Breeze F3P

[racerxky]

Here are the plans for my new Airplane. I haven't built one yet (I just finished with the plans) but will try to get it done this week. But in the spirit of release early and release often the plans are now available"

Breeze F3P Plans Page (http://waves.ky/breeze/)

The plans are made available under a Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org) license. So whats the deal with that? Well when you publish something in the US you automatically get copyright to it. This stops people from legally building on your work. The license lets you make modification to the plans as you see fit. You can go into business selling kits if you like. All that without ever asking me permission. All the license requires you to do in return is to make your derivative plans available under the same license.

This is version 0.1 so its likely got some issues and will need fixing. I am not a Aeronautical Engineer so I make no guarantees about exactly how it will fly. That said it should be in the ballpark.

[racerxky]

Here is a pic of the plans:

[racerxky]

Cut away of the nose section showing construction detail:

[matchlessaero]

Very nice drawings Racer!

[racerxky]

Thanks!

I did it all in Sketchup. Mad props to Sketchup, its so easy to use. I always wanted to design airplanes as a kid but didn't have any kind of CAD software so this rules.

Specs:
Length: 920 mm
Span: 862 mm
Wing Area: 29.76 dm²
Side Area: 14.28 dm²
Aspect Ratio (S²/A): 4.99
Target Weight: 180g
Wing Loading: 6.0 g/dm²

Direct plan links for the lazy:

PDF (http://www.waves.ky/breeze/Breeze%20F3P%20v0.1/Breeze%20F3P%20-%20Full%20Size.pdf)
Sketchup (http://www.waves.ky/breeze/Breeze%20F3P%20v0.1/Breeze%20F3P.skp)
DXF (http://www.waves.ky/breeze/Breeze%20F3P%20v0.1/Breeze%20F3P.dxf)

[3dflyindan]

looks a babe mate the only problem i think is the rudder is a ilttle bit too tall maybe gettin rid of some of the top of the vertical stabe and then replacing with rudder thus shortening the rudder will make it look tonnes better.

apart from that i really like it i recently designed my own little F3A / F3P pattern plane and im hoping to build 5 of them this week :O and then test them to hell like you will to the Breeze ! ! ! ! :D

well done mate

dan

[3dflyindan]

my own design plans below

dan

[racerxky]

Thanks very much. Your plan looks sharp too.

I made the rudder tall on purpose. The Troll had some nasty yaw-roll coupling; applying rudder caused the airplane to roll into the turn. I needed a lot of opposite aileron to compensate. I just used the 'looks right flies right' method and made sure the elevator area was slightly larger than the rudder.

If I get the opposite coupling then I'll just chop the rudder down until it goes away and change the plans accordingly. Wont know till I get one built.

[3dflyindan]

oki doki i was just saying wat the only thing i thought looked weird was :D

when you building yours ? whats the best motor on the market i would be able to get either in the U.K or shipped? i have a 20g cd-rom motor and i run that on a 8*4.3 at 6amps is that pretty good ?

dan

[racerxky]

Hey, the whole point of an open process is to get feedback so this is good.

20g is a good weight for the motor. I will be using an Axi 2204/54 which weighs 26g with integrated motor mount and prop saver. I wouldn't go any heavier than that. I believe the Axi motors come from that side of the pond as do the Cyclones and the MicroRex motors. Lots of good choices over there some weigh as little as 12g. Look for a battery that weighs about as much as your motor. My web page (http://waves.ky/2006/06/10/breeze-f3p/) has most of this info on it already. Also look in this forum there are good discussions on motors, batteries, servos etc.

I'm cutting mine up as we speak.

If anyone has a good way of producing tiled plans from that PDF please let me know. It would be a big plus if it was free software.

[3dflyindan]

cool

post some pics please as you go :D

dan

[Mister UHU]

If anyone has a good way of producing tiled plans from that PDF
please let me know. It would be a big plus if it was free software.

I don't know the proper way to do it,
but my printer software allows me to do tiles.

That cut-away drawing is super, great work.

[racerxky]

PDF
I can print tiles from Adobe Illustrator but I would need the PDF distiller to create a PDF from that in paged format. I don't own either of those programs. Also this method wont get you the alignment marks that makes it easy to put the pages back together. At least with the large format PDF you can go to a print shop and get a plan printed. I have seen some very nifty tiled plans with alignment marks, like the Troll plans have.

Tail Surfaces
After doing the cut outs the tail surfaces do look a bit on the small side. There should be a formula that relates the size of the moveable tail surfaces to the wing area and distance from the surface hinge line to the CG. There is probably a rule of thumb that goes along with this about what the ratio is for 3D aircraft.

Something like this (http://www.eaa62.org/technotes/tail.htm). Not sure what volume coeficient I should aim for though. Any suggestions?

Pictures
Im on it, my ISP crapped out my upload last night so I will try again tonight.

[3dflyindan]

so racerxky any pics yet :D

dan

[racerxky]

Got the parts cut out and started in on the fuse assembly. I'm taking my time with this one.

Did the math for the Tail Volume Coefficient. The surfaces are a bit small but not that bad. I got it fixed in the plan. Also the servo tray needs to be a bit higher up to clear the landing gear blocks. Fixed that too.

