make a model that "flies just like the real thing". The reason being of course that everyone's model is set up completely different. Take my helis - the smallest little changes on all sorts of tiny components like ball links, servo arms, servo speed & accuracy, dampers in the head, linkage setups, gyro settings, etc. etc. etc. can make a totally different flying heli. Of course you could try to tweak a million different variables until it gets close but who cares? The key is that whether or not the model flies exactly like my real model does not affect my ability to learn from it.

So what matters is that it is immersive enough to make it bearable enough to use on a regular basis, and complete enough to allow me to learn all the stick movements that will be required to fly a real heli/plane. Bonuses that help learn are a decent wind model that can be tailored by the user (including gusts) and the ability to speed up/slow down the simulation (helps figuring out complex moves).

I have no use for multiplayer at all:D

[wilson26]

I was at this year's Toledo show too & I thought that G3 blew FS1 out of the water. I really like the photo & flying fields it offers compared to the corn fields & flat land shots that the FS1 has. Not a big fan of flying in somone's backyard playground either. I have since purchased a G3 after visiting the Toledo show & I think that anyone who is interested in simulators or even picking up flying as a hobby, should buy the G3. Check out FS1's photo & flying fields & compare it to G3. You be the judge of which sim has better graphics. My vote is G3 all the way.

http://www.fsone.com/Features/Gallery.aspx#sites

http://www.realflight.com/gallery/index.html

[RickDelten]

wilson26 to be fair you were most likely looking at a "beta" version of FS1 (since it still has not been released). I am going to wait and see what it looks and flys like when its released.

[RydinHi]

In my opinion the G3 is a good sim, but not great, and its time to make way for something better. The physics of G3 are not even close to real life. How can I back this up? I can fly any plane in G3 like a pro, hovering, rolls, harriers, knife edges, etc.... get me out on the flying field and I cant do much at all. Ive heard the same feedback from many rc pilots at the field. Will the FS one be better? I beleive it will be way more realistic in handling, aerodynamics, and physics. Im a manager of a Hobbytown usa and I should be one of the first to get my hands on it so I will keep you guys updated!

[HankF]

I can fly any plane in G3 like a pro, hovering, rolls, harriers, knife edges, etc.... get me out on the flying field and I cant do much at all.

There is no way to simulate the effects of adrenaline and that makes all the difference in the world!

Hank

[skirtz]

....The physics of G3 are not even close to real life. How can I back this up? I can fly any plane in G3 like a pro, hovering, rolls, harriers, knife edges, etc.... get me out on the flying field and I cant do much at all. ...

This is such an unfair assesment, and not thoughtfull at all. If you had your credit card linked online and each crash deducted let say, $200 from it, I would very much like to see how many hovering rolls you would make on the sim. The answer is: ZERO.

The simulators are great learning tools, but not a replacement for the real thing. That's why they are called "Simulators" and not "RealFlators".

Stefan
http://rcflightsim.com

[RydinHi]

I can consistently do the manuevers no problem in the sim without crashing. I agree it is a great learning tool but is still far from the real thing. I also beleive each year they will keep getting closer and closer to the real thing. There are simulators out there for other applications that are dead on accurate. G3 is far from that. A simulator is to simulate real life, the closer the better. I guess time will only tell when FS one passes it by.

[RydinHi]

The one thing I did find out from a rep is that the first version of the FS one will not have the multiplayer feature, which doesnt really matter to me but at the same time doesnt make much sense. oh well. :o

[Neil Walker]

This is such an unfair assesment, and not thoughtfull at all. If you had your credit card linked online and each crash deducted let say, $200 from it, I would very much like to see how many hovering rolls you would make on the sim. The answer is: ZERO.

The simulators are great learning tools, but not a replacement for the real thing. That's why they are called "Simulators" and not "RealFlators".



This type of argument used to crop up all the time in the driving sims I was into for many years, in particular Formula One. You'd get these highly detailed simulations that supposedly modeled everything, right down to tracks that were sampled with GPS, etc... and people would woner how it could be that they could post laptimes similar to Michael Schumacher's fastest lap at some particular track. The answer of course is that even though a real F1 driver is incredibly talented, the person driving the sim can literally run thousands of laps at a track to practise over the course of a week or so - something that would take a real driver a lifetime of racing to accomplish (not to mention millions of dollars). And the sim driver can run every lap at 100% and not risk death. A crash that would kill a real driver or at least end the test session for a day simply means the sim driver hits "R" and starts again. And it goes on and on... the same thing is true for R/C sims.

