Big floaters better than slippery ships?

[Curare]

for finding lift when you're leaning to thermal?

I'm just curious? Or doesn't it matter? Is it just the time spent with a plane that makes you more attuned to lift?

I come from a pattern background and there, everyone knows that a well trimmed model that you've practiced with for a long time is better than a brand new machine with all the bells and whistles, that you haven't dialled in.

How much of a difference would I see if I started building a Genie or something like that, as opposed to an old olypic, or a Step upp...

[rogerflies]

You'll be looking for the same things with either type. Everything will be happening faster with the slippery ship, so it'll be easier to miss the signals. I'd recommend starting with a floater to learn how to recognize the signals and develop the correct responses. Applying what you learn to a faster plane will be easy.

Roger

[Curare]

I'm currently tootling around my my old floater, and just thinking to myself:

Self! You need ailerons! ..and flaps, crow braking, that's where it's at, then those thermals will just pop up and speck me out.

Alas I don't think that either will help right now, but it would give me something to do with my throttle thumb!

[OVSS Boss]

Two answers depending on if you fly with other good thermal pilots:
1) Since you are a qualified Rc pilot, I would say, if you have good tech and flying support of other good TD types, get going and step up. Reason being, if you fly with others that know their stuff, they will accelerate your learning curve, and very soon have the slippery ship tuned up and you will find out very soon how much better you will be flying.

2) If you are on your own, the floater may be better. Will give you a little more time to think and give you more room for set up mistakes. But, once you even start to get "it", you will want to move up and not be restricted by the floaters limitations. I love my RES ship, a Grand Esprit, but would not want to fly in against the modern airframes.

Hopefully you have others around for good counsel, and that will help you a bunch.

Marc

[will_newton]

My 2-channel vintage balsa floater was a lovely plane and fun to fly. I wish I had never sold it.

Unfortunately, it was hopeless in a competition environment versus multi-thousand dollar carbon/kevlar TD ships, but then again it was not designed for competition.

Try a compromise. Fiberglass fuse/balsa wings. Maybe a rudder/elevator/spoiler ship.

You will probably buy, fly, and upgrade, just as you would a powered model. A simpler model will let you focus on the technique, as your gliding skills mature, you can sell it and buy something fancier!

Will

[Curare]

I think I'll keep working on my technique for now.

To be honest, I don't really want to compete all that much at the moment, I have my plate full with other comps, and flying sailplanes is, well, just super duper relaxing.

:)

[Erk]

My 2-channel vintage balsa floater was a lovely plane and fun to fly. I wish I had never sold it.

[...]

Try a compromise. Fiberglass fuse/balsa wings. Maybe a rudder/elevator/spoiler ship.

You will probably buy, fly, and upgrade, just as you would a powered model. A simpler model will let you focus on the technique, as your gliding skills mature, you can sell it and buy something fancier!

Will


Since you're already an accomplished flier, a DLG might be just the ticket. They tend to cover both aspects... slippery and floaty. Add in the much lower cost (i haven't seen a $1000 DLG yet) and it lowers the risk factor considerably.

I've learned more about thermal flying in a month or so of DLG than I ever did in 10 years of sloping... heck, catching a thermal 10 feet off the deck on my first real day out with an Alula taught me more in one flight! (not to mention it's a LOT of fun.)

I think it's the fact that it all happens so much closer, or maybe it's the fact that my eyes feel a lot older than I do. I -think- that's a big advantage over a much larger plane, along with ease of transport, lack of required support equipment, and lower investment. But I'm weird, I know.

If you don't mind building, there are quite a few excellent planes available for under $100, and really excellent birds usually run less than $500. Check out the Hand Launch forums for much more experienced opinions...

HTH,

Erik

[little flyer]

I would like to second a DLG as it will give you plenty of airtime and because you are flying at such a low level, you see the signs very easily.

Marc: Funny you say that about the GE, I remember you flying it at the Fred. :)

[schrederman]

I really like the advanced floater... So what the heck is that? Well, something like the Houston Hawk or Bubble Dancer, or several others. They can cover ground and still be simple to fly. They signal lift really well and thermal well. They have the ability to come down from way, way up there in a hurry. I can dive my Hawk vertically and not flutter or overstress it on pullout. I think a Bubble dancer will do that too.

Have fun, whatever you do.

