The El Toro

[Bsouthwell]

Well I got busy and designed my first F3P plane. It looks to be 6 oz or just under that. I have to run the pull-pull and install the landing gear. I wound the 18 gram 20mm motor today and it screams on two cells! I hope to maiden it in the next few days and fly it at the Memphis EAC event (non competitively). I can't wait to see how it will do.

Bill

[Malves]

Looks good, bro.:) Huge ailerons!:eek:

[Bsouthwell]

Thanks! Thank goodness for expo! I ran the wing loading and it looks like 2.6 oz per sq ft. A little heavy but for a first shot, it should fly slower than anything I have flown yet. Hows your bird coming?


Bill

[Malves]

That's gonna take sometime to be done. I have to print the plans and start cutting, but I am having so much fun (finally not crashing anymore!) with my Slick, that I won't bother until the weekend.:D
This upcoming Saturday we will have a meeting at a local indoor field for some flights.:) It'll be my first time flying indoors and I am really excited about it. I started flying September last year, and some guys think I won't be able to make it indoors. But they are in for a surprise.;)

[Bsouthwell]

I finally got access to a gym.....The walls sure do come up fast! :D A friend of mine has a Slick and loves it. What do you power your Slick with? Indoors is a lot more fun than I had imagined.


Bill

[Malves]

A small GBv 23T. Don't know the weight, but it's lite.:) It turns a 9x5HD on 2s. But I think I'll move up to 3s. I am not very happy with the performance/endurance on 2s, even thou I think it may be the cold. Plus I bought this battery used.
For the Breeze (my new plane), I'll be using a Park 300, thou.

I fly only outdoors with my 140g Slick. I just love it! But it has some weak points on the fuse that I reinforced with carbon. Good thing is that at only 5oz, there's very little inertia to make it brake during a crash. Mine's going strong after 30 flights and a few "mistakes" here and there.:) Morning flights are my favorites since there's no wind, but midday flights help to improve the reflexes when the wind picks up - shaky, but still fun.;)

[Bsouthwell]

My buddy says all he has to do is chop the throttle and it just stops and settles down......floats like a feather....but when the wind picks up he puts it in the truck...says he has had to chase it before....

I am putting a park 300 on a friends Yak XL that I built him and I am impressed with the package. has all the hardware you could ask for and is pretty light to boot. The bushing for the GWS 8X4 DD prop is really nice. really runs true. Look forward to your flight report on the Breeze.


Bill

[Bsouthwell]

Well I got a surprise when I put the finished airplane on the scale....150 grams RTF!!!!! I over estimated the wt of the landing gear so it came out better than I thought. If I got it right, 5.29 oz with 294 sq in wing area = 2.59 oz sq ft. I can live with that for now! :D

Now to see if it flies............


Bill

[Malves]

Good Luck, bro!:)

[MKH]

Really nice looking! What are the span and length? Great proportions, and I like the spattered paint look. Is it all 3mm foam? Very nice.
MKH

[Bsouthwell]

Thanks! Its 35' span and 34" length, 3mm except for the nose section. I just didn't like 3mm on the nose, a little to flimsy for my flying.:D I figured the spatters would be minimal paint but give it a little color.


Bill

[Bsouthwell]

Well the El Toro has been test flown! I got in a few circles in inside a very small gym two nights before I left for the EAC event in Memphis. It felt really smooth and stable but could not tell much else in the small room I had available. Off we went to Memphis. I had great fortune to let several very talented pilots fly the plane Friday and Saturday. It made me proud! It was awsome to see what the plane was capable of...I couldn't stop smiling! It got the thumbs up.

I got to fly it Saturday while the pilots were in the pre-contest meeting. It feels like a 2 meter pattern ship in slow motion, no coupling, locked in, its linear in its response power on and off, it feels the same at high and low speed. It will freestyle on high rates but still feels totally locked in. I have not flown a nicer flying foamie. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes!

[3dflyindan]

is there going to be any plans?

thanks

dan

[Devin McGRath]

Bill,

I was at the EAC event and was able to take a look at your design it looks great. I also saw it fly I am not sure who was flying it but it looked really stable. Good work!