One of the big things though that I rarely hear people talk about is the camera views. Next time you fly a sim, do your best to imagine you are on a flight line or in your small field where you normaly fly, and keep the plane in a tight box like you would in real life. You don't notice that you're all over the place in the sim because the camera just tilts and pans effortlessly, when in real life you'd be twisting around, craning your head way back to see the plane going overhead, etc.

This is another reason why I really couldn't care less about "ultimate accuracy", because there's so much working against you already that there isn't much point.

[Tweener]

One of the big things though that I rarely hear people talk about is the camera views. Next time you fly a sim, do your best to imagine you are on a flight line or in your small field where you normaly fly, and keep the plane in a tight box like you would in real life. You don't notice that you're all over the place in the sim because the camera just tilts and pans effortlessly, when in real life you'd be twisting around, craning your head way back to see the plane going overhead, etc.I'm currently stuck with RealFlight G2 as the best available to me. I have FMS and the Hanger 9 edition of Cockpit Master also. What I liked about G2 was the "look at ground" feature. If the plane flys directly overhead, the environment "warps" in a pretty weird way, but for the most part it does a great job of simulating my peripheral vision at the field. I'm not stuck guessing at altitude until I'm low enough to see the horizon again.

[campacking]

I have a friend who uses G3 most nights and all he does is prop hanging and out at the field he is getting better at prop hanging his Katana so fast its untrue so how can you say a sim doesn't help.

Adrenalin and money is what its down to.

Fly a foamy and you have all the confidence in the world.
then back to balsa and your heart is in your mouth once more.

As far as the model tracking in any RC FS, what they need is to support the Head tracking VR headsets. I used one of my friends in a first person shooter and a flight sim and it makes it so more realistic. I'm even tempted to get one but with no support on the FSims it will just be for games. :(

[vitek]

what they need is to support the Head tracking VR headsetsRealFlight has worked with the TrackIR (http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/) system since its original release. See... (http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/03-enhanced-games/game-realflight.html)

Travis

[MSelig]

Further up in this thread I mentioned the FS One online videos on the
site and made reference to some video from Kyle Woyshnis flying his
(real) Hangar 9 Funtana 90. We took our own video during the
development of the sim model and here's some cuts from it:

http://www.inertiasoft.com/videos/Real_FuntanaS90_FlightTests.wmv

One difference is that in the simulator movies, more throttle is used
and things are a bit more agressive.

The video includes the 3D stuff - walls, harriers, blenders,
parachutes, elevators, high-rate rolls, etc. But like I mentioned
they're a bit easy on the throttle and speed at entry. It was a bit
windy BTW. Mike McConville is at the sticks. I was commenting in the
background (some audio cropped out). It was my first up close and
personal experience witnessing 3D flying - a real eye opener!

Caveat - How things look in the air depends a lot on the size and wing
loading. This FuntanaS 90 from Hangar 9 is light: 69-in span @ 7.3
lbs. We have other versions in the sim created through the scaling
gadget. These include:

36-in span @ 21 oz - sized like the E-flite Mini-Funtana

32.5-in span @ 9 oz - sized like some of the lighter indoor EPP/Depron
planes

96-in span @ 19-lb - scaled up Hangar 9 construction, light (sized
like a 33% scale Katana)

96-in span @ 26-lb - sized like the Krill Aviation Katana S 33% that
did very well at the XFC this year in the hands of some very good
pilots!

47% scale 136-in span @ 44-lb - sized like the Krill Aviation VOLEX
Revolution (but the VOLEX Revolution is definitely a different plane,
i.e. different layout)

100% scale 23-ft span @ 960 lb - sized like the full-scale Katana.

We're not doing any "repaints" on these, i.e. they are a re-sized
Funtana 90 model. All of the physics are scaled up/down accordingly.

We've not made this many scale variants for all of the stock
airplanes in the sim. In all we have about ~30-40 scaled variants
total. We might prune out some.

