Scratch building rather than kits or ARF's

[harleym]

I'm Harley Michaelis, LSF 023. For some 40 years, rather than doing kits or buying ARF's, I've designed, built and competed with original design airframes built from basic raw materials such as balsa, plywood, spruce, bass, carbon fiber, fiberglass, foam and assorted adhesives. It's easy, inexpensive and the airframes are equally as fine performing as "store bought".

What I do is extensively documented in the website http://genie.rchomepage.com/ known as the "Genie pages". The pages cover the building of the Genie line of sailplanes. These include the big Genie, the Icon-sized Genie Pro and the light and smaller version, the Genie LT/S. The file "What's a Genie" discusses these unique, high-performance airframes.

In reality, the Genie pages provide a liberal education in building from scratch, with hundreds of tips, techniques and pictures showing the way. By building any one of the three airframes, you will be armed with knowledge to create your own beautiful designs and be able to work independently of kits and ARFs.

While building my 29th big Genie, just finished a few days ago, new things discovered were incorporated into the various files and just yesterday, all of the updated files were posted to the web pages.

In addition to the information in the Genie pages, members Byron Seward (greyhound flyer) and Chris Boultinghouse (JustPlaneChris) are respectively documenting their builds of a big Genie in this forum and in the on line magazine RCSD at http://www.rcsoaringdigest.com.

Take a look. There is no reason to accept the notion that you must fly an ARF and drop $1,000 or more to have a fine-performing airframe.

[soholingo]

This is finally starting to sink in to with me...

thanks for the hard work Harley...

[schrederman]

Harley,

The builders of the world SALUTE YOU!!! It was people like you that taught me to build free-flight models so long ago, knowing how badly I wanted to build, and knowing I had no father.

My hat's off to you.

Jack Womack
Designer - Houston Hawk - Woodhawk - Yardbird - etc.

[histarter]

Hi Harley,
The two top sailplanes that have my attention are your Genie, and Jack's Houstin Hawk; even though RES is the prime design center for the Hawk - making it somewhat limited for TD.

Unfortunately Mike, Mike, and Al of Pilot Point Texas really got stuck with our low launch system because we just cannot measure up to your amazing physical dexterity. Thus we are still concentrating (stuck) on two channel simple sailplanes (like the Sugar Shuttle).

With eyesight now poor, uglyness becomes invisable! 1000 ft AGL is now the edge of 'out of sight'. Our Genie program to build 3 Genies simply lost its impetus. :o

I do hope others will realize your talent. My Canadian friends are as realistic as yourself (and a lot younger) 'wishing' to execute your great engineering, but they seem to be mired in RES and F3J currently (flying machines that do both tasks). :rolleyes:

I sincerely hope those that can make the chips fly, and build your machine for the popular TD (and F3J) bias, can fight our current inflation while enjoying your maxums of performance. :)
[If they still had BOM rules, we would all be "Outlaws driving Harleys"] :eek: :D

[greyhound flyer]

I can certainly understand this feeling, as I built 2 poly ships while I had the Genie plans and "kit" in my possession.

After finally getting the gumption to start the Genie, except for not having some tooling or parts, it's been easy to keep going. As long as you follow Harley's copious instructions, even I, with a 2-year old at home and occasional on-call work duties, have managed to nearly finish it and can see the finish line. There's a tremendous sense of pride and accomplishment in seeing it go together from sheets of balsa and plywood and foam cores. And you gain lots of insight into how to build and repair other models as well. And, they fly pretty nice, too. :D

--Byron.

[seanpcola]

I built two of Harley's Genies back around 1994 and had a blast..... on top of the phone conversations I was priviledged to have with him. His advice and hard work in providing his knowledge and insite has helped me virtually in every model I have built since then. In fact, every model I have built since (a lot), and all of the stable I maintain for my boss have at least one little innovation that came from Harley's fertile mind. RDS systems, building techniques, various hinging ideas, the list is long. I can't even assemble an ARF anymore without tearing it down in some ways and improving it, due to my Genie experience. Harley, there is no way I and the huge list of people you have inspired could ever express our appreciation for all you have done for this great hobby.

Sean

PS: As soon as I get some other projects done around the house I guess I will have to do another Genie with all of Harley's updates.

