How bad is CF dust

[Red Baron 47]

I'm such a beginner I haven't even cut a CF rod yet. I hear a Dremel cut off wheel is best. That makes dust. I was going to do it in the basement, but that's a pain since my building area is on the first floor. I thought of doing it in a cardboard box. Maybe it's heavy enough to not blow out. Then I thought of putting an old Dust Buster in there and directing the cuttings into that. If the bag isn't fine enough that would make matters worse by blowing the dust around.

I used to sand fiberglass and itched for days afterward.

What do you folk do?

Thanks,
RB

[Dorme]

I cut it with a small #13 saw from X-acto. I don't use power saws to cut it because of the dust. If you do cut it with a dremel, use a bottle of water to mist the area and CF. The water won't hurt it and will keep the dust from becoming airborne. Use a mask and toss it after.

[sf_247]

I have used a dremel to modify CF pieces with good luck, but it does make a lot of fine dust. An extension cord and the back yard may be the answer. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

Shawn
eflightpower.com

[Red Baron 47]

You guys confirmed my fears.

Dorme, how much work is it sawing it? Do the blades dull quickly? Could I just put a damp paper towel under my PanoVice for debris?

Shawn, I thought of that, but that's as much of a pain as going downstairs.

I have some coarse, flexible cutting wheels for my Dremel. They're a bit larger in diameter than the heavy duty brittle ones. Maybe put one of those in my 6v electric drill on low speed and hold it in a water trough... Maybe I'm nuts too. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

I know I won't let it get around.

[radix2]

Originally posted by Red Baron 47:
how much work is it sawing it? Do the blades dull quickly? Could I just put a damp paper towel under my PanoVice for debris?


Red,
Before you get too bound up on this one, I would recommend cutting a couple of pieces to see what is is like. Unless you are building a F-16 in 1:1 scale, I doubt you will be generating much dust from this activity.

A small Xacto or Zona saw works fine, and the small kerf (~1/64") turns very little material to dust. CF saws very easily due to its brittleness, for the sizes we use, a couple of pulls is all it takes. Personally, I save the cut-off wheels for heavy music wire myself. YMMV

[Daveairway]

Carbon Fiber is very, very, nasty stuff. Do NOT get it in your lungs. It will not leave and will (may?) cause big time problems.

I sneak outside with a very fine tooth jewelers saw..... and mask.

Dave

[davidfee]

I'll second radix2's motion. I use lots of carbon, and I basically don't worry about it unless I'll be doing a LOT of sanding. At most, I'll use a paper mask. When sanding, I often use some water, but that's just because the sandpaper works better wet. For rods, I'd just use a Zona saw... as people have said, 2 or 3 strokes should have you through it. I'm more afraid of balsa dust than carbon. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

take care and have fun!
-David

[Red Baron 47]

Thanks again guys. I have a "standard" set of 3 xacto saws. They fit in the big handle and have ribs down their backs. Is one of those what you're talking about?

RB

[leccyflyer]

One thing to watch out for though is if your computer (or other electronic bits) are in the same room as you are doing your CF cutting or sanding.

IIRC the military have "carbon bombs" which more or less spread carbon dust in an airburst and completely disable the enemies electronics- wot wiv carbon being conductive and all that, it isn't the best stuff to get sucked into your PC.

Of course I may have just seen that in a James Bond film http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

cheers

Brian

[jimbarstow]

I have very little scientific info to back this up but my background is as a chemist.

Asbestos causes problems in the lungs primarily through mechanical means; it doesn't react chemically. I would be concerned that carbon fiber might act in the same fashion. There is NO safe level of asbestos exposure. Keep in mind that it took decades to discover the problems with asbestos.

I never cut carbon fiber with a saw, I hack
at it with blade and wear a respirator. This is one case where it may pay to be extra careful.

[Daveairway]

Jim,

I really think that you are right. Same goes with CA glue and epoxy. Some people get away with it for a while.... I know of others who have not! Why take the chance?

We have alot of items in this hobbie that can get you (props are one, even hand carved ones, Jim I really like your planes.) Again, I suggest that we all treat the aspects and dangers of modeling with respect!

Dave

[This message has been edited by Daveairway (edited 05-17-2001).]

[leccyflyer]

More seriously now... thanks for the heads up Jim

Here's a link to the asbestos research institute website which evaluates the various asbestos substitutes
http://www.asbestos-institute.ca/presskit/appendix_2.html

Anectdotal evidence of 90 year old grannies (who used to spread asbestos dust on their cornflakes before lighting up the first of their 90 Capstan Full Strength of the day) apart it is generally agreed that there is a health problem with asbestos. That problem is mechanical, due to the particular configuration of the fibres, and other fibrous materials listed in this link apparently have similar health risks.

