F3P-AM "nose tapping"

[Jurgen Heilig]

The new mid motor VPP designs for F3P-AM (AeroMusicals) allow for new exciting maneuvers, like "nose tapping". Safety concerns about rudder and/or servo damage do not apply here. ;)

Check the sample picture, or watch some video:

http://www.indoorpylon.de/videos/mimoyak.wmv

:) Jürgen

[Jeff Pfeifer]

You're right the mid-motor setup for VPP is the way to go. Not only do you protect the motor/ pitch system. The plane is much more stable during the vpp manuvers such as nose down torque rolls, and you can touch the nose to the ground and not hurt a thing!! Jurgen, do you have any video other than the ones of Armin, and Sasha? I would like to see what others are doing. So far in the US I think I am the only one so far that has done the Middle-motor thing, but I maybe wrong.

[fwilly]

So far in the US I think I am the only one so far that has done the Middle-motor thing, but I maybe wrong.

Are you going to have that at OKC? I would love to see at set up like that in person.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Yes I will have it at OKC, but will not use it in the freestyle. I have to get used to it a bit more, and still messing with the power system a bit.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Oh, did I forget to mention you can also take off backwards! He he

[Dan Landis]

Jeff are you going to have it in Memphis?

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Hopefully, If I can keep it in one piece that long! lol

[Trisquire]

Maybe mid-motor is the way to go even for non-VPP. It puts one of the heaviest components right at the CG.

Tom

[Jurgen Heilig]

...
Jurgen, do you have any video other than the ones of Armin, and Sasha? I would like to see what others are doing. ...


Already uploading video clips from Manuel Nübel and Steffen Dengler - two pilots who used VPP to qualify for the German Indoor Championship 2006 F3P-AM class.

:) Jürgen

[airmcn_3]

Yes I will have it at OKC, but will not use it in the freestyle. I have to get used to it a bit more, and still messing with the power system a bit.


The cats out of the Bag!!! See you here! Later Chris

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Trisquire,
I haven't tried a non-vpp setup on a middlemotor plane yet, but you still have a heavy componet near the nose, the battery. Since the motor is now in the middle you have to move the battery to the nose to balance properly.

JP

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Already uploading video clips from Manuel Nübel and Steffen Dengler - two pilots who used VPP to qualify for the German Indoor Championship 2006 F3P-AM class.

:) Jürgen

What site will they be on?

[Trisquire]

Trisquire,
I haven't tried a non-vpp setup on a middlemotor plane yet, but you still have a heavy componet near the nose, the battery. Since the motor is now in the middle you have to move the battery to the nose to balance properly.

JP
Jeff, I see your point. No benefit there.

Tom

[Jurgen Heilig]

Here are two videos from pilots using VPP mid motors for F3P-AM:

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/F3P-AM-Steffen.wmv

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/F3P-AM_Manuel.wmv

:) Jürgen

[3d_Crazy]

Trisquire,
I haven't tried a non-vpp setup on a middlemotor plane yet, but you still have a heavy componet near the nose, the battery. Since the motor is now in the middle you have to move the battery to the nose to balance properly.

JP


Unless you move the wing back to the center of the plane. ;) Just not sure how that would affect performance.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Manuel's video works, but the other doesn't.

[Jurgen Heilig]

Manuel's video works, but the other doesn't.

Try again. ;)

:) Jürgen

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Thanks Jurgen for posting those videos. I just wish I could find a way to make the model more quiet for vpp with the middle motor. Mine sounds the same way as Manuel, and Steffan's... like it's going to explode! lol Oh well might just be one of those things that might take some time to get used to.

[airmcn_3]

Thanks Jurgen for posting those videos. I just wish I could find a way to make the model more quiet for vpp with the middle motor. Mine sounds the same way as Manuel, and Steffan's... like it's going to explode! lol Oh well might just be one of those things that might take some time to get used to.


Hey Jeff, do you think its just the placement of the motor and the fact that it can resonant through the bird equally? might be due to the fact that on the nose it has some time to dampen the resonant frequency before it reaches larger parts of the bird to make it humm. just food for thought......

[Jeff Pfeifer]

Since we're on the subject of VPP. As a Safety Tip. Check your Firewall to make sure it is secure after and before every flight! These VPP setups can do alot of damage when they are in idle up. Also make sure if you are going to run the motor up and check your pitch and throttle curves, that you keep the arc of the prop far away from your face, and the rest of your body just incase something comes apart like a pitch servo breaking loose, or if you overspeed the motor you could possibly throw a blade grip....ect. When I set my pitch and throttle curves at home, I actually take two large cooking pots and weigh them down with any thing I can find to put in them, then I place them in front of the wing(one on each side of the fuselage), and then I take two more and place behind the wing in the same fashion, so the plane is secure. Then I step about 10 feet away and then I start running the motor up and adjusting the pitch and throttle curves from the radio. When Vpp first came out I was not as catious as I am now and I did have a pitch servo break loose and my hand some how ended up in the prop and cut the hell out of it. It was borderline bad enough to have stitches, but I just pushed everything back together and started gluing myself back together with foamsafe CA and Kicker! I don't want this to happen to anyone else. I was lucky, this could have been an eye or done alot more damage! So please be careful using a VPP setup.

[Jeff Pfeifer]

I believe it is because of the tips of the prop are turning at a very high rate of speed and with the motor in the middle the tips of the prop are passing very close to the edge of the prop cut out in the plane (within 3mm) so you get a bit of noise similar to a ducted fan.