[lincoln]

"There is no reason to accept the notion that you must fly an ARF and drop $1,000 or more to have a fine-performing airframe."
It doesn't work anyway, unless you replace the nut on the end of the transmitter stick.

I'm lazy and have too many hobbies, so most of my scratch building has gone into free flight. The rowboats I finished were started by someone else, tho I don't know if that saved any time. However, one of these millenia I'm going to finish my scratch built Apogee.

Another option is to get an airframe that's only 10 years out of date. At the local level, that will hardly make any difference. All the gliders that are flown in sink come down.

I'll admit that an exception to the above assertion is in DLG, tho there are now kits that seem to DLG ok. And the plans for the SuperGee are on the web.

histarter:
Sounds like a 50% oversize Bubble Dancer is in order.

[jrgospod]

I was severally chastised for calling the “World Soaring Masters” the Big Boys Big Bucks Buy and Fly (BBBBBF). I know that we have a few in the contesting soaring community that do build what they fly, but they are few and far between. They are mostly manufactures and the exception to the rule. Ones that are non-manufactures, like Harley, you can most likely count your hands (I’m just waiting to see how many BOM “Builder Of Model” entries we have for the Masters). I really think that BOM rule for major contests would make the hobby more interesting and promote more innovation. It would also put an end to the Model of the year (this year it seems to be the Supra) mentality that dominates the buy and fly soaring web. It would free pilots to concentrate on flying skills and not be deceived into thinking that buying skills are necessary. I think we all owe Harley a great debt of gratitude for his contribution to the hobby and some day when I get a shop I will be studying in earnest the great knowledge he has documented. I have copies and keep the updates because it is irreplaceable knowledge. Harley is correct in that “the Genie pages provide a liberal education in building from scratch”.

My .02,

Flame proof pants on and buckled.

John

[bobby legue]

You got a helluva lot of nerve saying that! BBBBBBF! Made me laugh out loud and wake up my wife. WELL SAID, WELL DONE!

[spatial]

. It would also put an end to the Model of the year (this year it seems to be the Supra) mentality that dominates the buy and fly soaring web.

Don't know if the Supra is a good example - sure there is the kennedy composites moulded version but lets not forget that the original design is for a scratch built vac bagged version. Respect due to those who have built or are building the supra from scratch.

cheers
Paul

[rdwoebke]

I really feel we are entering a renaissance of building. Guys doing wood builds like Erich’s XC and guys doing Supra home builds and Genies. And of course a ton of folks are building Super Gees and their own home brew DLGs. This being compounded with websites, yahoo groups, and rcgroups there is a lot of great information out there for people that want to give it a go.

But I have no beef with the folks that choose to buy an ARF. It keeps great guys in business and probably does keep more guys in the hobby. There is room for all kinds in this hobby.

Ryan

[Ollie]

My $.02 worth:

You must earn money or be given money to buy an ARF. If you crash your ARF and can't repair it, then you have zero value.

Harley has very high value to this hobby, to us and to himself. If you build his designs and improve your building skills, your building skills have value for the rest of your life. If you build it, you have pride of value. You can't be robbed from building skills but you can crash compared to ARF money. Compare value not to ARF money.

[jrgospod]

Don't know if the Supra is a good example - sure there is the kennedy composites moulded version but lets not forget that the original design is for a scratch built vac bagged version. Respect due to those who have built or are building the supra from scratch.

cheers
Paul


Definitely accolades to the scratch Supra builders, and don’t forget the BD builders. I think you can count scratch supra builders on your fingers. All the rest are Buy and Fly. It will be interesting to see the BOM count at the “Masters”.

John

P.S. I bet they won't want to publish it.

[OVSS Boss]

John,
I do not think that anyone will care if there is a count of home brewed ships at the World Soaring Masters. I will do it for you and that way it is done and I will post here in September.

Marc

PS: To Harley, Jack, Tom, Dr. Drela, Phil, Ray and others, my hats off to you for your efforts. You guys are great dsigners and buildes and even though I do not do much of it anymore, you can still appreciate your work.