She is BIG, probably too big for the gym we fly in.

[Petr Chyska]

Got the parts cut out and started in on the fuse assembly. I'm taking my time with this one.

Did the math for the Tail Volume Coefficient. The surfaces are a bit small but not that bad. I got it fixed in the plan. Also the servo tray needs to be a bit higher up to clear the landing gear blocks. Fixed that too.

She is BIG, probably too big for the gym we fly in.

Looks well !! :)

[racerxky]

Construction is going slow. Im busy with other stuff (life, work, moving). The fuse is together and the wing spars are in.

I got the green pins at Hobby-Lobby. I have big hands and they are easy to grip. Putting them in at an angle makes sure the pices dont come apart while they are drying.

[j_z_123]

Looks good! What type of glue are you using?

-Jon

[racerxky]

Formula '560' Canopy glue. It goes by a bunch of names, look for something white with '56' in the name. Very tenacious stuff but it takes 3 hours to dry.

I used medium thick CA when I get impatient, like tonight :D

[3dflyindan]

looks nice man well done what else you got left to do ?

dan

[racerxky]

well lets see, making a list could be usefull...


Bevel and Hinge the tail feathers.
Cut and mount the follow rods to link the ailerons
Put control Horns on all the surfaces
Mount the two remaining servos
Do the pull-pull on the rudder and the elevator
Make the carbon/heatshrink pushrods for the ailerons and mount those
Make and install Landing Gear
Solder the connector for the motor
Mount the motor
Connect the receiver and ESC
Find some way to mount the battery (whenever it shows up)
Guess at the CG and balance. (I could calculate it... if I get bored)
Oh and try out my new air brush


OK so that lot wont get done till next week. Its all the little setup stuff that realy eats your time up. Time to fix the damage to the Troll and go flying tonight.

-- Right now I'd rather be flying!

[racerxky]

I did the maiden over in Fairhope AL at a night time electric fly-in they had up there. Thanks to everyone who was there and for all the compliments. Good times and good flying!

I am really shocked this thing flies so well! Its very close to the sweet spot for F3P. It flies slow, tracks very well and goes where you point it. Slow rolls only need minor rudder corrections to be perfectly axial. Flat rudder turns only need a hint of aileron correction and it looks like its a control line model. No real tendency to drop a wing or pitch down hard like the Troll.

The roll rate is insane. Even at low speeds its responsive to roll input. You could get three rolls in the length of a basketball court. This works well in slow downlines and the quick roll in the triangle loop.

Knife edge is a cakewalk. The transition is smooth and it doesn't really need any extra power, just a little rudder to keep the nose up. It will do high alpha KE at low speeds and you can transition to vertical easily. KE loops are possible. Rolling circles are fun! It wants to roll out of the knife edge to level. This is probably due to the roll axis balance in my setup. This way it gives you a nice safe felling that a botched KE will just result in level flight.

It hovers very easily and can do the torque roll without a problem. The elevator response in harrier could be better. The elevator is working well for all the pattern maneuvers so I don't want to mess with it yet.

Overall I am very happy with the way it flies right now. Its so dialed in that I wont change the plans again until I get some feedback from people building them. I had at least two people get the URL for the plans after they saw it fly. One guy actually said it was the best flying foamy he had ever seen.

BDavidson got some stick time with it and shot some video I'll get that up as soon as I'm able.

[Mister UHU]

Photos please.

[Bryan Davison]

Pics and vid are coming soon. REAL SOON. I got them uploaded...doing the final video now.

The video is just a short clip I shot with my still camera. but I got some good pics of the night flying.

The plane is incredible. I actually made it all the way through the F3Ai sequence with it. It wasnt QQ smooth, but it look WAY better than my previous attempts. Its a precision plane for sure. I like it better than the troll or my Hypnosis. Im gonna build one for sure. Everybody that saw it fly was pretty much in awe.

[Bryan Davison]

Here are the pics!!!!

[Bryan Davison]

Here is the vid...
There's not much, but like I said I shot it with the still camera. You can get the general idea. It flys super slow, and is rock solid stable. racer was flying it while there was a combat foray to his right. Needless to say, this plane wouldn't stand a chance in a combat flight...so he was being EXTRA careful.

BreezeF3A (http://media.putfile.com/BreezeF3A)

[Trisquire]

Nice work guys.

Tom

[racerxky]

Thanks Trinsquire.

I think I got all the links fixed, sorry about breaking them earlier. I will get some pics up of the build details later today. I finished in a rush so I didn't take photos as I went.

[matchlessaero]

Nice job on the new bird Racer. Looks very smooth in the air!

[racerxky]

I put some photos up on Flickr. Here is a link (http://www.flickr.com/photos/garethky/sets/72157594171401056/) to the photoset.

Matchless I wish my flying was as smooth. I have a long way to go before I can fly like you. At least now I have a good airplane to practice with.

A little info on my setup. Thats a GWS 9x5 Direct Drive prop. Throws were all set at 100 (The spektrum goes up to 125) and expo was at 60 for the elevator and ailerons. The model weighs 180g without battery. Toss in the 30g vampower pack and its all up weight is 210g.