The point here is that in each of these different setups the airplanes
react a bit differently due to size and weight. As the planes get
bigger they tend to push more when going into things like walls, and
plunge more in things like stalls. Also the "relative speed"
(i.e. how fast they look) changes depending on the size. Small
airplanes "look" faster with respect to how many wing spans they
travel in a second.

I'll add that when doing a 3D "wall" maneuver, if the elevator is pulled up a bit
slowly the plane will just turn nicely and shoot up and w/ throttle it
will keep going up. That's not a wall. Usually, the elevator is hit
hard and the throttle is chopped (or nearly so) at entry. If the
rotation rate is fast (fast elevator and a lot of it), the plane will
yaw to the right from the propeller gyroscopic forces - this is what
happens in the sim video and also the real video.

Michael

[coder1024]

Michael,

I don't currently have a sim, but based on the web site and the videos I've seen, FSOne looks pretty impressive. I did have a couple questions about the product and would appreciate it if you could shed some light on them.

- How much consideration have you given to electric sailplanes? I saw electric planes on your site and gliders, but not powered sailplanes.

- The panoramic flying sites look great! Will it be possible to import a panoramic photo of your own flying site? I'm comparing this to RealFlight G3 and trying to decide which to go with and this was one thing mentioned in the G3 demo. Not critical, but it would be a nice-to-have feature.

- Will FSOne accept any analog joystick setup in Windows for flight inputs? i.e., if I manage to get an old transmitter setup so that Windows sees it as a joystick, will FSOne use that as an input? My assumption would be yes, and perhaps this sounds like somewhat of a dumb question, but some of the inquiry response Emails I've received back wrt G3 made me question this.

[MSelig]

Michael,

I don't currently have a sim, but based on the web site and the videos I've seen, FSOne looks pretty impressive. I did have a couple questions about the product and would appreciate it if you could shed some light on them.

- How much consideration have you given to electric sailplanes? I saw electric planes on your site and gliders, but not powered sailplanes.

- The panoramic flying sites look great! Will it be possible to import a panoramic photo of your own flying site? I'm comparing this to RealFlight G3 and trying to decide which to go with and this was one thing mentioned in the G3 demo. Not critical, but it would be a nice-to-have feature.

- Will FSOne accept any analog joystick setup in Windows for flight inputs? i.e., if I manage to get an old transmitter setup so that Windows sees it as a joystick, will FSOne use that as an input? My assumption would be yes, and perhaps this sounds like somewhat of a dumb question, but some of the inquiry response Emails I've received back wrt G3 made me question this.

** First, sorry, my reply is a bit long. **

Electric gliders - On the website we show the Swift scale sailplane
and the Tracon. The graphics models for these do not have props like
you noted. They are sailplanes. But we've included versions of these
with electric motors and props and called them "TraconE" and "SwiftE".
We've not added the prop graphics in these cases, but still they have
the electric motors and props added (and the sounds) on the physics
side.

We also have a dynamic soaring version of the TraconE, and we have a
straight wing versions of the Tracon w/ a repaint (red banded tips).

There's also the beginner E-flite Ascent electric sailplane.

Like I've been mentioning all of these can be scaled up or down in
size (Discus launch to full scale, whatever) and the physics scales
automatically, or overrides can be given, e.g. the weight can be give,
etc.

Panos - Very glad to hear you like them. We have a mix from regular
RC flying fields, to ones were only gliders would go, to night flying
for helis, etc. We have an open format for our pano files. This
means people skilled in generating the panos can take them and get
them in the sim. The simulator takes a full 180x360 deg spherical
pano at 8192x4096 resolution. This is the standard factor of two
sizing. The basic image, however, does need to be split up into tiles
(smaller blocks) because graphics cards cannot swallow a full
8192x4096 image in one go. We're not limited to this size. Things
can go bigger or smaller. Bigger does to buy very much, but smaller
is good for getting things to run on computers with less capable
graphics cards.

Joysticks - Short answer: The simulator does run with standard gaming
joysticks. It comes preconfigured for some standard ones like the
Microsoft Sidewinder and newer Logitech Extreme 3D/Pro. These are
standard 4-axis USB joysticks.