[jrgospod]

The one thing I don’t understand is why the major hobby supply companies support events that don’t use the BOM rule. Most events they support would do nothing but frighten off a newcomer from modeling because of the high dollar entry point that the public sees. I have seen people bring kids to events and the first thing they ask is what does this plane cost. My reply is it cost a lot of dedicated and fun building time before you can get in the air. I just cringe when one of the high dollar pilots start in that "I paid $1500.00 for this plane and the radio cost another $1000.00”. When that is the approach, it is not long till I see the newcomer pulling out of the parking lot never to be seen in modeling again. I’d be willing to bet that major hobby supply companies would sell a lot more material and supplies if they pushed for BOM rules. The major suppliers must view the smaller specialized high-end (foreign or domestic) ARF’s as a drag on sales. Selling tools and supplies to many builders that buy from major hobby supply companies in small quantities has to be more profitable for supplier. They must not even see any profits from most of the materials that go into the high-end models, and they mostly don’t sell the high-end finish product. I know that maybe more radios and servos are sold at first, but year after year you reuse the radios; where the next year in scratch built you buy more supplies and tools to build more planes. The used scratch built models would be passed on to newcomers that would buy more servos and radios along with tools and supplies for repair and so the circle continues. Not so with high-end ARF’s. Well, I have to go order more supplies to finish my next build. Maybe the answer will come while I’m gone.

John

P.S. I do have a spirit ARF that I got used real cheep at Toledo. It’s on its third season only because of the modeling skills I had acquired scratch building other planes before I got it. I would not have been able to repair it after the first few dumb thumb “events” that caused major damage if I was only Buy and Fly.

[rdwoebke]

I have seen people bring kids to events and the first thing they ask is what does this plane cost. My reply is it cost a lot of dedicated and fun building time before you can get in the air.

For some people, your statment will do more to scare them off than saying the plane cost $1,000.

Here is a good experiment. Written in the style of GordySoar. :) Go to Best Buy. But don’t go to the front door, instead go to the shipping docks, and hit some guy on his smoke break over the head with a bat. Drag him to a secure area and steal his employee shirt/name badge. Then, go to the TV section and pretend to be a sales dude. So when people come up to you and ask about a HDTV, give them this information:

"Oh, it takes about 6 months of research and building, but the kit costs $100 and then you need to buy about another $80 worth of building supplies. You have a pretty good chance of getting a set built that works 90% as well as an “ARTV”

Then say “or, you could pay $2,100 for that unit over there, ready to view”.

I’d bet 95 out of 100 people would go for the 2nd option. That is not a bad thing or a "slam" on them, just how things are. Now we can either welcome those folks into the hobby or not. Certainly we can choose to build our own planes and find ways to support those that do (like Sky Bench Aerotech and the Wood Crafters series) but doing anything to alienate those that choose not to build their planes is not good for the hobby long term.

Although I have really never owned an ARF, I think they are good for the hobby. Example, when do you see potential pilots come to the field? Is it in November when time is ripe for building a plane? Or is it in June when having an option to buy something with just a few hours assembly (or none) would be ideal? I suspect it is often the latter. And models like the EasyGlider, Easy Star, Slow Stick, and even the Aero Birds are great solutions in those situations. If you read through RC groups, you will see a bunch of people that came into this hobby via the "birds" and are now building planes (or at least flying gliders).

Now, we are actually pretty fortunate in soaring, in that we have the *option* to build the HDTV. That option does not really exist (to my knowledge) for TV enthusiasts. I really feel we are in a renaissance of building. But there is no need to call people names that are not into building planes. Repeat after me. There is room for all of us!

Ryan

[jrgospod]

I’m still chuckling Ryan. That was good. I just think the Major hobby supply companies are shooting themselves in the foot by not pushing BOM contests. As for the Aero-Bird (I got one as a gift from a well intentioned in-law) and use entry level ARF etc. to get people started; I have a friend that I is just getting started in soaring with an entry ARF. He does have some building experience and will be able to fix what he breaks. I’m also all for inclusive Ryan. The “Masters” has rejected a Woody class and also rejected Ray’s (Skybench) and my offer to support a woody class with cash prize money for the top woody winners. I guess the woody flyers have no right to feel “alienated” by that because they should know that soaring “Masters” don’t fly wood.