I wound up using blind nuts and metal hex head bolts to mount the motor. I got them lined up and then tacked them in with CA. The nuts and bolts add 2g but also a lot of convenience. You can mount/unmount the motor from the front and shim it to adjust the thrust angle.

I'll be flying this one for a while before I get v0.3 out. 0.3 will probably shrink the ailerons slightly and increase the elevator surface area (but not change the stab). I can test the larger elevator without a re-build but I need more Depron and that will have to wait for a few weeks while I move to OKC. And that isn't to say that you should hold off building one either. Its already very dialed in and easily bests the Troll in performance and handling. Its really fun to fly and you don't get that nervous feeling like the airplane is about to betray you.

Also I want to mess with using some EPP foam in the nose area. Maybe just the firewall and belly. This would toughen up the most vulnerable parts and make it a bit more crash proof. I have an all EPP E-Foamies Extra (http://www.rcgroups.com/links/index.php?id=5002) on the way to test out :D

[matchlessaero]

that will have to wait for a few weeks while I move to OKC.

You're moving to OKC? They have a great Armory that they fly in regularly there (I competed in it this past winter). You will have a great time in that facility!!!

[Mister UHU]

Thanks for the pics.

Q: carbon wing spars ;
on top of the foam ? OR cut into the foam ?

[racerxky]

matchlessaero,
I have seen pics of the armory, it looks huge! I can't seem to find any information about it online though. Guess I'll hit up the local hobby shop when I get there to figure that out.

Mister UHU,
Its 1mm x 3mm flat carbon put edge on right through the depron. I just cut a 1mm slot in the wings. Then get lots of glue on the carbon and fit it in there. I tape it in about 3 places just to keep the joint tight. When its dry I take the tape off.

[Bryan Davison]

I got to tell you guys. Racer put a lot of thought in to set up on the Breeze.
Every little piece on the plane is positioned for maximum effectiveness, and ease of adjustment. Nothing on the plane was just tossed on there. Every little piece got put there for a specific reason and anything that didnt make it fly better or provide a critical role...was left off.

It is without a doubt one of the finest foamies Ive ever seen or flown.

Racer, we should get some video of it flying the F3Ai sequence....that way everyone can laugh at my attempt. :D

Im bringing the Charger Cr-2 tonight so you can see it fly. Ill bring the camera if you want to try it.

[RV6-A]

racerxky, Do a search for OKC Indoor, lots of info . Great vid!

[Trisquire]

I see a Breeze in my future.

Doesn't Sean McMurtry live in OKC? I would touch base with Greg Ward too. He makes Reflections for Team Futaba. Not the Flatouts. The original Reflections.

Tom

[racerxky]

Thanks for the info. I lookd back in RC Groups and it looks like there was an indoor free flight club that meet there once a month but those posts date back to like 2002. Hopefully they meet more often now ;). Perhaps Jeff, the guy that organized OKC 3D will know.

I flew the Breeze indoors last night for just a little bit. I went to make a trim adjustment and looked down for a split second and when I looked back up it crashed nose first into the deck. Doh!

So the motor broke the depron firewall in a neat ring right around where the plywod plate is. I CA'd it back on and flew some more. In a high power climb out the motor ejected spectacularly. AXI Power! :D

I'm pretty fed up with this. The Landing gear I made are bullet proof so I don't see why I cant come up with something for the motor mount. My idea is to use a large block of EPP. Somehting to fill up the whole firewall/chin area. Basically a block 5cm x 8cm x 8cm tapered and cut to fir the nose.

This is going to have two functions. First is obvious, its the firewall. Second is the battery holder. A slot cut lendthways in the block will hold the battery without the need for velcro.

A block that big would weigh about 5-6g. With velcro being kinda heavy you probably are only looking at 4g of extra weight. And lets face it if the airplane is constantly broken I can't practice. Im not good enough yet to be that concerned about 4g. You can always just not use it in your competition airplane. you could even tape it in and use a depron firewall in the same airplane later.

Now if I could just score a block of EPP before thursday...

[matchlessaero]

Hey Racer, I think the guy who organized the OKC 3D event was Jim Flood. I don't remember his RCG name though........ That might help a bit. I'm pretty sure McMurtry's father runs a hobbyshop there in OKC called Mike's models. I hope this info helps.

Frankly, I'm hoping to attend the OKC 3D again this coming year (I did pretty well there last year....)

On your firewall problem.... the solution is simple.... Stop crashing! LOL (I wish I could follow that simple solution). On a more serious note, you may want to create a firewall that 'keys' into the top and sides of the fuse. You could then have some 2mm or 3mm doublers on the inside of the fuse sides and top where the firewall piece keys in. The firewall I'm envisioning looks a bit like a plus sign.

[Pistolera]

On my Equalizer, I needed to get the Rimfire motor further forward. I used 4 squares of 3mm depron sandwiched together to act as a spacer to move the 1/16" ply motor mount plate further foward. I drilled lightning/airflow holes through this "block" before I CA'd it into the fuse. I didn't weigh it but it seemed very light and has stood up in 2 (so far :rolleyes: ) nose-ins in short grass.