Jack Womack

[EricSoar]

There is an in between. Take the Elegant 700:
- Built up wing (SD7037 section)
- fibre glass fuse
- rudder, elevator, flaps, ailerons (six servo)
- 107 inch wing joined in the middle
around $US270 ARF

The Elegant is basically a floater with the advantage of being easier to control and land with the flaps and ailerons. Wind penetration is not as good as the slippery models. I cut the nose off and put in an electric motor in mine. There are several other F3J models like the Elegant. See EspritModels.com for some examples.

The true floaters can't penetrate any wind and get into trouble up high. If you try to bring them down without flaps or a spoiler the wings fold (I've done that!).

[Ollie]

Right on, Jack!

Slippery floaters (Bubble Dancer, AVA and Houston Hawk) are best. You can have cake and eat it too.

[Curare]

Sorry Eric, re you talking in a TD style event, getting them down fast? or are you talking in general? I've never had a plane clap hands on me dropping out of a thermal...

I just fly out inverted;)

[atjurhs]

There is an in between. Take the Elegant 700:
- Built up wing (SD7037 section)
- fibre glass fuse
- rudder, elevator, flaps, ailerons (six servo)
- 107 inch wing joined in the middle
around $US270 ARF

The Elegant is basically a floater with the advantage of being easier to control and land with the flaps and ailerons. Wind penetration is not as good as the slippery models. I cut the nose off and put in an electric motor in mine. There are several other F3J models like the Elegant. See EspritModels.com for some examples....

Just to let you know, the follow-on to the Elegant series is now offered by NSP, and is called Grace. It is essentially an "Elegant 3". I have one, and I love it. It is my first full-house bird, and she does fly very nicely!

[greyhound flyer]

Curare:

This is the funniest expression I've ever heard regarding wing failure. :D

Thanks for sharing it!

--Byron.

I've never had a plane clap hands on me dropping out of a thermal...

[dgliderguy]

Ah, the old "floater vs slipper" discussion! The smart modelers have both.

In the early morning, as the sun is rising and warming things up and the birdies are still chirping, it is goodness to pull out the big acreage (like a Paragon or a Sailaire), so you can work those little warm puffs and float around like a hot-air balloon.

Then, around noon, as the ground gets hot and the air begins to turbulate and starts piping really good, you can pull out a glassie, so when the thermals become boomers you can really chew up some serious sky, and rocket around like a winged missile.

This is why true soaring junkies have a little of everything in their quiver. Can't have too many gliders!

[BMatthews]

For relaxed flying you can't beat a floater. But with much of any wind the floater soon can get frustrating since MOST floaters lack a decent speed range to work with.

If you're only doing this for fun then resist the pressure to move "up" to a full house model. They ARE more work to fly.

While a classic old style floater works well at slow flight the newer generation of slippery but light floaters let's you have your cake and eat it too. The Bubble Dancer and Allegro Lite come to mind.

Sorry Jack but I consider your lovely Houston Hawk project to be out of the floater realm. I see it more as an inbetween higher performance poly ship in the same vein as the Saggita and Bird of Time. All great ships in their own right but not really in the class that can slow down like a Gentle Lady or Oly II. Feel free to stomp on me if I'm all wet on this call... :D

[soholingo]

Good question and one that I was pondering. I have tried all sorts of ships, and decided that I need stick time, and simplicity. So I decided on a winddancer. I haven't received her yet, but when I do I will build it, and fly it in my neighborhood, and with the flaps I should be able to land it easily.

Nothing worse than seeing the birds thermaling and not having anything to fly.

As a side note I also tried DLG. While its fun, it IS an advanced form of thermalling. So I figure a 2meter with a flap/landing control would be perfect. We will see...

Jay

[Barnsey]

[QUOTE=BMatthews]For relaxed flying you can't beat a floater. But with much of any wind the floater soon can get frustrating since MOST floaters lack a decent speed range to work with.QUOTE]I agree, but some floaters don't have to be light to be effective. 25 years ago I finished an Aquila, the standard 100" span version complete with flat-bottomed section from LE to TE. In those days we didn't fly comps when it was too windy, so the sub-3lbs flying weight and 2 x 6g joiners weren't considered a handicap. Gentle launch, float out to the field periphery and wander about a bit before landing, always before the slot timer ended :).