John

[schrederman]

Oddly enough, I came back into the hobby about 6 years ago and was astonished at what was no longer available. The number of decent kits was absolutely nil. There were a lot of other options, but I'm an old free-flighter... I was horrified. I even went to the trouble of scratch building a Legionair. I would have had lots of trouble except that my brother had a junk fuselage and some plans. I became the entertainment at my club, with people gathering at my truck in case I brought out something new. My point is that there are folks out there that would like to build, but are afraid of it. That's why we did the Houston Hawk project. I had 17 people in my garage for a wing-building class. Our club was only 30 members at the time. Economics is the sole ruler of the model industry. Let's face it - If a guy can buy a Chinese-built P-51 ARF for about what a kit costs, who's gonna build the kit? Granted, a few of us would, but not very many. I hate to admit it, but I'm currently flying a moldie... maybe it doesn't count, though, since it has a 15 meter wingspan...

I can hardly wait for 15000' cloudbases!

Jack Womack

[OVSS Boss]

John,

I know better, but here goes. You say that BOM rules would help tha major manufacturers, if that is the case, how much building supplies do Horizon, Great Planes, or most of the "model" companies carry these days, or even kits for that matter? NONE, or nearly none! They are selling ARF's of all forms and sizes, that is the business and you will not stop it now

Building materials are found at specialized companies just as those beautiful molded sailplanes that most fly. Yap, guys like Ray, Harley and others keep things going as do the ingenuity of countless modelers around the world that build or design. If the Horizons and GP's of the world were concerned, they would still sell kits instead of a million ARF's and not be sending guys to China and Viet Nam to line up more manufacturing and line out quality concerns, which the way most these ARF's look, they have it down to a science. It is my opinion that you are going to see in the future sub $500 molded ships once the far eastern manufacturers get with it, it will then hurt the eastern European guys a bunch. You will also see very nice wood winged ships for even less.

Just about every facet of high end competition in RC is flying mostly prefabbed ships, so soaring is just aligned with pattern, IMAC, racing, and even FAI FF in using these sources for their airframes. The home brew, kit builder guy is never going to leave the hobby, but there are a lot more choices out there for the modeler and the jeanie is out of the bottle.

The World Soaring Masters contest is a no holes barred event, and by being so, are the organizers saying that any type of airframe is off the board. I doubt you see Lackowski fly his Bubble Dancer though, but you never know. If you want to make a woody or BOM event of the stature that hopefully the WSMs becomes, put you money, time, and effort on the line and lets see if the folks show up for it. If they do, you know that you have hit a group with what they wanted and you will succeed too.

Marc

[jrgospod]

It must take one H of a winch to get that model in the air :D :) :rolleyes: ! Be careful and don’t stall it, your club needs people like you.

John

[Ray Hayes]

The World Soaring Masters contest is a no holes barred event, and by being so, are the organizers saying that any type of airframe is off the board. I doubt you see Lackowski fly his Bubble Dancer though, but you never know. If you want to make a woody or BOM event of the stature that hopefully the WSMs becomes, put you money, time, and effort on the line and lets see if the folks show up for it. If they do, you know that you have hit a group with what they wanted and you will succeed too.

Marc[/QUOTE]

Marc, I also know better, but here goes. :-)

How is the WSM different than the AMA/LSF Nats ?????


My 2 cents:

Market always controls sales and cheap ARF's are hard to resist which means they will be good sellers. That is the way it works.

What individuals prefer to fly for fun or contests is still their choice and last I heard, this is still a free country. I think people that beat their chest about what someone should fly or not fly belongs to the Neanderthals and maybe the 911 perpetrators.

A more productive topic is what can we do to grow soaring club membership.

Clubs that are orientated to only contests will die.

Clubs that are orientated to one type of model sailplane will die.

Clubs that do not have diverse interests groups will die.

Realize that this is a hobby and when it comes to clubs, individuals will join or quit based on "if the club's activities are within the realm of their interests".

Ray Hayes
Skybench.com
Home of Wood Crafters

[OVSS Boss]

Is the WSM's different than the Soaring Nats? Maybe not much is many eyes, but, it is from the stand point of the structure and who the draw is trying to bring. Many Euros are coming over and just as the the Lowe Masters contest for Pattern fliers is different for them, hopefully the WSM's is going to be different for us.

Clubs, personnally, I have begun to view them as a means to an ends, that is all. I know you are correct in some ways here, but folks have to have some personnal motivation to want to participate and if that is not there, well so be it. The guys that are motivated will stay together and make it work. Soaring is a quirkie bunch with a steep learning curve hobby, I feel that is the single reason that we are on the firnge sometime, not because we do this or do that. Money is not an issue, and format is not an issue, personnal motivation is and you have to have it to play this game.