BTW - nice looking bipe, looks very similar to the EQ.....Earle

[racerxky]

On your firewall problem.... the solution is simple.... Stop crashing! LOL (I wish I could follow that simple solution). On a more serious note, you may want to create a firewall that 'keys' into the top and sides of the fuse. You could then have some 2mm or 3mm doublers on the inside of the fuse sides and top where the firewall piece keys in. The firewall I'm envisioning looks a bit like a plus sign.

Yea, I accept that crashing is learning like rubbing is racing.

I have thought about that. I tried some 6mm fuse doublers on the Troll to give the firewall more area to sit on. It did work for the few flights I had them on there. The firewall is still going to break in a moderate crash. Depron has such high tensile strength but it fails when you push it beyond that, EPP just bends.

Besides, I just scored some EPP from a computer packing crate at work ;)

[racerxky]

... I didn't weigh it but it seemed very light and has stood up in 2 (so far :rolleyes: ) nose-ins in short grass.

BTW - nice looking bipe, looks very similar to the EQ.....Earle

Thanks!

When i maidened the Breeze it was over a grass football field. I ran about 5 packs through the airplane and it landed several times per pack. They were all nose-in because the landing gear caught in the grass. That was on a single 3mm sheet firewall. It took just one mishap in the gym to break it.

3 stacked together is pretty strong and resists flexing/breaking. Something like that just passes the crash energy along to the next component and that breaks. Then you beef that part up and so on. EPP can absorb some energy, like bringing the grass withthe airplane. Anyway I will let you all know how it worked on later this week.

[matchlessaero]

I left an important detail out of my description above...... Make the firewall from 1/16 aircraft ply. All the firewalls on my competition planes of similar size and power to your Breeze use a 1/16" ply firewall. You will not likely break the firewall, and if you key it into the fuse sides and put a 3mm depron 'doubler' behind it to increase glue area, you will have a strong setup that will last, but won't add much weight....

[racerxky]

I'll buy that, sounds very secure. The doublers are critical, a stronger firewall alone wont work.

[racerxky]

The foam I got is EPP 'open cell' (at least thats what i think it is). Its commonly used to pack computer parts. Its spongy but moved back into shape and you can't crush it with your bare hands. Its got cells that are hollow inside. If you went dumpster diving behind a CompUSA or a Best Buy you could probably find some there. Or maybe you can bribe the IT guy at your office with Mountain Dew? :cool:

The airplane gained 2 grams with this setup so if it works well its a no brainer. I used UHU Styrofoam for all the joints and the firewall.

[Mister UHU]

"CG but you would need a l.........."

Ran out of space !

l = longer ?, piece of EPP ??


EPP nose is a solution used on some other models.

A few more tweeks and you'll be there.

V2 should be competitive with kits etc, good work.

[racerxky]

l = longer ?, piece of EPP ??


You got it. EPP needs to be about as thich as the battery is wide. Longways would weigh more and its already heavy. I gotta get some lighter packs.

[Trisquire]

On the Knuffel, the whole fuselage forward of the wing is EPP. It's not a full fuselage plane. It's the old "+" configuration.

Tom

[racerxky]

Most of the broken airplanes we see here are nose/firewall related so it makes sense. Maybe you could do the front of a box fuse all in EPP.

When I was a kid I had a couple of free flight gliders with spongy noses. They held up well till the roof ate them ;)

[Bryan Davison]

Hey racer...

I just bought the Radix 3D from Ultrafly.
Something interesting...
1. It very much resembles a F3Ai type design
2. It is almost entirely 1.3mm depron.

Im not sure where they found 1.3mm depron, but this thing is capable of being REALLY light.
Ill weigh the foam and let you know what it weighs. Should be a pretty nice foamy. Built up fuselage, and all that.

[Trisquire]

Frank Noll was flying one of those at last year's JR Festival. I was impressed. Nice slow rolling harriers.

Tom

[racerxky]

Got some flying and crashing in last night. First the crashing... the first crash I had her inverted and tried to pull out. No dice, it hit the floor head on and the nose broke off the airplane, intact. Basically that hole chunk with the EPP stayed together and it broke off behind there. I thought it was the end of my night but some CA and a few scraps of Depron to strengthen things and it was back up in the air. Without the EPP that crash would have totaled the airplane.

The second crash was an 'oops'. Again I hit the nose but not nearly as hard. No damage tot he nose but the fuse cracked 1/2 way between the wing and the tail. Now thats progress. Thats a long way to transmit the crash energy.

Now to the flying. I just flew areound after the first crash. Did a few loops, rolls and some knife edge. The loops were a little hairy. It used about 2/3 of the vertical space in the gym at full stick deflection. So the elevator is adequate but has nothing in reserve. the elevator needs to be re-designed, again.

I was having issues with the DD props vibrating on the AXI. I guess I need to use one o the little washer things that came with the motor. I need to mess with other props too, it flies well on the 9x5DD and the 9x4.7SF. Gonna try some 8" props next time.

I wish I could make them lighter. I really need to cut 20g from the build. The tail section needs to be stiffer too. Tension fromt he pull-pull elevator can bend the fuse and mess with the rudder trim.

Lots to work on when I build the next one.