Joysticks - Long answer continues: We also have the controller that
comes w/ the sim (full package) and things are also setup to work w/
JR radios, etc as well.

We have a "Transmitter Editor" that will allow users to set up their
own expo's, dual rates, mixing, flight modes, etc. But all of this is
not necessary. By this I mean: When a user picks a plane in the sim
it will automatically pick the default transmitter, i.e the radio is
not part of the plane. This means the user can pick instead of the
standard FS One transmitter some other transmitter, e.g. like a
joystick.

So in a nutshell is works like real - pick the airplane and then pick
what transmitter to use. This might not sound real clear, but again
it's like real - pick the plane, and the Tx. We have an auto-select
option (user preference setting) that will automatically pick the Tx
once the plane is selected. Sorry to be wordy on this. I know the
website does not go into this much detail (yet).

I'll add that for every airplane in the simulator, we have a
transmitter already setup for it. For example, for the MiG-15 we have
a transmitter setup w/ throttle, rudder, elevator, ailerons, flaps,
speed brakes and wheel brakes. On top of this the Tx for the MiG-15
has 3 flight modes to cover takeoff, cruise, and high rate. These
flight modes include mixing flaps to elevator, aileron to rudder,
aileron differential, etc. For the Tracon sailplane we have a bunch
of radio stuff for it, e.g. presets on the flap, crow mode, aileron to
rudder mix, etc. The Ultra Stick Lite gasser is perhaps the most
complex with 5 flight modes. The simplest is the beginner Firebird!

For each of these radio setups, we made them work for the FS One
controller, a JR radio setup (where the JR radio is just used for
joystick input), and the game controllers. So each airplane can be
flown w/ a range of input devices. If it's USB, we can read it.

I've described above the "software radio" that can be used with any
sort of USB input. Of course, the sim works with a users own radio
and that radio's own expos, dual rates, etc.

I covered a lot here, but other people might be wondering how things
work w/ the controllers.

** Something tells me that I might need to come back and edit this post
to clarify things w/ the joystick question. At least your basic question
is answered - YES. **

[rutat]

What is the copy protection scheme?

[PeteSchug]

I'm currently stuck with RealFlight G2 as the best available to me. I have FMS and the Hanger 9 edition of Cockpit Master also. What I liked about G2 was the "look at ground" feature. If the plane flys directly overhead, the environment "warps" in a pretty weird way, but for the most part it does a great job of simulating my peripheral vision at the field. I'm not stuck guessing at altitude until I'm low enough to see the horizon again.

I would not say "stuck with." While G3 may model some things better than G2, stuff like landing is bone simple. I find it way harder to do good landings with G2 than G3, and on some planes it feels more like a "real" landing. G3 feels like there is an autopilot in the plane. Same for the Ikarus sim. I like that one a lot, but it feels like nothing goes wrong unless you make it so.

I am looking forward to FS1 just to see if there is some improvement in feel. For some reason I've never gotten around to trying Reflex, though I've seen it at the WRAM show a couple of years running.

I had the first wire frame sim on my Apple ][ way back. I think that was Don Brown, and even though the frame rate was probably under 10 it still helped with things like four point rolls. I spent a lot of time on that.

Pete

[Tweener]

I would not say "stuck with." While G3 may model some things better than G2, stuff like landing is bone simple. I find it way harder to do good landings with G2 than G3, and on some planes it feels more like a "real" landing.<snip>

PeteAgreed. The main thing that impressed me about G2 when I first tried it was the realism on approach. It has helped me with my real-world landings immensely in getting that last bit of pitch to stall just a few inches off the ground. Before the sim, I would often touch down too soon causing me to "balloon" back into the air to a height of 2-3 feet at a dangerously close-to-stall speed or else I'd be a little too high at stall and slam down hard on the gear. (One three-pointer on my tricycle gear trainer was hard enough to flex the nosewheel strut spring to the point of a prop-strike!) I haven't had a hard landing or prop strike for at least 30 flights, and if I happen to "balloon" I'm able to fly it out okay now. :D

[Tugrul]

What is the copy protection scheme?

I also wonder about "copy protection" thing.

[Tugrul]

Maybe it is little out of subject of the thread but I prefer to have a wireless dongle with FSOne.