[airmcn_3]

I believe it is because of the tips of the prop are turning at a very high rate of speed and with the motor in the middle the tips of the prop are passing very close to the edge of the prop cut out in the plane (within 3mm) so you get a bit of noise similar to a ducted fan.

LOL or THAT!!! :p ;) :D

[Trisquire]

I'm wondering if the next logical step is to mount "tail surfaces" on the nose of the plane so that you can actually control the nose-down hover indefinitely. God only knows what that would do to the plane's normal flight characteristics.

Tom

[Jeff Pfeifer]

working on it!

[Jurgen Heilig]

I'm wondering if the next logical step is to mount "tail surfaces" on the nose of the plane so that you can actually control the nose-down hover indefinitely. God only knows what that would do to the plane's normal flight characteristics.

Tom

That has already been done. ;)

You can use a mixer to ensure that the "forward mounted control surfaces" are only active in thrust reverse mode. Another problem with VPP flying backwards is the tendency of your normal control surfaces not staying in neutral position. ;)

:) Jürgen

[Jurgen Heilig]

Another teaser to show what you can do with mid motor VPP:

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/VPP_Manuel.wmv

:) Jürgen

[airmcn_3]

Another teaser to show what you can do with mid motor VPP:

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/VPP_Manuel.wmv

:) Jürgen


:D :D you guys are crazy!!!

[Trisquire]

That has already been done. ;)

You can use a mixer to ensure that the "forward mounted control surfaces" are only active in thrust reverse mode. Another problem with VPP flying backwards is the tendency of your normal control surfaces not staying in neutral position. ;)

:) Jürgen
You would also need an "all flying wing" or tiperons so that they would work in both directions of travel.

Tom

[Devin McGRath]

That is awesome time to stop building my VPP plane and wait a little wile and make one like this....


Devin McGrath
www.devinrocks.com

[Jurgen Heilig]

You would also need an "all flying wing" or tiperons so that they would work in both directions of travel.

Tom

Even the normal control surfaces work - provided the plane moves. ;)

:) Jürgen

[Trisquire]

Even the normal control surfaces work - provided the plane moves. ;)

:) Jürgen
Ah...........I'm over complicating things.

Tom

[Pjotrrr]

Another way to make a more quiet midmotordesign is to use a double tail (like a P-38)....

[Jurgen Heilig]

Another way to make a more quiet midmotordesign is to use a double tail (like a P-38)....

But it might still be noisier than a standard setup and it would not roll as fast. ;)

:) Jürgen

[kepople]

http://kepople.rchomepage.com/images/vario.wmv
heres a video of Jeff Pfieffer flying the Variable prop and doing nose touches, and some really crazy stuff...

Kirby

[mc71]

The noise sounds like the same ripping noise you hear from a pusher prop when it is mounted too close to the back of the plane. Without cutting the area away from in front of the prop I don't think you can get rid of it.

Matt

[ChrisBowker]

IMO the sound they make is the worst, the first time i flew my vpp set up i thought the plane was going to rip it self apart.

Chris

[alenys]

Hi All,

just wanted to announce that Horizon Hobby will soon be selling the Mamo-Models Upside down sytstem exclusively in the US. It is a great unit easy to set up and the best part it does not require a hollow shaft motor. It will include two set of blades 8" & 9" and will also be selling replacement parts. The most common to replace are (2) 2mm x 12mm screws that are sold by Du-bro in a pack of four. I am actually able to touch the blades on the ground and back up, in case of crashing the worst is a new set of blades and bolts that take almost no time to replace. You can see a video of my Yak flying at E-fest on Flying giants covarage from the E-fest. It is the white window labeled video on red letters. Also my E-flite prototipe Byp Yak is using that system on my flight on the E-contest.

Thanks.

Enjoy!!!

Angelo Lomeli.

[Devin McGRath]

I was able to see your set up in person at the E-fest and it looks cool the but I couldn't tell exactly how it gets attached to an existing motor does it just screw onto a shaft?


Devin McGrath

[alenys]

Hi Devin,

the system includes an aluminum hub that uses a set screw to hold it in place. I will try to load a picture of the system mounted in a Byp Yak.

Thanks.

[Devin McGRath]

cool thanks

[Ben-Solo]

i think i have been watching heli's flying with wings lol!

i seen some nice vvp in person at one of my local indoor meets! i agree makes a horrid noise! makes you wanna scream!

just a quick question i have been trying to neaten up on my rooling circles how do eevryone do them as i cnt find much information

great work guys keep it up!

:p

[Jurgen Heilig]

...
i seen some nice vvp in person at one of my local indoor meets! i agree makes a horrid noise! makes you wanna scream!
...
:p

The awful noise is not mandatory. Some guys use VPP and you don't even notice it, until they stop in mid-air. ;)

Have a look at Martin Müller's or Dennis Horn's F3P-AM flights.

:) Jürgen

[Ben-Solo]

VVP is actualy a good safety tool too! as my indoor meets include heli's mostly t-rexs etc...

things get a bit hairy and i have seen alot of close prox flying!

its great to see a foam model get shredded to bits (well crashing is sometimes part of the fun :))but its even more impressive when they stop dead before hitting a model!

its just crazy

[alenys]

Tell me about it. I have actually done that...................stopped to avoid a mid-air it is FUN!!!

[3dflyindan]

just a few of questions:

-what vpp system were they usin ?
-what plane was manuel flying ?
-some instructions of how you mount the motor in the middle please?
-is the blade got a piece of casing around it like the outer piece of DF?
-can i use a normal motor and fly normal lke this ?

many thanks people

dan