[matchlessaero]

Racer, when I saw the plans, I felt the elevator/horizontal were a bit small..... While it may sound extreme, I would suggest doubling the size of them(yes double them). I think you will see an increase in pitch ability, and possibly a more stable knife edge as well (not that it needs that).

Prop wise, you may want to try an APC 8x3.8. That has been the 'magic prop' for me when using the baby Axi.

[racerxky]

What about the vertical position of the elevator? Right now its dead on the thrust line. I think I have seen them a bit lower than that but I dont know what that affects.

[Trisquire]

It sounds like the wings are holding up. I wonder if Newbies like me should have the CF spar along the leading edge instead of embedded in the middle?

Tom

[Bryan Davison]

I gotta say, all of my previous planes had the spar on the leading edge until recently. It works MUCH MUCH better embedded. One embedded spar will do the work of a leading and trailing edge spar. As far as durability. I dont think Ive ever snapped a wing with one spar, but I broke plenty of them with the leading edge spar. Never thought about that till now...hmmm...interesting.

My biggest problem is the motors coming off in flight. For some reason lately, my motors have been ripping off the front of the plane in mid-flight. Its driving me nuts. Ive tried every motor mount you could think of. So far the best option is still a ply mount with the motor mounted in front, and CA'd to the nose. Everytime I mount a motor behind the firewall...it rips off.

[Bryan Davison]

Hey racer....I got some fantastic video of you killing the nose. WHEEEEEE...KAPOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

I'll see if I can get it uploaded.

[matchlessaero]

What about the vertical position of the elevator? Right now its dead on the thrust line. I think I have seen them a bit lower than that but I dont know what that affects

Racer, I don't think I would move the Horiz up or down, unless the thrust line is not centered in between the wings. Moving it up and down will primarily affect coupling while in Knife Edge.....

As for the spars, aerodyamically and structurally, it makes the most sense to mount it on the MAC of the wing. I put it there on the Sentinel and have had absolutely no issues. On larger foamies, I tend to put a spar on the leading edge but I am partially looking for the protection benefit I get from mounting it there (in addition to the stiffness it creates)

Bryan, on your motors that are coming off, are you talking about a box fused airplane, or a shocky style? If its a shocky style, you need to put a 2" carbon tube of 1/4" or greater diameter in the back of the mount. I drill the mount and epoxy in the tube from the rear. The propshaft stub slides into the tube (make sure there is no rubbing) and the tube and firewall assembly get glued into the fuse. I've never had a motor come off with this setup.

[Bryan Davison]

Yeah, Im talking about the boxed in fuselages. Racer has experienced this too. It seems like on high G maneuvers it just pulls the mount right out of the plane. Its really annoying.

[Trisquire]

Thanks for the feedback on wing spars. matchlessaero - I was actually referring to the protection benefit of a leading edge spar. The strongest part of my Shockflyer was the wing with the CF on the leading and trailing edges. Shockflyers are practically over engineered in that respect. After everything else was worn out from crashes, the CF encased wing was still intact.

Tom

[matchlessaero]

Thanks for clarifying that Bryan. In that case, you really have to go to a 1/16" aircraft ply firewall that is keyed into fuselage sides that are doubled on the inside. That way, the firewall has a tongue that is glued into a 6mm thick wall on at least 3 of the 4 sides of the box. Build it that way, and it will not be coming out anytime soon.....

Trisquire, I've actually cut the tail off of a 14oz foamy I midaired with the carbon leading edge of one of my Kestrel foamies. You are right it is a very strong design. Its no wonder myself and so many others have copied it.....

[racerxky]

I think my problems are more crash related or bad fix related. But yea the nose is the first thing to break. With mine the impact tends to break the firewall and/or break the fuse sides in the nose. And... I... crash... a... lot!

Mid-wing spars work great. Kevlar thread works well too. Infact I think the thread keeps it so stiff that the carbon is just along for the ride. Maybe you dont need it. I dont see it anywhere on the Aito or the Phaser and they use kevlar thread bracing.

EPP Firewall. Nuff said.

[Pistolera]

..................
Mid-wing spars work great. Kevlar thread works well too. Infact I think the thread keeps it so stiff that the carbon is just along for the ride. Maybe you dont need it. I dont see it anywhere on the Aito or the Phaser and they use kevlar thread bracing.

EPP Firewall. Nuff said.

You know, I've often thought that a properly thread-braced biplane would need very little, if any carbon fiber in the wings, or at least one could go to a smaller diameter CF rod or flat to add any additional stiffness. I suppose without any it would be easy to pull bends or bows into the wing structure....Earle

[Trisquire]

Greg Ward puts his Reflections in a jig and then runs all the wing bracing in one continuous loop.

Tom

Here is a close-up:

[racerxky]

Cutting out those spars would save about 4-5g. Man that is sad, didnt I say somewhere that it wasn't worth leaving them out because it was so light? So anyway thats somehting to test.

If you look at the Manta its got a small depron doubler on the leading edge, does a similar job as the carbon spar. So thats something to try too.

[Trisquire]

If you look at the Manta its got a small depron doubler on the leading edge, does a similar job as the carbon spar. So thats something to try too.

The leading edge thickness makes the plane more docile.

