F3A Monoplane

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Here is one of my new creations. Not sure what to call it yet. It should come out about 120-130grams AUW. Can't wait to try this one!!

[Jerry Combs]

Are you going to bring it to MIFF? It looks good!

Jerry

[Malves]

Sweet! Nice job, bro.:)

[Bsouthwell]

Really looks good Jeff! Nice and light!


Bill

[Trisquire]

Nice looking Jeff. Is that an MAE motor on there?

Regards,
Tom

[Aio_1]

Just curious - are the holes in the ailerons there for a specific purpose or because it's the new trend :)!
Did you try the plane before adding them and if so was there any noticable difference in speed and control response when they were added?

[Trisquire]

Jeff,

I just noticed your Team RC Groups forum. Congratulations.

Regards,
Tom

[TRuss]

Will this plane have pull pull ailerons too?

[sadema]

Congratulations, is very beautiful, I present my new design to you from Argentina, "Delirium B".
Greetings

Sergio

[adamg]

Interesting mix of copying other people's ideas and mixing different materials, Sergio.

[Aio_1]

Interesting mix of copying other people's ideas and mixing different materials, Sergio.
Well to be fair who's model isn't "copying other people's ideas"???

[Trisquire]

I'd rather leave the trail blazing to someone else. I'll try it when it's a well established trend.

Tom

[Armin Mangelmann]

@ adam:

who do you mean jeff or sergio? :D

Kr
armin

[Trisquire]

...

[adamg]

Kr, I'm not sure any more.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

The model is not a 100% copy, I have been thinking about this design for a few months, but just now doing it. If you see it in person it is definately different than the Manta, it has counterbalanced ailerons like the Animal, and the whole plane is also larger with a lower aspect ratio wing. I also did away with the SFG's after testing. If you look at the current crop of 2M F3A Pattern planes, they all look very similar, but with a few differences, and they all perform differently.

[Malves]

I think after the Manta with SFGs (or whatever) nobody else will have the right to add it to their homemade designs and not be acused of copycat. :rolleyes:

I don't understand the big deal in "copying" other ppl design.

[Bsouthwell]

Wait a minute guys....we are using depron foam, guess we better go back to balsa now. Bet the El Toro will get some comment due to being a standard layout monoplane (non canard or biplane)...how dare we ...I would hope that the continuing insinuation by Mr. Mangelmann is just competitive "trash talking"...BTW Jeff nice flying at the Memphis event...great talking with you and letting me look your plane over :D some really nice details...original ideas at that.

Bill

[Armin Mangelmann]

well, it is just my opinion in this special case also martins....when i posted the middle motor, jeff wrote, man, that is just what i had in mind for months...

common,

as this could be ever neverending story, i will not repy to this anymore, there cannot be a winner in this situation anyway..so, take care, and keep on developing..

kr
armin

[ChrisBowker]

I realy think all this copying this copying that needs to be left alone. inless you own a patten on it or desgined a canard with anhedral and a foward swept wing using a "flux capacitor"* to fly indoor pattern its prety much a copy/nock off of another desgine some where, some how. if you realy want to tell someone off becasue they stole your desgine maybe a PM would be a good place to do that.

::steps off his soap box::

Chris


*thanks to who ever i stole that from in the other thread... :)

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Armin,
When I said that in response to the Middle-Motor, I never meant to dis-credit all your work on the Vpp middle motor concept. I honestly have been thinking about doing it for about a year. I was basically making a statement that it is interesting that people think alike all over the world. Once I saw your video of the Middle-motor it gave me the inspiration to go ahead and finish what I started! As far as the Manta design. Yes, mine is similar to the Manta, but it is no where near the same! It is larger, different out-line, counter balanced ailerons and elevators, and the list goes on. As I said before if you look at the current crop of 2 meter F3A Pattern planes they all look very similar, but they are each very unique in their own way and perform much different than the next. For example look at these 4 pictures. All F3A pattern planes, all look similar, 4 different companies, and no two perform exactly alike. I have been thinking about the F3P mono design ever since the 2006 ETOC sequence was posted. The sequence has a few snaps, and other manuvers in the sequence that a Bipe doesn't do as well as a monoplane. So, I will be flying a monoplane in the 2006 ETOC.

Jeff Pfeifer

[perttime]

This thing with "copies" and "knock-offs" can be a tricky one. Lots of lawyers make a good living out of it.... I try to stay away from the serious side of it but, out of necessity, I happen to know a tiny bit about it.