Really ready for WC man!

Marc

[jrgospod]

Sorry Mark but I don’t see it that way. My last order was for mostly tools but some disposables (None of which I could find at a good price at the Toledo show that was dominated by ARF’s). Things like precision Miter Saw, precision Miter Sander, wing building jigs, etc., etc., that I would not have a use for if I was flying off shore ARFs. It is kind of the chicken and the egg sort of thing when you say BOM would not help sales. I just looked at Tower and you are correct. One sailplane ARF, and several entry level sailplane kits. The good wood kits are in the Skybench specialty provider realm. They don’t carry them any more because BOM and wood models have been driven out of the contest circuit. This has happened even when it would not cost them any more to be inclusive and to help unify the soaring community with separate classes and include no cost (to them) prizes offers for wood. I think the real reason to be non-inclusiveness (the dirty little secrete that is not spoken) is that including a wood class would take some of the slots for wood pilots and that would leave less for the “real soaring ‘Masters’”. This is just my $.02 and I’m not afraid to say it knowing I will again be severally chastised. That life! Been there done that. I was not afraid to express my opinion in the work world and it served me well enough to allow early retirement. It is hard to stand by and watch what is happening in the soaring community and remain silent.

John

[jrgospod]

Clubs that are orientated to only contests will die.

Clubs that are orientated to one type of model sailplane will die.

Clubs that do not have diverse interests groups will die.

Ray Hayes
Skybench.com
Home of Wood Crafters


Ray,

I know you are correct about the expiring clubs. I think you may have just missed the obituaries. Look at the local club. Loft only scores 10 yearly club events for standings, leaving out the two OVSS fund raising events. After looking at the recap of the Loft club scores for 2005 I found that only 25 pilots attended the 10 2M club contest. Of that 25 only 10 attended more than ½ the contests. Quite an abysmal showing only 2/5 of the flying pilots attend more than ½ your contests. Well that is only 2M you might say. Let’s see what Unlimited generated.

Again we had 10 club scoring contest but this time only 24 pilots attended. Of that 24 only 8 (2 less than in 2M) attended more that ½ the contests. Do the math. Only 1/3 of the flying pilots attended over ½ of the unlimited contests. To say attendance is low is an understatement.

Loft gives Sportsman, Expert, and Masters trophies at the end of the season. Just to show how bad it was I won the Expert trophy with only 4 (as in flying in only 40% of the contests). Now I’m not a good pilot and I am the first one to acknowledge that. It was a surprise (and embarrassment) to get a trophy for flying in 4 out of ten contests where I scored an average of 529 points out of 1000. It should have been a wakeup call for the club that something was gravely wrong but it was not.

Unless we can get more people like Ray, Harley, Jack, and others that love the sport involved even the funeral will be poorly attended.

John

http://www.loftrc.org/score2005.html


P.S. I was in attendance at most of the contest and supported the club by driving the cart, setting the winches, etc., but I do my flying at other times when MON, and impaling the earth for points is not the task of the day. I enjoy building, and a different type of soaring than the club contest offer.

[rdwoebke]

We might be in danger of getting a bit off topic here.... :)

Interesting. I look at those numbers and think it is pretty good or at least normal. I have found that in all of my hobbies, only about 1/2 of the members of a given club will regularly attend meetings and events. It is just how it is. People live busy lives and they don't seem to make that many events. But they always hope they can so they keep thier membership up, or attend one or two events or meetings a season.

Your LOFT club contests usually have around 15 pilots. I think that is pretty good for a club contest that does not award any prizes (for the individual event). Guys have been known to drive in from pretty far away too.

If you don't like the way things are going, start something different. Of course, you seem to be one of the more active guys in the club, so that might be tough to do given you already do a lot. My model rocket club has been seeing decreasing membership (and participation) over the last few years. So this season I organized a "kids launch" where we invited local kids out to fly thier rockets and awarded some door prizes. The local press came out and we had a nice Saturday edition cover story on our club. Since we slanted the entire day towards doing stuff "for the kids", the article was entirely positive.