Tom

[racerxky]

The leading edge thickness makes the plane more docile.

Tom

Docile is good. Is that what it is for? :confused: They have it on the elevator too. Maybe they are using somehting thinner than 3mm depron?

See pics:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5655324&postcount=9

[Trisquire]

I've seen photos of this on European websites. Thickening the leading edge makes the plane think that the wing has an airfoil.

My guess is that the whole plane is 3mm Depron.


Tom

[matchlessaero]

Ya'll beat me to it!!!!! I noticed that LE doubler on the Manta some time ago and have designed it into the Sentinel V2... Just have not built it yet. I may graft it onto my existing airframe...

[racerxky]

I was suspicious about the doublers from earlier photos but could not be sure. With the paint its hard to tell. Also looking again at the names of image files one is the top and the other is the bottom. So the doublers are on both sides, not just the top. It is a beautiful little aeroplane, Mamo must have a great designer.

[Jerry Combs]

You know, I've often thought that a properly thread-braced biplane would need very little, if any carbon fiber in the wings, or at least one could go to a smaller diameter CF rod or flat to add any additional stiffness. I suppose without any it would be easy to pull bends or bows into the wing structure....Earle

Earle,

I have been building my Bipes without any carbon except for the pushrods and landing gear. They seem to hold up fine, at least as long as I am flying them and not crashing. :D

Jerry

[Aio_1]

I believe the Manta is designed by Martin Mueller, same guy who designed the original Shockfliers. I think there's a little "MM" on the paint schemes!
I tried the thickened leading edge on my design (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491225&page=2&pp=15) but for various reasons I haven't gotten around to testing it yet :o .

Aidan

[whopper]

racerxky, hows the developement of the Breeze coming along?

I am looking at a Breeze for a first F3A-i model and was wondering what mods you would make compared to the plans you posted.

Not too worried about structural mods (I've read the thread and know what needs to be done in that respect), but more any aerodynamic/outline mods (I think you were unhappy with the elevator response indoors?).

Any suggestions would be much appreciated before I start to cut foam.

Many thanks,

Matt.

[racerxky]

Its been too hot here in Oklahoma for indoor flying (the venue has no A/C). So F3P development is on hold while I do a couple of other project. I'm building Quicker's new O2 and an OMP Fusion after that.

I actually have a list of things I want to do to the Breeze Plans:


Larger Elevator. This is the biggest aerodynamic problem on the current plans. It needs to be approx 20% larger. The Stab could shrink to accommodate this.
Re-worked elevator/rudder clearance for 50+ degrees of rudder travel. This is a screw up in the plans right now and they bind a bit.
Enlarge or eliminate tab on rudder. I see some designed getting on fine without it and right now it does about squat. Aerodynamic advantage tabs need to be about 20% of the surface's area to be effective.
Extended Turtle Deck so it goes to tail for stiffness like the Donuts Models designs.


That stuff wouldn't take long to do and I could put out a new copy of the plans for you if you would like.

My next design will be mostly EPP so I think it will be a monoplane. I will have plans out for that sometime later this year. Right now its just a twinkle in my eye.

[whopper]

Its been too hot here in Oklahoma for indoor flying (the venue has no A/C). So F3P development is on hold while I do a couple of other project. I'm building Quicker's new O2 and an OMP Fusion after that.

I actually have a list of things I want to do to the Breeze Plans:


Larger Elevator. This is the biggest aerodynamic problem on the current plans. It needs to be approx 20% larger. The Stab could shrink to accommodate this.
Re-worked elevator/rudder clearance for 50+ degrees of rudder travel. This is a screw up in the plans right now and they bind a bit.
Enlarge or eliminate tab on rudder. I see some designed getting on fine without it and right now it does about squat. Aerodynamic advantage tabs need to be about 20% of the surface's area to be effective.
Extended Turtle Deck so it goes to tail for stiffness like the Donuts Models designs.


That stuff wouldn't take long to do and I could put out a new copy of the plans for you if you would like.

My next design will be mostly EPP so I think it will be a monoplane. I will have plans out for that sometime later this year. Right now its just a twinkle in my eye.

I would really appreciate you posting a revised set of plans (any chance of tiling them while you're at it??) so I can see what you are thinking, since you are the one with all the R&D on the design at the moment.

I'd be glad to continue the developement (I've flown Pattern, Pylon, 3D and choppers so I can push the sticks about ok ;) ) and the flying weather here at the moment (had a GREAT day yesterday!) is perfect. :D :D

I'll be running a CCDR Cool Wind Single BB, 9x5, TP480 2s, T-Bird 9, GWS Pico BB servos and a lightened JR610 Rx (just until the Berg 4L is available on 36 Mhz). Hoping for ~12 oz thrust.

Does this seem like a reasonable setup? :confused: I know I could go lighter on the motor but I really like the fact I can use this one on 3 cells as well. A dedicated F3A-i setup may follow but for the moment this seemed like a fair compromise. Also, the really light gear ends up being BIG $$$$$ by the time it gets down here (its hard explaining to the girlfriend why paying Au$150-180 for a motor that is so small that it can get lost in the shag pile carpet is a great deal!! :eek: :censored: :censored: )

I'll be getting some 3mm Depron and a bundle of carbon today so as soon as I have a final design I'm ready to make some foam fly! :D

Matt.