Devin McGrath

[Bsouthwell]

Thanks Devin!

Congrats on the Third place finish....Those mile long tailslides had everyone's jaw dropping. Great flying! I really liked the details on your planes... some really good ideas. AC said you really put in a lot of time building your planes..it shows :D.

Bill

[perttime]

(Off topic mode)
is there going to be any plans?
Recently, I have seen some heated discussions about plans that resemble existing (possibly commercial) designs. I have absolutely no claims of design (or flying) proficiency. My next plane will be based on an existing design, maybe more than one. It will not be identical with any design that I know of. Plans will not be available.

Things would be more interesting if everybody built stuff with some unique twists.
(/Off topic mode)

[3dflyindan]

what you use to make your plans as CAD is soo dear especially for a 15 year old?

dan

[Devin McGRath]

Bill,

Thank you very much, I look forward to flying with you again.

Devin McGrath
www.devinrocks.com

[Aio_1]

what you use to make your plans as CAD is soo dear especially for a 15 year old?

dan

That's true. It's easy for those of us who have an engineering background and access to draughting software but commercial software like AutoCAD and Solidworks is too expensive to buy for personal use. There are cut down versions of some of these which may be an option and there may also be some freeware about that will do the job.
I think there's software called TurboCAD which is pretty cheap. I think it should be okay for 2D plans but I've never used it myself so I'm not sure.

[Bsouthwell]

The El Toro layout came from a 2 meter design I have been working on for over a year close to two years now. I work in CAD, TurboCad is the program I use. It can be found on the web very cheap $$ wise and does a lot for the money.


The copy cat issue is always a sore spot but really everything that gets designed has been done before to some degree. I have always designed my own planes and have looked at thousands of plans and designs, both full scale and models, and draw on the ideas on every design. The box is only so big and you can't get to far out of it design wise as there are very narrow design goals. There are more things that won't work, than things that will....so you see very similar designs doing the same thing.

Bill

[Aio_1]

....TurboCad is the program I use. It can be found on the web very cheap $$ wise and does a lot for the money....
...beat you to it by under a minute!:D
Glad to know it will do the job!

[3dflyindan]

i do engineering at college and they have AutoCad if i was able to use this in my own time do you think that would be ok? one problem is how do you design on it i know how to do engineers drawings but how do you work out w.s length etc ?

many thanks

dan

[Aio_1]

i do engineering at college and they have AutoCad if i was able to use this in my own time do you think that would be ok? one problem is how do you design on it i know how to do engineers drawings but how do you work out w.s length etc ?...
Yes AutoCAD is ideal. That's what I usually use.
The drawing is the easy bit. Deciding what to draw is where the real talent lies!

To be perfectly honest most of the designing process is about deciding what looks right within certain criteria. Anyone who tells you their design is based on complex aerodynamics etc is probably talking rubbish (unless they're Mark Drela, Michael Selig or Martin Hepperle!). The most useful way to design this type of plane is by looking at what's known to work with regard to wing loading, dimensions, power and CG and then experiment from there.
If you're not sure what will work try basing it on the proportions of an existing design.

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask (probably best to set up a new thread). I can help you with getting a stable and flyable plane. Some of the more specific items with respect to indoor pattern planes might be better answered by others.

Aidan

[3dflyindan]

making a how-to make plans thread now :D

dan

[Bsouthwell]

I have always used the TLAR method. That Looks About Right! I use the design, cut and try method. It will teach you a lot. Autocad will work just fine!

There are some good design aids on the web. Here are a few:

http://adamone.rchomepage.com/cg2_calc.htm

http://www.coloradogliders.com/tools.htm

http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/cg_super_calc.htm

http://airfieldmodels.com/information_source/math_and_science_of_model_aircraft/rc_aircraft_design/step_by_step_model_aircraft_design.htm

http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html

Hope that helps!
Bill

[Bsouthwell]

Aidan,

You hit the nail on the head! :D

Bill

[3dflyindan]

they help a lot thanks please post your thought in the how-to i made please

dan

[DownInFlames]

Nice plane the name dosn't quite fit the paint job. Maybe, " the little flower " or " paintball " would be better. Some nice bullhorns across the wings would be cool.