[Phil Barnes]

I think the real reason to be non-inclusiven (the dirty little secret that is not spoken) is that including a wood class would take some of the slots for wood pilots and that would leave less for the “real soaring ‘Masters’”. What is a slot? Is that an entry in a contest? This sounds like you think that there are more people attempting to enter contests than there is space or "slots" for.
Again we had 10 club scoring contest but this time only 24 pilots attended. Of that 24 only 8 (2 less than in 2M) attended more that ½ the contests. Do the math. Only 1/3 of the flying pilots attended over ½ of the unlimited contests. To say attendance is low is an understatement.But now you seam to complain that there are not enough people entering contests. can you clear this up? I'm really trying very hard to understand your point.

I looked at your link to the Loft contest standings. You were 14th of 24 contestants. The fact that you were given a first place trophy is due to whatever system you guys use to segregate the contestants into different categories and the overall scoring system. Note that you beat four "masters" class pilots while two "sportsmen" beat all of the "experts". So if you were embarrased to recieve a first place trophy could make some attempt to change the classification/segregation/scoring system. It didn't work very well last year. As it is now you have 24 guys split into three categories. Perhaps you think a fourth (woody) class should be added. Do you think that would help?

[Kiesling]

Some thoughts on this discussion.

As far as the World Soaring Masters goes, last time I checked you are allowed to enter what ever type of sailplane you want - wood, composite, molded, foamy etc. The slots are available based on when your entry is recieved and wether or not you have LSF member status - that's it. No where did I see that if you fly a wood model you are excluded. The idea is to see who is the best at the defined tasks for that weekend. That is one of the things I love about soaring contests - you can fly the most beautiful model, the ugliest model, the weirdest model - whatever, it doesn't matter as long as you fly it well you can win. @Marc, I wouldn't be surprised if Lachowski does fly his Bubble Dancer if he feels it will give him an advantage.

My first R/C model was RTF not an ARF. An Eaglet 50 ready to go - radio, engine, even an instructor included. In my case I would have still been an avid modeler, but this model certainly accelerated the process. For others, this may be the only way they would get started. So personally I do not have a problem with ARF's - in fact I appreciate them. I know that without them many of the people I fly with would not be able to participate due to their day to day comittments.

As an aside, the only "hobby supplies" I buy from hobby stores are radio equipment and deans connectors. Everything else I buy from places like CST, Aerospace composites, McMaster Carr, Small Parts, Freeman Supply, Micheals Art Supplies, Lowes, Home Depot etc. From my experience, I don't think that enforcing BOM rules will change what the hobby stores sell. Perhaps if I built kits this would be different. . .

@Ryan, if you are getting 50% of your membership to show up at meetings and contests, then you are doing really great! When I belonged to a club the numbers were more like 10-20%.

FWIW
Tom

[jrgospod]

We might be in danger of getting a bit off topic here.... :)



Agree totally. Sorry Harley! The planes you build are great and knowledge you have added to the hobby is irreplaceable. The chastising has begun and I have said my piece so if anyone want to communicate off line that is fine. Send me an email or private message. I will respond to the last questions and comments and fall silent for the continued chastising.

. So this season I organized a "kids launch" where we invited local kids out to fly thier rockets and awarded some door prizes

This will be the fourth of fifth year that our club has sponsored two different days for kids. One is aviation day where each kid BUILDS and flies a plane. We also have a NASA sponsored research balloon launch that day with balloon video to the edge of space. It is done in conjunction with Taylor University and the Park board.

The other day is a Kite day where kids again BUILD a kite and fly it.

We have only three members that make both events happen. A the most club member in attendance at any one event that I recall is 4. I again am a worker bee but the credit goes to two members make it happen and a deceased member that got it started.

What is a slot? Is that an entry in a contest? This sounds like you think that there are more people attempting to enter contests than there is space or "slots" for.


I believe we both have been seen the target task times and number of rounds. The FCC limits the number of common (not ham) channels. You have been to enough contests. Do the math. From the interest I have seen it should be as big or bigger than the Nats (or maybe more if the gift/sponsorship of the wood class prizes were not rejected).


Perhaps you think a fourth (woody) class should be added. Do you think that would help?



No more classes required for the local club. You may be correct that we have more than necessary now. It would be nice to have some contest with different tasks and some extra events that are friendly to newcomers. I was asked to CD a contest last summer. I announced it in advances that it was a ladder event. To his credit Mark did show and support the event. He was one of only two or three (depends on who is counting) hardcore MOM members that did. I believe Mark was one of the people that said it was most flying he had done in a long time. I was not to CD asked again this year.