[racerxky]

ok, I will work on getting new plans posted by Thursday. Tiling, I wish. I have looked everywhere and I don't see a program what will let me tile the plans for free. If anyone knows a way to tile either DXF or PDF then let me know and I will do it.

My prototype on a similar setup weighed in at 210g, thats about 7.4oz. With 12 oz of thrust you should be good. I know what you mean about costs. I would like to keep things cheap so that young people can have a chance to get into this.

[whopper]

Sounds great racer.

I would prefer a pdf as I'm too tight to spend money on any CAD software to read the DXF file..... :rolleyes:

Untiled is all good, I'll just go get them printed out.

Thanks for all your work on this racer, can't wait to get one in the air! :D

Matt.

[whopper]

racer, I was thinking :rolleyes: , to stiffen up the fuselage what about an Equalizer type horizontal former that ties the stab to the firewall along the thrust line?

This would negate the need to figure out an upper, rear turtle deck and would provide stiffness along the plane that is distorted by the elevator closed loop (which I prefer to a push-rod).

Food for thought maybe?

[racerxky]

Thats the other option. The servo tray would be extended aft. I'll know what to do when I look at the plans tomorrow. I don't like extending this to the firewall because it makes it hard to place radio gear and such. This is how the Troll is designed as well with a 6mm keel.

[whopper]

I was thinking all 3mm but good call on the radio install :) , particularly the elevator servo if you want to run closed loop. Which I do.....

Maybe just from the servo tray back if the elevator servo was mounted forward of the rudder servo (I like the central position, once again good for closed loop), and the rudder servo was moved slightly rearward to compensate. If that makes sense.... :confused: :rolleyes:

[racerxky]

I was thinking all 3mm but good call on the radio install :) , particularly the elevator servo if you want to run closed loop. Which I do.....

Maybe just from the servo tray back if the elevator servo was mounted forward of the rudder servo (I like the central position, once again good for closed loop), and the rudder servo was moved slightly rearward to compensate. If that makes sense.... :confused: :rolleyes:

I'm sticking with 3mm. I want it to use as few materials as possible so it can be scratch built easily.

The servos need to stay pretty far forward to balance the tail. You can put the servo farther back if you want. Just remember if you go too far back you wont be able to get at it. I like to be able to reach things just in case.

I'll keep the keel/servo tray just a little bit lower that the elevator to clear the servo body for the elevator pull-pull servo. I hate it when you have to hack into a keel to put in a servo.

I'm going to add notches/tabs to the fuse parts so they line up easier. I had resisted this because its more work to cut them out. But now I'm getting better at cutting and also I think we could change the order of construction if the parts self aligned:


Fist put the fuse sides on the keel.
Then add the nose parts and floor.
Then do the tail so you have full access to the rudder/elevator servos when you set that up.
Do your radio install and motor install and check everything.
Last add the wings and fore deck to close her up.

[racerxky]

Here is a shot of the changes in progress. You can see that there is room to put both the rudder servo and the elevator servo without interferance. The rudder servo should mount far enough forward that you can get to it in case you have to change the pull-pull thread. You can also see some of the tab/slot interlocking parts stuff. they are totally optionaland you can just ignore them when you cut if you dont want to do the extra knife work. I might get this finished tonight if things go smoothly.

If anyone knows of a way I can produce PDF tiled plans, with free software, please let me know.

[whopper]

That look GREAT racer, and I think the tabs are a good idea. Might be a little more cutting but makes it easy to dry assemble things to check alignment etc.

Can't wait to see the final plans!

[Azarr]

Greg Ward puts his Reflections in a jig and then runs all the wing bracing in one continuous loop.

Tom

Here is a close-up:

Is it actually possible to buy these? I've seen a few of Greg's Reflections (Havoc) and they fly nothing like the GP kit.

Azarr
www.ecubedrc.com

[matchlessaero]

Is it actually possible to buy these? I've seen a few of Greg's Reflections (Havoc) and they fly nothing like the GP kit.

If you are Sean McMurtry, then I guess you can : )

[racerxky]

I saw Sean at the hobby shop yesterday. I dont think he knows who I am though ;) Maybe when indoor picks back up I can get him to fly the breeze and give his impressions. That would be sweet.

Oh when I do the bracing I di it before the landing gear goes in so it can sit flat on a table. Square it and tack it with glue. Dont really need a jig, then again I haven't won any contests yet either.

[Trisquire]

Is it actually possible to buy these? I've seen a few of Greg's Reflections (Havoc) and they fly nothing like the GP kit.

Azarr
www.ecubedrc.com
Greg says no. Only Team Futaba members. :(

Tom

[Azarr]

If you are Sean McMurtry, then I guess you can : )

LOL Match,

Azarr
www.ecubedrc.com

[Azarr]

Greg says no. Only Team Futaba members. :(

Tom

Too bad, I'd love to have one of them. One of our local Team Futaba guys got one handed down in a trade or something and I got to fly it, pretty nice.