[Bsouthwell]

LOL!! The name came way before the color scheme :D I based the name on my 2 meter design the "Bully"...I scaled the 2m meter drawing down with some minor tweeks to come up with the "El' Toro" design. As far as the paint, the idea was based loosely on the Mat Chapman scheme...I just didn't want to add too much paint. I have several El' Toro's I am building with a more conventional "pattern plane" style color scheme. They will be in the 4.5 oz wt. range. I'll post some pictures when they are done.

Bill

[aglenn]

Here are pics of my new El Toro.Bill litterally just dropped it off at my house.I will let Bill tell everyone about the plane.(thanks again Bill)I also included one picture of the prototype after its demo flight at the ETOC.

[Bsouthwell]

I just got home from delivering the second El Toro to AC. It's lighter (5 oz)than the 1st one, even with a heavier motor and quite a bit more paint applied. With a CD Rom motor and a 350 mh pack it would be in at 4.5oz easy. Have fun AC! Awaiting a flight report :D

Bill

[3dflyindan]

me too lol

[aglenn]

Will not be one till close to rcx.I dont want to fly it outside.

[Bsouthwell]

I tried some thing new on this El Toro. I have seen several ideas for drag generation, from flat plates, holes of all shapes, canted side force generators etc. but I wanted to come up with my own method (and not a patented german or european method either :D). My theory is that a flat plate makes a rolling single mass of air in say a flat plate fixed 90 deg to the trailing edge...sort of like a wave or rolling ball of air. Now with the drag generators for lack of a better name at the present, you get the air forced thru narrowing gates that create turbulent streams aft of the fences not just a rolling "log" of air...much like VG on full scale aircraft. the VG's energize the air and the by product should be drag. The hope is that the roll rate may go up some and the airspeed down some...the test flights should show if there is merit to the idea or not. Nice thing is if it does not work the fences can be trimmed flush and the holes will be filled. The whole thing may have been too much or too little coffee!

In any case I have been encouraged enough with performance of several of my designs that I am working on producing kits. I hope to be up and going in a month or so.

Regards
Bill

[MKH]

In any case I have been encouraged enough with performance of several of my designs that I am working on producing kits. I hope to be up and going in a month or so. Regards Bill

Excellent! Any changes to the original dimensions, or have they worked out? Length and span is what I mean. If the same wing area, that's the lightest monoplane of this size I've seen.
MKH

[Bsouthwell]

Thanks! The demensions are the same as the prototype. I changed the carbon size as it was a bit overbuilt for indoor. I see a few things to get it lighter but haven't tried them to verify it yet.

Regards
Bill

[Devin McGRath]

wow looks great!!!! I like the paint job



Devin McGrath
www.devinrocks.com

[aglenn]

A little flight report.This morning I flew the airplane in a gym and was really suprised at the performance of the airplane.With the first one with it being the heaviest of the two it did some of the 3d stuff a little better but with this lighter one i was able to do alot of pattern manuvers.Also the airplane still excelled in the 3d arena.The only problem that i ran into was in knife edge the airplane required more power to keep the tail from falling not a big problem but will be corrected.I believe i had the CG a little far back.With having flown the original one of three cells i tried this one on two cells and i was able to get through the F3a-i sequence.I does not have the power with the two cell to do all out 3d stuff.I believe this airframe is the best one i have flown in terms of precision and it is the lightest thing I have flown 3d with.Thanks again bill for the great airframe.Look forward to the kits.

[Bryan Davison]

Bsouthwell, I noticed on that plane that you didnt put the speedbrake/spoiler type things sticking up out of the ailerons...did it not work correctly, or was it a time issue. Do those little things slow it down?

[Bsouthwell]

Hi Bryan,

I did put the drag system on the plane just above. Click on the pictures above and look at the trailing edge of the ailerons at the tips. From AC's testing it appears to work well. He said the plane is a lot slower on down lines and he gained quite a margin in the pull-out when doing a full roll on a down line. It flies at a more constant speed up or down now.

Bill

[Bsouthwell]

Thanks Devin!

Bill