Well like I said I will not respond any more. This is you chance to go for the Juggler.

Again, Sorry Harley and keep up the great work. Good luck in the Lewiston contest with you new friend from the Internet, Scott. I’m sure you will show him a great flying time. I hope to someday make it out your way and fly/learn from you.

John

[mlachow]

I was severally chastised for calling the “World Soaring Masters” the Big Boys Big Bucks Buy and Fly (BBBBBF). I know that we have a few in the contesting soaring community that do build what they fly, but they are few and far between.


Obviously you have never tried to scratch build a molded sailplane. The BBBBBF variety is one heck of a lot cheaper to obtain. Add a 0 if you want to scratch build something better than all the ARF's out there. Plus you get a lot more flying time if you aren't building.

But if you fly AMA TD contests, who cares. The tasks haven't changed in decades and I think people have been making maxes and 100 point landings for almost as long.

Anyway, why bother. Anyone flying sailplanes is a good thing. Even Gordy, almost....

[rdwoebke]

Obviously you have never tried to scratch build a molded sailplane. The BBBBBF variety is one heck of a lot cheaper to obtain. Add a 0 if you want to scratch build something better than all the ARF's out there. Plus you get a lot more flying time if you aren't building.



Getting a bit back on topic, I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. Probably if you wanted to build a model equal to the wing accuracy of the Icon, then it would cost you 20,000 instead of 2,000 for the molds, etc, but you can do perhaps 80-90% the quality for a lot less. I figured that I spent about $200 on my Bubble Dancer. Granted, my build did not compare to the quality of the ARF version (Ava), but at that price I could have built 3 for the price.....

That, and when you scratch build, you can sort of "pay in installments". Some carbon here, some cloth there, etc. :-) A lot easier to keep the hobby under the radar. :)

For this poor boy (I guess I am no longer ashamed to admit that) I'll have to scratch build my ships for the near future. Especially when the molded Supra is greater than a bi-monthly paycheck...... Not that it is not worth that, just not within this guy's means.

Back to talking about scratch building. I wonder, given the current lack of a general source of Supra/Aegea booms, do you think more guys are going to undertake the Genie? Or will more guys try to roll thier own booms?

Ryan

[Kiesling]

Getting a bit back on topic, I'm not entirely sure I agree with that. Probably if you wanted to build a model equal to the wing accuracy of the Icon, then it would cost you 20,000 instead of 2,000 for the molds, etc, but you can do perhaps 80-90% the quality for a lot less.

Yes he is refering to the full molded "oooh shiny" models ;-)
Precision isn't cheap. You can do it by hand with templates and a lot of patience, but it would be a lot of work


Back to talking about scratch building. I wonder, given the current lack of a general source of Supra/Aegea booms, do you think more guys are going to undertake the Genie? Or will more guys try to roll thier own booms?

Ryan

While I have not rolled booms, I have molded a few fuses, and it isn't that hard or expensive. Something to consider for the initiated.

Tom

[jrgospod]

Back on subject.




Ryan,

Not sure on the question you ask, but if you have never seen the fuse in person it is really sexy looking. It is a winner hands down over a pod and boom in the looks department. It may not be as light as a pod and boom but it is a work of art. Hell the whole plane is a work of art and is a total design that is pleasing to the eye. The whole plane is so refined that you can’t go wrong with that design. I’ve not seen you work personally but I know that it’s good because of Mike R’s comments and observations. You could really do it justice and give us all a great build thread. If you would go for it I think we would all benefit from your build.

John

[JustPlaneChris]

While I have not rolled booms, I have molded a few fuses, and it isn't that hard or expensive.

I've rolled booms, and it's not difficult! I first learned the method from Frank Weston, but who knows if he thunk it up or learned it from someone else.

The secret is to roll up and tape a clear plastic (mylar) mandrel. Wax lightly. Slide it over a dowel, supported at either end by some sort of stand.

Pre-cut your cloth to the weird "ice cream cone" shape required to fit your mandrel, then laminate using your favorite method. I like to spray glue the cloth lightly to the mandrel, then wet it out all at once. Put the overlap(s) on opposite sides to avoid one huge ridge.