I learned of the sad death of a fellow modeller and well known UK eflight supplier just a few weeks ago who had apparently contracted a fatal carcinoma which was attributed to a minimal exposure to asbestos some 30 years ago. Anyone from a mining district will know many miners who lost their lives to "the dust" or pneumoconyosis (dunno if that spelling is even close to correct). It makes sense to take precautions with this stuff - including carbon fibre and "normal" fibreglass. Mind you don't poke your eye out with the thin rods as well http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

cheers

Brian

[davidfee]

I'm not meaning to dispute the possible effects (long or short-term) of carbon dust inhalation... but how much carbon dust does one expect to inhale from cutting a couple carbon rods? I assume we're talking about the ones used in things like the IFO/mouse slow-fliers. It seems to me that this amount of dust is easily confined by means of misting with water, etc., and as a result can not pose any significant health risk. A paper mask should be more than sufficient protection, assuming you are not grinding the stuff right next to your face. We are not talking about industrial applications and career-term exposure, I presume.

Obviously we want to keep any sort of particulate matter out of our lungs. This is true of anything... be it carbon dust, balsa dust, smoke or dirt. The silicates in the dust at the beach/desert/rock quarry will be carcinogenic in the same mechanical way as asbestos. It seems to me that good technique and common sense can go a long way here. Let us please not start any hysteria like I saw surrounding boron fibers back in the 80's (I was just a kid and I was terrified!).

Work carefully, use common sense, protect yourself and you will enjoy this hobby for a lifetime.

God bless,
David

[jimbarstow]

Originally posted by davidfee:
I'm not meaning to dispute the possible effects (long or short-term) of carbon dust inhalation... but how much carbon dust does one expect to inhale from cutting a couple carbon rods? I assume we're talking about the ones used in things like the IFO/mouse slow-fliers. It seems to me that this amount of dust is easily confined by means of misting with water, etc., and as a result can not pose any significant health risk. A paper mask should be more than sufficient protection, assuming you are not grinding the stuff right next to your face. We are not talking about industrial applications and career-term exposure, I presume.

Obviously we want to keep any sort of particulate matter out of our lungs. This is true of anything... be it carbon dust, balsa dust, smoke or dirt. The silicates in the dust at the beach/desert/rock quarry will be carcinogenic in the same mechanical way as asbestos. It seems to me that good technique and common sense can go a long way here. Let us please not start any hysteria like I saw surrounding boron fibers back in the 80's (I was just a kid and I was terrified!).

Work carefully, use common sense, protect yourself and you will enjoy this hobby for a lifetime.

God bless,
David

I agree that common sense is necessary and taking precautions is an individual's choice. Some things to consider though...

Toxins and carcinogens work in fundamentally different ways. With a carcinogen, theoretically all it needs do is to convert one cell and you are dead. When dealing with potential carcinogens I am VERY careful. With normal toxins, I admit to being much more relaxed.

[jimbarstow]

Originally posted by davidfee:
The silicates in the dust at the beach/desert/rock quarry will be carcinogenic in the same mechanical way as asbestos

One more thing...

Silicosis is a well documented but poorly monitored disease. The powers that bee (OSHA) seems to rediscover it every decade or so when another bunch of cases crop up. (I heard that sandblasting has been banned in the UK due to well documented health effects. It is obviously still allowed in the US. I wonder if any of our UK contributors can verify this?)

[davidfee]

Ok, but the sunshine we all enjoy is a carcinogen. Each and every one of us gets some form of skin cancer every day... but our bodies are wonderful things... one cancerous cell is generally no problem for a healthy immune system. Of course, it's a different story when our immune system is somehow compromised... or when many cells are affected faster than the immune system can destroy them. If there's one thing I've learned in school, it is that "everything causes cancer."

Bottom line: Just be careful... how ever you want to interpret "careful"... and enjoy your hobby.

[davidfee]

BTW Jim, I'm on your side. I'm a chemist also. (well, I'm still in school, but you know what I mean) I'm just a bit on the sensitive side because, being in school (especially here in CA), I see a lot of hysteria and paranoia caused by misinformation or just misunderstanding. You are absolutely right to be careful with what you inhale. Since my spontaneous pneumothorax (collapsed lung) 2 years ago, I've been especially careful. I'd just hate to see someone's enjoyment of this fine hobby jeapordized by fear. Education is the key here, I guess.

Red Baron:
Be careful when cutting carbon rods. To avoid generating dust, wrap the rod with tape at the point you want to cut. Lay a moistened paper towel under the rod on your cutting surface. Then cut the rod with a single edged razor blade by rolling the rod back and forth under the pressure of the blade. This may take several full rotations, but the dust generation will be quite minimal, and very controlable.

Enjoy.

http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

David

[jimbarstow]

Originally posted by davidfee:
BTW Jim, I'm on your side. I'm a chemist also

What kind of chemistry do you do?
I got an undergrad degree then a phd in synthetic organic. Since getting my phd though I've only done computer science. I loved the chemistry but realized a life in the lab would be torture.

[DEATHspiral]

To minimize carbon fiber dust, use a pair of dikes and cut the rod. It's alot easier than sawing and takes like 2seconds. SNAP. CRACKLE. and POP.