It does not take a patent to make a design protected. There are such things as copyright and even "DESIGN MARK". It just takes some distinctive features to earn you a copyright. You do not have to apply for it. You do not even have to state that the copyright belongs to you. What exactly is distinctive, is the tricky part.

Now, some people manage to supplement their living with selling a design, or even selling the physical representations of the design (plans or kits). I say that they deserve any income they get out of their designs. If they decide to give out plans, for better marketing or because they are such good guys, they can.

We should not make direct copies for public distribution, without permission. We might not run into any legal complications, but it would still be unfair, selfish, discourteous.

That is what I think, FWIW.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

BTW,
I did try your or Martin's concept of the canted SFG's, because I wanted to see what the direct effects were on all aspects of flying (Precision, Freestyle, and 3D). I do not have them on the airplane any more as I didn't like the overall effects.

Jeff Pfeifer

[Azarr]

Jeff,

What are using for the "turnbuckle" on the pull pull ailerons. Is it a pre fabricated piece or is it something you're making. It looks like a turned button or pulley of some sort.

Also, from the pictures it appears the pull pull has quite a severe angle from the time it leaves the turnbuckle until it reaches the control horn. Is there not a problem with it slipping off the edge of the turnaround? Is it just the tension that keeps it from slipping off?

Yes, I'm planning on "borrowing" this idea from whoever invented it. A really light way of getting pull pull aileron with one servo.

FWIW: Copywrite is not unheard of in the modeling industry. Back in the last century, in the US, Jim Walker invented and copywrote the name "U-Control" Any company the produced a control line type plane either had to use something else to describe their system or pay him royalties.

Azarr
www.ecubedrc.com

[Tim H.]

Boy, this "copying" issue never dies does it. George Hicks and I were the first people here in the states to do any sort of Flat foam designs. I'll be the first to admit, I got my inspiration from the Europeans (I still do...) Now, every company on the planet has flat foam designs (many that look VERY similar to my designs, especially the 3DX)

I offered plans for over a year and a half before anybody kitted any of these, and I've never said Boo... Neither has George hicks. If anybody has any problem with my statements, I invite you to do some searches here on Ezone. There was the Tribute, the 3DX, then EVERYTHING else (barring the European stuff of course). My Yak 54 was the FIRST foamie Yak 54, even before the Shockie Yak. Now there are about 30 different Yaks.

I could probably, honestly say that I am one of the driving forces behind the entire US indoor/foamie 3D market. The 3DX probably introduced more people to foamie 3D than any other design. Have I made much $$? No... do I whine about it, no... Have I fallen behind the "cutting edge", yes...

It's a construction method... plane and simple. I've said this before, there are only so many ways to put together a wing, tail, and fuselage and call it an airplane. The devil is in the details. Moments, areas, shape, etc. Good ideas will be copied, that's the nature of the beast... The problem comes when someone calls it an "original" or takes credit for a design (weather it's a construction method, or aerodynamic enhancement).

If nobody used any body elses' good ideas (I'm not talking copies, I'm talking evolution) we'd all still be driving Fords and flying Wright flyers. I never put SFG's on any of my planes just because I didn't want to hear "Oh my G.... You copied sos and so's idea.... Oh my G.... you copyer.... Oh whine, whine, whine...

Ya know what I've noticed over the last 4 years of designing foamies... The only people that whine about copying are the ones that aren't designing...

My 2 cents...

Tim H.

[Aio_1]

Tim,

Thanks for the sanity!

Aidan

[Bsouthwell]

Very well put Tim!


Bill

[Malves]

Amem!

[Tim H.]

Thanks guys...

My overall driving force behind everything I do is FUN! If it's not fun, why do it? This segment of the hobby is growing by leaps and bounds! That's what it is all about. Introducing the hobby to more and more people. The future is bright, the components are getting cheaper, and venues are opening up all the time.

This is one of the areas that it doesn't cost $5000.000 to be competative. I think that's GREAT! I'm also working on a few construction methods that I know will be copied if they are successful. So what... More planes to pick from...

Tim

[Malves]

Thanks guys...

My overall driving force behind everything I do is FUN! If it's not fun, why do it? This segment of the hobby is growing by leaps and bounds! That's what it is all about. Introducing the hobby to more and more people.

Yes, but it looks like there a couple of guys here (or is it over there? ;) ) that think ppl should pay first, before they try something new. :rolleyes:

[Tim H.]