Azarr
www.ecubedrc.com

[racerxky]

Here are the 0.3 plans. I had to split the PDF into two files this time. I was seeing some missing lines when exporting large scale plans from Sketchup so I split it up to get accurate PDF versions. This is going to break the existing links to the PDF files and ill have a fix for that later. The permanent good URL to get to the plans (good till the end of time +1) is:

http://waves.ky/breeze/

I'll get some HTML up there when I get time. For right now you can get right at the files.

Since you cant get a reflection you might as well build a Breeze :D

whopper, best of luck with your build, post if you have any questions. Also any build picks flight video and most importantly, pilot feedback, will be appreciated.

[whopper]

Thanks for all your hard work on this racer, I will deff. post some pics of the build and the finished product. :)

I'll try to get some video too, just need to convince my loverly Girlfriend to play camera person for me....... :eek:

I'll get the plans printed this week and hopefully will have some pics for you next weekish.

The only thing I might change is the fin shape to match the stab tip shape. I'll see how close I can get it without changing the area above and below the thrust line too much. But really this is just for asthetics and a personal thing.

Once again racer, thanks very much. If this flies as good as it looks I'll have a new favorite model. :D :cool:

[racerxky]

Thanks for all your hard work on this racer, I will deff. post some pics of the build and the finished product. :)

I'll try to get some video too, just need to convince my loverly Girlfriend to play camera person for me....... :eek:

I'll get the plans printed this week and hopefully will have some pics for you next weekish.

The only thing I might change is the fin shape to match the stab tip shape. I'll see how close I can get it without changing the area above and below the thrust line too much. But really this is just for asthetics and a personal thing.

Once again racer, thanks very much. If this flies as good as it looks I'll have a new favorite model. :D :cool:

No problem. Hope you can convince the girlfriend to play Camera Woman.

I did change the shape of the rudder somewhat. I squared it off and made the stab bigger. With the additional taper it didn't look right to me but perhaps I should mess with it some more. The jury is out on the rudder, it was very effective before, it may be a bit too large this time. If it flies like it is too big you can cut up to 1cm off the trailing edge to tame it down. Changing the stab shape probably wont affect the performance noticeably so go for it.

[whopper]

I was thinking a fin/rudder shape similar to Benoit Dierickx's Mystic (sorry, I can't find a pic). This is fairly close to the stab/wingtip shape on the Breeze and I think would match the lines of the rest of the plane nicely.

[racerxky]

Now its more like the Aito, which I think looks beautiful. The Breeze is not an out and out copy but it could be considered close.

Here is a link to the Mystic's tail (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=786919). It reminds me of a WWI airplane.

[whopper]

Don't get me wrong, I think the Aito looks great as does the Breeze.

I just love the look of the Mystic's fin.

Hmmmmmm........I do like WW1 aircraft too........maybe there is a link? lol......

[Rafz]

Here my mini-Breeze V.1 , scaled down (span 630) due to limit of my cnc axis.
Pull pull for tail surfaces, 195 gr AUW.
I'm lucky to have a friend that loves to paint my plane, so i can spend more time building(and crashing).
This plane died yesterday.. time to try the brand new V.3 :rolleyes:

[racerxky]

Cool! Sorry it went down :(

How did the V0.1 fly?

Oh it was CNC cut? What did you use to do that? Do you need the 0.3 DXF?

[Bryan Davison]

Gareth, glad to see your design taking off. It really is a true performance design.

That paint job looks cool. I got to build one of these for myself.

[racerxky]

Thanks Brian. Yes its really cool to see someone else build your design. Im hooked! I'm going to do a monoplane later this year.

I need to trash my v0.1, take the parts and build a V0.3. What I really want to do is see what happens if you replace the fuslage sides and firewall with 3mm EPP. I dont think you can replace any of the other bits or it will flex too much. It might allso need to be double thickness in the nose area.

[Rafz]

Cool! Sorry it went down :(

How did the V0.1 fly?

Oh it was CNC cut? What did you use to do that? Do you need the 0.3 DXF?

It flew very nice, well beyond my pilot's skill, very smooth and slow even with the reduced wing area.
Almost no coupling on knife edges, some little problem on takeoff caused by the rudder that dont allow the correct AoA whit a medium long undercarriage and a regular tail skid.
I had to cut the rudder a bit to avoid contact with the ground when taxiing around.
Yes, i'd like to have the 0.3 dxf... i cut that plane ripping the dxf from the bmp... :censored:

[racerxky]

It flew very nice, well beyond my pilot's skill, very smooth and slow even with the reduced wing area.
Almost no coupling on knife edges, some little problem on takeoff caused by the rudder that dont allow the correct AoA whit a medium long undercarriage and a regular tail skid.
I had to cut the rudder a bit to avoid contact with the ground when taxiing around.
Yes, i'd like to have the 0.3 dxf... i cut that plane ripping the dxf from the bmp... :censored:

Your absolutly right about the takeoff thing. Let me see what I can do about that on the plans. What is the optimal angle of attack on takeoff for a flat plate foamie?

I kinda have the same problem with mine and I just give it a big wack of throttle and then once it leaps into the air I ease off :D

But your absolutly right, I will fix that and get the DXF posted. Oh does it help if i do the DXF with everything flattened so the number of lines is minimized?