I saw many in plotters and routers. If you dont have a small piece of "thing" connected to your PC, you can not use the related software. And it has no wires. By that way, we can use whatever we want for the simulator : Joystick, transmitter, mouse or whatever you connect to your PC. If you want to use your own transmitter, ordinary TX cables should work.

I hope FSOne will be like this.

[rutat]

The serial (occasionally paraell port) dongles are a complete PITA in networks. I cannot even begin to tell you the issues I've had over the years with Rainbow, etc. dongle. A imple USB cable with a "baluns"-like dongle works just fine TYVM. Digi camera cables look like what I'm talking about. If you really want wireles sim, what would be cool is a board that took the tx rf and controlled the sim. Then you'd need a single PIC board installed in your PC.

[Neil Walker]

I think you missed his point. He's not asking for a full wireless setup - he just doesn't want whatever functions as the dongle to be tied to his Tx cable, forcing him to use FSOne's Tx cables - and making you SOL if FSOne doesn't support your particular Tx. And also making you SOL if your cable breaks, as cables tend to do. I agree completely... don't really care what the copy protection is - just implement it so the user isn't limited to FSOne's choice of Tx cables.

[BillL]

I just bought G3 to use with a Futaba 9C. I'm trying to master flying a Raptor 30.

Does anyone know the sittings I should use?

Bill L

[Tweener]

Yeah, I'd like the idea of a dongle that just plugs into a USB port sort of like a portable flash memory card, with another USB through-put port on it. The sim could come with a cable that would allow the connection of the major brands of TX's, or a dummy TX, or no cable at all. The included cable or dummy TX could be used with any application that recognizes it as a system input interface. Likewise, the sim having checked for the presence of the dongle would accept any kind of system input interface for mapping, allowing those who already have an input cable the option of using their own. This would even allow for three-tier pricing of the software.

[MSelig]

To answer some questions - The FS One software will work w/ a wireless
USB joystick, i.e. any USB game joystick input wireless or otherwise.
Just plug the wireless thing into your computer, and configure the
axes, and it's good to go. Your third-party wireless gadget can be
plugged into any USB port on the computer. The FS One USB interface
must be used at the same time, and it's not setup to take input from
another USB device, and it's not wireless (dashing any hopes there).
The FS One USB interface will only take input from a real Tx or the FS
One controller.

Michael

[Tugrul]

I think you missed his point. He's not asking for a full wireless setup - he just doesn't want whatever functions as the dongle to be tied to his Tx cable, forcing him to use FSOne's Tx cables - and making you SOL if FSOne doesn't support your particular Tx. And also making you SOL if your cable breaks, as cables tend to do. I agree completely... don't really care what the copy protection is - just implement it so the user isn't limited to FSOne's choice of Tx cables.

Yes Neil, thats exactly what I ment. Sorry my English.

I have 2 PC's (1 at work, 1 at home) and when I want to work with simulation, everytime I should carry my Futaba and Reflex cable from home to work. But it would be very nice, if there was a possibility to just unplug the dongle from one PC and plug it to another PC and use simulator with another kind of radio / joystick on the second PC.

[rutat]

Thanks for the dongle info. It is really too bad the sim makers can't afford/won't (?) use software keys, like Elan. <sigh>

Now... what is FSOne's policy on replacing lost/eaten/stepped on dongles?

[coder1024]

If you really want wireles sim, what would be cool is a board that took the tx rf and controlled the sim. Then you'd need a single PIC board installed in your PC.
You can use the below:
http://www.mftech.de/usb-interface_en.htm
If you scroll down on that page, you'll see they have a circuit which will plug into the servo plugs on your Rx. It reads the servo commands and sends them back to the USB interface (top of the page). This way, you could plug it into any Rx and drive your sim. Sort of a round-about way. Ideally, you'd use the trainer plug, but if you don't have a trainer plug, this would probably work (unless you wanted to open up the Tx and find the PPM signal, but then its not wireless anymore).

[coder1024]

Michael, thanks for the reply and clarifications. Looking forward to the release!