When cured, just slip something between the layup and the mylar and peel/poke it out. Since the mandrel is flexible, it's a heckuva lot easier to remove the boom than if you lay it up over a pool cue (or similar).

Finish using your favorite method. I prefer to butter the whole surface with a coating of West 410 filler and epoxy, mixed to a whipped-cream light consistency. Most of it, of course, gets sanded off. It only stays in the low spots. It sands as easy as Bondo, but stays slightly flexible (won't crack!) and weighs very little.

Presto. Instant tapered tail boom! Can be made from glass, carbon, Kevlar, or some ingenious combination of all three. :)

-Chris

[mlachow]

The World Soaring Masters contest is a no holes barred event, and by being so, are the organizers saying that any type of airframe is off the board. I doubt you see Lackowski fly his Bubble Dancer though, but you never know.

It all depends on the rules. If I can fly any model, any time I want, then there might be conditions where I would fly it. But I would not fly it if I had good reason to expect everyone would make the time in a flight group. Flaps provide a little extra compensation when you need to adjust for that last second or two of time to get the time and landing points.

And who knows, I might fly a bagged model instead of a molded model.

[mlachow]

I wonder if the Helicopter guys have discussions like this. I'll bet they have lots of scratch builders....

[Ray Hayes]

It all depends on the rules. If I can fly any model, any time I want, then there might be conditions where I would fly it. But I would not fly it if I had good reason to expect everyone would make the time in a flight group. Flaps provide a little extra compensation when you need to adjust for that last second or two of time to get the time and landing points.

And who knows, I might fly a bagged model instead of a molded model.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Hayes
The World Soaring Masters contest is a no holes barred event, and by being so, are the organizers saying that any type of airframe is off the board. I doubt you see Lackowski fly his Bubble Dancer though, but you never know.

Actually, I didn't say the above, but no problem.

Ray Hayes

[rdwoebke]

Presto. Instant tapered tail boom! Can be made from glass, carbon, Kevlar, or some ingenious combination of all three. :)

-Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the overview of this. If you build one via this method in the near future, for sure photos would be appreciated! :) The "Badger" posted a pictoral build of a boom on his website, and I have looked at that and thought it was a bit intimidating. :)

Me, I am back to working on my tips for my 2 meter sort of Aegea wing this weekend. Fun stuff!

Ryan

[JustPlaneChris]

If you build one via this method in the near future, for sure photos would be appreciated! :) The "Badger" posted a pictoral build of a boom on his website, and I have looked at that and thought it was a bit intimidating. :)

Ryan, do you have a link? I'd like to see it.

I just finished gluing together the first half of the center section spar for my Genie. Also fun stuff! :D

-Chris

[rdwoebke]

Ryan, do you have a link? I'd like to see it.




http://www.badger.rchomepage.com/rollboom.html

This is the one I was talking about.



I just finished gluing together the first half of the center section spar for my Genie. Also fun stuff! :D

-Chris

Cool. Good luck. I hope to do some kind of 3 meter next winter. I lean towards the Drela designs since I have built 2 already (and am working on a Aegea style wing).

Ryan

[OVSS Boss]

Mike,
I said that, to point out to Gospaderek that any ship is flyable at the WSM's and that you might fly the BD in the right conditions. Actually, two ships are to be allocated and more possible if needed. In doing so the organizers are not saying in any way about how a ship is built and what materials it is made from as long as it is AMA legal. John gets hung up on this us against them battle, ARF Fliers vs. BOM Fliers. When he gets going on this I would love to ask how many balsa trees he has in the yard. Might be tough to grow in Ft. Wayne, but other tropical fauna has been grown in that town.

Marc

[JustPlaneChris]

Thanks for the link, Ryan! Good stuff there.

I think my next project will be a DLG of my own flavor. No doubt I will get inspiration from the Drela designs. I really admire their clever structure and aerodynamic tweaks. Now if there was just some way to design tail feathers for a DLG that don't remind me of a corncob pipe. :rolleyes:

-Chris

[rdwoebke]

Thanks for the link, Ryan! Good stuff there.




Chris,

Yeah, the Badger's website has a lot of cool stuff. I don't know if you clicked the "home" at the bottom, but he also did his version of a Bubble Dancer and a Supra (and other things). Neat stuff and well documented.

What, a guy that made the Corn Dogger does not like tails looking like a corn cob pipe? :)

Ryan