When it was 10 I damaged a wing panel. By then I'd observed that the more successful pilots went looking for lift rather than hang around waiting for it to come to them, so the repair/mods were carried out with improved (fingers crossed) soaring performance in mind. The weight finished up at 4.25lbs, the 6g joiners relegated to incidence pins for the new 5/16" HT steel joiner system. It felt like an anvil. But it didn't fall out of the sky as anticipated, It just genteely travelled further before landing. A lot further. Far enough to take it out to a speck confident that it'd get back (it still does most of the time :)). It could now be winch launched with little flex in the wings, the original balanced rudder complaining about the higher velocities on launch by waggling the ship from side to side when zooming to ping off the line :eek:. It could now be flown on windy days, a useful attribute where I live.

It still floats around, but with an authority lacking in its lighter guise, still shows up any hint of air movement with a waggle as it trundles around. Last year at our Nats it trundled well enough in two 10 minute slots to defeat the glass armada on its way to lifting the Classic class prize :D.

The Aquila still has its original servos (rud/elev) and (huge) Futaba rx. It may have been treated to a new rx nicad pack in the early 90's. It doesn't require a computer radio :). If I do another one I'll add airbrakes. It's the one model I have which can be left untouched for many months, charged, taken to the field and flown just like we'd been out together only yesterday.

If only everything else I've flown/driven/ridden was this reliable... :)

John

[wingsnapper]

I can't believe that I'm saying this..but you should try out the new Great Planes Fling 2M. I've had mine for a few weeks now and just can't believe how good the thing flys. Just today I was able to scratch out a pretty nice flight from a botched 50ft launch. I have the CG cranked back to the max and the result is hlg like turning ability with the glide of a 2-3M. Just looks smooth in the air and is on the slippery side to boot (7037 foil). Did I mention that I'm pretty picky about the way my planes fly? It just surprised the heck out of me.

Granted you will have nothing for your left thumb to do, but you are after relaxing flight.. right?
Jesse

[Curare]

left thumb?

HA!

I'm mode one!

time to start another argument methinks;)

[schrederman]

BMatthews said - Quote... "Sorry Jack but I consider your lovely Houston Hawk project to be out of the floater realm. I see it more as an inbetween higher performance poly ship in the same vein as the Saggita and Bird of Time. All great ships in their own right but not really in the class that can slow down like a Gentle Lady or Oly II. Feel free to stomp on me if I'm all wet on this call... "

Hey, at least you called it LOVELY... Maybe you should fly one. Both of mine have been fairly light, and really float quite well... No stomping necessary.

See ya...

Jack

[glidagida]

for finding lift when you're leaning to thermal?

I'm just curious? Or doesn't it matter? Is it just the time spent with a plane that makes you more attuned to lift?

I come from a pattern background and there, everyone knows that a well trimmed model that you've practiced with for a long time is better than a brand new machine with all the bells and whistles, that you haven't dialled in.

How much of a difference would I see if I started building a Genie or something like that, as opposed to an old olypic, or a Step upp...

Nothing beats a well balanced plane in thermalling and finding lift. I had an original [all timber] BOT that would head for the lift the moment it came off launch and then just close in on the thermal. All that centering the thermal required was a slight blip on rudder to overcome the wing that was lifting and steer her into the thermal. Made me look very good that plane did.

I should declare here that I am a dealer with my own website
<rc-sailplane.com.au>

I came back into the sport in 2004 after a 10 year layoff and had 'sticker shock' at the cost of moulded sailplanes. I researched overseas on what to buy I was advised to get a Corrado 2000 [Zenith in the US] and eventually started my own business importing these and other fully moulded ships.

One of my favourite models is the Soprano RES, which is very similar to the AVA in a lot of ways; balsa ribs/carbon 'D' box wing, but the Soprano has a fully moulded fus and an MH32 section instead of the Drela sections.

Its a lot like the old BOT in that it will thermal hunt all by itself when the CofG is correct. The **BIG** difference is how well this penetrates compared to the BOT/Olympic/Viking [yes I admit it I had a Viking with a fuselage big enough to fit a bus]. Just keep the nose down and maintain momentum and these things will keep up with some of the mouldies. A really enjoyable plane which allows you to laze around in a thermal yet scoot out and find lift when you need to.

My advice is to save up your biccies and go for the AVA/Soprano style of plane.

Cheers
GG

[Curare]

Well, hehe this weekend was an interesting one.

First launch of the hi start was weak as water, so a quick change of stake position and off she went again, still air and a good 400' launch. and straigh out, I got bumped, and fell into a boomer, and 900' I gave it to my girlfriend,to tootle around, and she got sucked up another 500', after that I got the transmitter given to me with the comment, "it's over there, I think I can't see it anymore!"

A good day, even if the old girl doesn't like flying inverted that much:D