Lol...

[can773]

Armin,
When I said that in response to the Middle-Motor, I never meant to dis-credit all your work on the Vpp middle motor concept. I honestly have been thinking about doing it for about a year. I was basically making a statement that it is interesting that people think alike all over the world. Once I saw your video of the Middle-motor it gave me the inspiration to go ahead and finish what I started! As far as the Manta design. Yes, mine is similar to the Manta, but it is no where near the same! It is larger, different out-line, counter balanced ailerons and elevators, and the list goes on. As I said before if you look at the current crop of 2 meter F3A Pattern planes they all look very similar, but they are each very unique in their own way and perform much different than the next. For example look at these 4 pictures. All F3A pattern planes, all look similar, 4 different companies, and no two perform exactly alike. I have been thinking about the F3P mono design ever since the 2006 ETOC sequence was posted. The sequence has a few snaps, and other manuvers in the sequence that a Bipe doesn't do as well as a monoplane. So, I will be flying a monoplane in the 2006 ETOC.

Jeff Pfeifer


Jeff,

Using pattern as an example for not copying is a bad idea :)

The Twister for instance....Enigma stab, Oxalys wings...only change is the fuse appearance, moments etc are basically all the same. I know because I had input on the Twister's final revision....and after seeing how CPLR flew the Oxalys in France with the wind there was no doubt his wing design is good....so why reinvent the wheel...use it. The Lazulite, Brio etc all have roots in past models (Larimar, Smaragd, Partner). All the designs fly very similar, they have to as we are all trying to do the same thing...the differences are very subtle.

Copy what works...who really cares. Just please quit copying the flat fuse shocky....someone please start copying the full fuse models :) I am in desperate need of a change from the flat fuse X brace models.

Chad Northeast

[Aio_1]

Copy what works...who really cares. Just please quit copying the flat fuse shocky....someone please start copying the full fuse models :) I am in desperate need of a change from the flat fuse X brace models...
Yeah!
I want a full fuselage monoplane and I've seen nothing I want to closely copy. I might have to do some thinking for myself which is a shame.:D
I'll post a thread when I design/build it. Probably later this week. There'll be plans if you want them but I'm not a good enough pilot to properly test the design so you'll have to judge it based on the aesthetics!:)

It'll be based on:
Motor: MicroREX220/6-1400 (21g)
Cells: 3s TP480 prolites (34g)
Prop: GWS 7x3.5DD
ESC: Phoenix 10 (6g)
Rx: ACT Pico 4 (4.5g)
Servos: 3 of whatever's spare (~15g)

I'll aim for about 190g with that gear so probably ~950mm span
Haven't decided yet between realistic, F3A or abstract styling.

Aidan

P.S.
Perhaps I'll start a thread now for suggestions and if I like them I'll use them!

[perttime]

Yes, but it looks like there a couple of guys here (or is it over there? ;) ) that think ppl should pay first, before they try something new. :rolleyes:There seems to be several different ways to see this. There are people over here and over there who design original stuff, to some extent based on what others have done before. A design is property of the designer and the designer can distribute, or not, the design as (s)he wishes.

Some people, over here and over there, distribute their stuff for a price.
Some people, over here and over there, distribute their stuff for free.
Some people, over here and over there, have some combination of the two.

I cannot assume (ass out of u and me) that somebody wants their stuff distributed and copied for free, without their OK.

Can we discuss something more cheerful? Anybody have any unique twists?

[flypaper 2]

This is something I've been playing with. Sort of foam angle irons. Does away with the horizontal fuse. piece. No tail twist whatsoever. Came out fairly light. dental floss flying, landing wires. 30 in. span. 6.5 oz W.O. batt.

[Peter D Rieden]

There seems to be several different ways to see this. There are people over here and over there who design original stuff, to some extent based on what others have done before. A design is property of the designer and the designer can distribute, or not, the design as (s)he wishes.

Some people, over here and over there, distribute their stuff for a price.
Some people, over here and over there, distribute their stuff for free.
Some people, over here and over there, have some combination of the two.

I cannot assume (ass out of u and me) that somebody wants their stuff distributed and copied for free, without their OK.

Can we discuss something more cheerful? Anybody have any unique twists?

Now look - I invented this whole idea of whining about copying. I'm gonna be trawling back through this thread and counting up all those who have copied my idea, and my lawyers will be in touch. It's $10 per whine guys...

PDR