A little bit of carbon fiber dust isn't going to kill you. Just like anything, too much of something is bad, too much salt, you get high blood pressure... you get the gist.

[davidfee]

Well, being an undergrad, I do the kind of chemistry that they tell me to do. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif My research/career interests lay (lie?) in polymers/materials. Basically, industrial stuff like plastics and adhesives are most interesting to me. Epoxy is a passion for me. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif Like you, I'm not crazy about the idea of spending my life in a lab, so I might be kind of stuck. I just wish I could get more excited about organic synthesis. Maybe I just had boring organic profs? http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif

Sorry this has drifted so far off topic...

[Mighty Mik]

Originally posted by Red Baron 47:
I'm such a beginner I haven't even cut a CF rod yet. I hear a Dremel cut off wheel is best. That makes dust. I was going to do it in the basement, but that's a pain since my building area is on the first floor. I thought of doing it in a cardboard box. Maybe it's heavy enough to not blow out. Then I thought of putting an old Dust Buster in there and directing the cuttings into that. If the bag isn't fine enough that would make matters worse by blowing the dust around.

I used to sand fiberglass and itched for days afterward.

What do you folk do?

Thanks,
RB


My supplier told me that CF dust can be bad news to your lungs, and you should wear a mask when cutting it.

[Red Baron 47]

Thanks all! I cut my rod. It's 0.04" dia. I tried the "roll under a razor blade and snap it" technique. It gave a nice, clean break. I cut a piece with some dykes and it was a bit squashed, but ok. A squeeze with some pliers will round it. After the rod is in place, you can't roll it with a razor blade and I'd rather cut and fit than measure. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/wink.gif

Those techniques won't work with larger stuff. I'll just cut slow and trap the shavings. The worry about electronics is important. Even if you don't care about your health, keep your computer happy. If you have hot air heat/air and no electronic filter, the dust goes all over the house.

RB

[Crete1]

Originally posted by jimbarstow:
I have very little scientific info to back this up but my background is as a chemist.

Asbestos causes problems in the lungs primarily through mechanical means; it doesn't react chemically. I would be concerned that carbon fiber might act in the same fashion. There is NO safe level of asbestos exposure. Keep in mind that it took decades to discover the problems with asbestos.

I never cut carbon fiber with a saw, I hack
at it with blade and wear a respirator. This is one case where it may pay to be extra careful.

Hello,

This fellow has a good point. You do not want to inhale fine particle dust. Anything smaller than 5 microns can settle into your lungs and not be expelled. Particulate matter as small as 2.5 microns can get into the smallest regions of your lungs and not be expelled. Granted you'll have to suck up alot of this stuff to have some problems, but we have a lifetime exposure to multiple sources of particulate matter. So what inhale more than necessary?

A dust mask will cut your intake significantly. Make sure you have a tight fit around your mouth and nose.. If you can say the word "Rainbow" and not have the mask move on your face you have a good fit. Otherwise if you form a gap, the fit is not snug enough to work with.

Keeping your work area wet is also an excellent idea. This keeps dust from getting airborn. What's worse is it's the dust you can't see that's the problem. The dust you do see can be moved out by your mucocilliary tract easily... And since CF is not something the body can use white blood cells to dissolve you won't be able to "eat" it. I'll save you the whole procells of potential cancer, ect... Just be CAREFUL and use some COMMON SENSE. I wouldn't worry that much about it. Not like your working in a CF or asbestos factory. http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif


Ok, enough from me. I just got my interest peaked, and since I have a Bachelors in this area I tend to get excited.

(Heh.. My education was good for something.... http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif Wow... )



[This message has been edited by Crete1 (edited 05-19-2001).]

[Phil G]

Well, I have a different perspective:

Carbon fiber BY ITSELF is largely inert in the body. I learned more about it than I wanted to when I had a severed tendon in my left hand (middle extensor).

I'll carry a piece of CF with me as long as I live and play Sax...

The danger is more in the plastic/epoxy binding than the CF itself.

I started gluing models together over 30 years ago and have always made sure to have a fan blowing the fumes/dust/whatever away from me.

I paint R/C bodies and full scale car parts (haven't painted a whole car yet, but check back with me)...

I use a Wilson NIOSH/IMSHA-rated mask that is good for everything but NBC when I'm painting or using solvents.

They cost more than a couple boxes of paper masks, but I like my lungs (rather attached to them)...

You cannot go wrong with one of these or it's equivalent.

Good ventilation is the key after that. One trick I use is a scale paint booth made out of a cardboard box about 3'x3'x3' attached to a shopvac with it's exhaust piped outside.

I cut CF with a dremel abrasive disc (tubes are harder to cut) and make sure the dust is thrown away from me (old machinist habit, learned it from an old machinist, my Granddad)...

Reminds me I need a couple of fresh cartridges for "The Mask"...

http://www.ezonemag.com/disc/smile.gif