[PilotSmith]

Is it just me or am I missing something on the G3 graphics? The demo and the real thing I tried in the hobby stored looked kind of cheesy. Maybe it was the field that was selected but I didn't like them. In contrast the photo realistic fields with ClearView are cool. I only use the sim for helicopters as I've found that my airplane flying skills have not helped me very much in flying helicopters. :o I'd get bored flying in fields that look like a cheap video game. I just created my first photo flying field for ClearView. I plan to do a couple more of the places where I fly so I can practice on the PC flying where I actually fly. Frankly, I doubt I'd ever buy FS One or G3 simply because of their excessive price. But the demo videos of FS One looked very nice. I was glad to find ClearView which was reasonably priced and for is perfect to get my orientation down and while flying in realistic looking fields. As far as multiplayer ability, I could care less.

[Digs9101]

I saw on horizon's site that the availability went from mid August to mid September. Any idea if this is because the are selling out or has FS One delayed the launch?

Also is there any advantage of getting the version with the FS One transmitter or should I save the $30 and use my own TX?

Thanks,
Digs

[Tweener]

Also is there any advantage of getting the version with the FS One transmitter or should I save the $30 and use my own TX?I'd use my own TX simply because the feel would be exactly the same as at the field. Plus saving $$ never hurts.... :p

[MSelig]

I saw on horizon's site that the availability went from mid August to mid September. Any idea if this is because the are selling out or has FS One delayed the launch?

Also is there any advantage of getting the version with the FS One transmitter or should I save the $30 and use my own TX?

Thanks,
Digs

There is going to be some added convenience to getting the version w/
the controller because we will have already setup all the aircraft w/
the various flight modes, mixing, expos, etc. For instance, with the
UltraStick, it uses 5 flight modes and they are already setup.
Setting up all the aircraft (airplanes and heli's) on your own is
going to take some time.

Having said that if you have an 8-channel Tx, then you can set that up
to put out 8-axes just like the stock controller. In this case,
you're then emulating the stock 8-axes controller with the advantage
of using your own gimbals. In the sim you then use the "FS One"
controller setups and the sim software will not know the difference
(this is by design). As a result you can go ahead and use all of the
"software radios" that we've setup, e.g. the 5 flight modes for the
UltraStick, etc.

Every airplane in the simulator has it's own software radio Tx setup.
When you pick the plane, it will automatically pick the Tx (default
option).

So there are four ways to fly:

- Use the stock FS One controller w/ the software radio setups

- Use your own Tx w/ the FS One software radio setups

- Use your own Tx and setup your own mixes, flight modes, etc on your
own Tx.

- Finally, you can also fly w/ standard USB game joysticks + the FS
One software radio setups.

Of course, the FS One software radio setups are editable.

Some more detail about this was mentioned above in this thread.

----------

As for the mid-Sept availability date, software development has a
tendency to corrupt all schedules. The new Sept date is very real,
however.

Michael

[Digs9101]

Thanks for the info. I just watched all the demo videos on fsone.com. It looks very impressive.

Will I be able to load the software both on my PC and my laptop, or will I only be able to load it on one or the other?

Thanks, Digs

[MSelig]

This question goes to the license agreement. I'm pretty sure that
it's going to have the standard line that it can be installed on one
computer, etc etc etc. I don't think Horizon is going to reinvent
the wheel when it comes to the legalese of the EULA.

Michael

[MatsGF1]

Will there be support for Multiplex TX in FSOne?
For example the Evo and new Cockpit SX?

[pflumitch]

This sim has caught my eye...i will be in the market for one soon in the next couple month...

[pilotpete2]

Me too, can't wait to try it. I may be selling my AFPD down the road, yes USB dongle included :)
Pete

[maximumgravity]

Michael/MSelig,

Thanks for taking the time to post and continue to answer on this forum - its a big help to have an "inside scoop".

Since there is not much info on the heils, and they have only lightly been touched on in this thread, can you give any impressions, or info that would be informative regarding the feel of helis in FS One? Did you help on the heli side of things - and have you compared to a real R/C heli? It has been a few years since I flew any R/C sims, but none of them really captured the "feel" of helis - they all helped learn to fly them - but none of them really captured the "feel" of hitting ground effect when slowing to a hover, or feeling the difference in Idle Up, or autos, or even the way the rotor disk moves the heli (where most sims seem to move the heli, then the disk follows behind).

Thanks again for all of your input on this thread.

[airdawg]

Any chance there will be a demo of FSOne made available for testing your helicopters? I checked it out at RCX the guy said it was either an alpha or beta and was unfinished at that time (I hope so cause it was less then stellar at that time). I'd like to primarily use it for Helicopters and more importantly I'd like to get my hands on a demo to see what my framerates will be like with my current setup (gf fx5200).

[MSelig]

Here's some replies to cover the questions above:

I've not been involved w/ the heli side, and things there are not all
finished. So we've not posted any online heli videos yet. What I've
observed w/ the heli development is that the radio setup is key, and
that is user specific. That's my impression (same thing goes w/
airplanes).

For "demos" we have our videos on the web site, and some LHS dealers
will have FS One setups for people to try out. In time, we might have
some downloadable demo, but the priority at the moment (after 3 yrs of
development and testing) is to finish the product and go from there.

As for people wanting to test things out on their computers, we have
specs that outline the requirements. I'll add that if a computer can
run G3, then it will run our sim and in our experience it will run
faster than G3. I can say that w/ about 99% confidence (1%
uncertainty because it's Windows and full of surprises).

We have set our specs a bit higher, but this is to avoid complications
w/ slower computers one step down. The sim will run on slower
computers, but generally more of this is better: more RAM (cheap),
more front-side bus speed (comes w/ a decent computer), better
graphics card ($100-$150 class of cards). When the product starts
selling in a month, the FS One forum *should* be up and running to
cover questions related to computer specs, etc.

The interface that comes w/ the sim will take any PPM input. In the
box comes cables for JR and Futaba/Hitec transmitters. Multiplex
question - since I don't know anything about Multiplex transmitters, I
think it's a good question to ask on the FSOne/Horizon site:
http://www.fsone.com/About/Contact.aspx

Michael

[jinithith2]

If this question has been answered previously, then I'm terribly sorry, but I was just wondering if the FSone will get all of the features of G3? or most of it? like being able to download other a/c to the sim files? I know you said not right now, but will it be able to soon? thanks!

[MSelig]

If this question has been answered previously, then I'm terribly sorry, but I was just wondering if the FSone will get all of the features of G3? or most of it? like being able to download other a/c to the sim files? I know you said not right now, but will it be able to soon? thanks!


The short answer is - Yes, we will have downloadable aircraft. Longer
answer is - We envision that some people might want to do "repaints"
of some of the airplanes in the sim and if they want to share those,
Horizon is going to make that possible on the FS One website.

At the current moment there are 25 airplanes and 7 helis. We've said
on the website, 30+ aircraft, so it's 32 to be exact. However, 5 of
the helis are also setup with training gear (i.e. +5 more helis for
training). Also from the 25 airplanes, the Scaling Wizard has been
used to create 75 more airplanes of all sizes. These range from a
3-inch span Aerobird-Xtreme up to a full-size Pawnee at 36-ft span.
These airplanes are not just magnified in size, but also the
underlying physics is automatically scaled up/down as well. With the
Scaling Wizard we have created many 33% scale planes, and also a group
of 4.5% and 1/12-scale park flyers. Also, there's a bunch of stuff
inbetween, e.g. some modern-day super-light foamies created from the
baseline Tribute and Ultimate EFL foamies, and some larger 100-lb
class airplanes that fit inside the new AMA experimental category.
We've also added 3 full-scale airplanes w/ "constant speed/variable
pitch" props that function like ... full scale props to keep the RPM
around 2700 like a Lycoming engine. These full-scale constant-speed
prop planes are the Ultimate TOC, Funtana90 (~Katana) and Edge 540
each w/ about 300-400 Hp all flyable w/ RC. But we've also added
support for standard USB joysticks, so people used to flying that way
will like that feature.

So I'd like to think that everyone is going to find something that
fits their interest w/ the +100 aircraft in the shipping sim, or if
not, there's 75 airplanes as examples of how to take a baseline and
scale in any direction. So hopefully, some of these will get
repainted and shared.

At some point, we're going to open up the file format so that people
can import their on graphics models.

Michael

[jinithith2]

you sold me.
Now i'm gonna have to wait till early september! ;)
looking forward to a gr8 flight sim :D